So how is it we have all these shooters trying to get medical help...

[dkf]

And still no results?

We know the pattern already. Shouldn't it be more obvious to mental health providers by now what they should be on the lookout for?

Don't people who fit the pattern need a consistent support team or something? It really seems like they are just shoved back out into all their problems with little relief from whatever is breaking them. And then we are shocked when it happens.

There are enough ways to kill people that simply preventing them from purchasing that AR-15 is no true solution.

[HERVEPA]

1. Uh, right. Lots of ways to kill 12 people on a spree without that weapon,

[dkf]

16. Likely he was a problem with or without legally purchasing the shotgun.

He already had a gun. He could have illegally bought more guns or stolen a gun or used a knife on the guard to get his gun.

Do you think all this would have been stopped by that one shotgun sale? I doubt it.

[HERVEPA]

19. I was reponding to the part of your post below.

"There are enough ways to kill people that simply preventing them from purchasing that AR-15 is no true solution"

We understand. You're in love with your fucking guns. We get it.

[dkf]

53. Sorry, don't have any guns.

I support our rights to support our rights.

[HERVEPA]

64. How does an individual having a gun relate to a well-regulated militia?

[JaneyVee]

35. Mental health is complex. Gun control is easier.

[dkf]

55. You must be joking.

Gun control is as easy as abortion control. You'll have half the country steamed and pissed and antagonistic.

[The Magistrate]

2. Nice To See You Latch Onto a Fresh Way To Stir Shit, Ma'am

Your economic routines were getting old, and anyone could see your heart really was not in the Syrian or NSA business....

[NYC_SKP]

7. What a terrific example of the two sides failing to find even a modicum of consensus.

It wouldn't end the world if we looked at tighter gun controls AND mental health.

We stopped his having an AR15 so he got a shotgun.

We fucked up by not barring him in 2004 from ever buying any gun, a mental health screening and disqualification could have done that.

But, apparently, any attempt to discuss alternatives or parallel solutions to gun violence is met with insults and ridicule.

How very disappointing.

Worse, it's very counterproductive.

Improvements to the health of our society requires a holistic approach and multiple measures.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

10. If they didn't have a body count they wouldn't have anything to use to demand more control

30,000 gun deaths per year, half of which are suicides. Not once will they talk about alleviating the emotional torment that drives people to suicide. If we had proper intervention services then they would have a plummeting gun death rate and that would lead the public to discount their claims. The pain of others is too useful a political prop.

[HERVEPA]

22. Guess what? Fewer guns ==> fewer successful suicides also.

Other methods much less reliable. Didn't you used to be liberal before hooking up with a Republican.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

28. Take the gun, leave the illness --or-- take the illness, gun becomes moot

"Hooking up with a Republican"? Am I now apostate for sleeping with the enemy? Are you going to drive me from the village under a hail of stones for being an unclean, wanton harlot?

grow up

[HERVEPA]

65. Nope.

Noting views being more right wing.
As to whether you are an unclean wanton harlot, I have no information as to whether or not that is true.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

66. Yeah, hence the "hooked up" comment. 'Cause I can only think with my vagina.

It's not like I have a brain or anything or can accept new experiences or approach things with an open mind. Any changes in my views can be distilled down to have "hooked up."

BTW -- I'm pro-gay rights, anti-war, anti-bailouts, pro-healthcare, etc. Maybe you just see what you want to see or maybe you're just jealous I'm hooking-up outside my kind.

[The Magistrate]

14. With You, Sir, I Would Happily Discuss Such Matters

I expect we disagree on many points in this question, but I know it is an issue you are concerned with and devote some genuine energy to.

That is not the case with the person who commenced this thread.

[NYC_SKP]

17. Well, I appreciate that, Sir.

The sentiment is mutual. More heat than light, lately, on this matter.

[The Magistrate]

31. The Main Tell In The O.P., Sir

Is trotting out the 'he'd find lots of ways to kill without a gun' wheeze. This is not a serious argument, particularly in relation to mass and spree killings, and further, is one this person has recently started peddling over and over again. It is a line that is guaranteed to stir angry and derisive replies, and put bluntly, deserves to.

[dkf]

56. You think I'm being insincere in my belief?

Well that's presumptuous of someone who pretends to be respectful with all their airs of civility.

Maybe you are the one stirring up shit in my heartfelt thoughts on a solution.

That really pisses me off. What is wrong with you?

[The Magistrate]

57. I Suspect My Statements Have Been Clear Enough, Ma'am, To Convey My View Un-Mistakeably

And I do not see any reason to alter or moderate it.

[dkf]

59. You sir, are no true gentleman.

At least I don't pretend to be what I'm not.

[The Magistrate]

60. Quite The Contrary, Ma'am: You Pretend To Be A Person With Various Concerns

But actually simply try and stir anger and division here, choosing your topics and stands with that goal, and little else, in mind.

[OneGrassRoot]

32. I'm with you both, NYC_SKP and The Magistrate...

In stepping back from many of our most pressing issues (not only here at DU, but everywhere), it's the shutting down of conversation altogether via many tactics (intentional and perhaps unintentional) that prevents us from coming together as a citizenry to discuss how to address these issues.

They are all BIG issues. It's all very complex, whether we're talking gun control measures, healthcare (mental health and more), racism and other institutionalized inequality, and so on.

They're big issues so it requires genuine discussion, back and forth, rather than merely broadcasting one view repeatedly. People need to listen more.

What upsets me most specifically regarding the gun issue is the absolute intransigence to have a conversation. If an idea or suggestion is thrown out for consideration, it's quickly swatted down, as though that's the end of it. Done. End of story.

That happens with everything, of course, but we must to learn to have a conversation rather than broadcasting our views all the time, as I see it.

I love the Internet and boards such as DU, but we need to take it all to the next level to learn how to have authentic, honest conversations rather than simply broadcasting an opinion.

That's what I think.

[Eleanors38]

38. ^^^ A reasonable approach.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

8. Loughner, Holmes, Lanza and Alexis were all known well beforehand to have mental health issues.

The authorities -- whom you presumably trust to enforce the control laws for which you petition -- were aware of these threats and took no action. When will people who are actually responsible for the things that happen (or don't happen) be held to account?

[devils chaplain]

36. And same with Cho (Virginia Tech shooter) as well. n/t

[Eleanors38]

43. IIRC, the VT murderer was adjudicated mentally incompetent,

but the paperwork didn't make it through the system, even though VA was second only to CA in its ability to move the paperwork.

[dkf]

18. Stirring up shit? How is this not pure common sense?

That is what is ridiculous.

[The Magistrate]

24. Do Not Pretend You Do Not Know Your Own Game, Ma'am

That would cause me to lose all respect for you entirely....

[Eleanors38]

33. Are you still using the stigmata routine? Is it working?

[The Magistrate]

37. This One Is Not On Your Side, Ma'am

This one just ranges alongside whatever will provoke and disturb most at the present moment.

[2ndAmForComputers]

41. I was expecting to read the healthcare negligence, and hence the shooting, happened because of ACA.

Oh damn. I just gave her a fresh new idea, didn't I?

[dionysus]

48. you noticed that too, Sir? after the huge meta post, take a hard turn left.. seems now to be

swinging back to the right...

[kelliekat44]

3. Hopefully the ACA will change access to mental health care for millions. The NRA-RW always

say that the government should do more to help people with mental health problems and less gun control. Yet they are the ones trying to thwart the ACA. Go figure. Their hypocrisy and lying is monumental.

[The Magistrate]

21. Machine Stuttered, Ma'am

Sometimes the cursor jumps.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

23. Not to be nosy, but what the hell. I think you replied to the wrong person. nt

[The Magistrate]

26. I Did Indeed, Sir

And edited as soon as I saw it come up.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

27. Oh, never mind. Just saw that. nt

[dkf]

25. We need more than the ACA. We need to rethink the services we provide.

This should be in the public health realm.

I would like to see funding being provided by the government for people who may be dangerous so we can help them in a humane way.

Isn't it obvious they are crying for help? It's when they can't get that help that they explode and then everyone else is hurting.

[jberryhill]

4. "And still no results?"

Can you explain what you mean by that line?

I'm not aware of the number of "would be shooters deterred by mental health services" or how that figure has varied over time, but I'd love to know where you are getting your measurements.

[dkf]

29. Well not for Aaron Alexis obviously.

Nor the shooters we've been seeing including James Holmes.

What's sad is we sometimes label them as dangerous then dump them. What a great way to exacerbate their problems leaving them in more danger of exploding.

[jberryhill]

39. WTF is the point of your OP?

Thousands of people die in car accidents. Let's get rid of airbags, because they aren't working.

[dkf]

70. We need to improve the system to identify potential mass killers, and treat them humanely

With the thought that this saves us, not only them.

[jberryhill]

73. First, there is no such "system"

Second, we have no way of involuntarily detaining people who are not a clear threat of danger to themselves or others, and even then, the only thing that can be done is a time-limited hold.

Third, you do not provide any basis on which to determine how many would-be mass shooters are successfully diverted from becoming actual mass shooters by currently available mental health treatment, nor do you provide any notion of what is required to obtain "improvement", nor what the measure of such improvement would be.

If, for example, it turns out the 99.99999% of would-be mass shooters are successfully diverted from becoming actual mass shooters by mental health treatment, then there might be substantial efficiency gains available in making it a tad more difficult to obtain firearms.

What would you think of private community organizations providing counseling and activities for the potentially troubled? Like, say, at a religious sponsored community center in lower Manhattan?

Oh, that's right, you oppose that sort of thing too.

[dkf]

74. I'm not talking about involuntary detainment.

I'm talking about outpatient treatment with a lot of support efforts. Concerned calls for instance. Maybe even visits to the house if need be.

And yes there is no program but there ought to be.

Moreover I'm not talking about a patchwork effort. I want it coordinated with whatever resources are needed.

Is it expensive? Sure. Compared to what though?

[MineralMan]

5. Mental health care is minimally available, at best,

for anyone without good health insurance. We don't really have an programs for those without those resources. There are programs, but they're overwhelmed with demand, and don't do much of a job to help.

Then, there are the medications. They are amazing, but it can take a lot of time to find the right combination for each person, and some of the ones that work the best are still protected by patents and are extremely expensive, even if you do have insurance. Some of the older medications have side effects that are bad enough that people are unwilling to take them, feeling that the side effects are worse than the illness they have.

So, you're sort of wrong in your supposition that people are seeking and getting help. A lot of people have given up seeking, because they weren't getting.

Our jails and prisons are now the public mental health facilities, and they do a terrible job of helping people with mental illness, but they are what there is in many places. Lip service is given in many jurisdictions through county mental health departments and the like, but they do not have budgets or staff enough to handle the needs of the population. Not even close.

A consistent support team? That's a dream, unless you have terrific health insurance in a state that requires mental health parity. ACA will improve the parity thing, but there will still be the problem of actually finding a mental health professional who has an appointment space open within the next four months.

You don't appear to understand the situation. It's grim unless you have the means to afford a high quality health insurance policy and the funds to pay for your medications. Millions of people have neither, and their illnesses prevent them from getting those means.

You are drastically over-simplifying the issues.

[dkf]

34. It seems like oversimplification if the system makes it too complicated.

It's actually ridiculous that a person who is a danger to himself and the public is made to jump through hoops.

This should be seen as a public safety issue, not as an individual's medical issue.

We need psychiatric triage, where certain symptoms get comprehensive help paid for by the government.

[MineralMan]

42. Indeed. We do need better mental health care.

So, maybe that's what we should be working on, not tied to firearms at all.

That's my point, dkf. You're trying to apply something to firearms eligibility without dealing with the overriding problem of access to that health care in the first place.

Think about it.

[dkf]

49. I'm for single payer but since that's been overridden...

Then I think this is one area where we should pay for it all.

[LiberalLoner]

54. +1 we really do need better and more mental health care in the US and

I would sure like to see us working on the problems that tend to create higher levels of mental illness in our nation (depression, anxiety, etc.)

[RobinA]

61. In Some Cases

you are actually better off on Medicaid when it comes to mental health services. Even with good health insurance. I have good health insurance, but it would not cover some of the services one can get on Medicaid. Particularly in the "consistent community support" realm. Now, I'm not saying you are WELL off with Medicaid, just better.

The problem is not just in access, but in the services being delivered. Half-assed, quite frankly. It's in large part a funding issue. All of these recent shooters appear to have had at least some access to the system, the system is just full of holes.

[dkf]

69. Exactly. I don't think we have the right model both treatment and funding wise.

This is about help that we collectively need to give or we suffer the blowback.

[TwilightGardener]

6. Consistent support teams? Who's going to pay for that?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

15. The Alternative -- We would pay for a War on Guns ala the War on Drugs --

by cutting social services.

[dkf]

51. We should.

He would have gotten treatment from the VA anyway. The problem is they apparently declined to do what was needed.

[Dash87]

9. Because Reaganites have been gutting the mental health system for 30+ years.

[jsr]

11. Yep.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

12. The NRA should be the #1 booster of ACA given their *concerns* about mental health care

except, of course, most of its rank-and-file hate President Obama and want to see ACA (aka "Obamacare&quot defunded/repealed.



Which is it guys?

I think that what we need is stronger gun laws with the provision that the NRA promotes Obamacare and when mental health care access significantly improves in this country and people are getting healthier, then maybe we can talk about having looser gun laws- since that seems to be what the NRA believes is the real problem.

[dkf]

40. The ACA isn't good enough. Alexis had the VA...he had access.

We need to rethink how we treat these symptoms in particular. There is a toxic combination that is running true in these mass shootings.

[B2G]

13. He didn't use an AR-15

He purchased a shotgun and took handguns off the guards at the site.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

20. James Holmes did. nt

[B2G]

30. Which only proves that

banning a certain type of gun isn't going to stop these kinds of incidents.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

44. Nothing will ever stop anything 100%.

However, if something reduces the chances of something harmful being done, do it.

[dkf]

47. Maybe for the person in question but if that's an excuse to ban a gun for the population...

That is no rationale.

[dkf]

46. No it won't.

Look what Alexis did with a shotgun, Joe Biden's weapon of choice. Then he got more weapons inside the facility.

I am cynical enough to disbelieve making anything illegal means a person can't get one.

But I do believe that we should have a specific list of people who exhibit these combinations of symptoms who should be on a list prohibiting gun purchases and gun ownership. I also believe they should get free psychiatric treatments and drugs for life. Maybe if that's the trade off its something they would welcome.

[dionysus]

50. i didn't know Biden had a favorite spree killing weapon.

[dkf]

52. Joe Biden Says No Need To Own Assault Weapons: 'Buy A Shotgun!'

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/2719330

[frylock]

63. a waiting period like we have in california certainly wouldn't hurt..

I had to wait 10 days before I could pick up my shotgun. this guy was denied the purchase of an AR-15, bought a shotgun, and rampaged the very next day.

[B2G]

68. Might not hurt but likely wouldn't have helped

He actually bought the gun on Saturday and rampaged on Monday. I doubt waiting a week would have made much difference to him.

[Eleanors38]

45. And the VT murderer didn't.

[Brickbat]

58. "Shouldn't it be more obvious to mental health providers by now..."

What the fuck is that shit right there? Maybe if they were working in a society that understood mental illness and funded its treatment effectively, you wouldn't have to blame the providers.

[RobinA]

62. I'm A Provider

and yes, it is obvious to us. Unfortunately, the money to fund us to a level where we can be effective seems to be stashed somewhere to pay for bombing Syria.

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. Start with Reagan

The attitude has not changed.

[dkf]

71. Yet it needs to.

Some mental institutions do seem like horror stories though. I would prefer better solutions if possible.

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. In some cases it would be as simple as mental health screens

With access to medical care.

Alexis might have been developing schizophrenia. Right age for that to start. It needs careful medical management, it is a type of disability, and we don't have either.

So the first solution is a change in attitudes society wide.

The second is we actually need those hospitals, with good management. Some people need to be committed. Most of those are gone. The people in them were set free, I see many of them down town. They are homeless.