Do you blame people who have fallen for insidious and incessant lying propaganda?

[Fumesucker]

Trying to make sense of what's going on in the world through the squealing of the Bubbleheaded Bleachblondes in the M$M is a preposterously difficult chore, even if you can ignore the distractions the sheer volume of noise almost overwhelms the tiny signal of halfway accurate information. That's even assuming you are not overwhelmed by trying to make your way in this increasingly dystopic society we seem to be boiling down to the lowest common global denominator.

We talk here a lot about people who vote against their own best interests, I think in a lot of cases these are people who have naively fallen for propaganda that never stops, comes from all directions and is carefully tweaked to play on their fears and their prejudices.

Honestly I often feel more sorry for them than anything else, almost like those poor deluded people at Jonestown or Heaven's Gate. My attitude has changed completely from six years ago, then I was angry at them but now I walk away gently shaking my head after talking to them.

It's not like I have a lot of wealthy connections, everyone I know is struggling to get by but I can depend on running into someone who's about two paychecks from utter disaster but will nonetheless regurgitate 1% talking points straight from the M$M with almost no prompting on my part.

Melanin deficit disorder doesn't make you actively stupid most of the time but it sure is a juicy target for cunning propagandists.

[AppetiteForApathy]

1. No, because even when you're on a quest to know everything...

Someone is playing games with the truth.

[KoKo]

2. Delete...

[Scootaloo]

3. Only if I know they've been taught better

Media literacy is a fast-fading skill in American culture

[leftstreet]

4. If people didn't fall for propaganda, no one would vote!

[LuvNewcastle]

5. I think most people look for the truth that suits them.

There's a lot of information out there, and you can find whatever you want to find. I agree that RW sources are much more plentiful and easy to find, but few people go to the trouble to find alternative views. RWers don't just have those views because it's all they know, they enjoy having that point of view.

[bhikkhu]

16. "they enjoy having that point of view" - exactly

we are all somewhat programmed to believe that we read the news, listen to other people, and gather information in the form of facts...but for the mostly part we select views that make us feel good. What makes us feel good is generally what makes us feel accepted members of a community, or a community of thought, if you will.

Its fine that people have opinions and perspectives, and ideologies even, and that they pressure others to join their thought-group. That's basic human nature. We can scoff at the "herd mentality", but that's essentially how our minds are built.

I always try to rely on factual analysis and statistical evidence more than anything else, but there is more to it than that. One test is - how often do you change your mind about something, based on having learned more about it? Or - how often do you decline to agree with someone you trust on an issue, until your have looked at it in more detail? Do you enjoy finding that you were wrong about something? Do you ever end an argument by admitting an error? I enjoy learning, and one of the greatest things is to learn something new, even if it means saying I was wrong before. A lot of people simply don't ever do that, but rather close their minds to alternative viewpoints once they have adopted one perspective.

[cheapdate]

20. There's something else going on, too.

Large numbers of Americans have been very deliberately trained to think about issues in a particular way. That's is to say, their brains have been shaped -- certain neural pathways strengthened -- by a well organized, well funded, patient, long-term, right-wing effort to frame a particular "moral" view of the world, where empathy is weakness, wealth is a measure of worth, poverty is a sign of immorality, power is to be obeyed, etc. Sheer, unrelenting repetition of the message is the primary tool. Fear is used as an effective catalyst.

Reframing the questions in OUR terms according to OUR morality is the only remedy.

[zeemike]

23. I don't thin enjoy is the right word.

I think they are conditioned to it...some of them right from birth.

Just the same way you would condition a horse to take a saddle....slowly a little at a time, and soon enough you can ride off on them.

They feel comfortable with it and so they seem to enjoy it.

[Hydra]

6. I don't blame people who don't know what's going on

Because frankly, I don't know all of it either, and the stuff I do know makes me constantly go

That said, I do get angry when people actively support bad things and help the people who are breaking the law keep doing it. That much is obvious information, and no amount of fearmongering or "trust us" should ever have people saying "We need to allow people to do horrific things in our name because we don't understand what's going on!"

[struggle4progress]

7. The corporate media is largely paid for by advertising dollars, and it is frequently owned

by large companies with particular material interests beyond media

So the news often comes with a spin -- if it comes at all

[SheilaT]

8. Blame is not the word I would use.

But I do think that anyone with an IQ at least in the high 2 digits should be willing to learn a little, and not just watch Fox or listen to Limbaugh as their only source of information.

The problem is that very few people are taught critical thinking skills. Education through at least 10th grade is all about learning information as presented by the teacher/textbook and parroting it back for the tests. But I'm not willing to give people a pass just because they have no intellectual curiosity.

Personally, the closest thing to Main Stream Media I take in is Rachel, and I don't even watch her every day. I get my information from lots of other sources, and I seem to be accurately well informed about most things.

[Phlem]

9. yes and no and yes

The difference being I've got a couple mother and father in laws that equal success to what they've achieved in life. These are older folk who insist on helping us (and that we can't always turn down) who lived in a different time and place. You know, the father always provides, the mother stays home with the kids.

I've tried to talk to them, they look past me cause I don't have a job, and go back to selling their shit. It's a self fulfilling prophecy for them and if you can't get it done, well...

Back to 2013, they think all necessary advantages are still readily available and your just a shit head for not getting rich.

I hated them at first, then it seemed a genuine gesture to help, now I'm a leach and what's wrong with me!

My one fortunate thing in all this my wife loves me.

They can all get bent!

-P

[Zorra]

10. It's frustrating, dealing with so-called adults who still believe in Santa Claus. nt

[Half-Century Man]

11. Melanin deficit disorder can be treated with medical marijuana.

There is no cure of course, but you can alleviate the symptoms.

[Fumesucker]

32. I've heard that some people call it "getting stupid"

[Dustin DeWinde]

12. of course I blame the people who eagerly allow themselves to be fooled

When wingnuts listen to charlatans peddling nonsense about trickle down economics, when they eagerly lap up the racism, xenophobia and misogyny demagogues feed them, of course I blame them.

We all have the same news sources to choose from, we all have access to the internet. The songbird are adults just like every other voter. If the songbird choose to follow those pandering to their prejudice and chauvinism , there is no one but the wingnuts themselves to blame.

[1awake]

17. Many years ago

I came on this sight after hearing about it on of all places... the Rush L show. I read and read, then read some more. Finally, I created an account and tentatively began asking questions. My questions received comments ranging from awesome answers to accusations of being some kind of a saboteur. Eventually... and when I say eventually i mean within a week or so I found out I was given the ole Tombstone.

... It pissed me off. So, I stomped off for a few days, then started reading other people's posts again. Honestly... I felt like I was being exposed to concepts and ideas that I may have heard before, not not at all in the way I was then reading. Soooo... I created a new account (and took some time to pick my new name) and this time, if I had questions I'd try and find the answers myself. Long story short... I found that I actually agreed in my heart with most of the things those on the left espouse. I also realized that most of the things that kept me center right before DU were facades... BS feel good crap that really is the opposite of what they tell you to believe. I obviously still continue on with the practice of reading a hell of alot more than I post since im at the 900's range and been here for 6 years.

I guess what I'm saying is there are ALOT of center/right leaning people out there that truly are not. And no... we don't all have the internet or the same news choices and even if they did, how would they know where to look? A bubble is a very difficult thing to exit once inside.

ps... Just to be clear, I ALWAYS thought Rush L. was a piece of shit egotistical racist piece of shit (yes I said it twice). Have a good day.

1awake

pss - Ummm.. I hope I'm not in trouble for circumventing the tombstone 6 years ago.?

[Fumesucker]

22. Nice post, Zombie

" there are ALOT of center/right leaning people out there that truly are not."

Quoted For Truth

[Dustin DeWinde]

33. contrary to what you may have heard about liberal elitism

THIS liberal is no elitist that can be taken in by "oh the poor restated just dont know any better". Bullish*t and crackers. Whose fault is it when teabaggers are willing to deny their neighbors the american right to vote? If the baggers were decent folks, no way would they listen to folks feeding them garbage about racial superiority. They also wouldn't elect people who would force a woman to carry a rapists baby to term. Neither would they boo a namerican soldier on a foreign battlefield just because that soldier is gay.

Your eagerness to make excuses for horrendous unamerican behavior makes me doubt your tale of. conversion from avid Limbaugh listener to upstanding democrat. Decent folks don't all have to like each others ways, but we do have to respect each others rights. The entire rightwing movement you make excuses for is built upon disregarding the rights and dignity of others.

A woman wants to choose when to carry a pregnancy to term, baggers disregard her as a silly broad and try and make the decision for her. A homosexual guy or gal wants to marry their lover, baggers disregard their wishes and insist they are the a arbiters of decency. A black citizen wishes to vote, baggers see no need for that as they feel such decisions shouldn't be made by 'those' people.

Don't you dare give me your.crocodile tears about how baggers just don't know better. Save it for someone who might actually fall for it.

[1awake]

36. Then let me put it another way for ya ...

Edited to not be so unsulting and mean.

Your not really a nice person are you lol. Second, calling people out for being fake when your a member yourself all of 2 seconds makes you look like a plant. Just saying.

[chervilant]

47. Dinna fash yourself about the negative ones...

We've got to work together to help the most delusional among us, or drag them relentlessly along toward a future that benefits all.

[1awake]

48. agreed. n/t

[Dustin DeWinde]

49. ha ha made you reveal your true nature

And. Obama is still presiden. Africa is still the fastest growing continent demogralhicallt and economically and Black people here at home now vote at a higher rate than white people.

I really don't see your relevance.

Lol I suppose I might get this post hidden for being painfully (to bigots) truthful but reality is reality.

You have your right to defend teabaggers. I have a right to state the truth that they are horrible human beings. Ain't America grand.

Oh and more babies of color were born in the us last year than white babies time is on my side

[Dustin DeWinde]

29. damned autofill changed wingnut to "songbird.'. i missed the last two

[Fire Walk With Me]

13. NDAA: It is legal for the government to lie to your face.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023438872

[mstinamotorcity2]

14. I don't blame them totally.

But I do hold them responsible for believing in things that other people say when you see what is going on with your eyes. The illusion is in the rhetoric. Its like the new Black Panthers There are only two of them at the polling place in 2008. Faux news played that tape for the whole four years of President Obama's first term. When 2012 came along they had one standing at a poling place. By my count that brings a grand total of 3. Which means they are taking over. Did the Germans bomb Pearl Harbor???

[Enthusiast]

42. Those New Black Panthers were

probably hired by News Corp, all three of them.

[cer7711]

15. Yes, I do blame "them"

Last edited Fri Aug 23, 2013, 12:07 AM - Edit history (5)

I appreciate the point you are making about the ubiquitous insidiousness of reality-denying right-wing propaganda.

Nevertheless--yes, I do blame the willfully ignorant, the criminally insane and the appallingly stupid.

It's the first group especially that enrages me. It isn't that hard to get your head out of your own ass and educate yourself on any number of issues foreign and domestic. There are great sites like this one, plus Salon.com, Huffington Post, The Young Turks, et. al. Progressive television and radio options are out there. Information-packed, well-reviewed books exist, covering a wide range of issues explored in exhaustive, well-researched depth by divers writers.

But you have to fucking care. You have to read. Daily! You have to have enough intelligence, intellectual curiosity and moral stamina to go to these sites (and others) to educate yourself. To pay attention. You know, between the porn and the LOL! kitty videos and the daily cinder-block-to-the-head deluge of celebrity gossip.

It's the MENTALITY of this first group that fills me with contempt. You don't have to be an Oxford-educated historian to realize that conservatives have been on the wrong side of every social issue reaching back to the dawn of history. You don't have to be a Nobel-prize-winning scientist to realize that we are absolutely decimating this planet and that future generations--unless something changes drastically--will be numbered in the single digits.

Yeah, I blame these guffawing, bible-clutching jackasses. (I refer to the Evangelical, "inerrant word of God" zealots.) I blame the neo-nazi, neo-Confederate, neo-fucking-Ted Nugent/Chuck Norris wanna-be's who giggle at every vicious, hate-mongering morsel of madness that flies, spittle-flecked and glistening, out of their hero's mouths before rolling cameras and stage lights.

And if I had the power I'd wish this entire group of lunatics "into the cornfield" yesterday! (Twilight Zone reference)

Because here's the dealio: There is no time left. None.

The dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico widens, Tepco's Fukushima "little-engine-that-could" (destroy the Earth) keeps pumping millions of barrels of radioactive waste directly into the Pacific Ocean and the polar ice caps melt as global mean temperature rises. Please note that I haven't even mentioned yet how the quality of life in America has become an absolute shit-sandwich for those without a living wage, decent benefits and medical insurance.

You get it? Of course you do. You do.

The rest of these fuckers?!

They will bring an end to the human experiment cosmos so recently ran. Because there are more--far, far more--of "them" than there are of "us".

And it looks like the stupid and the evil will prevail, from my tottering perch ring-side here in 2013.

[Safetykitten]

31. +1

[smirkymonkey]

34. +1000

[Enthusiast]

43. I am concerned that the influx of freshwater from Greenland ice

could trigger a repeat of the Younger Dryas effect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Younger_Dryas

While I agree with much of what you say, I recognize that these people are victims of the greatest propaganda effort in all of human history. We cannot even begin to calculate the harm that will be done by this massive misinformation campaign. Fox News is a network entirely devoted to pushing purely false information to their audience. Much of the audience doesn't even suspect for one moment that Fox News isn't fair and balanced. I know this from remarks by otherwise intelligent family members.

[eShirl]

18. more like disappointment in them than blame

[Marr]

21. Yes, because people believe what they want to believe.

If you fall for racist propaganda, it's because you're a racist. If you fall for authoritarian propaganda, it's because you're an authoritarian. "I was lied to" is not much of an excuse-- particularly when the lies are transparent.

[Fumesucker]

25. Can you explain then the rapid changes in some public attitudes, toward gays for instance?

There are a great many people who were once bigoted against gays who now accept them. Your position would be that people are incapable of changing, change is certainly often difficult but it's not impossible.

Take Robert Byrd for instance, a former KKK member who ended finally being one of the more liberal members of the Senate.

[Marr]

26. I do think people can change their thinking on a topic, certainly--

and the recent, broader acceptance of gays is a great example of that. When people have actual contact with the people they've become comfortable hating, that hatred often slowly bleeds away.

But I do think people tend to look for things that reinforce their current thinking rather than things that challenge it. A racist is going to buy into racist propaganda a lot more reliably than someone who is not a racist-- but that doesn't mean they can't change over time.

[Enthusiast]

44. Excellent point.....................nt

[Rex]

24. I've watched them do it for 30 years now.

DU1 wasn't anything new. People are susceptible to the propaganda that leads to what they want to hear the most. Do that for decades with the M$M and the lies become the truth. Just like blind faith. We see Repukes do it only a daily basis. We hope that people in our party would not fall for it as well, but it seems to be the nature of the beast for some.

They only thing I cannot stand is getting lectures from former Reaganites that say they are now stanch Dems. They saw the light and as it was when they were conservatives, you either believe them now or hit the road.

Then you have people that 'discovered' politics 5 years ago and have all the answers.

[leveymg]

27. Propaganda doesn't work unless it reinforces something already there.

The most effective form of disinformation wraps itself in attractive layers of easily-digestible facts but has a poisonous core. What does one say about people who continue to eat such poisoned fruit, even though they continually have been shown to hold false beliefs, but never seem to learn from the experience?

I don't know, should we blame those who rob banks? Aren't they just victims, too?

[Fumesucker]

28. Some of the most powerful and pervasive propaganda on the planet is religion

There are nations where upwards of 90% of the population are believers in one religion or another.

But there are also nations where only a small percentage, in the teens, of the population are believers.

The prime difference seems to be that the non religious nations tend not to proselytize their kids, they don't get the propaganda fed to them from the very cradle.

What was is it the Jesuits say, give me a child until the age of seven and I will give you the man?

[smirkymonkey]

35. +1000

[Safetykitten]

30. Excellent post.

[PowerToThePeople]

37. I used to feel sorry for them.

But, the reality is, they are complicit with murder. Many stand in support of murder.

[loyalsister]

38. There are people who ask that question with us in mind

I heard a RWer refer to Democrats as "low information voters." Deriding people who we disagree with is probably not the best way to try to persuade them that it is in their interest to vote for Democrats. I think we shouldn't call people stupid and forget about them.

[Fumesucker]

39. I think the majority of voters on both sides are "low information voters"

Gotta admit I've done my share and probably then some of deriding Republicans and conservatives but as I indicated, my attitudes are changing.

These days I try to always keep in mind that Fox News went to court and won the right to knowingly and deliberately lie on their programs.

[loyalsister]

40. Fox news is absolute poison

Clever though. They used Rush's formula to elicit outrage then reel people in with humor about the outrage. And, build on it day after day. People get hooked on each incident waiting to see what Hannity, O'reilly, Huckabee, etc. each have to say.

MSNBC is doing a pretty good job of adopting that format without the hate and anger. I'm glad that they finally did it.

[treestar]

41. Yes, they could go directly to the sources

Especially now. They chose the entertainment route.

[Uncle Joe]

45. I blame the people at the top for perpetuating decades of mass brainwashing

against the American People.

Anyone can succumb to brainwashing, living in a bluish island of a reddish state, I've come to learn that causing them to question "reality" from an empathetic point of view is far more effective than direct emotional confrontation.

I view the people as victims, long term brainwashing is a most powerful force to contend with.

I also think after a while even some of the culprits; behind this spreading of propaganda at some level come to believe their own lies.

It's a dire mess.

Thanks for thread, Fumesucker.

[xchrom]

46. sadly, at this point i believe i do.

it's not difficult to find information and educate one's self on what' happening.

it's all getting to be like climate denial.