I'm Sorry... But I Am MUCH MORE Afraid Of An Out Of Control Surveillance/Police State...

[WillyT]

Than I am of terrorists.

Ya know...

[midnight]

1. The lawlessness is getting so blurry that the two seem to be merging, and no one seems accountable.

[Baitball Blogger]

18. I think there are too many balls in the air to juggle.

Because the FBI was out hunting terrorists they slacked off on white collar crime and many of our communities reverted back to the fifties where city governments were taken over by the "elitist" core in town. In Florida, that may have started with landowners and lawyers, but it quickly opened up to the usual suspects you find hanging around the chamber of commerce. These are not your standard constitutional stalwarts, (In fact, they benefited when there was no one around to reinforce our Constitution, which is what happened when the FBI and other agencies were out breaking the rules themselves.)

Yeah. At first blush I would say we're pretty screwed.

[matthews]

50. Well that would explain why they didn't try to bust Wall Street. The snooping sure

didn't/doesn't seem to have had much affect on detecting massive criminal fraud, drug money laundering, or interest rate rigging does it?

[Baitball Blogger]

54. We definitely are experiencing a complete collapse in our society.

It will probably continue until they can no longer use ploys to bribe the "right" people and the mainstream loses all its trust in government. When that happens, they will no longer be manipulated by fear tactics.

If we don't have Constitutionalists at the head of the correction of this problem, I fear the alternative.

[silvershadow]

89. I'm with you guys...unfortunately I p****d a lot of people off here. Glad to see see kindred souls.

[RC]

55. Seem to be merging?

What came first the CIA or the Terrorist? Is there really a difference?

[NightWatcher]

2. I'm more afraid of going broke, dying from my disease, e coli, bears, paper cuts...

than I am of the NSA doing something they've already been doing for more than 15 years without casualty or issue.

[think]

4. Stephen Colbert don''t trust those bears either....

[darkangel218]

8. paper cuts

[AnotherMcIntosh]

37. You can trust NSA employees to do the right thing just as much as these employees:

I am more concerned about the upcoming generation than going broke, dying, e coli, bears, paper cuts ...

[villager]

77. +1

Those damn scary bears!

Totalitarians are much more reassuring!

[Brewinblue]

58. "without casualty or issues"

Yeah, because certainly they would keep us informed. And, as long as you don't immediately suffer, it doesn't exist. So who could give a fuck!

[4bucksagallon]

69. LOL, yep paranoia is what we have now, I'm guessing there are a lot of people........

that are into illegal activities from the level of fear that is evident here. Nahh that can't be true.........or can it?

[bvar22]

102. If you got nothing to hide, you got nothing to fear!!!

Right?

[Eric J in MN]

97. The FISA court has all judges appointed by Chief Justice John Reports.

The court keeps expanding the power of the NSA.

[lark]

104. Without casualty or issue?

ARe you sure of that? I'm certainly not! I think Elliott Spitzer was a victim and would bet there's lots more that we never know about because the ptb don't want the hoi poloi to know what they're really up to.

First they came for the jews
Then they came for the communists
Then they came for the gypsies
Then they came for me
is true here too.

[NuclearDem]

3. But...what about the terrorists?

Yes, the terrorists! Who are conspiring with...Hitler! And the Legion of Doom! To assassinate Jesus. And getting yellowcake uranium from...unwed teenage mothers!

[Bully Taw]

44. yeah

terrorists don't exist. They are made up to scare people. Like the Bogeyman.

[Blanks]

70. That makes sense. We needed someone to scare the boogeyman. eom

[Fawke Em]

101. SNORT!!!

I literally LOLed.

[FiveGoodMen]

5. Me, too!

[Dawgs]

6. No worries. Hillary will reverse all of those things you're worried about.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

33. Something to look forward to. Of course, if she doesn't, Jeb Bush will.

[MineralMan]

7. I'm not afraid of terrorists, either, personally.

I'm almost never anywhere I'd be a target. I suspect the same applies to you.

However, terrorists have, and will, be a danger to many people, who are in such places. I'm concerned for them.

As for being under surveillance, that I am posting here shows my level of concern about that, which is approximately zero.

However, others may be under surveillance. I'm concerned for them.

[dickthegrouch]

30. I hesitate to say this, but

>> I'm almost never anywhere I'd be a target. I suspect the same applies to you.

I have been within 100 yards of where terror attacks were carried out too many times for comfort in my 50+ years. I should point out that the attack was never carried out at the same time I was there, the closest in time that any of those attacks occurred was one year after. I don't go to dangerous places as far as I'm aware. But the point is that we NEVER know where the targets are; that's the unsettling point about terrorism.

[MineralMan]

32. Well, it's far more likely that you'll be in the vicinity of some

violent crime as it is happening than a terrorist attack. Yet, we go where we want every day.

The odds against either of those things happening are in favor of the individual. Those odds improve even more if you're not in the habit of going to places where large numbers of people congregate or where the government owns the place.

Even so, most people in the United States have a near-zero probability of being involved in any terrorist action, whatever they do, or wherever they go.

The odds are similarly low of being surveiled by a government agency as a specific target, regardless of what you post in public or say in private, unless what you post or say is a serious threat of some kind.

Those are simply the facts.

[JDPriestly]

45. To say nothing of car or bicycle crashes which are far more common and can cause severe

injuries.

[MineralMan]

47. Yes, of course. Those are even more likely.

Thanks.

[sabrina 1]

86. A friend's daughter was killed on 9/11. She is more afraid of our government than she

is of Terrorists. She went very public with her views about Bush and his phony war on terror as did many of the victims of 9/11. She totally opposed the Iraq War and never believed the lies we were told, nor did anyone here that I recall.

I was near enough to NYC and had dozens of friends who were very close, working in buildings nearby and having to evacuate on that day. We could not contact them for days as the phones were all cut off. But NOT ONE OF THEM is buying this War on Terror. Many have lost loved ones since then, from deseases like cancer they could not afford to get treatment for. Or from accidents etc.

There have been terror attacks throughout history. No one goes to 'war' because of a terror attack, let alone several of them.

And apparently our trillion dollar wars and surveillance programs have failed completely because, we are told, we are in more danger than ever.

Considering they've had 12 years to stop a relatively small group of extremists, it seems to me the whole thing was nothing but a money pit from the tax payers to Military and Security Contractors.

The odds of being hit by a terror attack are so miniscule compared to say, dying for lack of Health Care (at least half a Million Americans since 9/11) that people are way more concerned about what is more likely to be a threat to them.

It's been a great racket though for mercenaries and contractors and Dick Cheney and his pals.

[MineralMan]

94. A friend of mine died on 9/11.

The question is whether people are more afraid of terrorism or of the government's suveillance/police state. I suppose some are afraid of one or the other. I answered that I'm afraid of neither, and for logical reasons. I'm much more afraid of driving to the supermarket than I am of either of those possibilities. I simply look at the odds of things happening.

Everyone makes his or her own decisions about being afraid of things. My friend died in the World Trade Center. I've had other friends die in auto accidents, from diseases, and other reasons. None of those death stimulated me to fear anything in particular. I still drive my car, despite that being the highest risk activity I engage in. I still climb up on a stepladder to clean my gutters, even though that's far more dangerous than the government being capable of monitoring my communications. I call the police when something suspicious is going on in my neighborhood, and never worry about being a victim of police violence when they respond.

You fear whatever it is you fear. Are your fears justified? In most cases, they are not, really.

[sabrina 1]

106. I fear what all Democracies need to fear, the removal of the rights that were so hard-fought for

Of course there are those who are willing to just hand them over in exchange for false promises of 'security', there always have been.

Land of the Fearful. No, although as Goebbels, infamous propagandist and expert on the Politics of Fear stated, 'all you have to do is keep the people fearful'.

Or words to that effect. Apathy is even worse of course, the 'I don't care either way' contingency, who of course DO care, is more of a threat than anything to this democracy.

[treestar]

9. I'm not afraid of either

Don't see either happening. When it comes to terror attacks, they are rare. The odds favor me. But I do feel bad for the actual victims anyway.

If it didn't happen under Bushco, it's not happening. Bush and Cheney were uniquely evil. Even if a Republican gets into the WH with a Repuke Congress, they're not going to have a totalitarian state. They'll just kill social programs and try to start new wars.

The illogical things about spying on us all the time over everything is not to the advantage of anyone. Even the evil 1% has better ways to get what they want than to waste time figuring out what everyone is thinking. They have polls and focus groups, commercials, etc. all they need to get us to buy their stuff.

[kelliekat44]

10. BINGO!!! nt

[uponit7771]

62. amen

[rhett o rick]

76. LOL. Your argument is that the 1% doesnt need to spy, therefore they arent spying.

That wins the lamest argument ever contest. But, ding-dong, it appears that they are spying and spending taxpayer dollars to the tune of tens of fucking billions. Just because you cant figure out why doesnt mean they arent.

I have an idea. Why dont you just climb back into your denial shell and pretend that Gen Clapper loves you. Gen Alexander loves you. Mueller and Comey also. They are looking out for your best interest. Trust them. By-the-way Dickhead Cheney loves them. I guess I can see why you love them also. Your authoritarian daddys will tuck you into bed and keep the bad guys away.

You are willing to give up your freedom for a PROMISE of security. Ben Franklin says shame on you.

[treestar]

99. The 1% don't need the government for that

Even if they had the government corruptly do it for them. The 1% are the ones with the data. The ones who give it to the government, because they kept it for their commercial purposes.

They know all about you via your credit report, just for starters. They kept that data and with computers can do it on hyper mode. You gave it to them because you wanted to buy a car, etc.

The government knows all about your finances from your tax returns.

Yet they still haven't managed to create a police state. Go figure.

[rhett o rick]

105. I recommend that you read the link.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023411559

Jump in and enter the discussion.

Particularly good:

They say we shouldn’t worry about these secret searches because the government never does anything wrong. But officials can use the results of these searches to punish their critics or intimidate employees and reporters from blowing the whistle on government waste, fraud, law-breaking, kidnapping, torture, cruel detentions, or the killing of citizens by drone in foreign lands. Embarrassing information can also be used to destroy the reputations of whistleblowers like Daniel Ellsberg and anti-Wall Street politicians like New York Governor Eliot Spitzer..

.

[Tikki]

11. You can't be a terrorist without doing a terrorist action.

Tikki

[KittyWampus]

12. I"m not really afraid of either.

[rhett o rick]

78. Ahhh the bliss. nm

[rhett o rick]

82. I notice that you and your friends dont like to jump into real issues. Here is a post that

doesnt reflect on your Obama. But not a single one of you guys post. Now why is that? Are you here for a single purpose? To defend Obama?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023406830

I never see you guys discussing issues unless you are defending the president. What are you afraid of? Seriously, what are you afraid of?

[KittyWampus]

83. Dear Rhett, if you were to search DU v.1 and DU v.2 you'd find plenty of my posts on this issue.

I have pretty much stopped posting in threads about S. and the NSA.

I think you have a warped view of my posting here on DU.

Here is one post from earlier this year on the topic of Water Rights being bought up:

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/10022880458

I also leave DU for long stretches of time and take breaks.

[iamthebandfanman]

91. Wait, you have a life outside of DU!?!

How dare you be more than a keyboard commando!!

All the cool kids are doing these days , you know.

[rhett o rick]

96. This wasnt aimed at you. I know you discuss issues.

I am curious about the agenda of what seems to me to be a specific group that wont discuss issues unless they are defending Obama. Oh yes, they will disparage the left, but not explain what specific issues the left supports that they dont support. They wont tell what their principles are. They certainly arent here to unite the DEmocrats.

[KittyWampus]

85. Oh, and if you are concerned about water rights being bought up, research T. Boone Pickens

I may have forgotten more about this issue than you will ever know.

http://www.businessweek.com/stories/2008-06-11/there-will-be-water
http://newsok.com/t.-boone-pickens-sells-water-rights-to-texas-water-supplier-for-103-million/article/3579874

[rhett o rick]

95. That's all swell but didnt answer my question. I am guessing that these very outspoken

posters (when it comes to defending Obama) are afraid to pick a side on issues that Obama hasnt committed on. It might upset their primary objective here. Just a guess. I am open to other explanations.

[Puzzledtraveller]

13. But High level AlQaeda operatives are in place!!

Willy, you need to hide, NOW!!!

[RC]

57. And once a terrorist survives to be #1, they are invincible. With super human powers.

X-Ray vision even. No one can hide for long.

[ProSense]

14. Fear sells! n/t

[Andy823]

93. Yes it does

And it also works to get people to buy into BS. Bush and company used "fear" to get what they wanted, a war in Iraq for one. Republicans have used fear for ages to try and "scare" people into voting for them because democrats would not protect them. Ron and Rand Paul use "fear" to try and get people to believe they will "fix" the country, but in reality they would do more harm than good. The trolls here on DU use fear to divide the posters, and that seems to be working pretty good also.

If people want to "fear" something they should "fear" the idea of republicans getting control of congress and the WH. That should scare the shit out of anyone with half a brain. And if you really, really want to fear something fear the idea of Rand Paul getting into the WH! That would be worse than anything you could imagine!

[Dawson Leery]

15. "NSA handing over non-terror intelligence"

http://www.sfgate.com/default/article/NSA-handing-over-non-terror-intelligence-4706227.php

[malaise]

16. As my younger siblings says

It's complicated because I am no longer sure who are the terrorists because a lot of contractors are making a hell of a lot of money from this business of terrorism and the people who lobby on their behalf appear to be bawling terror the most.

I am fugging confused - really!

[think]

17. I'm more afraid of The Carlyle Group & The Company they keep....

[Zorra]

19. But, but...WillyT! You need to watch this!

[midnight]

64. This is all any prosecutor has to recite to have anyone charged with anything they want-Mission

Accomplished.....

[Junkdrawer]

20. I think we're one mass casualty event away from the kind of Police State we all fear....

You know: a "catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor."

You can't invade Syria or Iran without one.

[MisterP]

38. if you got a sufficiently charismatic leader who can delay and mute any reaction,

who has enough people saying they'll support him no matter what he does, to whom opposition to which will get you banned from boards that were up in arms about such actions 2001-9--you can probably skip the PNAC Event on CIA passports...
probably

[Junkdrawer]

40. My understanding is that many, including Kerry, wanted a no fly zone, Obama didn't....

he wanted to use Turkey, and then Egypt as a proxy force. Those options have fallen through. The FSA is now getting their ass handed to them.

That's why the timing of all this is ominous.

[AZ Progressive]

21. Especially when you have police like this

[Enthusiast]

61. The officer seems nice.

[snappyturtle]

81. Awful. nt

[dmr]

22. I hear ya!

There's no doubt in my mind that severe abuses will take place.

We already know the evil that men like Lee Atwater, Cheney, Rove, Murdoch, Ailes, etc, can and will do. We know what the money men like the Koch Bros, Addelson, and Polk can and will do.

It's a very frightening thought on how devious men will betray the Constitution and their fellow countrymen.

It's very frightening to think about what foreign entities could do with any of this info. They want to do this to fight terrorism?

Imagine if foreign entities hacked this info and turned it against us.

Imagine buying or having or hacking access?

[99th_Monkey]

23. THE WHOLE “TERRORIST” MEME IS A NEO-FASCIST COUP D’ETAT

We really have no good excuse. We should have known. I mean, after all, there was a prophetic book, first published in 1949, called “1984”, which is one year before the 1985 release of a Terry Gilliam movie, entitled “Brazil”. Just these two sources alone should have been our first two clues: we are being “had” by shadowy sinister forces flying under the glitzy “Anti-Terrorism” banners.

[Puzzledtraveller]

28. Politics is just the ruse

While the hidden hand moves pieces on a global chess board. At the top of the tower there are no democrats, republicans, right or left, just power hungry maniacs.

[90-percent]

36. Don't forget the mid 70's movie "Network"

It also did a great job foretelling a corporate controlled future. Rollerball of that era was also prescient.

-90% Jimmy

[WillyT]

26. Well There Is THAT...

[think]

29. Yup....

[Dreamer Tatum]

25. That's OK. I forgive you. You probably can't help it. nt

[GiaGiovanni]

27. They're just rolling all this stuff out

So much of it has been behind the scenes

[SleeplessinSoCal]

31. What would you do when the threats to the government escalate from the radical right?

Between Militias, the NRA, and the Tea Party, and the growing number of threats to the president and all of government, we've found ourselves in a vicious circle. Who stops first? Those threatening harm or those looking for those threatening harm?

[frazzled]

34. Why are you afraid of anything?

I'm not afraid of either thing (as has been stated upthread). Which doesn't mean that I don't think either that (a) we need to revisit the laws regarding intelligence gathering, in light of the new technological age; or (b) that we need to be vigillant to potential acts of terrorism.

Fear is not an appropriate reaction to either terrorism or surveillance. Trying to fear monger here does not solve any problems.

[90-percent]

35. Your fears are well grounded

In basic logic, facts and mathematics.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1017&pid=123706

The chances of my own government wrecking my life are about 100,000% greater than my being a victim of a terrorist attack.

I AM NOT AFRAID OF TERRORISTS

Rationally, there's a whole lot of other stuff that's going to get me before a terrorist attack. Hell, I'm overweight. That alone has got a tremendously higher probability of killing me than a fucking terrorist! Yet I still find myself going through the Burger King drive through now and then.

As I've seen Thom Hartmann quoted here, more Americans die in bathroom accidents each year than died in the 9-11 attacks. Where oh where are our government total safety awareness surveillance programs for the death traps that are modern American bathrooms?

I demand NSA operated helicopter drones hover outside my bathrooms 24/7 to monitor any potential dangerous activity happening inside my bathrooms!

After all, all our elected officials took an oath to keep us safe!

-90% Jimmy

[City Lights]

39. So am I.

[Catherina]

41. You know it's all fucked up when this is the cover of the Economist

[Hydra]

74. If ever there was a marker... n/t

[xchrom]

42. du rec.

[Hubert Flottz]

43. Me Also.

About like the communist police state was in East Germany and Poland. Secret Police and all.

Government encouraging, even rewarding your neighbors to spy on you. Bugging your home and even arrests and imprisonment without trial. Your mailman and meter readers spying on you, all your communications to the outside world being compromised. A fence all the way across our southern border. The pentagon using the media to pump out the states propaganda. The military or military equipment being used to break up lawful, peaceful, demonstrations. Our government has used their new pearl harbor/9/11, to complete their Iron Curtainization of the United States of America. A grand plan that has been in the works since FDR, IMHO. I wonder if David Rockefeller and his ilk's "new world order" is not going to turn out to be, totally as bad as Mr. Stalin's was.

"Managing the Human Herd," is not a new idea.(google it) Domination by the few,(the 1%) leads to the damnation and the downfall of constructive, peaceful, civilization and democracy. Don't believe me...look at all the examples from the dawn of civilization. America became a "Superpower" because of our freedom to think for ourselves. That freedom is under constant attack, by the very government we pay our taxes to. The very government we send our children off to fight and die for. Trust is on the verge of extinction in America, like it once was behind the Iron Curtain and for many of the same reasons. How many Americans would like to get out, like the East Germans once died trying to do, if there was a better place to go? A place where your milk, egg and butter men, aren't government encouraged spies. A place where you trusted your neighbors like Americans did 75 years ago.

[gtar100]

46. I'm with you on that. But we wouldn't have these issues

if the agencies actually took their roles seriously and stopped using them for excuses to take advantage of people for power and money. Of course, if American corporations didn't go around the world exploiting people and resources for their own personal gain at the cost of great suffering, there probably wouldn't be much of a threat of terrorism to begin with. But where is the profit in that! These people would have to resort to making an honest living and solving real problems.

[Tab]

48. They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

- Benjamin Franklin

[matthews]

49. The loss of our rights and our privacy mean that they won. We sure didn't win

anything with this shit.

[Drunken Irishman]

51. Ya know, I'm not really afraid of either.

[toby jo]

52. They've just got too much money. Defunding them is the start.

We've got to make the size of their budget, black as well as white, a household number. Everybody needs to know.

Put that number up against what we spend on infrastructure, schools, eradicating poverty, food stamps, health care, etc.

[Rex]

53. I'm not afraid of either one, just dissapointed in the Federal government.

I expect these kind of moves in Russia, not the Land of the Free (tm).

[JI7]

56. i'm not afraid of either of them

[Little Star]

59. I'm with ya on that! k&r

[JaneyVee]

60. What state do you live in? City? Town?

[WillyT]

63. What Does That Have To Do With The Violations Of The Bill Of Rights ?

Are you more, or less, American... depending on where you live in the country?

[rhett o rick]

80. Another of the blissful speaks out in defense of the big daddy authoritarian state.

Plez choose the side of freedom and liberty and not the side of Gen Clapper (a f'in Repuke) and the authoritarian state.

[BlueManFan]

65. I Guess This Line of Inquiry is Okay As Long As You Don't Hate America.....

[marble falls]

66. Gotta agree. I fear the Teabillies, the Teapublicans, survivalists "militias" almost as much.

[uhnope]

67. half agree. I am not really afraid at all of the "surveillance state"

but I'm really bothered by the militarization of the police and how they use SWAT tactics for any reasons, by the roadside genital-checks in Texas, by medical marijuana users spending years in prison and having their children taken away, by people of color experiencing a police state every day in some places. That's why I didn't buy into the Snowden worship and Greenwald fandom--those issues (and their questionable existence) are way down the list and serve to distract from more important issues.

[bvar22]

103. They are part of the same monster.

You don't get one without the other.

[MotherPetrie]

68. Me too.

[Blue_In_AK]

71. Me, too, WillyT.

[99Forever]

72. "Terrorists" are the boogyman of the day.

Just another excuse to pour money down the rathole that is the MIC.

They can go ratfuck themselves for all I care.

[HiPointDem]

84. today's terrorists = cold war communists = turn of the century anarchists. gotta have an

official enemy to keep the populace in line

[Blue Owl]

73. The enemy is calling... From INSIDE the house!

[libodem]

75. Yep

I'm with you.

[daleanime]

79. Amen....

[blkmusclmachine]

87. The terr'ists are in DC?

Hmmm...

[Warren DeMontague]

88. So you're going to hobble law enforcement when they try to keep us safe from pot smokers?

You would do that.

[blackspade]

90. No doubt.

I have absolutely no fear of foreign terrorists.
Domestic terrorists in the form of RW lunatics and government agents on the other hand.....

[EC]

92. I'm guessing the employees

of the embassies feel the opposite.

There are all kinds of Americans to protect, we're not the only ones on the planet.

[whatchamacallit]

98. The Orwellian Dystopia they've been assembling for us since 9/11 is the true terror

Everything else is theater.

[Fawke Em]

100. Me, too.