About this vaginal ultrasound bill in Virginia

[Proud Liberal Dem]

I was listening to the Diane Rehm show this morning and there was a representative, presumably of one of a number of anti-abortion organizations, supporting the mandatory ultrasound bill (of course) and arguing that, since Planned Parenthood of Virginia already requires ultrasounds to be performed prior to performing an abortion, she didn't understand what all of the ruckus was about. Another woman on the program, speaking from the "pro-choice" side, was saying that abortion providers are encouraged(?) to perform ultrasounds prior to an abortion but that it isn't always done. Wouldn't doing an ultrasound be necessary part of providing abortion services? Is what Virginia proposing something new and extraordinary? Is it that Virginia is trying to make it mandatory for women to VIEW the ultrasound?

[sinkingfeeling]

1. Since the majority of abortions are D&C's, why would there be a need for

an ultrasound? I had an abortion at 4 weeks into a pregnancy back in 1975 and there were no ultrasounds.

[AngryAmish]

2. Are not all early pregnancy ultrasounds done this way?

My wife's were.

[Chorophyll]

4. Yes, but...

...it's one thing to become pregnant and have a transvaginal ultrasound done to make sure everything is okay (that the embryo is implanted in the right place, for example.)

It's something else entirely to have the procedure mandated by the state just because you want to terminate a pregnancy. There is no medical need for this, and it's incredibly invasive. Particularly for someone who might not have become pregnant under the most pleasant cirumstances.

[AngryAmish]

5. Of course. That was not my point.

I was just curious if the kind with the wand on the outside was possible this early.

[Ilsa]

8. Not everyone gets an early ultrasound.

Early on, they usually just pick up fetal heart tones and do an external ultrasound later. Most women don't have a transvaginal ultrasound early in pregnancy unless the dr suspects a problem.

A transvaginal ultrasound device is also used to detect ovarian cysts, and ovarian follicles (eggs maturing and being released) for harvesting or intrauterine fertilization procedures, etc.

[Chorophyll]

12. Oh, sorry. I did misunderstand you.

The over-the-belly ultrasound will not show a first-trimester fetus. Generally they start using it at around 20 weeks.

ETA: in my case, I had a couple of ultrasounds early in my pregnancy because I miscarried the first time around. It's amazing technology -- it was very comforting to see that everything was going well. But again, freaking invasive and only a totalitarian state would mandate such a thing.

[kestrel91316]

3. Sometimes it's done, sometimes it's not. The point here is that this is a MEDICAL

matter to be discussed and decided by a woman and her physician, and not dictated regardless of actual need by meddling busybodies.

[etherealtruth]

17. Exactly n/t

[Proud Liberal Dem]

6. Thanks for the replies/clarifications

n/t

[russspeakeasy]

7. I've never had a vagina..I'm sure as hell not getting one now !

[Ilsa]

9. The RW excuse for the procedure is to "inform"

the woman of the procedure, although I fail to see how this informs them.

Women who have been forced to have it done report feeling compelled to change their minds, but usually don't.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

10. based on what the anti-abortion rep was saying

that seems to be what it boils down to. Basically, they believe that once a woman is forced to see the developing fetus that they will inevitably change their mind and not have an abortion. I guess that they believe that women are "sentimental" and ruled by their emotions like that. The way anti-abortion organizers treat women as though they can't make rational, informed decisions is I think what really frustrates me. I have no doubt that there are probably some women whom do regret having abortion and it can be a difficult thing for some women to deal with but we all sometimes make decisions that has bad consequences that we wind up regretting, so.............. Women IMHO should be treated as though they are fully capable of making those kind of adult decisions for themselves.

[rustydog]

11. It is a required procedure proposed by Republican men against physician wishes, patient wishes.

The forced insertion of ANYTHING in a woman's vagina, anus, mouth, ear whatever, against her wishes is RAPE. plain and simple.
The Governor of Virginia just learned this and is presently slightly backing off of his ultra conservative, fundamentalist christian vow to sign the forced rape bill into law.

This man is so twisted. if you have not seen Rachel maddow's coverage on him yesterday, you need to find it. This guy has 15 things he wants to do fundamentally, Chriatianly, hatefully....He is a twisted bastard. He was for rape until the people started screaming at him, now he is "thinking his stance over."

[slackmaster]

13. It's more than an ordinary KY-on-your-belly type of happy fun tickly ultrasound

In the trans-vaginal scan, an ultrasonic transducer is inserted into the vagina, and rather deeply I imagine.

[Chorophyll]

14. Yes, and the idea that a state government thinks it's okay to mandate such a thing

just shows how far we've crept toward totalitarianism.

[Kellerfeller]

15. I'm having trouble seeing why this is the issue it is.

The bill doesn't specify the transvaginal. If that is the real crux of the issue, why doesn't someone amend the bill to explicity NOT require a transvaginal.

If that is not the crux of the issue, that's fine, carry on.

[RainDog]

16. an inserted device is the only way to detect a blastocyte or embryo

the overwhelming majority of abortions occur before it is possible to see an embryo via an ultrasound.

therefore, the legislators in VA want a law that allows the state to forcibly rape women with a metal object before an abortion.

Republicans in VA have already responded to this by saying that a woman already agreed to have something inserted into her vagina when she got pregnant.

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2012/02/virginia_ultrasound_law_women_who_want_an_abortion_will_be_forcibly_penetrated_for_no_medical_reason.html

Beyond a politician trying to slut shame someone... who may have been raped, etc... this lawmaker is saying that once a woman has given consent to a male to be penetrated, the state may assume that she may be forcibly penetrated from that moment onward in the case of an unplanned pregnancy.

It's not only WOMEN who are forced to participate in this religious attack - doctors do not want to do this b/c it's not medically necessary.

This is a DISGUSTING display of hatred toward women by religious fanatics.

[Kellerfeller]

18. I understand that in order to REALLY

see what is going on, the trans-vaginal would be needed. However, if/since the law doesn't state a transvaginal is needed, wouldn't the jelly-on-belly method suffice AND also make the point that the fetus is too small to even see?

[RainDog]

24. But that doesn't serve the purpose of the proposed bill

which is why the author of the same is pulling it now.

either that or she learned that she wanted to impose felony rape on women as part of Republican ideology.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002339172

[Kellerfeller]

26. The purpose of the bill doesn't matter

the words included in it do.

[RainDog]

27. the bill was amended

so that transvaginal ultrasounds were excluded (because, again, this bill would then conflict with the felony rape definition - i.e. insertion of an object into another person against his or her will.

but the purpose of the bill was to violate women, the majority of whom have abortions before a transabdominal ultrasound would show anything to view.

so, because the Republican woman who sponsored the bill could not get other legislators to agree to felony rape of women, she withdrew the bill.

so, the purpose does matter - the purpose was to rape women who sought abortions. when that purpose could not be accomplished, the amendment was shelved.

[csziggy]

21. The issue is that "small government" Republicans are REQUIRiNG and unnecessary medical procedure

And forcing women to pay for it.

I don't care if it is the trans vaginal rape version or the outside of the belly ultrasound, it is NOT medically necessary in order to have an abortion.

One state legislator proposed that all men getting prescriptions for drugs to assist men in maintaining erection be required to get digital penetration checkups. Although some doctors think those could be recommended they are not currently considered medically necessary.

So how would you like a doctor stick a finger in your rectum solely because it is dictated by the state and not for any medical reason?

[Kellerfeller]

25. Not a great person to ask

I was in the military and was probed occasionally just because the timeline said to.

But I think the "unnecessary medical procedure" is a much stronger argument unless the transvaginal claim is in the law.

[knitter4democracy]

20. Not deeply if done right.

It actually isn't supposed to go in very far if it's done right. When I was assaulted during a trans-vaginal ultrasound, the tech put the wand in as far as it would go (and worse), and because I'd had one before, I knew it was wrong. I was in so much pain, though, that I couldn't talk or scream or anything. It was awful--yes, this kind of ultrasound can be traumatic, and anyone saying differently can kiss my ass.

[NotThisTime]

19. Well, now it's just funny... the Governor backed off, it will just be the over the belly kind, and

for miscarriages too... Like a woman having a miscarriage isn't in most cases already distraught... If I'd had a miscarriage I would have lost my mind and I wouldn't have needed an ultrasound to lose it....

I fail to see how that informs anyone of anything, this whole notion is beyond disgusting to me as a woman. These decisions are best kept between a woman and her doctor, not the Government.

[ohheckyeah]

22. For a miscarriage?

What? Where did you see that?

[RainDog]

23. Republicans think women are sluts

and should be humiliated and hurt if they are sexually active, it seems... even when those women are married.

Republicans are the enemies of women - they have created a coalition that includes the American equivalent of the taliban.

Fiscal conservatives should demonstrate they have some ethics and should not vote for any Republican who does not speak out against this hatred of females.

The American taliban comes by their hatred as part of their worldview. For fiscal conservatives to allow them to exercise any power in this nation by making deals with them is far more repulsive - they know better.