for Pit bull deniers

[Ernesto]

facts don't lie.

http://www.fatalpitbullattacks.com/

[uppityperson]

1. All that links back to dogsbite.org. About them, and your "facts"....a quick search shows pshaw....

http://bslnews.org/2012/01/24/the-real-dog-bite-statistics-plus-media-myths-colleen-lynn-exposed/

DOGSBITE.ORG website is not run by an “expert” in the field of canine behavior. It is run by a woman with a grudge. Her name is Colleen Lynn and she was the victim of a dog bite in 2007. Because of this incident that involved one individual dog she has decided to enact revenge on ALL pit bull type dogs.

Colleen Lynn blatantly lies on her website when she claims that pit bulls lead dog bite fatalities. She gathers all of her information from media reports, no questions asked. Clearly she doesn’t ask questions because most of what is reported in the media surrounding pit bulls and “attacks” is incorrect and has been repeatedly proven to be untrue.

Many question the truthfulness of Colleen’s account of what happened to her in June of 2007. Her story has changed multiple times. Pit Bulletin Legal News thoroughly investigated the incident and published these never before seen documents. It is clear to myself and many others “that Ms. Lynn never published the Seattle Animal Control records regarding the investigation because the story she is now telling bears very little resemblance to what actually happened, and are in total conflict with the only other witness involved: the dogwalker.”

While Colleen’s blatant disregard for the truth on her website is not a surprise and not unexpected, it is important for all of us to have the correct information easily available. Thankfully there is the National Canine Research Council whose dedicated staff comb through the details of every dog bite related fatality....

http://apitome.wordpress.com/2011/09/19/colleen-lynn-from-dogsbite-org-gets-it-handed-to-her-yet-again-all-those-lies-catching-up-to-you-colleen/

olleen Lynn has done several interviews about that day, and let me be yet another voice to say, why can’t you keep your story straight Colleen?

We know you were bitten, there’s no deny that, and I will say the dog that bit you, probably had some issues with no being properly socialized, attacks on humans or other animals can’t simply be swept under the rug, and there are cases where if the dog is in fact a danger to the public they should be euthanized, no question, but you have to take ownership of your decisions on that day as well Colleen if in fact that is your real name!

However lying about what happened, what’s up with that? I have recounted this before but I was also attacked as a child a Malamute attacked me, viciously in fact, injuries that required 60-70 stitches to close the wounds however I didn’t lie about what happened to me, and I didn’t go on an insane crusade to rid the world of all Malamutes, I want to see responsibility put first, but responsiblity on all parties involved. Wake up colleen, living a lie not only hurts pit bulls but you as well, truth is best hon! come clean and stop the hate parade!

http://thetruthaboutdogsbite.blogspot.com/

Qualified Expertise and Colleen Lynn
What is Colleen Lynn's qualified expertise on dog attacks?

NON

She is a web designer.

http://www.change.org/petitions/dogsbite-org-is-not-an-expert-organization-when-it-comes-to-canine-behavior
http://btoellner.typepad.com/kcdogblog/2010/03/the-truth-behind-dogsbiteorg.html

[pitbullgirl1965]

3. Good luck trying to change their mind.

They have a hate on for pit bulls. It's like Republicans: pointing out facts doesn't work with them.

[joeglow3]

17. I know. My chow bites all the time

Of course, his bite isn't strong to rip the penis off of a three year old like a pit bull did to a friend of my wife.

[pitbullgirl1965]

106. Really? I beg to differ.

The locking jaw is simply not true. I've linked to Veterinary Associations and you people still believe anything but experts and NON BIASED studies. Instead of employing critical reading skills, you believe what you read without considering the source and the agenda: the media is in the business of selling papers, and using the word pit-bull guarantee's it'll sell.

[Orrex]

107. I didn't realize that anyone actually still believed the "locking jaw" thing

I'm no fan of pit bulls, but even I know that this is a myth.

[pitbullgirl1965]

109. I'm not trying to start a flame war,

I'm just tired of people being so closed minded and stubborn. As I've already said below, I've posted links from Veterinarian societies, I'm a licensed with an A.S. degree Vet Tech who's workedfor Cornell University college of Veterinary Medicine for a decade with access to the best Vets in the country (and world) and it doesn't matter.

[joeglow3]

111. Are you fucking kidding me?

NOWHERE did I saw anything about locking jaws.

Is it your contention that a chow will do as much damage as a put bull? Again, we have a family friend whose three year old had his penis bit off in a pit bull attack. There is no "myth" about that.

[pitbullgirl1965]

120. You know what?

There is no point in talking to you people. Chows have their own aggression problems, but you don't see me bashing them or you.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

128. Did you know that pit bulls eat children?

They don't nip and let go like dogs do. The Pit Bull was bred for total destruction and anybody who claims differently is irresponsible.

I have put a link below to 'The American Journal of Forensic Medicine & Pathology'.

It is rather awful, but I think people who don't care or deny what pit bulls are doing to humans, and other animals, need to see exactly what they are doing. No other dog breed does this.

I love dogs and have three normal pet dogs. I don't understand why people want a breed of dog that does this, when there are dozens of breeds of dogs that make wonderful family pets.

THIS LINK CONTAINS VERY GRAPHIC IMAGES OF DESTRUCTION DONE TO HUMANS BY PIT BULLS.

http://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/pit-mauling-detroit-medical-report.pdf

[uppityperson]

156. So do huskys.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2102683/Our-worst-nightmare-Newborn-baby-mauled-death-husky-used-family-dog-sled-business.html

[uppityperson]

157. So so retrievers.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/months-infant-mauling-dog-attack-mcgrew-home-article-1.1237732

[uppityperson]

158. So do Jack Russells.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/9981827/Baby-boy-attacked-by-dog-in-cot.html

These 3 are from just the first page of a search. The problem is not a breed but a dog and its owners/handlers.

[flvegan]

164. How stupid.

What a fucking dumb, irresponsible and factually inaccurate thing to post.

And whoa, alert monkeys...guess what, you gotta look into this one.

Dogsbite.org, yeah, if you're too stupid to think.

"bred for total destruction and anybody who claims differently is irresponsible" Unless you're stupid, vapid and feckless, knowing nothing else but what you think...which is wrong.

C'mon, let's dance.

[Marrah_G]

23. Malamutes can be very dangerous, so can a number of other breeds

The difference...in my opinion, is the sheer number of Pit bulls out there. They are cheap or free and the people getting them have very little clue on how to deal with them. They are disposable for lack of a better term.

My guy has a Malamute, he has owned them before. He knows the breed well and taught me. The difference is we KNOW how dangerous she can be if WE do not do our job of controlling her behavior.

I now have an 8 month old husky and I work hard every day to make sure he knows that he is at the bottom of the pack... even below the cat. I am fully aware how dangerous he could be if I do not do my job.

Every time I hear someone say that Pit bulls are sweetie pies, harmless, gentle as a bunny and just have a bad rap, I cringe, because those are the owners, in my opinion, most likely to have a problem. If they refuse to acknowledge the power and strength that animal has then why would they ever put in the work to ensure their pet does not hurt another person or another animal.

Personally I think that all dog owners should be required to take a class before being able to own a dog. That goes double for owners of breeds that we know can easily kill a person if they want to.

And lastly, the pack problem. To many people get these power animals and then another and another and another. Easy to do when you get get them for free or close to free. Then you have a pack running around in the back yard. It does not take much for that to go VERY bad.

[uppityperson]

24. Larger dogs can potentially cause more damage more quickly. And packs of any sort are bad.

[Marrah_G]

25. I agree

But my birth moms pack of pomeranians is more annoying then scary. If that was a pack of large breed dogs, especially those with more volatile temperaments....I would never step foot in her house..

I wish people would take more time to learn about the breeds they are bringing into their homes. It would lead to less bites and less animals ending up in shelters.

[get the red out]

154. This is absolutely true

And there is a lot of disinformation around about various kinds of dogs also. I don't believe Pit Bulls are inherently evil, nor do I believe just anyone is cut out to handle one (as so many well-meaining people in the dog world, so to speak, imply due to their overpopulation). Likewise my Border Collie mix would be a poor choice for someone who didn't want to do activities with their dog.

[Lancero]

54. The NRA also says similar...

About the "Facts" of Gun violence.

Gun owners and Pitt owners share a lot of similarities.

[uppityperson]

64. Try this...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3750144

[OwnedByCats]

73. That's a very unfair blanket

generalization, considering deaths from pit bulls are minuscule in comparison to almost every other kind of death, deaths from guns most especially. At least the dogs do not know any better whereas people should know it's wrong to shoot others unless their very life depends on it.

It is still one of the most rarest ways to die. More people died from lightening. This mass hysteria on this topic is ridiculous. Guns are a million times worse of a problem and pit bull supporters are just as bad as those spouting NRA talking points? Get real.

While we have so many pit bulls or pit bull mixes yet only 21, maybe 22 died from a pit bull attack in 2012, that's if they were even identified correctly in the first place.

You would be very hard pressed to find people who work with pit bulls or rescue them that would share these ignorant opinions because they actually know what they are talking about through their experience.

Stop buying into all the crap you read on the internet and acting like you're some kind of expert and actually volunteer at a pit bull rescue organization and learn about them first hand.

[Jenoch]

132. I have never owned a pit bull.

I would be more uneasy at encountering a stranger walking with a pit bull down the street than encountering a stranger open carrying a gun while walking down the street.

[pitbullgirl1965]

136. Ahhahaaaa!!!

Omfg. Really? With all the massacres we've had?

[OwnedByCats]

137. The problem is

statistically speaking, you have a far better chance of getting shot than to be killed by a pit bull. So far this year, there have been almost 26,000 deaths by firearms. So far, there has been 23 fatal dog attacks - allegedly 83% were committed by a pit bull type or mix.

Personally, I'd rather take my chances with something least likely to kill me than the staggeringly better chance of something that will kill me. I'm just weird that way I guess.

[baldguy]

143. "Allegedly" - the big exception that the irrational Pit Bull haters ignore.

Media reports get the breed wrong 80% of the time.

[OwnedByCats]

147. Well you know how it is

Apparently I can't ID a pit bull without DNA as best as I can because it's a good natured one - it can't possibly be a pit bull if it's not tearing my face apart, but certain people can ID no problem simply based on aggressive behavior.

We can misidentify til the cows come home but all their aggressive dogs are obviously pit bulls.

Just stupid

[baldguy]

149. .

An oldie, but a goodie.

[OwnedByCats]

160. LOL

Yep, that's about right! lol

[Marrah_G]

148. Most people are more frightened by a vicious dog (or what they think is one) then a gun

I think it's something biological. Like a criminal who is more afraid of the police dog then the policeman holding the gun. It's not logical, it's not based on facts...but it is human.

[OwnedByCats]

161. That's why I try to put it into perspective

26,000 deaths in a nine month period versus 20.

But then if we are talking about someone with an extreme dog phobia, those numbers won't matter.

[baldguy]

122. Got it in one.

http://www.nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/dogbites/dog-bite-related-fatalities/

[uppityperson]

124. "BREED ATTRIBUTION IN DOG BITE-RELATED FATALITIES IS UNRELIABLE"?

Thank you for this link too.

The news media regularly describe dogs as members of breeds. However, recent developments in canine genetics, along with extensive surveys conducted by university researchers, show that breed identification of dogs of unknown origin based on visual inspection does not correspond with DNA analysis of the same dogs. Equally important, the professionals surveyed disagreed with each other when they attributed a breed or mix of breeds to the same dog.

Unfounded assumptions about the significance of breed and misplaced confidence in visual breed identification have diverted us from a consideration of factors pertinent to the discussion of community safety and dog ownership.NCRC investigations of the dog bite-related fatalities in 2011 showed that in only eight of the cases could the breed descriptors assigned to the dogs be documented, or otherwise considered reasonable. We have reliably identified six different breeds of dogs in those eight 2011 incidents.

SUMMARY: IMPROVING COMMUNITY SAFETY AND DOG OWNERSHIP PRACTICES
(clip)
“The whole model is about responsible pet ownership . . . In North America, we don’t really have an animal problem: we’ve got a people problem. I think that’s the first realization you’ve got to come to. It’s not about the animal, it’s bout the people.”
- Bill Bruce, former Executive Director, Calgary Animal and Bylaw Services

[pitbullgirl1965]

127. It's always about people imho.

We do more damage to animals and each other. Just look at some of the responses on here AND the OP who dropped his nugget of misinformation and fled.
I don't know how anyone can hate one type of animal period. I don't hate coyotes even though they killed my cat years ago. If you're a person who singles out one type of animal to get your hate on, you obviously don't know anything about animals to begin with.

[.99center]

2. Amazing

Out of the millions of Pit bulls from 150 years ago until now, only a recorded 372 people have been fatally injured. Facts don't lie, we should be worrying about real threats to our safety.

[joeglow3]

18. Same argument NRA has for school shootings

[Decaffeinated]

71. Are you claiming that it is unethical to use math?

[OwnedByCats]

74. Yep, this right here.

[Warpy]

4. Pit bulls don't bite any more often than most breeds

and considerably less than poodles or dachshunds.

The problem with pit bulls is that they're all jaw. When they do bite, they will cause significantly more damage, especially to toddlers who don't know that doggy doesn't like to be picked up by the ears.

I honestly wouldn't own one with kids under 10 in the house.

However, every single one I've met has been a sweetheart of a dog.

[pnwmom]

12. Pit bulls bites are a far higher proportion of bites that require hospitalization.

Please show me the data that prove poodles are responsible for considerably more bites overall.

http://www.dog-bite-law-center.com/pgs/stats.html

This breed is variously cited as being responsible for nearly a third of all fatal dog attacks in the United States, in part due to its tenacity in a fight. Pit bulls cause one-third of dog-bite related fatalities while only make up less than 2% of the dog population.

[flvegan]

14. Back up your statements with legit data.

Can't help but notice you don't respond to me anymore.

So again, legit data. Merritt Clifton isn't. Neither is that tired CDC report most idiots stroll out. Ambulance chasing "lawyers" with nothing else to do but profit from ignorance based on Google-happy idiots, not going to work.

"its tenacity in a fight" Back that up. Dog population (this should be rich!), back that up!

Pit bull haters, as usual, have absolutely nothing but shit to back up their anger and personal agenda against the breed.

[pnwmom]

52. I was responding to someone who, without any data from any source,

claimed that poodles bite considerably more than pits.

Do you have data that backs that up?

Here's some:

http://www.livescience.com/27145-are-pit-bulls-dangerous.html


A five-year review of dog-bite injuries from the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, published in 2009 in the journal Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery, found that almost 51 percent of the attacks were from pit bulls, almost 9 percent were from Rottweilers and 6 percent were from mixes of those two breeds.

In other words, a whopping two-thirds of the hospital's dog-attack injuries involved just two breeds, pit bulls and Rottweilers.

Other studies confirm these statistics: A 15-year study published in 2009 in the American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology revealed that pit bulls, Rottweilers and German shepherds were responsible for the majority of fatal dog attacks in the state of Kentucky. [See What Your Dog's Breed Says About You]

And a 2011 study from the Annals of Surgery revealed that "attacks by pit bulls are associated with higher morbidity rates, higher hospital charges and a higher risk of death than are attacks by other breeds of dogs."

The authors of that 2011 study go on to say, "Strict regulation of pit bulls may substantially reduce the U.S. mortality rates related to dog bites."

[Boudica the Lyoness]

133. See my post above for some facts.

[flvegan]

163. You don't really have any clue about dogs, outside your own personal little opinion, do you?

Answer that. I say this in lieu of laughing outright at your "some facts" posts.

I'll just leave this here, waiting for your response as I really just don't want to embarrass you on what you posted.

But if you attempt to back it up, I'll call your stupidity/fraud out.

[Recursion]

46. OFFS. Post the DNA analyses of the dogs or shut up

I'm so sick of this ridiculous bullshit. This is how conservatives act.

You have no ****ing idea what breed a dog is unless you do a DNA analysis or have breeding papers. Stop pretending you do.

[pnwmom]

55. These researchers disagree with you.

http://www.livescience.com/27145-are-pit-bulls-dangerous.html

A five-year review of dog-bite injuries from the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, published in 2009 in the journal Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery, found that almost 51 percent of the attacks were from pit bulls, almost 9 percent were from Rottweilers and 6 percent were from mixes of those two breeds.

In other words, a whopping two-thirds of the hospital's dog-attack injuries involved just two breeds, pit bulls and Rottweilers.

Other studies confirm these statistics: A 15-year study published in 2009 in the American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology revealed that pit bulls, Rottweilers and German shepherds were responsible for the majority of fatal dog attacks in the state of Kentucky. [See What Your Dog's Breed Says About You]

And a 2011 study from the Annals of Surgery revealed that "attacks by pit bulls are associated with higher morbidity rates, higher hospital charges and a higher risk of death than are attacks by other breeds of dogs."

The authors of that 2011 study go on to say, "Strict regulation of pit bulls may substantially reduce the U.S. mortality rates related to dog bites."

[Warpy]

61. I was talking about bites, not fatal attacks

Bites cover a lot more territory. See below.

[pnwmom]

104. Where below? I still haven't seen anything about poodles biting more than pit bulls. n/t

[pitbullgirl1965]

103. How about stricter regulations of their owners?

1- There is a tendency to call dogs that resemble pitbulls, pitbulls.

2 -Confirmation bias:http://www.psychologyandsociety.com/confirmationbias.html


3- An agenda: during Hurricane Katrina photo captions: two African Americans carrying food through the flood waters were looting. Two white people found food. Dog whistles like this are commonplace.

4. Dogs kept on chains are far more aggressive. I'm betting the owners kept them on chains with very little human contact, beat them, withheld food, water.

5. How many of these children (little brats) teasing or abusing the dog? In one of my training books, the trainer rescued a lab mix that was due to be put down?
His crime? A bunch of children were chasing him with a stick and throwing stones at him. He bite them to protect himself. (little bastards)

6.The American Veterinary Medical Association is against breed bans, which is exactly what the "expert" is urging. Who's the experts?
I am a Veterinary Technician who works for a major Veterinary college. They have more knowledge and experience then the so called experts above. I notice these studies rarely if ever interview animals behaviorists or Veterinarians.
And before you say Vets are vets because they couldn't get into medical school: It's easier to get into Medical school. Human doctors only deal with one species. Veterinarians treat cattle, horses, dogs, cats, pocket pets, reptiles, birds et al. My Vet is has a dairy farm and a vet practice and deals with almost all of the above.

You're mind is already made up, plus I see you're a mom, and in my experience, parents tend to believe that all children (esp. their children) are little angels who would never provoke or hurt an animal. Those kids chasing that poor dog were asking for it, but guess who paid the price?

also Michel Vicks dogs have been successfully adapted out, despise the torture they endured.

Finally from the horses mouthhttp://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/Working+with+patients+-+technicians/Study-Chihuahuas-bite-vets-most-Lhaso-Apsos-inflic/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/613820

[Donald Ian Rankin]

70. That's simply nonsense.

"Can't be certain a dog is purebred, and can't always tell" is not remotely the same thing as "have no idea".

A dog expert trying to guess breed by looking at a dog won't always be right, sure. But they'll be right an awful lot of the time.

[Warpy]

60. My list was out of date

Here is the current one:

http://listdose.com/top-10-dog-breeds-that-bite-the-most/

The problem with pit bulls is that when they do bite, they do so much damage.

Here's a handy dandy list of which dogs are likeliest to bite and which people are likeliest to be bitten:

http://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics.php

Note that children under 10 are the most frequent victims. That's why I'd never have a pit bull around kids younger than 10. 10 and above have a little better sense of when a dog is getting provoked rather than simply engaging in rough play.

[flvegan]

5. Let us know when you have some, eh?

Or at least, please, look up what "facts" means before you embarrass yourself again.

[Coventina]

6. It's amazing. I haven't been on DU for about 3 years or so...

And NOTHING seems to have changed!

Don't even know if you remember me or not, but I had that feral GSD mix that I found almost exactly 4 years ago now.

Still have him. Somehow, between working with him and I guess his own innate good nature, but he's a totally different dog now.
As gentle, obedient, and friendly as if he'd been properly nurtured from birth.

I've had people tell me that they used to fear large dogs until they met him.

I smile and say thank you and remember how scared I was those early days.

Just goes to show, a little effort, patience, and love can totally turn around a "scary" dog.

Just for giggles, we did one of those DNA tests on him. Turns out he's 1/2 GSD, and 1/4 Akita! The other 1/4 not even the DNA test could tell for sure.

Anyway, it warms my heart to see you still here, fighting the good fight.

[flvegan]

7. I'm so happy for your success!

That is one lucky dog to have had someone put in the time and effort (and I do remember you). So often, those dogs come out the other side as...dogs.

Thank you for what you said about me. DU has it's flaws, sometimes I'm one of them. Otherwise, a great place with great people. And sometimes, I guess I'm one of them.

Good to see you. Cheers to you and your pup!

[ErikJ]

34. Most recent pitbull attacks

Google News "Pitbull attack"

https://www.google.com/search?q=pitbullattack&oq=pitbullattack&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.12202j0&sourceid=chrome&espvd=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8#es_sm=93&q=pitbull+attack&safe=off&spell=1&tbm=nws

[get the red out]

155. PICS!

I want to see your dog, he sounds beautiful!

[pnwmom]

56. Maybe you should write these researchers with your "facts."

http://www.livescience.com/27145-are-pit-bulls-dangerous.html

A five-year review of dog-bite injuries from the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, published in 2009 in the journal Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery, found that almost 51 percent of the attacks were from pit bulls, almost 9 percent were from Rottweilers and 6 percent were from mixes of those two breeds.

In other words, a whopping two-thirds of the hospital's dog-attack injuries involved just two breeds, pit bulls and Rottweilers.

Other studies confirm these statistics: A 15-year study published in 2009 in the American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology revealed that pit bulls, Rottweilers and German shepherds were responsible for the majority of fatal dog attacks in the state of Kentucky.

And a 2011 study from the Annals of Surgery revealed that "attacks by pit bulls are associated with higher morbidity rates, higher hospital charges and a higher risk of death than are attacks by other breeds of dogs."

The authors of that 2011 study go on to say, "Strict regulation of pit bulls may substantially reduce the U.S. mortality rates related to dog bites."

[flvegan]

118. I'd love to!

"Emergency room records" garnered from where? From whom?

So again, facts...

[pitbullgirl1965]

121. I wouldn't even bother with her.

She keeps posting the same link over and over, and hasn't even responded to my post. What a bunch of jerks.

[rrneck]

8. Anectdotal evidence

I have been around any number of dogs that might have been pits. They looked liked pits to me. The only mean dog I have ever seen was a Golden Retriever. That dog made it abundantly clear that she would tear my leg off if she got the chance.

[2theleft]

10. My friend has a "big, scary" german shedpherd and a golden...

the golden is the one that will bite strangers if they come in the yard, while the gsd brings them his ball...

[Recursion]

9. It's the same problem as "assault weapon"

Everybody has their idea of what the phrase means but when you try to actually implement that you wind up with a bunch of silly laws that are easy to work around. You can't simply ban "scary looking dog" or "scary looking gun".

Even dog breeders cannot accurately identify pit bulls, let alone people being attacked by a dog.

[pnwmom]

11. And that doesn't include any of the dogs who have been attacked, like my 30 pound

mini-labradoodle, who was attacked by a loose pit bull while she was on a hiking trail with my son. We got off easy -- her surgery "only" cost $900; and, physically, at least, she's recovered.

[LeftyMom]

13. You've posted on DU about your pit bull phobia since before you bought that dog.

You insisted that you had to go to a breeder (for a "mini labradoodle" no less, which is an expensive way of saying a mutt) because your local shelters were full of pit bulls and nothing but pit bulls. Pages and pages of Petfinder links to lovely dogs needing homes in your vicinity could not dissuade you.

One could almost reach the conclusion that any dog bigger than a breadbox that makes you nervous is a pit bull.

[pnwmom]

15. My older labradoodle is 11 years old. And pit bulls USED to be the most common breed at

the local humane society. But now, there are more Chihuahuas. And no, I don't want one of those either, even if they're smaller than a breadbox.

(We wanted a dog that didn't shed, like a poodle. And we wanted a medium sized dog, and poodles are either small or large. So a poodle mix was the best choice for us.)

As of today, 18/39 available dogs at the Seattle Humane Society are Chihuahuas. No thanks.

http://www.seattlehumane.org/adopt/pets/dogs/all/sort/available

http://www.thedogdaily.com/conduct/behavior/chihuahua_pitbull/#axzz2gLcnCeYp

Are Chihuahuas the New Pit Bulls?

Holding Lily the Chihuahua required a gentle touch recently at a hair salon, for fear of breaking one of her bird-like bones that could be felt through her thin fur and skin. Sitting still on my lap, she stared appreciatively into my eyes as she waited for her owner, Allison Lindquist, executive director of the East Bay SPCA in California. When finished, Lindquist told me, "I'm worried about all Chihuahuas now. They're on their way to becoming the next pit bulls."

She explains that dog breed popularity can follow trends. Due to the latest breed "fashion" and Disney's movie Beverly Hills Chihuahua, more people have been bringing home tiny breeds, particularly Chihuahuas, and then dumping them off at shelters not long afterwards. The same thing has happened to pit bulls over the years, since they have an established "tough and cool" image. She says, "Sadly, many people do little research into breed characteristics and don't understand and commit to the responsibilities of lifetime ownership of a puppy or dog."



Read more: Are Chihuahuas the New Pit Bulls? http://www.thedogdaily.com/conduct/behavior/chihuahua_pitbull/#ixzz2gLd8eal3

[LeftyMom]

22. I'm glad you found a dog you love, but my point is that you have a well established phobia.

Dog breed identification is dicey even for experts (thus those dog DNA kits) and in an emergency with a phobic person?

[pnwmom]

27. I wasn't the one who identified the pit who attacked our dog.

I wasn't phobic about pit bulls -- just realistic, given the statistics on serious dog bites.

And my 6 foot 2 inch son isn't afraid of any dog breed. He kicked the pit bull off our dog, but the pit had already done the damage.

Regardless of whether you think pit bulls and pit bull mixes can be identified, the Humane Society doesn't hesitate to do so.

[uppityperson]

65. Oh, plenty of people do not hesitate to incorrectly ID pitbulls.

[pnwmom]

66. Pit bulls were bred long before DNA tests became available.

And researchers don't have qualms about studying them.


http://www.livescience.com/27145-are-pit-bulls-dangerous.html

A five-year review of dog-bite injuries from the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, published in 2009 in the journal Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery, found that almost 51 percent of the attacks were from pit bulls, almost 9 percent were from Rottweilers and 6 percent were from mixes of those two breeds.

In other words, a whopping two-thirds of the hospital's dog-attack injuries involved just two breeds, pit bulls and Rottweilers.

Other studies confirm these statistics: A 15-year study published in 2009 in the American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology revealed that pit bulls, Rottweilers and German shepherds were responsible for the majority of fatal dog attacks in the state of Kentucky.

And a 2011 study from the Annals of Surgery revealed that "attacks by pit bulls are associated with higher morbidity rates, higher hospital charges and a higher risk of death than are attacks by other breeds of dogs."

The authors of that 2011 study go on to say, "Strict regulation of pit bulls may substantially reduce the U.S. mortality rates related to dog bites."

[uppityperson]

67. As I said, many people do incorrectly ID pit bulls. Were any of those correctly id'd by DNA testing

which is available?

[pnwmom]

68. I don't know. I tend to doubt it. nt

[uppityperson]

69. In which case, the wrong iding of dogs proves nothing beyond too many people got bit.

[pnwmom]

114. I'm reading that sentence and trying to guess -- but I can't. What are you saying? n/t

[uppityperson]

115. Since too many dogs are incorrectly ID'd, all inaccurate #s mean is too many people got bit.

Inaccurate IDing shows not that any particular style or breed of dog is at fault.

[azurnoir]

113. here find the pitbull it took me more than 1 try and I have a 1/2 pit 1/2 pointer

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html

[Electric Monk]

16. "Pit bull deniers" sounds like you're referring to people who deny that pitbulls exist. nt

[Recursion]

19. I deny they exist

There's a technical breeding definition, which has nothing to do with the way the phrase is actually used, which is simply to mean "large Molosser dog".

[LeftyMom]

20. I've had so many people cross the street shouting about pit bulls to get away from my leashed Boxer

[Recursion]

21. Boxers, Rotts, mastiffs, bulldogs

I've seen all of those called "pit bulls" in media reports.

[flvegan]

26. What happened to the OP?

He/she/it came in here, so seemingly bolstered by point and cause, garnishing anger...or hate, for a dog. Why? Especially when so ineptly armed.

Yes, "facts don't lie"

Like the one about how some folks are idiots.

But one is left to wonder why such a statement, abandoned. Hmmmm...

[Marrah_G]

29. Not everyone realizes that that is not a credible source of facts

I know I didn't. Until you lashed out at me in a less then polite way. Yes, you educated me, but you could have done it in a nicer way. Not everyone who cites that study is doing so for malicious reasons. Sometimes...we just didn't know. Anyway, I just really needed to say that to you. Sometimes you are alot harsher then you need to be and it makes people tune out instead of actually listening and learning. Had you not been someone I already respected from years on DU, I probably would have reacted very differently.

[OwnedByCats]

77. The problem is

that generally speaking, they've made up their minds after reading complete bs on the internet, refuse to either get first hand experience or be even slightly open minded about the subject, acting like they are some type of expert. Will most take on board even just a little what people who actually have the experience have to say? No, they don't. Oh we must be full of bs because they read on the internet that pit bulls are nasty from birth and should all be destroyed. Some get nasty with us too. It's frustrating to be baited into this every single time some busy body finds a pit bull negative news story or web site.

I'm not referring to you, btw.... but there are plenty of these types of people here.

[wercal]

88. Are you kidding me?

"....refuse to either get first hand experience"

I think you would be surprised to know that the vast majority of people who don't like Pit Bulls have had very up close and personal first hand encounters with Pit Bulls.

"... they've made up their minds after reading complete bs on the internet"

You do understand that breed specific legislation against Pit Bulls pre-dates the interwebs, right? For some reason, I can't imagine why, even without all the 'bs' on the internet, people were smart enough to know Pit Bulls were dangerous.

[OwnedByCats]

95. Yeah, they had an experience with vicious ones

who most likely was turned into a bad dog because it's owner was an asshole. That is not the vast majority of pit bulls my friend, and I'm sorry to say that the vast majority of pit bull haters on this board did not have anywhere near the experience of those who do get involved in helping or owning them. They either know someone who has or they read about it happening all the time! Who cares about the facts of each case, the media sure as hell doesn't! If pit bulls were as much of a problem as they are made out to be, you'd have a lot more than 20 some odd deaths per year. Having had one or two bad experiences doesn't make you a fucking expert. It means behind that dog, in most cases, was an asshole who did not do right by that dog. Whether that is the present owner or a previous owner and some people are unlucky enough to wind up involved in an altercation. Talk to people who work with them every day, who know everything about them (flvegan as an example), put their life's work into rescuing and rehabilitating these dogs. Those people are the ones who know what they're talking about.

I also really don't give a shit that this bullshit legislation was written before the "interwebs". It doesn't change the fact that number one, it's written by legislators who don't know shit about dogs, much less specifically pit bulls in general. Number two, most people who go online get a huge amount of their news and information online. People like you link to a bunch of sites that are quite frankly full of shit. Just like this legislation. The internet is full of fodder for people with an agenda. Discriminating against a whole breed, or breed type, is bull shit. It's just as ignorant as believing black people are somehow less than human just because they're black, or any other generalization associated with color, sex, sexual orientation or nationality. All dogs have different personalities and idiosyncrasies, there is no carbon copy dog where they all behave the same. And just like with people who are abused by their family growing up, some dogs are affected negatively by their piece of shit owner.

In a non rescue situation, I worked with over 80 pit bulls, owned by responsible and loving people who know what they're doing. Not a single one had an aggression issue, never even so much as growled at me or my colleagues and were some of the most friendly dogs we had the pleasure of taking care of. Do you think there might be some kind of correlation there? Oh no, I guess I'm so special and lucky so it doesn't count. I'm the exception, of course.

Judge by the deed, not the breed. Of course for me because I love animals, ALL animals, I understand that animals are the ones who don't know any better. People on the other hand should know better. They should know better not to ever abuse an animal and the rest of us should know that this abuse can have terrible consequences and we should work to end that abuse and neglect. You aren't going to do that by culling an entire breed. How fucking ignorant. You go to the source of the problem because guess what? Take away pit bulls and guess what happens? Other dogs take their place because of sick bastards who seem to get off on having a vicious dog. I lived in a country for some years that banned the breed. So then all of a sudden Dobermans, Rottweilers and the occasional German Shepherd were the baby killers. You don't eradicate the problem by culling a breed, all you do is shift the malignment to another breed and you still have a fucking problem!

As a kid growing up in the 80's, Dobermans and Rottweilers were the dangerous ones. I never heard a peep about the pit bulls. Now it's pit bulls and all seems forgiven to the Dobies and Rotties. Any dog can be vicious if trained/abused/neglected. I want to see the ones responsible for this to be punished, but killing all the pit bulls is nothing but a band aid on a severed artery and it's lazy. There is no easy solution but that seems to be all the legislators and anti pit bull people want the easy route which will never work with this issue.

[wercal]

102. Thanks for your opinion

"Having had one or two bad experiences doesn't make you a fucking expert."

So by your standards, unless I own pit bulls and interact with them every day, I am unqualified to use my own common sense and determine they're dangerous?

Its a good thing I don't use the same logic with the lions at the zoo.

You know your cuddly pit bull, that never hurts anyone? The one you never heard a peep about in the '80's?

Our neighbor had one (in the 1970's btw...imagine that).

We knew that dog for years. We were best friends with the owner. We spent countless hours around this very unaggressive dog. Nobody would have ever expected it would hurt anyone.

Then one day it attacked my brother.

My brother was eating a candy cane...and this dog wanted it. It just pounced and took my brother to the ground. It came out of nowhere.

Every once in a while, a lion kills its trainer. Nobody sees it coming...but a lion is still a wild animal, no matter how domesticated...and the wrong move or signal can set it off. Same goes for those cuddly pit bulls.

I told you I worked at the shelter. For more than a year, I worked with the dogs...walked the dogs...saw how they socialized with other dogs. During this time, people like you convinced the city and county to scrap breed specific legislation. They patted themselves on the back, felt good about themselves...and a young girl was promptly mauled to death. But I digress. Suddenly, pit bulls were adoptable, and they were with all the other dogs I worked with.

The first thing I noticed - the extreme aggression of pit bull puppies. They would stand on each other trying to bite at me through the cage. I knew they couldn't bite me...but the way they trampled each other's faces was very unique to the pit bulls (oh yeah, the vet classifies the dogs, and she labeled them as pit bulls - but I'm sure they were boxers or some other nonsense).

The next thing I noticed - they tried to get at the other dogs. Whenever I would try to lead a dog out of its cage, the pit would reach its paw or snout between the piping of the fence, and try to harm the dog. Every single time. Without fail.

The last thing I noticed - the pits tried to bite me. Walking in and out of a cage involved manipulating a latch, which latched to a common post between two cages. Every single time I was in a cage next to a pit, the pit would try to bite my hand when
I went for the latch. This was consistent - it never did not happen.

I never observed any of this behavior from any other dogs. Just the pit bulls. And these were the pit bulls deemed 'adoptable'...the cuddliest ones out of the whole lot. So I've got a little experience with pit bulls....and every single interaction I have ever had with one has left me with a bad impression. Hopefully, by your high standards, that makes me a 'fucking expert'.

Maybe the 80 dogs you worked with were really great danes, with a hint of bulldawg...and you've mistakenly thought pit bulls were nice and cuddly all the time. Did you do a DNA test to make sure they were really pit bulls?

[OwnedByCats]

112. You should have the common

sense to be careful of any dog you are not familiar with. It's not just pit bulls that can lash out. Some people kill other people, does that mean all human beings kill? Of course not.

Breed specific legislation is discrimination. Period. Should I paint all types of a specific person based on their color, nationality, gender, sexual orientation to be a certain way just because a small percentage in each category can be evil human beings? My mind doesn't work like that. Maybe you think it's ok because "it's just a dog", and your disdain for them is noted, but I don't think that way. Human beings are mostly the cause of problem dogs. That's not to say there aren't exceptions, but for the most part that is the case.

Now a little girl was mauled to death by a pit bull and you want to blame the lack of legislation??? Unreal. What about the children in pit bull free zones that are mauled to death by other dogs? You gonna ban Dobermans and Rottweilers too? Where does it end? Tell all the kids in the United Kingdom killed by Dobies and Rotties it's all ok because they weren't pit bulls! It's a PEOPLE problem, not a breed specific problem. Take away pit bulls, the thugs will just find other scary looking dogs to manipulate. Will Mastiffs be next?

Great Dane? Are you fucking serious?? You do realize that between the size difference and the differences in the look of the two breeds, Great Danes (even with a hint of, as you put it, bulldawg) aren't going to be confused for pit bulls, right? Only a complete moron maybe. In order to ID a pit bull as best you can without DNA, one should be familiar with what physical attributes make them a pit bull and of course even then you can't be 100% sure, as with the example I made about the lab/boxer mix. If I can't be sure, as you suggested, neither can you - cancels out that argument entirely. I would never be ignorant enough to tell you vicious pit bulls don't exist because they do. However you are suggesting to me that the dogs I have been around were most likely not even pit bulls, but maybe Great Danes??? You cannot be serious. What makes you believe all the dogs you claim were pit bulls, maybe they were Vizsla's mixed with a hint of Boston Terrier? Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? Having a bad attitude about these dogs can have an effect on how they react to you as well. You think dogs can't sense your trepidation about them? Every single pit bull you come into contact with is a problem, even puppies. Very interesting. So how have you managed to avoid dismemberment or death? After all they are sooooo aggressive with you.

My experience I mentioned only counted for pit bulls raised in the ideal environments - although some were rescues. But in rescue, it can be a different story however most of the ones who were abused are open to a kind person and even be loving while they are nothing but skin and bones or recovering from horrendous injuries. Much like people, dogs will either thrive away from their abuser, or they become mean and trust no one. Unfortunately those that cannot be rehabilitated are put down because that is a necessary evil with an unpredictable animal that cannot or will not rise above their trauma. We obviously can't take those kinds of risks with the public. But here is a clue for you. Pit bulls do not have the market cornered on aggression. The only thing that saves the Chihuahua from breed specific legislation is the fact that they aren't big enough to do enough damage. If they or any other small dog suddenly grew 10 times bigger, they'd be on the chopping block too. It's like the difference between getting T-boned by a Mini Cooper and a tractor trailer. Of course the tractor trailer is going to cause a ton more damage and is highly more likely to be fatal.

Fixing the problem is not the culling of a whole breed and if that's the kind of shit you want, then I hope you are the one that shows up at a residence to seize a "pit bull", who by the way NEVER hurt anyone, NEVER bit anyone, NEVER even so much has been reported by a neighbor for barking too much, try to tell their owners, who have done EVERYTHING right, that you are coming to kill their dog. Why? Just because of it's breed or that it may be a pit bull mix. No other reason. I would say how would you feel being the one to give the injection - but I get the feeling you'd be completely unmoved anyway. After all, they all hate you apparently and the feeling is evidently mutual. It says more about you than it does them.

Have a nice day

[pitbullgirl1965]

126. 1000X

n/t

[flvegan]

129. You have my apologies.

And I thank you for saying that to me. On this topic I may lash out, and I may be harsh.

Having long-standing folks here on DU that post things about this breed, including advocating their extermination, will always get my attention. These dogs are my clients, I work for them, and I suggest those people govern themselves accordingly.

[Marrah_G]

145. It's okay

and I admire you so much for the work you do on behalf of these animals.

[OwnedByCats]

75. You know how it works

Haters gotta hate on something and post this hit and run bullshit to cause a debate, a very tired one at that.

[Javaman]

83. hit and run post.

drop a flaming bag of poop and run like hell.

I give little to no credence to such posts.

[pitbullgirl1965]

125. Good question.

Just someone who likes to fan the flames and a few other nasty people on here I see. Someone twisted around what I said about crating my pitbull when kids are over. He's not used to small children so I'm not taking a chance same with my other, 30 lbs terrior mix dog.
Somehow that was twisted into my dog is so dangerous around kids he has to be kept away from them. Assholes.

[OwnedByCats]

139. What you do is called being

a responsible and conscientious dog owner. This must have escaped their attention. Any dog should be crated if they are not used to small ones. It's better to be safe than sorry.

[Skittles]

28. all I know is my own experiences

all the pit bulls I have met / known in my life have been major sweetie pies

[ErikJ]

30. Pit bull mauls 5-year-old boy to death in Baker City Sep 28, 2013

BAKER CITY, Ore. (AP) — Authorities say a pit bull has mauled a 5-year-old boy to death in Baker City.

District Attorney Matt Shirtcliff tells the Baker City Herald the attack happened Friday morning and remains under investigation. The boy was at a friend's home when the dog attacked.

Police Chief Wyn Lohner says the pit bull has been impounded and poses no further threat. He says more information will be released Monday.

The boy has been identified as Jordan Ryan of Baker City.

A memorial will be held Sunday night in front of the kindergarten he attended. An organizer, Cassie Glerup, says candles will be lit and balloons will be released.

http://www.katu.com/news/local/Pit-bull-fatally-mauls-5-year-old-boy-in-Baker-City-225662591.html

[ErikJ]

31. Family members arrested in fatal pit bull mauling of 2-year-old boy--Sept 24

Police have arrested two family members of a 2-year-old boy who was mauled to death by a group of pit bulls in Colton on Monday.

San Bernardino County jail records show Marco Zamudio, 23, and Eustulia Zamudio, 42, were arrested on suspicion of child endangerment hours after their 2-year-old relative, Samuel Zamudio of Rialto, was attacked in a backyard in Colton.

KNBC-TV identified the pair as Samuel’s uncle and grandmother. Each is being held in lieu of $100,000 bail.

PHOTOS: Toddler mauled to death by pit bulls

“They weren’t keeping track of their pit bulls,” neighbor Monica Cancino told KTLA-TV. “I understand there was four at one time. And I recently heard there was five.”

Samuel was pronounced dead at a local hospital Monday night after he was attacked by as many as five of the dogs, which were described as pit bull mixes.

The attack took place about 5 p.m. at the home of the child's uncle in the 700 block of Citrus Street, Colton police said.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-colton-mauling-arrests-20130924,0,2633065.story?track=rss

[ErikJ]

32. Three pit bulls attack man, 79, walking dog at George Wyth--Sept. 20, 2013

Three pit bulls attack man, 79, walking dog at George Wyth


September 19, 2013 5:15 pm • By Courier Staff

WATERLOO | A 79-year-old man and his dog needed medical attention after being attacked Wednesday by three pit bulls in George Wyth State Park.

Bill Winder, of Waterloo, and Snickers, his soft-coated Wheaton terrier, were the latest victims in a rash of dog attacks prompting city leaders to take stock of their animal control laws.

"The dog and I go out to George Wyth about every day and walk," Winder said. "We were on a trail going south by the sanctuary and these three pit bulls come charging up to where we're at and proceed to work my dog over.

"They had no collars, no tags and no leash," he said. "It's one thing to go someplace and let your dog run loose, but you've got to be able to control the things."

The attack occurred around 3 p.m.

Winder received 14 puncture wounds to his arms as he attempted to get the pit bulls off his 50 lb. dog. Two women, who apparently owned the pit bulls, also pulled the dogs off and got them into a nearby vehicle.

"I told them I needed their name and number, but they bailed," he said.

Capt. Tim Pillack of the Waterloo Police Department said Thursday that the unknown females and their vehicle had not been located yet.

Winder was taken to Allen Hospital and treated for wounds to both arms, and received rabies shots. Snickers was taken to a veterinarian in Cedar Falls with severe bites on both sides of his neck and Winder was still waiting to see if his pet will be all right.

"He's a very good dog, a gentle dog," Winder said.

Waterloo Animal Control officials have acknowledged they believe the city has a problem with pit bulls following several attacks in the past month, including one that left a 65-year-old woman with severe leg injuries and another where a pit bull invaded a Waterloo home.

City staff have been directed to look for ways to strengthen the city's animal control ordinances while pet owners debate whether the city should adopt breed-specific regulations aimed at pit bulls.

http://wcfcourier.com/news/local/three-pit-bulls-attack-man-walking-dog-at-george-wyth/article_32f7a4e4-2164-11e3-9578-001a4bcf887a.html

[Supersedeas]

101. but they bail?! -- responsible owners?

[ErikJ]

33. Pet donkey dies after pit bull attack--Sept .2, 2013

CAMP VERDE, Ariz. -- A Camp Verde family has lost its pet donkey after the animal was viciously attacked by a neighbor's pit bull.
Deputies from the Camp Verde Marshal's Office received multiple 911 calls reporting that the dog was attacking the miniature donkey, and that the dog was also being aggressive toward people.
The pit bull had somehow gotten loose from its yard, got into the donkey's pen through a hole in the fence, and attacked.
When deputies arrived, the found the dog acting aggressively and attacking the donkey, leaving them no alternative but to shoot the pit bull.
Renee and Richard Allen were the owners of the donkey, named Jack.
"There was just nothing we could do," Richard said. "We just had to stand there and watch it."
The attack lasted 15 minutes.
"My donkey was bitten from head to toe," Richard said. "He had severe puncture wounds all over. His ear was almost torn off. His muzzle and his mouth were chewed up."
"It was terrifying," Renee said. "I've never witnessed anything like it, and I hope to God I never have to see anything like that again."
The Allens consulted a veterinarian at the scene. Due to the severe injuries sustained from the dog attack, a decision was made to euthanize Jack.
The dog's owner, Steven Spearman, 26, was cited with for allowing a vicious dog to be at large. That's a class 1 misdemeanor.
A spokesman for the Marshal's Office said they had been called to Spearman's residence two times before this. One call was on July 5, 2013 for animals fighting and the other was on July 7, 2013 for a report of animal abuse. There were no charges filed in either of those instances.

http://www.azfamily.com/news/Pet-donkey-dies-after-pit-bull-attack-222106331.html

[Recursion]

35. Were any of those pit bulls?

I doubt it. The press are stupid when it comes to dogs.

[ErikJ]

36. Most recent pitbull attacks

Google News "Pitbull attack"

https://www.google.com/search?q=pitbullattack&oq=pitbullattack&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.12202j0&sourceid=chrome&espvd=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8#es_sm=93&q=pitbull+attack&safe=off&spell=1&tbm=nws

[Recursion]

37. You're still making a very basic error. You're not demonstrating actual pit bulls were involved

Come back with some evidence that actual pit bulls are attacking people.

[ErikJ]

38. And no proof the Holocaust really happened either right? nt.

[Recursion]

39. Wow. That's idiotic

Media reports are nearly always wrong about dog breeds.

Come back with evidence. This attempt was laughable.

[ErikJ]

42. No more than Gunnuts going on about technicalities of automatic rifles

after mass gun shootings as if that makes a difference. Do you really think the monsters breeding these dogs for fighting are doing DNA tests on them? In other words-if itquacks like a duck and acts like a duck, its probably a duck. Buh bye

[Recursion]

43. Facepalm

The "assault weapon" nonsense is just as stupid as the "pit bull" nonsense. Witness the fact that Lanza's gun was not an "assault weapon" by any legal definition.

But, go ahead, keep being gleefully ignorant.

[OwnedByCats]

78. Have fun in your little bubble

For every story you find about a pit bull killing someone, I can find hundreds about pit bulls being abused and killed and you geniuses wonder why a teeny tiny percentage lash out.

Also, for every story you find about pit bulls attacking, I can also find hundreds of stories where someone's pit bull saved their life or how they make great service animals.

Give it a rest.

[EX500rider]

94. hundreds of stories where someone's pit bull saved their life or how they make great service animals

Cool, I'd like to see links to both?

[OwnedByCats]

96. Google it

I don't do your homework for you. They are all out there.

[LeftyMom]

40. Illogical and offensive!

[Electric Monk]

44. I think Recursion is trying to argue a technicality. That is, if they weren't AKC registered

American Staffordshire Terriers, then they weren't really "Pit bulls" doing the mauling and killing like you've provided multiple links to.

Sort of how gun nuts like to argue that unless the weapon is fully automatic, then it can't be an "assault rifle".

[Recursion]

45. Facepalm

OK, EM, write a law that doesn't use technicalities to ban a breed.

Jesus, why does DU get stupid about pit bulls?

Anyways, no, my problem is the Rottweilers, mastiffs, and American bulldogs have all been called "pit bulls" in media reports.

Please stop trying to legislate stuff you don't know a God damned thing about. Thank you.

[Electric Monk]

47. Can you point to where I said Staffordshire Terriers should be banned? I haven't.

Some of the debate about it is downright ridiculous, though, and your tactics directly parallel the NRA's when it comes to "assault rifles" and what is and what isn't.

[Recursion]

48. Facepalm redux

NRA's when it comes to "assault rifles"

You mean "assault weapons".

It's the centerpiece of our party's gun control initiative, and you think people who disagree with you are barbarians, and you can't be bothered to learn the actual meanings of the terms involved. Good day.

[Electric Monk]

50. You're arguing semantics and techicalities. Unless you had a vested interest in not getting it

you'd get what I mean, loud and clear.


While we're at it, point to where I called you a barbarian. I haven't.

[Recursion]

51. There are no laws outside of semantics and technicalities

There's no way around this.

"Pit bull" and "assault weapon" are both porous, ill-defined concepts that lead to stupid laws.

EDIT: yes, you never said the word "barbarian", nor was your argument even remotely personal. I apologize.

[Electric Monk]

57. So, since you deny that pitbulls exist, you'd have no problem banning them? Like banning leprechauns

or unicorns?

[Recursion]

58. Sure, that's a fair point

Same with assault weapons.

As long as you don't write a law with an actual implementable technical definition of either.

(Personal note: sorry for the vitriol. I'm stuck in the tropics and about to lose my and my wife's paycheck because of GOP bullshit, so I'm on a short temper.)

[baldguy]

144. And what happens when it turns out that they're not Pit Bulls?

Media reports misidentify the breed 80% of the time.

[XemaSab]

151. You have a source for that?

n/t

[LostOne4Ever]

41. If you don't know the meaning of a word

Please don't use it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denialism
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Denialism
http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/about/

Denalism is defined by certain characteristics:

1.) Conspiracy theories-Most organizations opposed to BSL are pitbull advocates

2) Fake Experts-Colleen Lyn

3) Cherry Picking-Merritt Clifton

4) Moving Goal Post-Pit bulls are more agressive than other dogs. Wait, breeds like chows and Rotweillers have been shown to be more dangerous? Well they do more attacks than other dogs? Wait that because they are more common than those other dogs? Well....we will think of something later

5) Logical fallacies-Pitbull owners are evil!!!


http://btoellner.typepad.com/kcdogblog/2010/03/the-truth-behind-dogsbiteorg.html

Yeah...there is denialism going on, but its not by the people defending pitbulls. Its the people persecuting them.

And as always:

[Marrah_G]

49. The sheer number of them and the ease of obtaining them is the biggest problem

They are cheap (or free) and disposible (as the numbers in shelters show) so the people owning them are often ignorant about the breed or the needs of the breed. You are far less likely to spend 500-1000+ bucks on a breed you don't know about and you are far less likely to dump that dog off at a shelter. Irresponsible breeding and giving them away to just anyone does so much damage to these poor animals.

I really wish we would regulating breeding on all pets.

[Wait Wut]

105. This is fantastic!

Stealing/sharing...Thank you!

Former mom to four pitties. 2 lost to old age, one to a semi, one to an ex that had kids that my baby loved too much to separate from (going on 4 years, I get visitation ). 3 of them were terrified of cats. The last one thought he was a cat.

Not one bite from any of them.

[AtomicKitten]

53. for the gross generalization makers ...

Last edited Mon Sep 30, 2013, 10:57 AM - Edit history (1)

Some pit bulls are vicious. So are some poodles and chihuahuas and hundreds of other breeds and mixes.

Other pit bulls are sweet and well behaved, but you don't hear about those in the news because that story doesn't comport to "if it bleeds, it leads."



The common denominator is the owners and how they train and treat their pitties. As the owner of 1 in particular, your gross generalization is offensive.

[ErikJ]

59. Well then dont be offended when I pick up my dog

and cross the street when I see you with yours apporoaching.
20 years of dog walking and dog park attendance and witnessing several attacks has made me take extreme caution around anything resemlbing the pit bull or excuse me, "pit bull-like breeds", (large head with massive jaw, short fur, muscular physique, hyper behavior etc etc)

[BainsBane]

62. Actually they do lie

Most of those cases are not even pit bulls. Authorities commonly misidentify dogs who attack as pit bulls.

[ErikJ]

63. There's no such thing as pure pit bull

Pit bull breeders are breeding not for DNA purity but for fighting quality. Phenotypic traits are large head with massive jaw, Very short fur with flexible loose skin, muscular physique, endurance for long fights etc etc.

[Scootaloo]

72. So what the hell are the breed bans banning, then?

Are they going to follow the Meese Guidelines of "I know it when I see it"?

[wercal]

76. I used to work at a dog shelter

One area was designated for dogs on 'administrative hold'. IOW the dog had bitten somebody or killed another dog, and it was being held while a judge determined whether or not to destroy the dog.

It was 90 percent pit bull.

Must be a conspiracy of people making up dog attack stories, huh?

Cue the 'you cant id a pit bull' refrain.

[Soundman]

79. Didn't you know?

Those dogs have been misidentified. Can't tell the difference between a pit bull and a dobermam without a DNA test.

[OwnedByCats]

81. I work with dogs.

I'll give you an example of how this kind of thing can happen.

A Labrador and a Boxer had a litter of puppies. One in particular looked like a pit bull, but he wasn't, obviously. He was mistaken for a pit bull even by people who were experts in this area. The other puppies looked different from their brother. If he is ever involved in the biting or attacking of a person, he would be called a "pit bull" in a heartbeat.

With so many irresponsible people around, we end up with a lot of mixes. There is no telling what exactly is in their lineage without doing a DNA, and even that at times can be muddled with uncertainty because the test showed the dog was half Labrador, a quarter was Boxer and the other quarter was inconclusive.

[wercal]

85. None of these strange examples matter

The pit bulls at the animal shelter all look unmistakably like a prototypical Pit Bull....which is not at all surprising because they are deliberately bred as Pit Bulls and sold as Pit Bulls....and specifically purchased by their owners because they are in fact Pit Bulls.

I'm quite confident that the stable full of Pit Bulls on 'bite hold' are in fact Pit Bulls, no matter if you know a guy whose nephew's step brother's mailman once mistook a dog that was 51% boxer to be a Pit Bull.

[OwnedByCats]

91. Strange examples? Far from strange. Happens all the time.

I said I worked with dogs, it wasn't a friend of a friend's fucking mailman I'm speaking of. I gave you ONE example. I got a lot more. But that's right, I forgot. Mine is only anecdotal, yours is the only experience that counts. I forgot where the fuck I was for a second. My bad.

Just because a dog is "bred" and/or "sold" as "pit bulls" - which by the way isn't even a breed, it's a generic term, doesn't make them an English Staffordshire Terrier, American Pit Bull Terrier or a Staffordshire Bull Terrier. It could mean they are, but they also could be mixed with God knows what and unless you know the history of these dogs, you don't know. You can be as confident as you like they are all "pit bulls", doesn't make it fact. But seeing as how the "pit bull" or anything that remotely looks like one, is the new cool dog to abuse, train to be vicious, keep tied up outside and never socialize - you will see more of them in your little prison.

[wercal]

98. Interesting

"...your little prison..."

Are you upset at me...because some people have the audacity to report when a vicious pit bull bites them or kills their smaller dog?

Are you lashing out at me, because it pisses you off that these dogs are euthanized?

Hey, I just walked dogs at the shelter. I don't have anything to do with 'my little prison'...in fact we weren't even allowed to interact with those dogs.

Do you really, really, reaaaallllly want to know why these dogs are in 'my little prison'?

PEOPLE!

People who think Pit Bulls are just so warm and fuzzy and wouldn't hurt anybody...at least not their pit bull...because they work with dogs and are just positive that their pit is more docile than a poodle.

Then the pit kills the neighbor's dog.

Guess what? The pit bull lover is responsible for bringing it into the community, and exposing it to a situation where it can bite or kill, and responsible for getting the dog put in 'my little prison', and DIRECTLY responsible for the dog's getting destroyed.

You know who is not responsible? The people who turn in these vicious dogs.

Did you get that? At our shelter, they averaged 17 dogs intake every day, and 9 dogs adopted out every day. The annual deficit is staggering...these would be the dogs that were euthanized. The vast majority of the euthanized dogs - pit bulls. And this continuous slaughter rests squarely on the pit bull lovers. Congrats.

''your little prison"...good grief.

[OwnedByCats]

116. PEOPLE

are the problem, or haven't you figured that out yet? And by the way, do you believe everything you read on the internet, or just the ones that support your agenda? So what difference does it make if we are the cause of the slaughter, as you ignorantly suggest, or you are??? Your way ends with them ALL slaughtered. Not just the troubled ones, but the ones who never gave cause to be given that disgusting injection, only just because of it's breed. You don't see how disgusting that is? If I said let's exterminate all Muslims because some are crazy terrorists, you'd think I was a horrible person because you and I both know that not all Muslims are like that and as a matter of fact, most are not. You don't exterminate a whole category of living things because a small amount are a problem. If a pit bull is aggressive and is a danger, of course they should be euthanized. It's kinder for everyone, including that dog. But I can't get behind punishing an entire breed, most of whom never hurt anyone. Sorry.

I'm not just one of these people who says "my pit bull would never hurt a fly". That would be about ONE dog. A person who works in a capacity where they spend great amounts of time with a large number of them, whether that be in rescue, training, kennel, doggy day care, salons, vet offices - get a broader view than the person who owns just one. That's not to say owners don't feel trust in their dogs when that said dog has never given them any reason to be distrusted, those count as well. However, I think it might be time to ask those who owned a pit bull it's whole life and died never hurting anyone to get a better idea right? After all, if the dog is still alive .. it's only a matter of time before that dog looses it, right? Hey, some husbands kill their wives so I guess I should assume mine will kill me, right? But notice in my examples above I did not list KILL SHELTERS. Why do you think these animals end up in these shelters? Because they were a cherished pet who was trained and made part of the family? No, because some asshole was irresponsible and you're seeing dogs in bad situations and you think that gives you license to judge ALL pit bulls? Whatever.

People like me don't breed pit bulls, we don't train them to be vicious, tie them outside and never socialize them, we aren't the ones starving them to death, beating them, making them fight to the death and not taking responsibility for them, and we agree an aggressive pit should be put down - yet it's US WHO ARE THE CAUSE of people like you who think they can make such a lovely utopia if only all the pit bulls were put down?? Stop being so lazy and address the core of the problem, but hey - it's easier to malign a whole breed isn't it because some can pass laws to eradicate them all. Guess what? You go ahead and slaughter all pit bulls. You know what will happen? Dobermans, rottweilers, mastiffs ... whatever the next dog is considered scary looking enough for these psychopaths to start the problem all over again. That's what happened in Britain. Got rid of all the pit bulls in the fashion you're suggesting, then all I heard about was dobies and rotties killing kids because the thugs turned to other breeds. It's not their breeds either, it's their OWNERS. Cull pit bulls and you'll start seeing the new cool dog for thugs pouring into your shelter as being the new "threat to society" because you didn't address the actual problem and that makes you also PART OF THE PROBLEM. Fantastic!

You seem bothered that I call it a prison, why is that? I said prison because ... isn't that what it is? They are living in confined quarters and not allowed to be released. They are there until it is decided what is to be done with those dogs. Why do you guys even wait? Why not euthanize them as soon as they are said to have bit someone? You know the answer to that one and so do I, so no need to explain.

[wercal]

84. Yep. I'm waiting for somebody to spout off about that.

The whole DNA thing pisses me off, really

When I was stationed at FT Riley, there was an underground dog culture...oddly there was great overlap in this dog culture group and the Amway salesman group.

Anyway, they would brag about defying the police (most of us lived off post) and challenging them to identify the breed of their dog. "I told the cop he couldn't tell for certain what breed my dog is....I told the cop it doesn't have enough pit bull in him", etc. Just slapping themselves on the back and jacking off to tall tales about how the cops couldn't enforce breed specific laws.

Then a 6 y/o boy was killed at the bus stop by a Rottweiler.

The dog was owned by one of the Patriarch/Matriarch couples of the dog culture in the area.

She went to prison for 5 years. He lost his job as manager of recreational DCA activities and starting working the morning shift at McDonalds.

Oh...and the kid's still dead.

Anyway, I'm sure somebody on here will tell me that the dog was misidentified, and it was probably a poodle.

[Marrah_G]

80. But could that not be the result of the sheer numbers of pit bulls

AND the fact that people can get a pit bull for free or almost free just about anywhere, resulting in people owning them that are often not equipped to handle the dogs.

You don't have tons of the other breeds known to kill because frankly, those dogs are MUCH more expensive, not disposable and the owners generally see them as an investment in time and money from the start.

I truly think the root cause is the breeding.

[wercal]

82. Not really

That theory presumes that 90% of the dogs in the county are Pit Bulls.

Its the exact reverse.

The Pit Bulls are vastly over-represented in the administrative hold section, when compared to the county dog population.

[XemaSab]

92. I got one dog for free and two dogs from the pound

Two of them are mixed breeds and one's actually a rare breed (and probably purebred), but ain't a one of them a pit bull.

And why do people need to be "equipped" to handle pit bulls?

Why is owning a pit bull any different than owning another dog?

[Marrah_G]

100. there are differences in breeds and behavior

Last edited Mon Sep 30, 2013, 05:03 PM - Edit history (1)

Ignorance of those differences can lead to problems. Ignorance of them in a large powerful dog can turn ugly fast. My own dog is a good example. I have a husky, 8 months. I knew when I adopted him they they can be headstrong, escape artists,and don't do well alone. I also knew he would need a lot of training, everyday, to ensure he will obey because he could hurt someone without a lot of effort. Behaviors people often ignore in a small dog, can't be ignored in my breed. Dominance is never cute, never tolerated. If it is, bad things can happen. He also needs to run...a lot.


I have nothing against Pits. I happen to really like them. I just think, like with many breeds, people obtain them without doing any research. Personally, I would like to see all breeding regulated and all ownership needing to take a class before the dog comes home with them. Maybe that would help cut down on the amount of pets in shelters. There are alot of VERY badly behaved little dogs out there, but when they get aggressive, dominant or insecure, they generally can't kill someone.

http://dogtime.com/dog-breeds/american-pit-bull-terrier

Highlights

American Pit Bull Terriers are not a good choice for people who can give them little or no attention.

They must be trained and socialized when young to overcome the breed's tendencies toward stubbornness and bossiness, which combined with his strength can make him hard to handle if he hasn't learned you are in charge.

Your American Pit Bull Terrier must be kept on leash in public to prevent aggression toward other dogs. It's not a good idea to let these dogs run loose in dog parks. While they might not start a fight, they'll never back down from one, and they fight to the finish. American

Pit Bulls who aren't properly socialized as puppies can become aggressive toward other dogs.

Breed-specific legislation almost always includes this breed. Be aware of rules in your area as well as neighboring regions if you travel with your dog.

American Pit Bull Terriers have a great need to chew, and powerful jaws make quick work of cheap or flimsy toys. Give yours only tough, durable toys that can't be chewed up and swallowed.

American Pit Bull Terriers are best suited to owners who can offer firm, fair training, and gentle consistent discipline.

[OwnedByCats]

140. It's not just pit bulls

There are other breeds too that I wouldn't suggest for a person with little experience with dogs.

[Nine]

90. pit bulls, beagles, poodles... who can tell the difference?

At least that's the refrain from pit bull defenders. When they say things like, "All the pit bulls I've known have been sweeties who could only hurt someone by licking them to death," ..well, that's valid because pit bull lovers can ID pit bulls. But the "lamestream" media are all in on a giant conspiracy to make pit bulls look bad. And of course the only way the media has of ID'ing dogs is by their own guesswork of what a dog looks like; they never look at police reports, animal control records, statements from the owners of these dogs... it's all based on Johnny Reporter going to look at the dog in person, right?

Denial is the key word when it comes to pitbull defenders, and they don't mind being completely inconsistent from one moment to the next. They know pit bulls are safe because they've met so many sweet ones. If someone else has a bad experience with them, that's anecdotal experience and anyway that was probably some other kind of dog. Pits can be trusted because supposedly they were bred only to attack other dogs and the trait of attacking other humans was bred out of them in the ring. But if they attack another dog, it has nothing to do with their breeding, it's because of how that individual dog was raised.

Got it? Pits are easy to ID when they seem gentle, impossible to ID when they attack. If they attack, it's always because of nurture, never nature (breeding). But when we want to say good things about them (or bad things about another breed), we're happy to suddenly start talking about dogs in terms of breeding.

You just can't argue with these people because they have no problem being completely illogical.

[flvegan]

130. "Used to" and what shelter?

[liberal_at_heart]

86. trashing thread.

[AngryAmish]

87. One of the great problems is many pit bull owners are complete idiots

Yesterday I was at a Farmer's Market with my two kids, 2 and 5. This idiot woman had about a 75 lb. pit bull/ molosser type dog on one of those retractable leashes but the dog was still pulling her around. She had no control of it. Yet she is walking through a large group of people with kids everywhere. So as me and the kids are eating at a picnic table, her dog pulls her over and starts sniffing at my kids and their food. She took offense when I told her to take her dog away.

That dog could be the sweetest thing in the world. But she had no control and if the dog gets scared I don't want my kids to get bit in the face by any dog, let alone one with a jaw like that.

[LWolf]

89. People are denying pitbulls???

Sigh. It's terrible when the ignorant deny what's right in front of their face. Short-haired dogs with big heads are pitbulls, and they are vicious. Everybody knows that. And if it's on the internet, it's got to be a fact!!!

[XemaSab]

93. The dog's ears are cropped and it's named "Magnum"

That tells me to stay the fuck away from that dog *and* his owners.

[OwnedByCats]

141. Do you judge people in this manner

based solely on appearance? That is some seriously closed minded shit right there.

You label this dog aggressive because of it's name and ears? You can't be serious, surely?

So are all Dobermans mean because their ears are cropped?

Jesus, talk about illogical.

[XemaSab]

150. I'm judging the owner more than the dog

The owner clearly wants to project the impression of a vicious dog.

And if bad owners raise bad pits, I'll steer clear of the dog, too.

[OwnedByCats]

159. Of course

This is my entire point. Bad dogs are products of bad owners (or a previous owner) most of the time. If a dog is showing aggression, you should exercise extreme caution. I'm not saying you should trust every single dog you encounter on the street. That wouldn't be smart. My problem here is people being under the assumption that all pit bulls in general are nasty dogs from birth and they should all be destroyed. This is not the answer. It's a problem that needs to be addressed, but BSL is not the way.

[Vashta Nerada]

97. Post #1 in this thread sums up how I feel about the OP.

[pitbullgirl1965]

108. What's your problem?

You didn't post this to have a friendly debate and maybe listen with an open mind. You're deliberately being a shit stirrer. "Facts" and statics can be slanted and framed depending on what you're going aiming for

Also you ever heard of Confirmation Bias?http://www.psychologyandsociety.com/confirmationbias.html
You have to make a conscious effort to avoid it, and watch for "dog whistle" words.

I've posted information from Veterinary Societies, I myself am a Vet. Tech with the Veterinary College of Medicine @Cornell University for 10 years, but foolish me! I thought maybe people would give more weight to the experts and someone who works with animals, then some random study including by the CDC, only to be blow off, cause you know, we couldn't possibly know what the f**k we're talking about compared to medical doctors (btw, it's harder to get into Vet college, and Vets deal with far more then one species, which is a little bit harder then just humans.

My dog Major is a good boy. My 89 year old non dog loving grandma even liked him. He hasn't been around children so when my friends kids come over, in his crate or backyard he goes.
Also children should never, ever, ever be left alone with any dog.

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/Working+with+patients+-+technicians/Study-Chihuahuas-bite-vets-most-Lhaso-Apsos-inflic/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/613820

[XemaSab]

117. Your pit bull is so sweet and loving that you have to crate him when children come over?

Nice.

[pitbullgirl1965]

119. Yeah, he's not used to children and I'm not going to take a chance

Most of the time he lays around like a rug.

[uppityperson]

123. If my "none of my ancestors were pit bulls" wasn't used to kids, I'd be safe and crate her also.

Damn that girl for being a responsible dog owner and all!

Also children should never, ever, ever be left alone with any dog.

[flvegan]

131. Want to talk about your dangerous dogs, Xema?

[XemaSab]

134. I had a 3-yo over last month

Two of the dogs interacted with the kid and they were fine.

The third dog is not trustworthy around strangers and she was crated.

Because I am realistic about my dogs, I crated the dog I don't trust.

Therefore, I thought it was reasonable to assume that she didn't trust her pit bull.

[XemaSab]

152. Also, how many dogs do you think a responsible person could/should have at one time?

[RebelOne]

110. I have had two pit bulls and two Rottweilers

that were all big babies. I now have a Chihuahua that is a mean little bitch. She will attack any stranger who comes into my house.

[Marrah_G]

146. From what I've read on the breed that pretty normal

[gejohnston]

138. a propaganda site

with lots of appeal to emotion. Were they pits? Do pits attack more than other dogs or simply media hype? In the corporate media, a collie turns into a pitbull just as easily as a shotgun turns into an AR, and for the same reason.

[XemaSab]

153. Effort grows to put down pit bulls who attacked boy

Two pit bulls are in quarantine because they mauled a little boy this summer. Now there is a growing effort to get those dogs put down.

The Antioch Animal Control officer's report was just released and it describes the bloody stairwell where 10-year-old Hunter Kilbourn was attacked by his neighbor's two pit bulls on Aug. 11. His face was mauled and part of his ear chewed off.

ABC7 News learned the dog owners' son was also bitten on the arm while trying to stop the attack.

The report says both dogs had expired rabies vaccinations and the animal control investigator has now deemed them to be "vicious" and is recommending they be euthanized. But the owners, Rodrick and Courtney De La Cruz, told the city they would do anything they needed to do to fight for their dogs. They would not answer our attempt to contact them.

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/east_bay&id=9256627

I'm sure these dogs are just misunderstood nanny dogs who wouldn't hurt a fly.

[OwnedByCats]

162. You know in one earlier post you made sense

when you said you're judging the owner more than the dog - then you screw that up with this one.

Bravo