Why people don't give a shit about Fukishima.

[Safetykitten]

Because the outcome is too horrible to comprehend. Japan has nowhere to go. They are stuck on an island, and the government and the utility will do anything to downplay this nightmare. People here don't give a shit because the ocean is big and we are far away.

We will have a radioactive Pacific, and at this rate of poisoning with no end, and within years the entire Pacific will be contaminated. But until then, it will be completely downplayed by all media, and our media will not address it, as it directly affects us. Only when we are swimming in a radioactive Pacific and cannot eat anything out of it, then people will care.

I was a nuclear power advocate until this catastrophe. This event will probably poison the planet.

[nebenaube]

1. The denial surrounding this event is profound.

This mess is so bad I am surprised they haven't cratered the whole site. You know, vaporize a chamber below it and blow all the edges in to bury the whole mess.

[Nay]

4. Yeah -- as in my post below, it's worrisome that we don't see a dissection of the

problem, a discussion of solutions like burying, etc. It leads me to think that the PTB see no solution, and have just tried to hush it up.

[elehhhhna]

78. no solution or no affordable solution? austerity etc.

[Nay]

81. Well, there's 'affordable' and then there's 'can't afford not to do it, no matter what the

cost in $$$.'

I think Fukishima is in the latter category.

[Cirque du So-What]

2. It will poison the planet

Many people don't take time to consider that the oceans are all connected, so it won't be just a problem in the Pacific.

[kardonb]

85. fukushima

Halleluya , the " sky is falling again " crowd has found another boulder to fuss about . Don't you folks ever get tired of looking at the dark side , instead of looking for the sunshine of actual SOLUTIONS ?

[lark]

87. I think that's unnecessarily harsh and also inaccurate.

Why would you even say that - just trying to get a reaction? Read all the posts on this thread where burying this mess is recommended or suggested several times. I doubt we have many nuclear engineers on board to make recommendtions that would actually work and not make things worse.


What would you recommend? Are you a nuclear engineer?

[truedelphi]

206. The nuke power field is awash in money.

Our beloved leader has promised the industry some 58 billions of dollars. And he touts it as a "clean industry" and renewable energy resource!

Our media is very tightly controlled. With NBC, MSNBC both owned by GE, why would they tell us the truth about the nuclear situation and the radiation that started blanketing the West Coast within days of the Fukushima disaster?

[sulphurdunn]

223. The problem was created

by nuclear engineers.

[One_Life_To_Give]

247. IMO Non-Engineer, non-technical mangement and stockholders created it.

Engineers and other Technical Specialists had identified the problems and solutions. Non-technical people decided that the funding to mitigate was not necessary. The following quotes attributed to Hyman Rickover seem appropriate.

"Our senior employees have been schooled in this 'new' philosophy
which holds that, as long as a person is well-versed in a few simple
rules of how to handle people and situations, he need not know
anything about the details of the programs he is managing or the
increasingly sophisticated technologies on which many of these
programs are based. This has allowed the non-professional to
achieve high status and high pay within the government. If trouble
erupts, they can then blame those beneath them or those who
preceded them. Until this false concept is rooted out of the federal
government, we cannot expect the American people to retain their
trust in government. In fact, they should not."

Responsibility -
"Along with Ownership comes the need for full acceptance of full
responsibility for the work. Shared responsibility means that no
one is responsible. Unless one person who is truly responsible
can be identified when something goes wrong, then no one has
really been responsible."

[sulphurdunn]

249. I like the quote from Rickover.

The rest sounds too much like a Nuremberg defense and seems to be increasingly common, especially when investigating wealth and power. Whether or not blame can be determined, the cause of a problem should be ascertained from the sequence of events leading up to it and then remedied. The bigger and more catastrophic the failure, the less likely that is to be. Indeed, the less likely will the causes of the failure be admitted. Regarding the state of contemporary nuclear power industry, I think the solution is to begin ending it now.

[cui bono]

226. +1 It was also insulting and childish and not conducive to the positive discussion

that poster claims to desire.

[cui bono]

227. You mean like the sunshine of your post?

[JDPriestly]

231. And what might be the solution to Fukushima?

It has been over two years now and we are only just learning how bad the situation really is and has been all along. So what "are the SOLUTION?"

[Theyletmeeatcake2]

245. What's your solution

Einstein?

[MynameisBlarney]

88. Indeed.

And the 80 million gallons of Corexit that were pumped into the Gulf after the Horizon disaster will be spreading it's love around the world as well.

[Nay]

3. What disturbs me is that there is no world-wide mobilization of countries to help

Japan deal with the radiation, cleanup, etc. It's not so hard to believe that everyday people "don't give a shit" (although I think they do) because there is nothing everyday people can DO about Fukishima. However, it IS worrisome that there is no world effort, led by governments and humanitarians, to shut down the plant and try to clean up the mess.

It is also worrisome that the media is downplaying it -- it makes people believe that there is no action that can be taken that hasn't already been taken, and the situation is insolvable. I have seen no informative articles on what has been done, what remains to be done, etc., and I'm a fairly big news junkie.

[Octafish]

8. I've tried to make up for lack of news coverage, using DU as a news medium...

A Public Service Announcement about Plutonium

TEPCO - Plutonium is not dangerous. Where is the Boss?

Fukushima, Plutonium, CIA, and the BFEE: Deep Doo-Doo Four Ways to Doomsday

Before and After photo show significant tsunami damage...

On the Poet's Trail

Helicopter pictures show devastation inside Fukushima reactor towers

Governments Covering Up Nuclear Meltdowns for 50 Years to Protect the Nuclear Power Industry

Surviving Chernobyl Cleaner: 'Tell The People Of Japan To Run!'

What part of what he said wasn't true?

First thing I'd do if I were fighting this nuclear disaster is get the Team the best gear.

The Return of Nukespeak

TEPCO - Plutonium is not dangerous. Where's the Boss?

Toxic plutonium seeping from Japan's nuclear plant

Japan's Nuclear Rescuers: 'Inevitable Some of Them May Die Within Weeks'

Fukushima from Space

Absolutely. A real shame - man's hubris.

Japan Nuclear Power Plants

A more-recent satellite image of Fukushima Daiichi reactors 1-4...

The SCALE of the devastation is incredible.

Jimmy Carter, USN - Nuclear Hero

Utility Engineer Warned of Tsunami Threat at Japanese Nuclear Plant

Voyage to Fukushima Daiichi

TEPCO was warned and took the cheapskate's way out.

Fukushima owners failed to follow emergency manual - report

The people's ancestors left monuments to remind them of the dangers...

Fukushima tsunami plan a single page

Doubts deepen over TEPCO truthfulness after president's sightseeing trip uncovered

Atomic Samurai -IAEA Humbled By Worker Courage at Fukushima Daiichi

Fukushima Radiation Data Quarantined by Governments of Japan and the United States. Why?

Absolutely. And some, if not most, cancer deaths can be avoided with forewarning and knowledge.

''We never meant to conceal the information, but it never occurred to us to make it public.''

Fukushima Daiichi Mystery Man Steps Forward

The Fukushima Crisis Demonstrates how Lowly the Global Elites Hold the Common People

Plutonium detected 40km from Fukushima plant

Trivializing Fukushima

''We never meant to conceal the information, but it never occurred to us to make it public.''

In regards to Fukushima, the only thing TEPCO has successfully buried is the Truth.

TEPCO was warned and took the cheapskate's way out.

Trivializing Fukushima

Citizen Testing Finds 20 Radioactive Hot Spots Around Tokyo

Japan Fukushima plant dismantling needs over 30 yrs

Fukushima Typhoon raising radioactive water levels in contaminated buildings.

Fukushima owners failed to follow emergency manual - report

Fukushima and the Nuclear Establishment - The Big Lies Fly High

[think]

10. Thanks for all the effort and links

Much appreciated.

[Safetykitten]

12. Agree!

[Cleita]

15. As a person who lives 15 miles downwind from a nuke plant

that should be decommissioned I will keep this.

[G_j]

16. excellent

[zeemike]

26. Wow, you sure have.

And I am proud you are here on this board doing that great work...
I have only seen a fraction of those posts, but the ones I did see was enough to convince me.

[ancianita]

31. Wow. Thanks. I'm bookmarking these.

[Berlum]

33. k and r

nt

[SamKnause]

37. Fukushima

Indeed you have.

Thank you !!!!

[sabrina 1]

63. Thank you Octafish, you are another reason why I keep coming here.

Those posts need to be kicked, I missed them. This is a huge problem, never mentioned on the US Corporate Media which is why the American people don't seem to care, they DON'T KNOW.

[blackspade]

76. +1000

[cui bono]

228. Bookmarked post and labeled as Octafish' Fukushima Resource List.

Thank you.

[They_Live]

32. This has bothered me since day one.

This catastrophe should be the top priority of every nation on the planet, because it will affect everyone eventually. I think part of the reason it has been downplayed is the corporate takeover of government. I believe that more would have been done already if the governments really represented the People instead of corporate money interests. They don't want to admit failure because then they would have liability and endanger future public funding for their private enterprise. They rest of us will pay for their mistakes one way or another.

[Demeter]

53. Short of "creatively" nuking the site to burn up the radioactive fuel into

more neutral fission products, meanwhile not crating worse fallout, what could another nation offer for assistance?

I don't think we have the technology, even on the drawing board, to deal with this kind of problem.

Which is the point anti-nuclear people have been making all along...China syndrome, anyone?

[blackspade]

80. And this is a huge problem with not only nuclear

but also deep water drilling and climate change.

We keep fucking around with things that we don't know how to contain or fix.

I'm all for pushing technology, but if your going to build nuclear plants you have to have the technology to clean up the crap they produce and contain meltdowns.
If you can't, then don't use until you do. The consequences are horrific.

[Theyletmeeatcake2]

246. Yes I agree totally

It's like driving a race car with no brakes....

[madokie]

211. When nuclear goes bad

it goes bad in a big way.
A genie that should never have been let out of the bottle

[starroute]

55. There's currently a push to get new nuclear plants going

Since Three Mile Island and Chernobyl, there's been a kind of unofficial nuclear moratorium in the US and Western Europe. But now Southern Co. is building the first new nuclear units in the US in 30 years and there are behind-the-scenes dealings in Europe that seem intended to make nuclear construction more viable there.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324448104578614311138104342.html

July 18, 2013

A decision to absorb losses on an over-budget power plant in Mississippi may haunt Southern Co. now that it wants regulators to raise its construction budget for a nuclear power plant in Georgia.

Southern Co. executives fielded critical questions Thursday during their first testimony since announcing the firm couldn't meet its state-approved budget to build two more nuclear reactors at Plant Vogtle, southeast of Augusta. Southern Co. subsidiary Georgia Power has asked to raise the budget for its share of the massive project by $737 million to roughly $6.85 billion. . . .

Southern Co. has said that Georgia's utility regulators have the power to reject any project spending they deems imprudent. The utility has consistently opposed legislation and proposed rules that would have trimmed its profits if the project broke its budget.

Mr. Echols asked how the company didn't consider as imprudent a problem in the installation of metal bars at the plant, an issue that delayed construction. The bars were installed in ways that differed from an approved design. The discrepancy forced Southern Co. to seek federal permission to change its designs. While the NRC approved the changes, the process slowed down construction.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2013/jul/19/nuclear-power-leaks-new-eu-push

19 July 2013

The European Commission is considering a radical change in rules on state aid to nuclear power in a move that would make it easier to build new reactors in Britain.

Draft documents show the proposals along with negative reactions from ministers in Berlin, who have abandoned nuclear in favour of renewables. . . .

The issue is most sensitive in Germany, where an autumn election is looming. Furthermore, the country has decided to phase out its old atomic power plants following the Fukushima accident in Japan. Berlin has instead set its face towards a major renewable power revolution.

But the rethink will delight the UK and France, who are both heavily committed to new nuclear. The Department of Energy and Climate Change in London is currently negotiating with energy firm EDF about financial incentives that would encourage the French company to spend up to £14bn constructing new reactors, firstly at Hinkley Point in Somerset.

[WinkyDink]

69. First Japan has to tell the truth. Don't hold your proverbial breath for that.

[Nay]

198. That would help, for sure. But if a dozen first-world countries pushed it, we could get

them to see reason quickly. I have no doubt that we, and other scientifically-advanced countries, know just about exactly what's going on in that reactor, and that we have generated reams of data and analyses concerning Fukishima that gives our govt a damn good idea what to do.

I fear two things: they know there is nothing they can do, and/or there is no will to do anything because it would take $$$ that the 1% wants.

[WinkyDink]

244. I believe your fears are both 100% justified.

[byeya]

5. When the facility in Ukraine went up it was a huge deal in Europe and they are still dealing with

it in an organized manner.
I don't expect Obama to do much but i would have thought S. Korea and the UN would have tried to organize an international response.
Like you, I'd like to know why this major poisoning of the planet is being ignored. Does the nuclear power industry and the DOE have that much clout to erase the disaster from public discourse? I wouldn't think so.

[djean111]

6. If all the nations pitched in to help, that would be admitting that nuclear power is dangerous.

Too much money invested in it. It all comes down to short term profit, and anticipated long term profit.
The planet does not matter at all.
What is this "our media" you speak of? It is almost all corporate owned and directed.

[earthside]

7. And it is invisible.

I live near Rocky Flats in Colorado.

The other problem with radioactivity poisoning is that it happens relatively slowly.

Sure, cancer rates are higher in residential areas around Rocky Flats or that were downwind of the 1969 fire.

But it took years for those illnesses to develop ... and just try and prove beyond a reasonable doubt that radioactivity had anything to do with those cancers. Radioactivity is an invisible killer.

And that is what Fukishima will do to us.
It might take 40 or 50 years before the giant dead zones in the Pacific develop because of Fukishima -- and that is just too long for the average human mind to have a clear enough memory to learn anything from.

The deadliness of even low-level radioactivity has never been taken seriously by most people.
Of course, the ill-effects of radioactivity are denied by the nuclear power and the weapons/government industries.

My opinion is that atmospheric nuclear weapons testing in the 1950s and nuclear power plant accidents since may eventually poison the planet ... like you say.

[KT2000]

50. Some have even suggested

that the casualties from the nuclear and other weapons testing from the Cold War exceeds those of World War II. Now we will be adding in the nuclear accidents.
The invisible factor is a major culprit - like toxic chemical exposures that are not taken seriously by even the medical community.

[CrispyQ]

68. This. ^^^

Invisible & slow.

A friend asked me recently if I ever wanted to live anywhere else & I said, "Oh sure. I used to want to move to the Oregon coast." When she asked why I didn't want to any more, I said Fukishima. She laughed her ass off. She thinks I'm nuts.

Many years ago a nurse asked me, "Which one of your health professionals is keeping track of how much radiation you are exposed to?" She talked about how doctors blithely prescribe x-rays & scans. IMO, there is no safe amount of radiation.

[Sirveri]

229. you get 300 mrem from the sun every year, so I'm pretty sure that there is a safe amount.

Otherwise life would not exist. Life is about growth and self repair, otherwise radiation would kill all life.

[Gravitycollapse]

237. There is absolutely a safe amount of radiation. Your body emits radiation.

In the infrared range. The term radiation encompasses all electromagnetic radiation.

[think]

9. k&R

[Cleita]

11. K&R

[Puzzledtraveller]

13. Because it's in far away land and the people look different.

[snagglepuss]

51. Not everything has to do with racism. Majority of people are uninformed, many

wilfully ignorant. Many who informed but not experts too scared and too overwhelmed to confront the reality, hoping that experts will figure it out.

[LuvNewcastle]

14. I don't think about it much because it's just so awful.

It's so depressing to think about what kind of planet we're leaving to future generations. I haven't heard anyone seriously mention a solution to this disaster, either. I have a suspicion that it might be a situation where the cure is worse than the disease. It looks to me like they're just going to let the problem take its course.

[enough]

17. There are a number of American servicemen who do give a shit, having been contaminated at Fukushima

http://www.stripes.com/in-growing-lawsuit-servicemembers-fault-tepco-for-radiation-related-illnesses-1.230512

Thanks to DUer The Straight Story for posting this story a couple of weeks ago, though it got not attention at the time.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. And some of us were (still are) personally attacked

by the same crew that continues to personally attack whenever we raise any issue that violates their view of how the world should work. Some of this is partisan, quite a bit actually, some of it is just plain denial.

As far as Fuku is concerned, wait, because the Wind Industry (as currently configured) will have a similar event. No, it will not involve contamination, but it will involve a major wild fire.

I have no idea how we can continue to be a petroleum based society, make the transition to non petrol based civilization, and not have a dark cloud over the technology we chose to use.

[Junkdrawer]

19. That's just crazy - and very revealing.

Windbagger.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Are you paid by the industry? (This is a classic industry attack)

Or just believe blindly the AWEA? (American Wind Energy Association)

Because you know what? We have had fires caused by wind turbines. You know what is even better, thanks for the example. You provide zero information, but go directly for the attack. You know what that reminds me off? The attacks during Fuku. Turns out to be that I was right, and people like your type were wrong.

I cover wild fires, I cover the wind industry, and as currently configured it has a dark cloud over it.. deal with it, or keep lapping up industry talking points and repeating them.

But Junkdrawer. thanks for the example of the attack. I will now copy and paste the attack in case you decide to remove it.

Junkdrawer
19. That's just crazy - and very revealing.
View profile
Windbagger.

[Junkdrawer]

24. "We have had fires caused by wind turbines." Really?

Name two...

[Agschmid]

27. That poster has me on ignore...

but I'd love to also see even one example of a fire caused by a functioning turbine (not the construction of such turbine)

[treestar]

82. wind turbines cause all kinds of evils

some of the fun:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022861400

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022859950

[Agschmid]

28. I googled... Because the poster will not respond.

I found a few... http://whenwindturbinesgobad.blogspot.com/?m=1

The website above has no links after 2008 from what I can tell?

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. Yes really.

The Kahuku wild fire in Hawaii started at the farm

and here you go...

http://www.industrytap.com/dangers-of-wind-turbines/1339

The photo of the wind turbine on fire is worth it.

Oh what the hell, to snap you out, here you go



Anybody who thinks, like you do, that a particular energy technology has no dark side is living in fantasy.

And it is a matter of time, next you will tell me that we are also imagining the more frequent and harder to control wild fires on the West Coast, or the fact that Cal Fire is spending 2 Billion/anum to fight fires.

[Junkdrawer]

38. The Kahuku turbine fire didn't cause a wildfire....

There HAVE been Kahuku wildfires, but that incident didn't cause one.

Still waitig for the two.

[Junkdrawer]

43. So YOU spread FUD, can't backup your lies, then accuse me, of all people...

of being an industry troll.

What a piece of work.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. I gave you facts

all you do is attack.

Congrats for giving us even MORE examples of what I posted originally. You are attacking personally. And yes I asked you if you were an industry shill, because things like the Peaker plants as part of the grid are usually ignored by the industry. I have asked them at presser about them... they will hue and dance and never address them.

So you are telling me peaker plants are FUD?

You have yet to address the need of those plants, which are FOSSIL fuel plants, and part of the GRID, to keep grid stability.

Let me copy your attack though before you remove it.

Junkdrawer
43. So YOU spread FUD, can't backup your lies, then accuse me, of all people...
View profile
of being an industry troll.

What a piece of work.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

200. removing shit is your tactic...

and claiming that you are spreading FUD is NOT a personal attack... it is attacking your post as being without merit. perhaps you don't know what personal attacks really are because you seem to think anyone who disagrees with you is attacking you personally.

sP

[loli phabay]

134. rofl so your the poster referenced in the ask the admin thread

I would not bother questioning this poster as you will never get a respectful answer rather a word sald of insults. Its not worth the bamdwidth really.

[Orrex]

39. That's a rather spooky picture

My net-access is limited here @ work; how did that fire start?

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. The Siemens tower in question

has 1500 gallons of oil in it, coming up the tower. Every so often, a well known failure by the way, a well worn bearing will produce a spark, and off to the races we go. Blowing pieces that are on fire can start things, and it gets better, it is still energized, so fire fighters cannot use water on it... and it requires a specialized response. Most wild land firefighters are not equipped for that.

At the bottom they also have a small engine that is used to start them. They are heavy enough that regardless of wind conditions they need help to start going. This is the part that the AWEA goes out of it's way to prevent from getting out there.

[Arugula Latte]

67. Oh my God!!! That fire is so much worse than radioactive contamination of the Pacific Ocean!!!

[DevonRex]

186. Why can't you see the similarity in the events? Why????

[Junkdrawer]

47. And since you accuse ME of being an industry troll....

WindBaggers hire “Grassroots” Anti Wind Activists: 20 Bucks a Head to Break Wind



Grist:

Important job opportunity, everyone. From Craigslist:

Our firm needs 100 volunteers to attend and participate in a rally in front of the British Consulate/Embassy in Midtown Manhattan on the East Side on Wednesday, January 30, 2013 at 12 noon. The event is being held in order to protest wind turbines that are being built in Scotland and England. Your participation will be to ONLY stand next to or behind the speakers and elected officials/celebrities that will be speaking at the rally.

“Volunteers” will each get $20. That’s the going rate in New York City for a closely held political principle.

....

http://climatecrocks.com/2013/01/25/windbaggers-hire-grassroots-anti-wind-activists-20-bucks-a-head-to-break-wind/

[MineralMan]

169. Fascinating.

It causes one to wonder about other demonstrations as well. I've never thought of looking on Craigs List for such job offers. I will start doing that, I think.

[Puzzledtraveller]

22. +1

[DevonRex]

171. OMG!! To say a "similar event" can happen with a windmill is just bizarre.

Fucking unreal.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

199. but typical... n/t

[DevonRex]

205. Boggles the mind, but there it is. nt

[dionysus]

202. nadinstrodamus strikes again!

care for a truffle? I got the good diamond sprinkles this time!

[DevonRex]

203. Ooh, yummy!! .

Nadinstradamus. Oh my.

Tilting at windmills again.

[ThoughtCriminal]

214. After all

They might be giants...

[DevonRex]

218. For hilarity...

Chapter VIII
Of the excellent outcome that the brave don Quixote had in the frightening and never-imagined adventure of the windmills, with other events worthy of happy memory.

Just then, they discovered thirty or forty windmills in that plain. And as soon as don Quixote saw them, he said to his squire: “Fortune is guiding our affairs better than we could have ever hoped. Look over there, Sancho Panza, my friend, where there are thirty or more monstrous giants with whom I plan to do battle and take all their lives, and with their spoils we’ll start to get rich. This is righteous warfare, and it’s a great service to God to rid the earth of such a wicked seed.”

“What giants?” said Sancho Panza.

“Those that you see over there,” responded his master, “with the long arms—some of them almost two leagues long.”

“Look, your grace,” responded Sancho, “what you see over there aren’t giants—they’re windmills; and what seems to be arms are the sails that rotate the millstone when they’re turned by the wind.”

“It seems to me,” responded don Quixote, “that you aren’t well-versed in adventures—they are giants; and if you’re afraid, get away from here and start praying while I go into fierce and unequal battle with them.”

And saying this, he spurred his horse Rocinante without heeding what his squire Sancho was shouting to him, that he was attacking windmills and not giants. But he was so certain they were giants that he paid no attention to his squire Sancho’s shouts, nor did he see what they were, even though he was very close. Rather, he went on shouting: “Do not flee, cowards and vile creatures, for it’s just one knight attacking you!”

At this point, the wind increased a bit and the large sails began to move, which don Quixote observed and said: “Even though you wave more arms than Briaræus, you’ll have to answer to me.”

When he said this—and commending himself with all his heart to his lady Dulcinea, asking her to aid him in that peril, well-covered by his shield, with his lance on the lance rest —he attacked at Rocinante’s full gallop and assailed the first windmill he came to. He gave a thrust into the sail with his lance just as a rush of air accelerated it with such fury that it broke the lance to bits, taking the horse and knight with it, and tossed him rolling onto the ground, very battered.

Sancho went as fast as his donkey could take him to help his master, and when he got there, he saw that don Quixote couldn’t stir—such was the result of Rocinante’s landing on top of him. “God help us,” said Sancho. “Didn’t I tell you to watch what you were doing; that they were just windmills, and that only a person who had windmills in his head could fail to realize it?”

“Keep still, Sancho, my friend,” responded don Quixote. “Things associated with war, more than others, are subject to continual change. Moreover, I believe—and it’s true—that the sage Frestón—he who robbed me of my library—has changed these giants into windmills to take away the glory of my having conquered them, such is the enmity he bears me. But in the long run, his evil cunning will have little power over the might of my sword.”

“God’s will be done,” responded Sancho Panza
SNIP
http://cervantes.tamu.edu/V2/CPI/TEI/TEI_1605/1605/1605/chapter8.html

One of the funniest passages ever written.
ETA: Small excerpt from Don Quixote, a novel by Miguel de Cervantes. Just in case people don't know. And it's public domain in the United States.

[dionysus]

201. ....

[Junkdrawer]

20. The more dire the problem, the stronger the denial.

Global warming, resource depletion, overpopulation....

Until these things hit us square in the face, we ALL put them in the back of our minds.

[Skidmore]

23. By "people " who do you mean?

From where I sit, it appears that the damage is already done. At least that appears to be the general theme of the articles on DU. I think people don't know what to do. How exactly do you contain this stuff after itmakes irs way into the sea? How do you quarantine such a large area and so many species? I don't know the technology and I'm certain there are millions like me. What needs to be done? What intelligent course of action steps should the public get behind? What entities should be lobbied on such an international reaching event? I think it is way too easy to chastise.

[ancianita]

34. And why aren't Cleanup Courses Of Action a mandatory budget item for ALL energy technologies.

[ErikJ]

25. Didnt you hear? The Royal baby has arrived. And its a BOY!

[animato]

29. It's worldwide denial.

Thanks for bringing it up because it's easy to forget about.

[hunter]

35. Because, sadly, there's far worse to worry about...

The damage done by nuclear power, even with accidents, is negligible in comparison to the global catastrophe caused by fossil fuels.

The end of the world as we know it, a world-wide disaster that is already killing millions of people and leaving more and more of the earth ugly and uninhabitable, is a consequence of our fossil fuel use. Fossil fuels will cause the collapse of this civilization, and perhaps the death of billions of people. The earth will not recover the biological diversity our ancestors knew for hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of years.

The damage done to humans by the accident at Fukushima will be lost in the statistical noise, and fish from certain areas will be unmarketable, which is probably a positive thing if you are one of those fish. Death on a dinner table is a sure thing, but left in the ocean, a fish has got a chance, even when it's slightly more radioactive than it might have been. The Deepwater Horizon accident was in many ways worse than the Fukushima accident, and its operators don't even have the excuse of a giant earthquake and tsunami. BP is every bit as culpable as the operators of Chernobyl.

Humans have already contaminated the oceans with toxins like mercury (half life of forever) by our use of coal. The toxins spewing from fukishima, radioactive toxins that will be gone quickly on natural timescales of centuries or millennia, are not such a big deal in comparison to things like coal mines, tar sand projects, or burning collapsing deep sea oil platforms.

For ethical reasons I think commercial harvesting of ocean species ought to be banned, leaving the fish for the cetaceans, great white sharks, etc., and I also know that many ocean species are already unacceptably contaminated with man-made carcinogens and neurotoxins. I won't eat tuna, swordfish, etc.. I won't even eat some of the species on the Monterey Bay Aquarium "Super Green" Seafood Watch List.

Do I promote nuclear power? No. I simply think there are many ways of generating electricity that are far worse. Coal is one. "Fracked" natural gas is another.

[Demo_Chris]

66. great post nt

[TreasonousBastard]

36. The ocean is already poisoned, this just adds to it...

mercury, cadmium, and just about every chemical we've created is out there, making some fish, like striped bass, unsafe to eat.

The world's largest garbage dump sits out there the Pacific and there's plenty of raw sewage pumped into the bays and rivers. Undeveloped countries are building industries on the water dumping everything from sewage to paint and chemicals without any treatment.

Plutonium is bad, but how much worse than what's already out there?

[Loubee]

40. Nuclear power advocates:

So the horrific inevitable scenario has to actually develop for real before advocates have second thoughts...

[Kablooie]

42. And add global warming to this and the human race is in for a hell of a century .

After this century there may not be much left of the human race so we don't have to worry about then.

[Marje]

45. Seattle.....

"People here don't give a shit because the ocean is big and we are far away. "

The people in Seattle are concerned....

and, if I were living in Korea or eastern China, I'd be really really concerned......

[snappyturtle]

54. I think you're right Marje and add to your thought that

so many families simply are truly bogged down with jobs, 1?2?, putting food on the dining table, kids, daycare, bills etc. they don't have much free time or energy to pay attention to what's happening maybe a half of the planet away. The free time they have is spent mindlessly watching some babble on teevee and who can blame them? Then, it's try to get some sleep and start the entire process over ad infinitum. And, I'm talking about people who are more or less making it or hanging on. Those not making it have zero time to focus on anything that isn't addressing immediate needs. Sad.

Welcome to DU!

[babydollhead]

48. there is radiation coming from Japan

Its horrible. I walk around crying in my throat. Nobody else is concerned. or fretting. It makes me ease up on what I let my teenage daughter do, "can I go on a motorcycle ride with a hoodlum from the bad part of town?" "yes". I don't say it out loud but I sure do think it...(there is radiation coming from Japan)...
I have students of mine who are psychiatrists, I teach art... and I asked if anyone has mentioned this radiation coming from Japan to them, so far nothing.
There is a man I know, he said for 40 bucks he would worry about Fukishima for awhile so I could take a break.

[Egalitarian Thug]

59. We withdrew into a fantasy years ago. This is a big, unsolvable problem and it's easier

to pretend it doesn't matter than to worry about something you can't do anything about.
& R

[matthews]

49. Absolutely! nt

Edit: How do you recommend a thread so it shows up as 'recommended'?

[proverbialwisdom]

71. Sign in, click 'DURec' button on bottom left of Original Post.' (Rec is in red). Voila! nt

[matthews]

77. Thank you so much! nt

[proverbialwisdom]

79. Anytime. Welcome to DU! nt

[pansypoo53219]

52. get a towel. don't panic.

i don't eat seafood.

[kestrel91316]

56. My only hope is that the radioactive particles will settle out and wind up in ocean sediments under

hundreds or thousands of feet of water, which will absorb the radiation. If the contamination stays suspended and moves around with currents, it's not good.

[Tien1985]

57. Not very long

After the first meltdown, it snowed. I was walking with a few other people from work and said, "I wonder if this is contaminated or how long it'll take before it will be?" I didn't say it critically or offensively, more just a sad question. Everyone looked at me like I had canceled Christmas on December 24th, and one called me a shit (he meant no harm by it). But to me, their response was loud and clear. We don't know what to do about it, we don't know if anything CAN be done about it and we're more comfortable pretending it's not happening.

I'm very concerned, but I have nothing meaningful to add to the discussion, so I don't talk about it much.

[brush]

58. They don't care yet

I read an article about a year or so ago that this Fukishima leak will lead to world catastrophe as it just keeps spewing poison into the ocean but nobody is doing anything about it because the Japanese government is downplaying it.

The younger generation needs to start thinking like Superman's parents did about getting the hell out of Dodge . . . er ah Krypton . . . er ah Earth.

[Demo_Chris]

60. Not quite...

I care about the REALITY of the event. I care about the people who have lost their homes and everything they own. I care about the children growing up and the exclusion zone. I care about ALL the victims of the Tsunami -- the millions who are ignored by the anti-nuke crusaders.

I don't care about the fictional Fukushima.

The one in which the world ends, and Godzilla and Cthulhlu rise from the radioactive watery abyss to curb stomp the cancerous survivors. The fantasy in which an ocean is contaminated and rendered lifeless from a single nuclear plant, and death rain falls from the glowing radioactive sky.

This was a horrific tragedy, and one that could likely have been avoided had anti-nuclear activists focussed their energy on demanding safety and continuously upgraded modern designs rather than obstructing the construction of new plants. We see that here in America, power companies are forced to stretch the lifespan of existing plants far beyond any safe service life, and it is going to end in another disaster. Sad, but there it is.

[RobertEarl]

108. Whoop! There it is!!

It's the environmentalists' fault!

If only we had let them build more they would have shut down all the unsafe plants. Wait, they said all the plants were safe......

Those damned anti-nuclear people have destroyed the world!

Thank you demo-chris, who else in the right mind could come up with such garbage as yours? Rush, maybe? You must not be one of them in-tee-lexuals?

[Safetykitten]

119. Amazing...truly amazing spectacle of republican-like messaging.

[nebenaube]

156. oh bullshit... n/t

[closeupready]

204. Yes, there it is - there is the same bullshit we hear

every time nuke accidents poison the environment.

[Phil1934]

61. cooling water is the problem

They are currently storing nearly 100 million gallons of radioactive water and want to slowly release it into the ocean as they have cut down forests to make room for the tanks and are running out of space while groundwater still seeps into the plant.

[hopemountain]

239. this is horrifying!!!!!

this info needs to get out here.

[Moostache]

62. I have read through all of the responses to this thread (to this point)...

The common theme is "We're doomed", and as much as I wish it were otherwise, I can't disagree...but we CAN go out fighting. We CAN try to slow the calamities and give humanity a chance at rousing science, technology and collective resources into an actual concerted effort to save ourselves - or at least a portion of us. We CAN lend strength to each other and try to prop ourselves up to fight on in the face of certain doom and insurmountable odds.

What is becoming more and more clear to me though is that we CANNOT save our current lifestyles and patterns of waste. There is no magic bullet for us to get the panacea for eternal growth on a finite planet. Our problems are massive and growing like a tumor everyday, but they are only symptoms of the disease - unregulated, global capitalism is our disease. When caps and regulations kept corporate power (barely) under control, the problems were akin to a stage 1 tumor (like I had and survived), but that has metastasized and gone systemic in the last 30+ years and we seem to have given up the fight collectively.

The media is like a morphine drip...numbing us to the pain and preventing us from lucidly considering the alternatives or marshaling our will to fight on. Goddamn 'royal' babies? What the fuck? Is this 2013 or freaking 1013? Just like a morphine addicted patient, we need to collectively wean our fellow man from this poisonous death trap.

The greatest tragedy that I am living is watching this whole thing unfold and KNOWING there are better ways and more equitable solutions and the possibilities even at this late hour of different, survivable outcomes yet being powerless to see them brought into reality. It breaks my heart daily and saps my soul, so I know where the apathy comes from....I feel it even as I type this now. Thanks for the many links and flow of information. It is frightening and depressing to read and compare the reaction we are seeing to the reaction we need...but its more than the poisonous media will dare to put out.

[Junkdrawer]

73. Well said. I keep waiting for the problems to become SO obvious that psychopathic greedheads....

give way to the best and brightest.

It's a dream as old as HG Well's "The Shape of Things to Come" or older.

Alas, too many take the coin of those psychopathic greedheads to defeat democracy and defend the hell bound train.

[Blue_In_AK]

64. Not only the contamination

but the debris on the beaches. No one wants to pay for any clean-up. Stuff's been washing up on Alaska's shoreline for over a year. http://www.npr.org/2013/02/06/170858057/refrigerators-bottles-foams-tsunami-debris-lands-in-alaska

[Safetykitten]

115. The Fuki deniers can go up there and clean it up. They like the radiation.

[WovenGems]

65. Bottom line

If you have an event like Chernobyl or Fukishima there isn't anything thing to do but to declare the effected area as a "no go" area. Too bad this had to happen on an island that has limited space but it is what it is.

[Conium]

70. Use less energy.

Energy conservation is the solution but no "conservative" will ever accept it.

I understand that many Japanese citizens and most foreigners have evacuated and relocated. I was made in Japan many years ago, but at this time I have no desire to return.

[proverbialwisdom]

72. K&R.

[NoMoreWarNow]

74. I think people give a shit but there's not much we can do about it

plus, it's obviously bad but there's way too much doomsday talk about it.

[blackspade]

75. Unfortuantely, nuclear power was never safe.

We as a civilization could do it safer, but because the work is done by low-bid contractors and corporations seeking to make a buck the work is of the lowest quality and sites are chosen for political reasons rather than for their appropriateness.

Now we have to live with the consequences.

[proverbialwisdom]

83. I greatly admire Gregory Jaczko whose handling of the Fukushima crisis may have cost him his job.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_Jaczko

Gregory Jaczko
Chairperson of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission
2009–2012

[img][/img]

<>

Policy positions[edit]

Jaczko has asserted that the greatest possible openness furthers the Nuclear Regulatory Commission's work on the protection of the environment and of public health and safety.[8] He encourages “licensees, vendors, state and local governments, interest groups, and the general public” to participate in the Commission's policy-making efforts.[8] Efforts by Jaczko to strengthen security regulations for nuclear power plants have included requiring new such plants to be able to withstand an aircraft crash.[8]

On February 9, 2012 Jaczko cast the lone dissenting vote on plans to build the first new nuclear power plant in more than 30 years when the NRC voted 4-1 to allow Atlanta-based Southern Co to build and operate two new nuclear power reactors at its existing Vogtle nuclear power plant in Georgia. He cited safety concerns stemming from Japan's 2011 Fukushima nuclear disaster, saying "I cannot support issuing this license as if Fukushima never happened".[9]

<>

Peter A. Bradford, who was a commission member from 1977 to 1982, has defended Jaczko. Bradford said it was not unusual for the commissioners to disagree strongly, and added that he did not believe that "the chairman is somehow raging around the agency and intimidating the staff". He also argued that, although the letter came from two Republicans and two Democrats, it was necessarily bi-partisan in the context of nuclear politics. He claimed that "In Washington, you’ve got a situation where the ‘nuclear party’ transcends the Republican and Democratic party," adding that "You’ve got four members of the nuclear party writing a letter about the chairman, who’s never been a member of the nuclear party."[18]
Jaczko eventually did resign in May of 2012 due to the controversy surrounding him.

<>

[KoKo]

90. Interesting...thanks!

[LittleGirl]

84. I care

but what can I do? What can we do? We've known about the garbage pile in the middle of the Pacific for years but NOBODY and no government will go out there and clean up that mess either. That earthquake shook the whole planet and changed the coastline of Japan forever and this nuclear waste has been seeping into the ocean since and if anyone didn't realize that when it happened, then they were ignoring the obvious. Exactly what can we do? I used to think that protesting and carrying around a sign with a warning might work but now, after OWS, protesters are arrested, mistreated and have a police record to follow them afterward. Frankly, I feel completely helpless and I'm pretty sure, that the rest of us that are AWARE, feel similar to that. Sometimes, I just want to pull the covers over my head and cry for the rest of the day. I cry for the children I could never have and the grandchildren of my siblings that will have to face this reality long after I'm gone.

[KoKo]

93. We have dragnets that trawl the ocean for fish...yet we can't clean up

at least "some" of that garbage floating out there? They say it collects in certain Dead Zones... Then at least try to get the stuff that floats on top. Much of smaller stuff probably is under surface and harder to get at in the currents (without great loss to marine life)...but the visible stuff should be able to skimmed off with some inventive equipment. We know how the currents work because of the Tsunami Trash tracking and if large items are floating all the way over here...then there should be a way to track and get larger amounts of what's floating out for recycling.

It would take a lot of money and innovation...that we now spend on jobs for War. Turn War to Peace and Clean Up of the Planet. It can be done...but, there has to be a will. Think of our Army and Navy being able to work to come up with clearing methods. Think of those jobs along with even the dreaded "Contractors" who are fighting our wars, who could be employed in those efforts.

I don't know what we do about the Oil and Radiation Contamination...but, at least getting some of the TRASH out would be a start. It's killing marine life right now and the more global trash grows because of consumerism..the worse it will get. So...trying to at least deal with what's out there now, would be better than nothing, imho.

[LittleGirl]

95. I totally agree

Let's end the wars and spend some of that money on cleaning up this planet and feed (and educate) the people of the world instead.

[oldhippie]

187. Troll the ocean ... ?

OMG, is nowhere safe? I thought the trolls were only on the interwebz! And they do dragnets!

We have dragnets that troll the ocean for fish...

(Hint: trawl)

[KoKo]

213. I corrected...sorry about that...and thanks for "Heads Up"

I do know the difference...but, these things happen.

[hopemountain]

240. "Turn War to Peace & Clean Up the Planet

some amazing research is being done with mycelia - these little hardworking things can clean up radiation contamination. i don't know about breaking down oil...but it seems possible.

thank you for this great post, koko.

[AtheistCrusader]

86. "within years the entire Pacific will be contaminated"

187 quintillion gallons of water.

[Junkdrawer]

89. Bioaccumulation

http://www.nuclearfreeplanet.org/blogs/bioaccumulation--why-fukushima-matters.html

[AtheistCrusader]

91. And what of the entire REACTORS that have gone in, under operation?

To say nothing of atomic weapons lost at sea. And who knows what the hell various governments threw in as waste.

No, Fukushima Dai-Ichi is a very serious problem, and highlights why we need to move away from this technology long term, and short term if possible (particularly for some currently-operating vulnerable designs and locations), but no, it's not going to poison the whole ocean. It's mostly a local economic problem, because fishermen that live nearby won't be able to sell their wares, even if they are allowed to catch it, and possibly some migratory fish will be exposed. That's about it.

The worst of Fukushima is over. Now it's just a long, slow, miserable march to clean up/seal it in. If you completely atomized the entire site, and threw all of the material directly into the middle of the ocean, that would be pretty bad, but the vast majority of radioactive mass at the site isn't going anywhere.

[Junkdrawer]

92. There has never been an event to compare with Fukushima Dai-Ichi...

And the worst of Fukushima is NOT over until the site is cleaned up. Reactor #4 in particular.

[byeya]

96. Maybe, maybe not. For 12 years nations routinely dumped radioactive material into the ocean.

That's a lot of poison too.

[AtheistCrusader]

97. Oh please, reactor 4 wasn't even operating when it happened. 1-3 are much worse.

And no, bullshit, Chernobyl was WAY worse. Chernobyl hit 33 gigawatts indicated thermal output before the vast majority of the core material blew, burning, into the sky.

Fukushima is a fuckawful mess, but hardly compares, total radioactive material release.

If you want to be worried about something we don't know much about, be worried about all the unknown waste we've tossed into the oceans, from various governments, in undeclared amounts, rotting in 55 gallon drums, just getting eaten away, waiting to release contents. We won't know until numbers start rising, and we won't even know who, precisely, to blame.

[Junkdrawer]

107. The spent fuel pool of Reactor 4 is what people are worried about...

and getting those rods to dry cast storage is worthy of an international effort, IMHO.

[AtheistCrusader]

120. It's a lot of material.

But keeping it cool short-term is pretty trivial. Long term, TEPCO probably has all the expertise they need to get it into caskets. Recent photos of the plant show a lot of construction efforts around all of the reactors, and they are making apparent good progress at isolating shit from the environment, which eliminates problems like some of the groundwater, and rainwater getting into the reactors, etc.

It'll make it easier to get that fuel out of #4's pool too. Reduces skyshine, gets gantries in place, etc.

it's just a miserable, slow process. Only wildcard is something like another enormous quake or tsunami or both, really.

[Safetykitten]

122. So...how long till they get a grip on it?

[AtheistCrusader]

124. Unsure.

Depends on how you define 'get a grip on it'. Took about 15 years to clean up 3 mile island, and that core didn't escape the RPV, and the containment was intact.

I'm guessing 3-5 years to start making progress getting the fuel pool empty, but that's just a guess. Throwing more nation's resources at it doesn't necessarily make that process any faster.

[Safetykitten]

126. Unsure? You are confident this can be handled. Unsure is not an answer.

We need timetables. Especially from experts like you.

"But keeping it cool short-term is pretty trivial."

[AtheistCrusader]

132. Sure.

First off, the rods in pool 4 are not visibly damaged, so that's good. If cooling is lost, it'll take 4 days for the pool to reach a dangerous temperature. A couple fire pumps can keep it circulating at this point, and TEPCO has multiple redundancy on those cooling systems now, so that's a major improvement.

Timetables? No. For one, I didn't promise you any. For another, there are plenty of unknowns in play, so anything is likely to take longer than expected.

Unsure is an answer, even if you don't like it. It's not for me to promise timetables for them.

[Safetykitten]

136. "It's not for me to promise timetables for them."...

But you are so good at the certainty of the process. What an odd disconnect.

[AtheistCrusader]

137. Not my problem.

You are free to ignore anything I say.

[questionseverything]

131. http://www.bradblog.com/?p=8420

According to Greenpeace Germany's statement, based on their analysis from Dr. Helmut Hirsch:

The total amount of radionuclides iodine-131 and caesium-137 released since the start of the accident until March 23rd, as reported by the two institutes require the Fukushima accident to be reclassified to the same level as the Chernobyl nuclear disaster twenty five years ago in April 1986. In fact so high are the releases that they...amount to three INES 7 accidents.

In contrast to the Chernobyl accident which involved one nuclear reactor, Fukushima has suffered major failures at four.
...
Dr Hirsch concludes, "Taking all the releases from the Fukushima-daiichi reactors together this [is] obviously an INES 7 with the possibility that it is three INES 7's, taking each reactor separately which results in a release of 100,000 Tbq each."

"From the very beginning this accident looked potentially devastating in terms of radiation release. It is far from over, and today we have further evidence of a very real risk of reactor core meltdown with potentially catastrophic effects. The nuclear industry and the IAEA have claimed since Chernobyl that such an event would not take place in a western reactor. Their dangerous complacency over decades has now led us to an utter catastrophe for the people of Japan, and the accident is not over," said Heinz Smital nuclear expert of Greenpeace Germany.

Hirsch and Greenpeace are also [critical] of the INES scale as the basis on which nuclear accidents are assessed by national governments and the IAEA [International Atomic Energy Agency]. The INES scale was intended to be applied in the case of one accident at one site. At Fukushima, the accidents have been at multiple nuclear reactors, suffering two critical failures - reactor cooling and spent fuel storage. The INES scale was never designed for such an eventuality because the nuclear industry and the IAEA considered such things not possible.

[jeff47]

99. No.

The absolute maximum of radioactive material that Fukushima can dump into the Pacific is the total contents of the reactors. Contaminating a fish doesn't produce "new" radioactive material. Thus Fukushima can not contaminate the entire Pacific. The Pacific is too large.

We're supposed to be the party of science. We should actually ask to see the math when people make such claims.

[Junkdrawer]

100. "Contaminating a fish doesn't produce "new" radioactive material."

That's your understanding of bioaccumulation?

Oh.

[jeff47]

102. No, that's you continuing to not understand.

Bioaccumulation, in a nutshell, is when a dolphin eats slightly radioactive fish. The dolphin receives the sum of all the fish, which can be a fatal dose even though each individual fish had a less-than-lethal dose.

Still doesn't create new radioactive material. And the problem with the "poison the entire Pacific" claim is it requires more than the entire contents of the Fukushima reactors. Which is why you'd need to create new radioactive material to actually poison the entire Pacific.

Again, party of science. Demand to see the math before you jump on board.

[Junkdrawer]

103. Poisoning, say, a large proportion of Bluefin Tuna, is "poisoning the entire Pacific" in my book...

Your milage may vary.

[jeff47]

104. There isn't enough radioactive material to do that.

Which is my entire fucking point.

Poisoning "a large proportion of Blue Tuna" would still require vastly more radioactive material than is in the reactors.

[Junkdrawer]

105. “Absolutely Every One” Bluefin Tuna Tested In California Waters Contaminated with Fukushima....

“The tuna packaged it up and brought it across the world’s largest ocean,” said marine ecologist Daniel Madigan at Stanford University, who led the study team. “We were definitely surprised to see it at all and even more surprised to see it in every one we measured.”

....

“We found that absolutely every one of them had comparable concentrations of cesium-134 and cesium-137,” said marine biologist Nicholas Fisher at Stony Brook University in New York state, who was part of the study group.

....

Neither [of the scientists who tested the fish] thought they were likely to find cesium at all, they said. And since the fish tested were born about a year before the disaster, “This year’s fish are going to be really interesting,” Madigan said.

“There were fish born around the time of the accident, and those are the ones showing up in California right now,” he said. “Those have been, for the most part, swimming around in those contaminated waters their whole lives.”

.....

http://intellihub.com/2013/05/29/absolutely-every-one-bluefin-tuna-tested-in-california-waters-contaminated-with-fukushima-radiation/

[jeff47]

195. Still doesn't overcome the scale problem.

Absolutely every one.....caught in a small geographic area. That happens to be the direct path of currents from the plant.

How 'bout the tuna caught off Australia? Your claims of complete contamination require they must be contaminated too.

And that still doesn't get to the levels detected - those tuna didn't have enough radioactive material to be poisoned. It was detected, but at levels below what is generally considered "poison".

Keep in mind there's always been radioactive atoms around us. Every so often, we pick one up. That's how carbon-14 dating works, after all.

[Safetykitten]

113. So if it goes on for a couple of generations, still ok? I mean it's a big ocean.

And they have no plans on it not going on for generations...

[AtheistCrusader]

125. The comparison was made to the total amount of fuel on site.

A long period of time for it to 'leak' is better than dumping it all at once, grand scheme and all.

[Safetykitten]

128. So how long will it "leak"?

[AtheistCrusader]

133. Until they plug everything, drain, and empty it?

[Safetykitten]

139. Yes.

[AtheistCrusader]

142. Stop that.

We're not allowed to agree on anything.

[Safetykitten]

144. Stop what? You are the person trivializing the situation.

[AtheistCrusader]

147. I'm not trivializing it.

Earlier I called it a "fuckawful mess" and I have cautioned that it is going to take years to see any traction on the cleanup.

Please don't tell me that's 'trivializing it'.

You know, there's another way to trivialize something, if you want to. What you do is make breathless hyperbolic claims that don't pan out. Then when the sound and fury abates in the face of NO major predicted problems panning out, people stop paying attention....

You see where I'm going with this right?
I think it's important to recognize this mess for what it is, not what people want it to be.

[Safetykitten]

153. I am deeply thinking about what you wrote. Wait...wait...

Nah.

[AtheistCrusader]

155. I know, it's hard.

It's cool though, it's Tuesday, I understand. I'm not really up to it either, or I would bury someone downthread in links to non-tepco sources. But really, what's the point. Even if, on the whole, they show the problem slowly improving, they will be dismissed anyway, etc.

[Safetykitten]

159. Slowly improving. 2060 say?

[AtheistCrusader]

162. Sure.

Given the damage, I'd say that's a reasonable guesstimate for the removal of all fuel from the site.

On average, I'll still be around to see it, if that's the case.

[Safetykitten]

163. Well at least your an optimist.

[jeff47]

196. Going on for a couple generations actually reduces the problem.

The scenario I describe is the equivalent of taking the reactor cores, grinding them into a fine powder and sprinkling them over the entire ocean. All at once.

The result? Not much. The pacific ocean is really, really, really big. So even in that scenario, the Pacific will not be "completely contaminated". You'd have less than 1 radioactive atom per cubic mile of ocean.

[AtheistCrusader]

106. Ok, that statement I would accept BUT

that wasn't the context in the OP, in common English.

But yes, that's a much more reasonable criteria, and I agree with you. Poisoning is a step well beyond contamination, that's a large migratory population, etc.

[Junkdrawer]

191. Frankly, on a scale of 1 to 10, "Poisoning the Pacific from Fukushima" is a 1 to 2 with me....

The kids of Fukushima prefect are a 15

The adults of Fukushima prefect are a 12

The kids of Japan in general are a 9

etc.

etc.

but ""Poisoning the Pacific" is not a zero. Too many unknowns.

[Safetykitten]

114. How is that Mr. Math? There is a shutoff switch we do not know about at the plant?

[jeff47]

193. No, I'm saying if you sprinkle the entire contents over the ocean

it isn't enough to get over background levels. Because the Pacific is really fucking big.

I'm talking about the utterly worse case scenario, not some dumb-ass "Tepco will save us!!" bullshit that you are asserting.

Reading. Try it.

[nebenaube]

167. Showing you the math would be akin to introducing Adam & Eve to calculus.

[Safetykitten]

168. Now you are just being a math snob.

[jeff47]

194. And yet, you utterly failed to do so.

Almost like it doesn't actually support the claims above.

But hey, snide comments are just as good, right?

[tblue37]

94. Our "alarm systems" evolved to deal with the tiger

in the bush, not with a huge, long-term catastrophe occurring out of sight and beyond our immediate vicinity.

It is not easy for human beings to worry about such scary events when we can't see them and when they have no clear or immediate impact on our lives.

In fact, I am often amazed that so many of us manage to work around this limitation in our awareness, but even those of us who do worry about such things are not able to focus on them much, because we have nearby problems and dangers to deal with, and our minds are geared toward dealing with them instead.

But what you say is also true. I find it hard to dwell on all these things--environmental degradation, Fukushima, global warming, etc.--because when I think too much about them I feel extremely stressed and almost totally paralyzed. I cannot even bear to see such films as An Inconvenient Truth, Blackfish, or the one about the melting of the glaciers and the polar ice cap. I know what they are about, but thinking too much about those things is unbearable.

[jeff47]

98. I'm reminded of those who predicted that the Deepwater Horizon leak

would fill the entire Gulf of Mexico with oil.

You need to do some math. Even if every single ounce of plutonium at Fukishima is dumped into the Pacific, it will not contaminate the entire Pacific. Because the Pacific is that big.

I was a nuclear power advocate until this catastrophe. This event will probably poison the planet.

You seem to have confused nuclear power with what we turned to so that we could avoid nuclear power: Coal and gas. That is poisoning the entire planet. But it is a nice, slow boil instead of a shocking incident.

[Safetykitten]

111. We all know that the gulf is now cleaner and more pristine after the blowout.

Thanks BP spokesmodel!

[jeff47]

192. Is it literally full of oil?

People were predicting that there would literally be no water there. And those predictions got plenty of play because people didn't bother to figure out just how much oil that would be.

Same thing here.

But nice job with the glib comment to cover for your anti-science.

[Silent3]

216. Don't you register any shades of gray between absolute contamination and pristine purity?

Last edited Tue Jul 23, 2013, 11:28 PM - Edit history (1)

And people either have to set their hair on fire with fear and hyperbole, or otherwise they must be shills or dupes for the bad guys?

[Apophis]

101. Hate to be a stickler, but Japan is made up of more than 6,000 islands.

The four largest are Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, and Shikoku.

[Safetykitten]

110. So you would have no problem living there, say just to the north?

[Apophis]

116. Uh, nowhere in my post did I ever insinuate that.

[Safetykitten]

117. Well then why your little geography missive? Big place yes indeedy!

So you would NOT want to live there? Reasons like....

[Apophis]

118. Your reading comprehension isn't quite up to par, I see.

[Safetykitten]

121. Ok, explain.

[oldhippie]

129. Many of us on DU have no comprehension of ......

.... details or accuracy. It doesn't matter if what you say is accurate. It's how you FEEL about saying it that counts.

That is evident in SO many threads.

[RobertEarl]

146. You are a pro at it, hippie

A pro at 'no comprehension'.

But here is your big chance, hippie, to prove you do comprehend the ramifications of all the nuclear cores draining in to the ocean.

Now look, like you say, don't give us your feelings, just give us pure science.

*crickets?*

[Safetykitten]

149. Most old hippies I know are worse than young republicans.

It's something about them having the fun fucking around, but as they get older they turn into the most narrow-minded people you would ever want to meet. I think it's about them not wanting others younger having fun and protecting their little slice of heaven.

[RobertEarl]

157. And some are just fake hippies

This one and I have had a few discussions. I do not think oldhippie was ever a hippie. And they certainly do not know the science behind nuclear cores draining into the ocean. No one does. It has never happened before.

But the available science says that it - the radiation- will alter life as we know it.

[Safetykitten]

161. Oh...

[oldhippie]

183. But at least I know that Japan ....

.... is not an island. Can you figure out why that is important?

[AtheistCrusader]

164. There are at least

6 naval reactors, lost at sea. Gone. The whole fucking thing.

Fukushima is just another issue in a list of issues.

[oldhippie]

181. Well, look who finally showed up.

I was wondering where you were.

And I have no need to prove to you any comprehension of the ramifications of all the nuclear cores draining in to the ocean.

That's your shtick, not mine.

I have my "feelings" about it, and you wouldn't like them at all.

[RobertEarl]

184. See, you are cluless

And you just love to prove it.

I guess I have crushed you in debate so many times already you actually have learned your lesson?

[oldhippie]

188. I am crushed all right .....

I sure know better than to get into it with you!

[RobertEarl]

190. Good for you, you have learned

Like I said, the consequences of the nuclear cores draining into the ocean are unknown. But the science says that this will not be good for life as we know it.

And you know better than to disagree. I have been successful at making you stop and think, finally.

[AtheistCrusader]

197. Maybe dolphins will develop opposable thumbs and finally reach the fire-axe age.

[valerief]

109. Maybe the US PTB want the populace to die from contaminated food.

Saves on things like SS and Medicare in the US.

Congress certainly behaves like this is the plan. No more investments in US labor or infrastructure. The PTB is thinking, 'Just eat the poisoned fish and die already you parasites.'

[HiPointDem]

112. people don't give a shit? what?

[questionseverything]

123. that "water" has been leaking over 2 years now

The Tokyo Electric Power Co. (Tepco), which operates the troubled Fukushima nuclear plant, on Thursday admitted that a nuclear meltdown occurred at the plant.

With the nuclear meltdown, Tepco said the nuclear fuel rods in the reactor are completely exposed, as large amounts of radiation are being released. The water level at the plant's No. 1 reactor was much lower than thought - as much as 5 meters (16.4 feet) below the nuclear rods - and clearly not high enough to cover the nuclear fuel.

According to reports, several holes were found at the bottom of the nuclear reactor's pressure vessel, where the melted nuclear fuel now threatens to leak out.

On a daily basis, Tepco injects almost 200 tons of water into the pressure vessel, but it is highly likely that the water has been constantly leaking from the vessel and containment chamber, eventually flowing under the reactor building.
/////////////////////////////////////
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=8520

[AtheistCrusader]

127. Um, that's a LITTLE bit different than current conditions.

Being a 2011 article.

[Safetykitten]

130. So what's curent? Tell us.

[AtheistCrusader]

135. Are you seriously unable to find the same public

news media reports, and TEPCO releases that are accessible to me?

[Safetykitten]

138. But you are certain. So positive. Tell us why we should listen to you.

We want expertise. We want the OTHER side of the story. Please do not let us down and tell us you are just pulling stuff out of your ass.

[AtheistCrusader]

141. You want credibility problems?

Take it up with the hydrovolcanic explosions, fuel pool collapse, and other dire 'we're already all dead' folks breathlessly posting in the immediate aftermath of the disaster.

[Safetykitten]

143. Nice re-direct.

[AtheistCrusader]

145. Tepco provides regular updates.

And there are monitoring systems in place.

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/index-e.html

Reactor 4's cooling pool is isolated, and running on a decent system, with backup, and the waste heat management system has been turned back over to cooling the reactor itself, instead of doing double duty.

So, yeah, as I said, conditions are SLIGHTLY different today than they were in April 2011. I think that's a reasonable enough statement, sure, I'll stand by it.

[Safetykitten]

150. That's where I go for unadulterated truth. Tepco updates on their own disaster. Thanks for the tip!

[AtheistCrusader]

151. There are better sources.

There are also media photos of the site, showing some of the improvements.

Probably just photoshop though, right?

[Safetykitten]

154. How this will play out...

I will say..."PHOTOSHOP?" I can't believe you said that photos are photoshopped.

Then you say..." Where did I say that they were Photoshopped! Comprehension issues much?"

Then I will say...______________________________________ fill that in please.

[AtheistCrusader]

158. Fuck it.

I'm going outside for a run in the fresh air. You should join me. It's a wonderful day, and it puts no load on the electrical system, unlike us bickering back and forth on the internet.

[Safetykitten]

160. No thanks, I have to clean the Cheetos off my shirt and then go breast feed my Bull Masttiff.

[AtheistCrusader]

166. Suit yourself.

It really is a nice day though, for two people NOT to be sniping at each other. Think of the electrons being wasted over this.

[questionseverything]

170. leaking in 2011,still leaking 2013

the amount of radioactive fuel at Fukushima dwarfs Chernobyl … and so could keep leaking for decades, centuries or millennia.”

[AtheistCrusader]

172. How MUCH of that quantity of fuel is likely to leak?

I mean, seriously, how much of the fuel do you imagine is going to break up and wash away?

Otherwise, why do you keep bringing up THE AMOUNT OF FUEL DWARFS CHERNOBYL... blah

[Safetykitten]

174. Oh dear, looks like your run was interrupted.

[AtheistCrusader]

175. Wrapping some bullshit up before I go.

[Safetykitten]

176. Say, would you want to sponsor me for the cookie sale at the Young Commies would you?

[AtheistCrusader]

177. No cookies.

Trying to lose weight.

[Safetykitten]

178. Suit yourself. I have "Chernobyl Glow Thin-Mints" and "Proletariat Peanut Clusters"

[AtheistCrusader]

182. I do so love thin mints....

[questionseverything]

179. from the new article i posted

” The bottom line is that the reactors have lost containment. There are not “some leaks” at Fukushima. “Leaks” imply that the reactor cores are safely in their containment buildings, and there is a small hole or two which need to be plugged. But scientists don’t even know where the cores of the reactors are. That’s not leaking. That’s even worse than a total meltdown.”

//////////////////////////

hey,i hope this guy is wrong but i have a feeling if the govts knew what to do to fix this..they would of done it by now but since the utility company is now admitting "leaks" i think it is probably as bad as this author says it is

[AtheistCrusader]

180. The corium is outside the RPV, inside the containment. Next question.

Jesus I should get paid for this shit.

DUDE WHERE'S THE CORE?
In the fucking building. Done.

[questionseverything]

185. not according to this sceintist

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/02/nuclear-expert-the-melted-core-cracked-the-containment-vessel-there-really-is-no-containment-at-fukushima-reactors.html

[Safetykitten]

173. Thanks again for the invite. But after the Bull Mastiff, I have to go to the Young Commies Bakesale

[questionseverything]

152. leaking/uncontained

WHAT ABOUT THE ONGOING THREAT OF FUKUSHIMA FALLOUT ?

The Washington Blog posed that same question on April 13, 2013 ~ Is Fukushima Leaking … Or Are the Reactors Wholly Uncontained?

“You may have heard that Tepco ~ the operator of the stricken Fukushima nuclear power plants ~ announced a large leak of radioactive water….. You may have heard that the cooling system in the spent fuel pools at Fukushima has failed for a second time in a month.

This is newsworthy stuff … but completely misses the big picture. Associated Press notes: ” Experts suspect a continuous leak into the ocean through an underground water system, citing high levels of contamination in fish caught in waters just off the plant. (Tepco graphics of the Fukushima plants even appear to show water directly flowing from the plant to the ocean. And see this.) In fact, Japanese experts say that Fukushima is currently releasing up to 93 billion becquerels of radioactive cesium into the ocean each day. ”

How much radiation is that?

“A quick calculation shows that Chernobyl released around ten thousand times more radioactive cesium each day during the reactor fire. But the Chernobyl fire only lasted 10 days … and the Fukushima release has been ongoing for more than 2 years so far. Indeed, Fukushima has already spewed much more radioactive cesium and iodine 131 than Chernobyl. The amount of radioactive cesium released by Fukushima was some 20-30 times higher than initially admitted.

Fukushima also pumped out huge amounts of radioactive iodine 129 ~ which has a half-life of 15.7 million years. Fukushima has also dumped up to 900 trillion becquerels of radioactive strontium-90 ~ which is a powerful internal emitter which mimics calcium and collects in our bones ~ into the ocean. And the amount of radioactive fuel at Fukushima dwarfs Chernobyl … and so could keep leaking for decades, centuries or millennia.”

” The bottom line is that the reactors have lost containment. There are not “some leaks” at Fukushima. “Leaks” imply that the reactor cores are safely in their containment buildings, and there is a small hole or two which need to be plugged. But scientists don’t even know where the cores of the reactors are. That’s not leaking. That’s even worse than a total meltdown.”


http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/05/14/fukushima-fallout-threat-and-cover-up-continues/

[peace13]

140. And a radioactive jet stream! Bonus!

For how long have we been drenched in radioactive rain?

[truedelphi]

207. On the West Coast and Alaska, within

ten days of the event itself.

Here is a very decent website that you might find of interest, if you don't know of it already:

http://fairewinds.org/

[peace13]

243. Thanks for this! Nt

[peace13]

148. The sad thing is that people who were young when the first Earth Day went down...

Understand that all of this was predicted. We were warned. Some of us have worked for a clean planet, spoken out for clean fuel and recycling. It has been a lifetime of concern for the big blue ball we ride on. Unfortunately the corporations and our faux leaders of this country have refused to listen.

The big question is why didn't the world leaders get together and do something about Japan's catastrophic problem when it occurred. The experts in the field told us what was going down but they were ignored and mocked. Go figure.

There are real questions here. There were answers along the way. All of which have been ignored!

[Zorra]

165. Only when the last dollar is eaten will we realize that we cannot eat money.

1979

[truedelphi]

208. That skit is brilliant. Thanks! n/t

[Trillo]

189. "Because the outcome is too horrible to comprehend"?

Probably so.

I was talking to someone I don't know, a friend of a friend, and they started talking about chemtrails, and the danger they are to us. Among other phrases, I said Fukushima was much worse. They disagreed, stating the difference was that Fukushima was an accident, while chemtrails are intentional, thus chemtrails are much worse, and the two could not possibly be compared.

Hey, whatever, I didn't push it with them. It was supposed to be a nice day.

[DeSwiss]

209. K&R

http://enenews.com/gizmodo-entirely-possible-leaking-nuclear-material-fukushima-going-canada-bloomberg-fish-contamination-concerns-spread-beyond-japan

http://enenews.com/senior-japan-officials-nuclear-material-flowing-into-ocean-a-grave-matter-situation-at-fukushima-is-deplorable-video

[Indyfan53]

210. People here don't give a shit about our own land.

All of these oil spills recently haven't been given enough attention. We're screwed if we have an event similar to Fukishima here and the people are just as apathetic.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

212. Just how much radioactive waste was released by these 2053 tests

worldwide and what was the results to all of us living now?
Click on the map and let this soak into your brain, do some critical thinking.

http://www.projectforthectbt.org/hashimotomultimedia

[locks]

215. Chernobyl and the Gulf Coast

Please do more research if you think the Gulf is cleaned up and the ocean floor, the fish, animals and people are ok. Also read some of the recent reports from Chernobyl such as Henry Shukman's Chernobyl, My Primeval, Teeming, Irradiated Eden, in Best American Travel Writing. Along with the many scientists' reports on Fukushima that belie what the Japanese government puts out. Yes, it takes a long time to destroy a beautiful planet but Hiroshima, Chernobyl, the spread of the Sahel, the most destructive earthquakes, tsunamis and wildfires, the melting of glaciers, the largest oil spills, and the warming of much of the planet have all happened in my lifetime.

[emsimon33]

217. I suspect that no one knows exactly how to stop the poisoning

So rather than get the best brains working on a solution, the media and our government (and others in the world) downplay the significance.

I had my hair tested because the well water I drink has arsenic which the filter is suppose to filter, but I just wanted to see how much was being filtered out.

The test came back showing that there was very little arsenic present in my hair sample but there was evidence of Fukishima. The report noted that this was now common among hair samples from people on the west coast of the U.S. This was two years ago. Who knows how much more would be present in a hair sample taken today!

I am beginning to suspect that the 1% are simply letting such catastrophes slowly thin the herd of humans.

[hopemountain]

219. plenty of people do give a shit

just not enough people to make the disaster disappear along with all of the radioactivity and the horror that it means for all of the things - creatures, places, and people who are contaminated and suffering the consequences.

when things are really, really too horrible to imagine, the brain shuts out the trauma so that one can continue breathing and strive for survival.

[Safetykitten]

220. Well kids, it kinda breaks down like this...

There is a very vocal group that feels that this is an acceptable price to pay for what we do as humans to live the way we do. Nothing will sway them, nothing will make them change their mind. But of course this group would never move to Japan because apparently they have food allergies.

The vocal group will always try to shout down the people who care, like the others on this posting that although they are traumatized by this massive planetary fuck up, still do care, and are probably scared like me for what we do and cannot accept as normal now, and what our children will have to live with.

[JEB]

221. Nice summation. You can't see it, or smell it...

[freshwest]

222. I have always been against nukes for basic reasons. Science. Security. Stupidity.

There are no winners.

[sulphurdunn]

224. Nuclear reactors are dooms day machines.

How insane is it to start machines you can't turn off that can destroy your world?

[Gravitycollapse]

232. You can easily turn off nuclear reactors. Positive void reactors can even shut off on their own.

[sulphurdunn]

248. That's good to know.

I guess there's nothing to worry about at Fukushima because they just haven't turned it off yet. So, anytime we want to shut down a reactor we can hit the off switch, disconnect the external electrical power and it will just harmlessly sit there along with all of it's spent fuel rods until we figure out what to do with it.

[Silent3]

225. Can anyone try to back you down from extreme hyperbole...

...without being accused of the diametric opposite, of believing everything is hunky dory, of being a shill or a dupe for the nuclear industry, and not giving a fuck about the planet?

Is this an all or nothing proposition? Light your hair on fire so the flames reach at least as high as mine, or get the hell out of here you planet-destroying pawn of TPTB?

[JDPriestly]

230. At least you are admitting you were wrong.

We should gradually close all our nuclear plants and figure out something safe (if there is such a thing) to do with the nuclear waste. Nuclear energy is a horror story that will be told only when our great-grandchildren arrive.

[Gravitycollapse]

233. Nuclear energy is perfectly safe assuming it's not overseen by morons.

Maybe that truly is too great a risk. But I have slightly more faith in humanity than that.

[JDPriestly]

236. I don't have more faith in humanity than that.

I've lived too long and seen too much stupidity to think that humans can handle nuclear energy for the long, long time, longer than a lifetime, until it is no longer dangerous.

[Gravitycollapse]

238. Considering nuclear energy is safer per terawatt/hour than any other form of energy production...

You might want to recalibrate your position.

[JDPriestly]

250. How can you insure that it is safe for my great-great-great grandchildren?

What if they don't have the scientific understanding that we do today? What if they are trying to piece together existence on our planet after most of the natural resources have been used by our growing population of humans?

The nuclear waste will be dangerous for a very, very long time. The solar panels won't. I live in Southern California. We have enough sun to create energy for a lot of people for a very long time. We do not need nuclear energy in Southern California. We need, instead, to invest the money we spend on nuclear energy in solar structures. We need solar panels on all homes. And people who put them on their roofs should be paid for excess energy that their panels produce.

[Sirveri]

234. They don't give a shit because there was no visible impact.

And really, how is this worse than the Chinese above ground nuclear weapons testing in Sinkiang, which dropped fallout all over the US? The above ground US nuclear tests which dropped fallout all over the Eastern seaboard? The routine USN releases of steam directly from the primary coolant system and other unfiltered overboard discharges that nobody talks about or cares about?

Not a major effect on the populace, life goes on, people still grow and eat food and have babies.

[darkangel218]

235. "life goes on, people still grow and eat food and have babies."

Umm.. two headed babies, frankenfoods, and tyroid cancers.

Yup, nothing to see here, move along.

[Sirveri]

241. Where are those items?

Do we have large numbers of two headed babies being born in America?
By Frankenfoods, I assume you mean radioactively contaminated foods. Yes, we found a couple of tuna, do you have any evidence of widespread food contamination in the US?
Thyroid cancers due to nuclear radiation exposure are caused by radio iodine, which has a half life of 8 days. The meltdown and release happened over two years ago. Do you have any evidence of a rise of thyroid cancer clusters on the US west coast? How long should we wait?

Nothing showing up in large numbers, life goes on, and it will go on. This is not the end of the world. The sky is not falling.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

242. even the southern hemisphere is going to be effected by this....

We are doomed

[Eleanors38]

251. Because that glowing wad has yet to splash beneath us.