All this bombing and killing and enforcement of norms is only creating more people who hate us.

[dkf]

How many innocent Muslims do we kill before we start to look at what we are inviting upon ourselves?

The US as iron fist isn't winning us the love of the world. To the contrary. It's pure arrogance as we refuse to be a participant in the ICC.

Yes we can blow up any country on this planet. But we can't hide every citizen from the hatred we engender.

Shame on any politician who brings this wrath down upon us.

[jberryhill]

1. Did we strike Syria and I missed it?

Clearly Kenyan imperialism has come back to bite them.

[dkf]

3. Not yet. But we struck Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan.

And used drones in Yemen and Pakistan...

How long do we think we can kill with impunity? No wonder the government needs to spy on the world.

[Cleita]

26. Also, it's been reported that our meddling in Somalia led to

the bombing of the shopping mall in Nairobi. It seems we were part of a military operation that invaded Somalia.

[dkf]

35. Omg. But am I surprised? Not really.

[Cleita]

41. I wish I could give you a link or two, but I can't

on this device. However, anyone whose interested google Somalia, Ethiopia and USA. It will take you to articles on it including wiki leaks. Then Google Somalia, Nairobi shooting and Al Jazeera. It should take you to an interview they did with one of the Somali terrorists who directly said this was the reason they bombed the mall.

[dkf]

42. I will definitely look for that.

And will wait to see what our press reports.

[Skidmore]

34. Have you noticed that we no longer have combat troops in Iraq and that

we are withdrawing combat troops from Afghanistan? Does that not register on your reality scope?

[dkf]

36. Because Iraq wouldn't give our people immunity from prosecution.

Thanks to Chelsea Manning.

Do I think we would have pulled out without that move? I have my doubts.

[leveymg]

27. No, we just ignited and fueled the genocidal civil war there that killed 100K people

And, we DID have a major role in organizing and directing the opposition for at least five years before February, 2011. The blood is on our hands, too, as well as the other outside powers that poured money, arms and foreign fighters into the conflict.

[dkf]

43. I definitely want to see more on this.

Is this all CIA special ops or some such thing? Do we ever learn what goes on? Who directs this? Solely the administration? Or is congress consulted?

[leveymg]

45. Apr. '11 - NYT, WP, Christian Science Monitor reported US covert support of Syrian exile groups

for at least five years before the uprising.

Many Americans still cling to the notion that the United States came into the game of mass murder in Syria after the killing started, and that somehow "our hands are clean." Nothing could be further from the truth. In April 2011, just days after gun battles first broke out between the Syrian military and defecting units, the NYT and the Christian Science Monitor both ran articles detailing the role of the CIA and the State Department in cultivating the rebellion.

The stronger and more informative Monitor report cited reports in the WaPo that US State Dept cables released by Wikileaks revealed that the US had covertly been aiding and directing the Syrian opposition for at least five years before the same exile groups declared "Days of Rage" sparked the rebellion: http://www.csmonitor.com/World/terrorism-security/2011/0418/Cables-reveal-covert-US-support-for-Syria-s-opposition

[div class="excerpt"]Newly released WikiLeaks cables reveal that the US State Department has been secretly financing Syrian opposition groups and other opposition projects for at least five years, The Washington Post reports.

That aid continued going into the hands of the Syrian government opposition even after the US began its reengagement policy with Syria under President Barack Obama in 2009, the Post reports. In January, the US posted its first ambassador to the country since the Bush administration withdrew the US ambassador in 2005 over concerns about Syria's involvement in the assassination of former Lebanese prime minister Rafik Hariri.

The Obama administration has been trying to draw Syria away from its key ally Iran and closer to the US and its regional allies. The effort seems to have been largely unsuccessful so far, and antigovernment protests sweeping the country have complicated the issue. The US is struggling to determine how to support Syria's democratic protesters while not alienating the Assad government, which has cracked down brutally on demonstrations and blamed them on "foreign saboteurs," as The Christian Science Monitor reported last week.

That is a dilemma that concerned the US government even before the protests began. The author of an April 2009 cable expressed concern that some of the projects being funded by the US, if discovered by the Syrian government, would be perceived as "an attempt to undermine the Asad regime, as opposed to encouraging behavior reform."

The Post reported that much of the money – as much as $6 million since 2006 – has been funneled through a group of Syrian exiles in London, known as the Movement for Justice and Development. The group is connected to a London-based satellite television station that is broadcast in Syria, known as Barada TV, which has recently expanded its coverage to include the mass protests.


Several other civil society initiatives in Syria received secret US funding, but by 2009, US officials were concerned that the Syrian government had discovered the US funding. The Post was unable to confirm whether programs are still being funded, but cables indicate the funding was planned at least through September 2010.

The WikiLeaks disclosure comes a week after US officials disclosed that Iran has been providing the Syrian government with assistance in putting down the protests and monitoring protesters' actions. Syria has become one of several proxy battlegrounds in the region between Iran and the US, the Monitor reported.

The rivals are constantly vying for the upper hand in Syria, which is the main conduit for weapons and funding flowing from Tehran to Hezbollah in Lebanon as well as the Palestinian group Hamas. While the US would like to end the friendly relationship between Assad and Iran, there is also great concern among US officials that, should Assad fall in the protests, the resulting power vacuum would given Iran an opportunity to broaden its influence in Syria.

< . . .>

[Lurks Often]

2. They will hate us no matter what we do.

I see no reason to go into Syria and it's past time for us to leave Afghanistan, but never think that will change the views of some countries or elements within those countries. They hate us for our religious freedom, our wealth and because we're one of the countries in their way.

And since you failed to mention it, remember that some of these Muslims are extremists who throw acid into young girls faces and would happily do the same or worse the LGBT community, among others.

[dkf]

4. You don't think our actions have made anyone's opinion the slight bit worse?

How is it they aren't outraged when I am outraged for them?

[Lurks Often]

13. Depends on your view point

The Kurds and Shia in Iraq are happy we invaded and removed Saddam since that meant he stopped killing them by the thousands. There are many in Afghanistan, especially among the women, who are happy we invaded, since the Taliban treated them at best as property.

[dkf]

37. Sure they are happy because they took over territory and started mistreating others.

[Skidmore]

44. You will never be satisfied with any outcome

anywhere because there is literally no person or government in this world that will be able to exert the amount of control to enforce the standards for peace you demand Unfortunately, the world is made up of flawed humans with free will to choose divergent paths to their futures and some of those paths may not involve seeking anything more than wielding power. As much as I would love to see a peaceful world, getting billions of people with vastly different expectations to instantaneously arrive at this place is unrealistic.

I do see movement forward. Frankly. I would like to see the nations with the arms industries stop selling them and reduce their own stockpiles. We are not alone in that category.

[dkf]

48. Oh I fully understand no one can enforce peace. That is why I want us to butt out.

We stir the pot too much and too often.

[xfundy]

11. "They hate us for our religious freedom"

Bullshit. They hate us because, in our name, their family members were shredded or burned alive by "our" bombs, etc.

You think our "Christians™" would hesitate to ruin lives on the same scale, but not as yet through acid attacks?

How is claiming that LGBTs spread disease, are perverts after children, are communists/socialists/nazis, adopt children to molest them, want to destroy America and the churches, are devil worshippers, and that's just the tip of the bullshit iceberg, how is that not a series of attacks on Americans who pay their damn taxes and just want to live in harmony?

Your comment was twisted, and if you truly believe that, well then...

[Lurks Often]

12. This isn't something new

we've been killing each other over religious differences for centuries.

And while we still have a long way to go when it comes to treating the LGBT community better, we generally don't kill them for religious reasons and when they are murdered, the murderer is sent to jail.

[uppityperson]

21. Do you seriously not notice religion in hate crimes against LGBT?And that the perps are always jail?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_violence_against_LGBT_people_in_the_United_States
http://rt.com/usa/gay-murder-greenwich-us-homophobia-511/

[Lurks Often]

23. I think you are missing the point

I'm not saying our treatment of LGBT here in the US is perfect, we have a lot to do, the point I was trying to make is that there are Muslim extremists that would happily murder every single LGBT person in the US and turn women back into property. A lot of people seem to forget or overlook that and are more then willing to place ALL of the blame on the U.S. for how we are perceived overseas.

[uppityperson]

24. I think you are missing the point.

There are Christian and flds extremists that would happily murder every single LGBT person in the US and turn women back into property. There are extremists here in the US that are not Muslim. I see few putting ALL the blame on the USA but the USA's actions HAVE helped create more extremists.

[Lurks Often]

25. The difference is that those in the US that believe that way are contained

and if they do commit a crime, they are tracked down and prosecuted 99% of the time.

As for the rest, the various countries, regions and religons involved have been doing this for centuries and I see no end in sight.

[uppityperson]

32. 99% of hate crimes due to sexual orientation are prosecuted in USA?

[Lurks Often]

52. I've already said we need to do better

, but yes, in general we do prosecute, with the caveat that prosecutors need enough evidence to try a case and may not take minor cases to trial.

[uppityperson]

54. Those in the US that " believe that way" are "contained"? How are those who would gladly

murder every single glbt person in the US and turn women back into property " contained"? http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3722579

Where do you get you 99% number of hate crimes committed due to sexual orientation being prosecuted? thank you for taking time to clear this up.

Second point you missed. Have the USA's actions created more extremists?

[Lurks Often]

55. I made a guess on the 99%m you have a different number?

Do you see the ones in the US that believe that way making any progress in their views? I don't and every year they lose a little more ground

You think that we've created more extremists, maybe we have, but apparently the President feels we need to continue doing what we've been doing in Afghanistan and elsewhere.

[uppityperson]

56. Your 99% is just a guess? Thank you. Now you told me what you think I think and what Obama thinks bu

but not what you think. Or do you mean "maybe"?

Also you did not explain how extremists in usa that hate glbt and want women Under their control are "contained". Or do you mean there are fewer hate crimes and fewer attempts to control women? in which case let me direct you to continuations of decreasing access to reproductive health care, including abortions.

No. Attempts to control women and extremism against glbt are not losing ground, as far as the extremists go. For the non-extremists, true. But this thread and sub- thread is not about them.

[NuclearDem]

15. Nope!

That's just a piece of propaganda used by demagogues to justify their agendas.

Those same people wouldn't have a pool of disheartened young men to recruit from if we didn't uphold brutal dictators who force these people to work in the oil fields for slave wages, or if we didn't slaughter their family members and neighbors through the drone program or our reckless military adventurism throughout the region.

[Lurks Often]

17. Try again

this has been going on in one form or the other for centuries.

[dkf]

38. That is no excuse and in fact makes it worse.

How long do we think we can continue since you say it has been going on forever.

[Lurks Often]

51. Don't know, guess we'll find out n/t

[Cleita]

28. Having traveled in countries that hate us that we didn't engage in

with military, our invasion by industries such as mining and oil and the regime changes we were behind to insure their cooperation also has a lot to do with our not being beloved by them.

[Comrade Grumpy]

30. Dubya, your words ring as true as ever.

[Lurks Often]

53. Immature name calling, a typical response when someone doesn't agree 100% with your views n/t

[JI7]

5. so they attacked Kenya because of the US ?

[dkf]

6. I am more worried when they decide to duplicate that here.

What will be our excuse then? They hate us for our freedoms? I don't believe that any more. We've given them too many good reasons beyond that.

[JI7]

7. some of these were americans and raised elsewhere in the west

[dkf]

8. And so?

[JI7]

9. so they should have killed themselves rather than kenya

if they were angry with americans

[dkf]

10. Seriously?

[geek tragedy]

14. So, what did Kenya do to deserve this attack?

Or is it only the US that's to blame when its citizens get butchered by terrorists?

[Comrade Grumpy]

31. Well, they invaded Somalia a couple of years ago to punish Al Shabab.

Al Shabab remembers even if others forget.

[geek tragedy]

50. So, taking action against terrorists justifies terrorism.

Of course, what al Shahab has really proven that the only correct approach to take with al Shahab is a policy of extermination, not containment.

[leftynyc]

16. What's the reason for this today?

What bombing are you babbling about? Are you trying to distract that Kenya is in the middle of terrorist attack where only non-Muslims or those who didn't know the prophet's name were killed? On a day when, just maybe, the Presidents of the US and Iran may do something other than snipe at eachother? What was the purpose of yet another "we deserve what we get" crap thread?

[dkf]

19. Our policies put us in danger. THAT is what I am upset about.

[leftynyc]

29. And you think this helps?

Pretending that US policy has anything to do with what's happening in Kenya?

Ask yourself a question - what change in any policy would stop jihadists from wanting to kill us? The answer is NOTHING. The jihadists want to kill us because we're not Muslims or the right kind of Muslim. Stop being so fucking myopic and looks what's going on in the world. Muslims are killing other Muslims in much greater numbers than anything happening under this administration so it's time to stop blaming the US for all the problems in the world and see what is actually right in front of you. If you think any change in US policy is going to make the Shiite and the Sunni jihadists all cozy and kumbaya or all of a sudden start treating their women like human beings, you're just fooling yourself.

[dkf]

33. I'm myopic? Because I think our policies are counterproductive to Muslim rage?

Nope we are poking the bee hive to join together a religion and injustice. How well does that work when you pick any group?

To think that our actions have no or little impact on level of emotion and therefore recruiting seems very dangerous to me.

[leftynyc]

39. Yes - you're myopic

If you think our policies are anything but the latest excuse for assholes in the region to kill. We're talking about people who murder over cartoons (that have nothing to do with American foreign policy) - just how much leeway do you want to give up? Should we watch everything we say or do in fear of some shmuck taking offense? I watch, right here on this board every single day, posters trash Christianity and they have nothing to worry about but post something negative about Islam and watch the fur fly - bullshit comparisons and even more bullshit "if they had the power here, they'd do the same". It's become nothing but a joke.

[dkf]

40. Lol are you accusing me of being anti Christian pro Muslim?

Funny.

Christian/Muslim/Jewish. It's all the same to this atheist/agnostic. I see crazy extremists and I see sane people in every group. It's not the religion, it's the person and their own aggression levels and emotions.

Some religious leaders feed that more than others and political leaders give them something to rile up against.

[leftynyc]

46. Did I say "you"

No - I did not. You're the the latest to think Americans and American foreign policy are responsible for every evil in the world and will do anything except take a good hard look at what really is going on.

[dkf]

47. Obviously we aren't responsible for it all. But I see us contributing to some of it...

And that is what I want to stop.

[FrodosPet]

49. WHICH Muslims should we be nice to?

When we blow up Muslims, we piss some off. Unfortunately, when we DON'T blow up Muslims, we piss off the other Muslims who hate them.

Let's face it - it is a lose lose situation.

[libdem4life]

18. Think Napoleon, Caesar, Nero, the Ottomans ..It is not about how other nations feel or think of us.

The Empire (like the corporation) just doesn't care as it has no sentient element...is not a person. The Empire is both D and R...they just tend to do it a bit differently. Hatred and fear ... internally and externally ... feed the Empire and gives it more reasons to exist and expand.

It does whatever is in its means to grow itself...meaning overtake, regime change, occupy, bribe them (foreign aid) keep away weapons we ourselves have, shield their people from the carnage, dictate trade rules, declare sanctions or just unilaterally go to war...because we can. Diplomacy is seldom used because it doesn't lend itself to adding to the Empire...we don't have to...until recently.

Yet, as all other Empires, at some point it becomes gorged on its own success and blind to new realities and begins to crumble.

Given the instant communications and information available to most of the non-military/government classes, it is my fervent hope that we can make use of it and slow down and/or avert what is inevitably coming ... the Downfall of the Empire. Not likely in my lifetime, But Empire has its own Wheel of Life.

[dkf]

20. Yes I see us collapsing from the weight of our excessive hubris.

And in the process they make people hate us.

[libdem4life]

22. Hopefully our Syrian stand down is a bit of good news. But seems another just takes its place

in the media...now it's Kenya all 24/7...again Muslims who have taken the place of the Communists as our eternal enemy.

The last place we are wanted (or should be) is choosing sides in internal, religious civil wars in places where we don't know/understand the culture, the language, the social mores, the religion, the history or their politics. Hubris, to be sure.