The number of expletives I possess for anyone wanting me to remain uninsured for another year...

[Gravitycollapse]

Is expansive enough to make even the most seasoned sailor shed a tear for decency.

22,000 people die each and every year because they don't have health insurance. Consider that number for a moment. That's twice as many deaths as firearm related homicides.

You won't just have blood on your hands. You'll be swimming in a pool of it. And I will be there each step of the way reminding you of this fact.

If you're okay with negotiating into necessity the deaths of tens of thousands of Americans because it might be politically advantageous, although it clearly would not be, you're an asshole. Your morals are lowly and you are an embarrassment to both the Democratic party and the United States.

So get the hell out of my face with this negotiation BS.

[hlthe2b]

1. In my fantasies...

I'd like Walter White to take them on.....








In my fantasies, Agent Mike---in my fantasies.

[Old Navy]

2. Hell, even Mike Ermatraut would be a perfect choice..

Stickin' with the Breaking Bad theme..

[hlthe2b]

3. OHhhh, I loved Mike... After Jesse, my favorite on that show! n/t

[Old Navy]

4. Jonathan Banks fit into his character very well.

Did you see the Breaking Bad Conan show? He STILL was in character. Hysterical!

If you haven't seen that one, here:

http://teamcoco.com/video/full-episode-mon-9-23-the-cast-of-breaking-bad-and-musical-guests-los-cuates-de-sinaloa

[hlthe2b]

5. Ohh, thanks! I had NOT seen that, but wil now!

[Freddie]

6. I'm with you

My brother is a cancer survivor. Now he can sleep at night knowing he can get insurance if his wife lost her work-based coverage (he's self employed) and they won't lose everything they worked their whole lives for if he got sick again. I despise anyone who opposes this law with a white-hot passion right now.
My husband and I just watched "Lincoln" (fabulous movie) and both said the same thing--"was that really the Republican Party?"

[Neoma]

55. The Republican Party started out with suffragettes and abolitionists.

People don't realize that we all switched parties in a sense. It used to be that each party had both liberals and conservatives. Then it kind of became separate. Conservatives on one side, liberals on the other. It changed the political landscape massively.

[lostincalifornia]

7. The majority of the populous will be helped by the ACA. However there is a demographic that it may

not help. For those who are older, usually > 50, and slightly above the income limits to qualify for the subsidies. In those cases there will be an exception which does NOT force the mandate:

"If the lowest cost bronze is greater than 8% of a person's income, the consumer is eligible for an exception certificate from the individual mandate or may purchase minimum coverage plan."

Hopefully, as more and more people become part of it, they will be able to modify it so those folks are covered also

[Laelth]

58. Welcome to DU.

A $15/hr. minimum wage would solve this problem for most of that group, I think.

-Laelth

[questionseverything]

71. http://kff.org/interactive/subsidy-calculator/

so at 15/hr full time is about 28,800/yr

calculator says their part of premium is 2324/yr
out of pocket limit 6350/yr...so medical covered expenses 8674/yr(30%)

then there is income tax 1900/yr

ss 1785/yr

illinois state tax 1340/yr

adds up to 13,699

so 28,800 minus 13,699=15,101 divided by 12 months is 1250/month

i am not saying my calculations are perfect but they are very close and i am not saying people do not survive on way less because i know they do but calling it affordable at 30% of income is deceptive ......compare it to housing which used to be our biggest expense (public housing charges 30% of income for a roof over head)

for every1 the aca helps i am glad but for some of us that already have mortgages and car payments this 26 to 30 % thing is just not doable

[Laelth]

72. I do not deny that for many "affordable" is a misnomer. n/t

-Laelth

[questionseverything]

73. turns out the out of pocket cap does not exsist

sigh

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/13/us/a-limit-on-consumer-costs-is-delayed-in-health-care-law.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&

so even the numbers i used are too low

[lostincalifornia]

76. No problem with your calculations. However let me present a different perspective. In California

Which looks close enough to your calculator, if your AGI is 28.8K, and you are around 30 years old, for the bronze plan the premiums range from 4 to 30 dollars per month subsidized with a 5k deductible.

For a silver plan same conditions it would be between 186 - 249 dollars per month subsidized with a 5K deductible.

Before the ACA, assuming perfect health, and 2000 dollar deductible, a 60 year old person would have to pay between 700 to 1000 dollars per month.

With the ACA, pre-existing conditions do not count against you.

Different age groups will have different rates, but I selected the age which is usually hit hardest with premiums

The example you are using of max out of pocket being 6350 per year is high for that demographic, however, without the ACA there would not be a maximum out of pocket, in fact if a catastrophic event occurred, any assets would be vulnerable, and bankruptcy could be a real concern.

My point being that at the time and environment when the ACA happened, the climate would most likely not allowed much better. There were enough Democrats in Congress who would not sign on to a public option, so is the ACA better than nothing?

I suspect having insurance and a maximum out of pocket of 6200 is better than having no insurance, and potential hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical bills, but that is a choice people are going to have to determine.

It should be recalled that when Hillary tried to present her healthcare plan which was very good, it didn't go anywhere

The current ACA must be improved, just like Medicare was when it became law

[questionseverything]

77. no out of pocket limit until 2015

is something i learned just a little bit ago

i am not saying parts of the aca are not good but the 26-30% of income is not reasonable....i guess ur household has that much disposable income for healthcare and if you do i am happy for u

the bill is an wealth transfer from we the people to a few ins corps...as someone that pays taxes i recognize that the subsidies are not "free"

and this,My point being that at the time and environment when the ACA happened, the climate would most likely not allowed much better. There were enough Democrats in Congress who would not sign on to a public option, so is the ACA better than nothing? ......

we had a vast majority in the house,more than 50 in senate..what we lacked was the will to use the nuclear option,,reconciliation if i remember the term correctly

[Supersedeas]

74. a reasoned response and welcome to DU

[burnsei sensei]

8. There is no hell hot enough for those who favor

1. health care for profit and
2. confound health insurance with the provision of care.
My husband was one of those 22,000 more than 10 years ago. I have not forgotten the intensity of his suffering and the injustice of his death.

[Dragonfli]

19. The same with the death of my wife....

People that confuse insurance with care have not had to face what we did, it sounds good until you desperately need it to receive actual care.

I will never forget her pain. Or the part Blue cross played in making her final years torturous in other ways.

That there are those that would deny even insurance (the only way left to try to get care now that it is so permanently codified) are on a level of evil I find hard to imagine residing in a human soul.

[frazzled]

31. What do you mean by the provision of care?

Medicare is just health insurance, too--albeit government-sponsored insurance (most everyone on Medicare has to carry a private policy as well, however, to cover the parts that Medicare doesn't). But the "care" is provided by the private health industry, the same private health industry that provides the care or those with commercial insurance.

Are you talking about state-run health care? (Where doctors and health workers work for the government?). Because that is very rare, and it's not going to happen here in our lifetimes.

I honestly don't know what people are talking about when they say this. Most of us who have private insurance have had access to excellent care. We want to make sure that people who don't get insurance through their employers will also get policies that cover this kind of care. The problem in the past has been either that they can't get the insurance at all, or they can only get crappy insurance that doesn't cover anything. The ACA is going to change all that in major, major ways for this segment of Americans.

[burnsei sensei]

62. Health insurance is NOT health care.

Accounting is not compassion.
Money heals nothing.
Period.
Know the difference.
And make damn sure that those counting the money understand that their position should be subordinate to that of doctors and nurses, not above.

[frazzled]

65. Of course it's not, but you haven't answered the question at all

What is it that you are proposing? It's not clear at all.

I want your policy details about what you would like to see put into place. Right now, you've got a meaningless slogan. Please provide details of the system and how it would work.

[burnsei sensei]

80. My "policy details" can be summed up in a single phrase:

single-payer.

[frazzled]

82. Single-payer refers to insurance, not care

It's simply a single insurance pool (as opposed to the multiple insurer system we have for everyone under 65 in this country).

Medicare is a single-payer system: the government runs the insurance program, which you pay into through lifetime taxes, and also premiums. It does not, however, provide any health care. Patients seek their own care through private providers (the same providers that people with employer or private market insurance see).

I think the problem is, you don't understand the terms or systems. Medicare for all, if it works like the current Medicare, would not provide health care. It would just be a single, giant, government-run insurance program. No health care ... but ACCESS to health care.

Of course, the ACA is also giving people access to health care. I would have preferred a single-payer insurance system, too. But considering we've never had anything at all, the ACA is a huge giant leap forward that will benefit millions.

[burnsei sensei]

83. True, but it creates a more realistic relationship between care & accounting.

If you think that people who spend their time filling out and amending forms and counting money provide health care, you're wrong.
There is a big difference between the market for health care and the imperative for its delivery.
It is not a private commodity.
It is a public good, and as such, should not be viewed as "a product."
The problem with insurance, is that it sets up a distortion in perception that makes paying equivalent with possessing something.
Outcomes in healthcare are not set in stone, and it's true that you can pay out the nose and GET NOTHING.

So, do you still believe that health insurance is health care?

[Trekologer]

66. Health insurance is access to heath care

Thanks to the Affordable Care Act, individuals who have health insurance now have preventative care covered with no copay. Preventative care means that individuals with treatable diseases can be diagnoses and cared for before it makes them seriously (and costly) sick. For someone without insurance, a physical by the primary care physician would cost them hundreds of dollars.

[former9thward]

9. What is your position on business getting a waiver not to insure their employees for another year?

[Gravitycollapse]

10. Any business that chooses to do so should be run out of town.

[former9thward]

11. That would be all of them.

Business was given waiver by President Obama for an additional year not to insure their employees.

[Gravitycollapse]

16. There is a delay in the mandate. But they can no longer deny for preexisting conditions.

In essence, unless the employers choose to drop offered plans, they must insure anyone who qualifies for coverage offered.

[former9thward]

22. For the most part employers never did deny preexisting conditions.

That was a problem with individuals trying to get insurance. No employer in my working life ever asked me about any preexisting conditions.

[Gravitycollapse]

24. False. Almost every employer insurance plan has a preexisting condition denial clause.

And I have personally been subjected to such denials by one of the largest corporations in the US.

[former9thward]

28. I guess I must have just randomly worked for the tiny percentage of those who did not.

Since "Almost every employer" has one.

After most states had by the early 1990s implemented some limits on pre-existing condition exclusions by small group (2 to 50 employees) health insurance plans, the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (Kassebaum-Kennedy Act) of 1996 (HIPAA) extended some minimal limits on pre-existing condition exclusions for all group health insurance plans—including the self-insured large group health insurance plans that cover half of those with employer-provided health insurance but are exempt from state insurance regulation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-existing_condition

[JDPriestly]

29. People did not understand that even though you were insured on your employer's plan,

you weren't fully insured for conditions that you had before you enrolled in that specific plan -- in other words you were insured for everything but your preexisting conditions.

People still don't realize that in many cases.

Insurance companies mostly get tough on that issue if the cost of treating a preexisting condition is very high.

[handmade34]

12. health care

should not be tied to employment...

[former9thward]

20. Agreed but that is exactly what the ACA did.

[Snake Plissken]

13. Yeah ... but ... but ... but ... what about ...

Benghazi

[ZRT2209]

14. keep in mind that trolls, possibly being paid, are in attack mode on all left-leaning websites

re Obamacare

[Gravitycollapse]

52. I've noticed.

[quadrature]

15. enrollment period is thru March ...

no reason to do anything before then
unless you get sick.

[Dragonfli]

17. I agree with you - and I believe it is a plan that takes us 180 degrees away from true health care.

This law moves us in a direction that continues to put our well being in the hands of corporations that are really health care denial organizations that destroy lives for profit.

The thing is, in a country that worships money at the expense of the well being of its citizens, since the decision was made for us to commit even more permanently down the "Sicko" path, there is no other way to try to get health care - period!.

With no options but to go into debt trying to pay the vultures that are the profit earning gatekeepers to our doctors, everyone should at least have the opportunity to try to get some health care that way, no matter the bankruptcies, health is more important than money, there is no contest there. Blue cross cost my wife and I our life savings and all of our credit, but having paid the vultures she did receive the chance to fight for her life, I would give it all away again in a nanosecond to provide her that opportunity again had she survived.

They won, corporations will profit from their Heritage scheme and for some unfathomable reason, these assholes still want to make things worse by trying to take away even insurance, they and their like minded Democrats decreed that there will be no actual health care plan and that battle is over, only insurance remains and that is the reality - now they have the nerve to try to deny even that.

It is crazy, they should at least allow us to be owned by the insurance companies, but that victory does not satisfy them, they would have as many people as possible be barred from any chance at all of seeking health, that is mind boggling evil and I hope our party does not give in to them as has been their habit. I hope they gain that spine that found earlier could have gotten us what most citizens of the world have - a real health care system.

If they don't find that spine now millions will remain without even insurance and without it no hope or option whatsoever to be healthy.

It is time to actually put up a fight. They can't just let them win yet again.

[JDPriestly]

30. I'm glad that we founded public schools before our government was totally bought by

the corporations.

[historylovr]

56. Well said.

[grilled onions]

18. Bastards All

I read and share many of the very problems that Obamacare could solve...pre existing conditions, doughnut holes, insured young adults in college living at home, the out of work, those who face extremely high premiums-so high that they simply cannot afford to have insurance, coverage limit because of disease, chronic conditions that are very costly, multiple surgeries. Why are those who need health coverage the most the very ones that they would like to never be insured? They turn their backs on the seniors who have earned their stripes,the vets who continue to suffer through any number of injuries,chemicals,poisons they encountered on duty, those who have had to deal with chronic issues like MS,arthritis,cancer of all kinds which require tests,surgeries and so many of them cannot work and often refused insurance.
How dare they!

[hfojvt]

21. not ONE single person dies because they don't have health insurance

Not even ONE.

People die because they do not get health CARE.

And some of those people might have died even with health care and some others might die because of health care. How many people die every year as a result of medical mistakes? I have seen huge numbers cited, but it seems they need to be taken with a grain of salt http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=194039

You may think it is just semantics, but to state it the way you did just assumes that health insurance is the only way for people to get health care. When in fact, it is NOT. And I would also claim that health insurance is not even the BEST way for people to get health care, much less the only way.

But beyond that, I am curious, just how is Obamacare gonna help you get health insurance?

[Gravitycollapse]

23. Bull-motherfucking-shit. Denial of payment is denial of service when the service is hyperexpensive.

So, yes, the inability to possess health insurance causes thousands of deaths each year.

How will the ACA help me get insurance? I have a preexisting condition. That's how. Go spread your propaganda somewhere else.

[hfojvt]

38. next time eloquence escapes you

you might try do, do, do, and da, da, da.

Maybe you have never considered that instead of spending billions of dollars giving money to insurance companies so we can pay for hyperexpensive services, that there is some way to make said services less hyperexpensive.

And that it would make more sense to take steps to reduce costs rather than taking steps to subsidize hyperexpensive costs.

My opinion is just my opinion, perhaps influenced by the propaganda that we all swim in, but certainly not direct propaganda. If you want to discuss things perhaps you can have some influence on my opinion, but if you just want to curse at me and tell me to shut up, then as far as I am concerned you can take a flying fu$% at a rolling donut. If you want to fight so badly, then join the army. I understand they will even provide some health care too.

[Gravitycollapse]

40. I'm not here to influence your opinion. I'm here to counter your message.

Oh, I'm sorry, did you actually want me to do all of the intellectual work for you? Ooooh, not gonna happen.

[hfojvt]

47. just because my name is Koch

does NOT mean I have a message.

Well, except for the ones I mention here http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3654765

and I do considerable work for issues I care about
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/169

[Gravitycollapse]

49. Just as I stated, you think you're concerned with the big picture. But you're not.

You're concerned with alleviating the insurance companies of their responsibility in the deaths of tens of thousands of Americans. And you'd rather watch people like myself remain without insurance because you're pissed off we didn't magically convert to single payer overnight.

Seriously, you're not fooling anyone. What else do you have? You want to threaten violence against me because you feel insulted?

[hfojvt]

53. I'm not here to convince you of my motives

You know all about what I am concerned about. Since you are the great Carnac or something.

You still want to talk about me. Oh why should I feel insulted. Having only been called a liar, naive, a pouting and stomping child, lazy and/or morally corrupt, etc. Why would any reasonable person be insulted by that?

Maybe you could talk about things you know something about, because you don't know all that much about me.

And you really do not need to know anything about me to tell me your own point of view.

So far, your point of view only seems to consist of negative opinions about ME. You think that Obamacare rocks. I'm not all that sure about it. Your answer to that is to insult me and tell me to shut up. The more you talk about me and berate me, the more you just convince me that you are not a very nice person. I am not at all motivated to either help you or get out of your way.

You read the part about how I look at the big picture, but missed this apparently "to argue against hate, greed, selfishness, and cruelty and in favor of love, sharing, understanding, reason, and kindness"

And that is my point in continuing these subthreads. To tell you that your hatred towards myself and others - it is counterproductive.

[Agschmid]

25. Maybe they have pre-existing condition?

And I assume you mean that anyone can get care by heading to an ER?

It's just not a great method.

[hfojvt]

37. you assumed?

Why?

What I meant is that there are other SYSTEMS that deliver health care to people without using the byzantine middleman of an evil insurance company.

I meant what I said - that people need health care. That there are other ways to fund health care than by an insurance system.

And further it seems to me that Obamacare's solution to the problem of "some people do not have health care because they don't have a job that pays for their health insurance". They solve that problem by "forcing people to buy insurance". Which does not seem like much of a solution.

[vankuria]

69. Please explain

your statement "there are other ways to fund health care than by an insurance system". And please keep in mind the Pres. has to work with oppositional members of congress to get anything passed.

[kestrel91316]

27. Obamacare is going to help ME get health insurance by subsidizing a plan

that has a low enough deductible and annual out-of-pocket that, even if I have to use it, it won't bankrupt me.

And the monthly premiums are affordable.

I suspect there are MILLIONS of Americans just like me.

Take your callous RW attitude and shove it.

[hfojvt]

35. what is so rightwing

about not worshipping at the altar of the health insurance industry?

I will freely admit that I don't see how Obamacare is all that helpful, even after listening to a doctor explain it at a recent picnic I attended.

If it is going to help you, then you could perhaps explain how without getting all hostile about it.

Perhaps simply explaining how much your subsidy is and how that money comes to you and how much the premium is. The last two lines don't really do much for your case.

The whole health system in this country seems like a mixed up shook up world.

[bhikkhu]

32. Well, we could lose the house and go bankrupt, but I'd be alive

probably with permanently reduced expectations for the kid's future, if we were able to even hang together, at least. But I'd be alive...I suppose there's always a bright side to sickness or accident while uninsured.

[hfojvt]

36. or we could have single payer

maybe if people stopped talking like health INSURANCE was what we needed instead of health CARE.

[Gravitycollapse]

39. Can't see the forest for the trees, even though I'm certain you believe just the opposite.

I would much rather have nationalized healthcare. But if you honestly believe a move towards such a system would be one step long, you're naive.

So, congratulations, you get to pout and stomp your feet because you're the "principled" one. Now get out of my way.

[hfojvt]

42. the only one I see stomping

is you. Threatening to throw a curse word tantrum if you do not get your way.

And then you pout and imperiously give orders when people don't just applaud you.

"Now get out of my way."

"can't see this"
"you believe the opposite"
"you're naive"

What was your point again? To convince me that you are an a$$hole? You can consider yourself a success, and move on to another point, if you have one. See I kinda prefer if maybe you could talk about "health care in this country" instead of spending so much time talking trash about me, and all my mental and emotional defects.

Unless you are just here to exchange insults with people who don't agree 100% with you.

[Gravitycollapse]

43. Again, I'm not here to convince you of anything.

I'm telling the lazy and morally corrupt to stay away from what myself and millions of Americans rightfully have coming.

[Gravitycollapse]

48. Oh, good. Now you're saying I deserve to be assaulted. Excellent retort.

I'm only continuing this so others can see your depravity.

[hfojvt]

50. there is nothing deserved in the laws of physics

Step on a rake, the handle flies up and hits you in the face. Not because you deserve it, but because you did something that caused it.

Put your hand on a hot stove and your hand gets burned. Not because you deserve to get burned, but because you did something that caused it.

In a similar way, go around insulting people, and it is fairly predictable that some will react badly.

I joined this thread to talk about the health care system in this country. You are determined to talk about me, and my perceived depravity. And now you think you have proved something that I have shown myself to be a big meanie. A depraved meanie. One who got sick of your attitude and insults.

[Gravitycollapse]

51. You joined this thread to spread lies and propaganda.

And now you're trying to allude, I guess joyously, to the possibility that asserting my right to affordable healthcare might get me punched in the face.

Go piss in someone else's cornflakes. I'm not buying it.

[hfojvt]

54. I joined this thread to share my own point of view

which I still think is true.

Simply stop insulting me. That's all I am asking, Try discussing the actual topic.

Hint - the topic is not ME.

But yes, I also am saying that your responses to me have me more ready to pop you one, then I am ready to fight for health care or even health insurance for you.

I still say you drew first blood.

[bhikkhu]

41. Single payer would be fine, but the law that has been put in place is fine too

nothing is rather less fine, regardless of what axe someone has to grind or what principles one stands on.

[hfojvt]

45. so refuting myths and propaganda is now "grinding an axe"?

It remains true that nobody really needs health insurance any more than they need a thneed.

Post some nonsense about how people die because of a lack of health insurance, and I will disagree.

How am I grinding an axe any more than the person who insists on saying things his/her way? I simply make a case for my own POV. The only axes I see are the ones that are being hurled at me in anger.

I also think that the current law is less than fine in many ways. For one thing, I thought that in 2008 I was voting AGAINST an insurance mandate.

That does not imply that I think we should do nothing. Only that I, loyal Democrat that I am, remain unconvinced that Obamacare is a good step.

But I am pretty sure that a few more people chiming in to tell me to fut the shuck up is bound to convince me. Unleash the confederacy of axes!

[robinlynne]

26. love your OP. right on.

[Deep13]

33. Bad enough it took until 2014 to become active. nt

[Rex]

34. Just for the title alone.

nt.

[Iggo]

44. And if you run out, I got a few more.

[Laelth]

57. Beautifully said. k&r n/t

-Laelth

[Doctor_J]

59. the real trolls have exposed themselves this weekend. Anyone who suggests that waiting

another year, for ANY reason, is acceptable, should be booted from the board. They don't belong here, or in the party, period.

[Romulox]

61. Support mandatory, for-profit insurance...or your BANNED!

[Doctor_J]

63. No, but it is all we have right now. we don't have a choice for SP or even PO.

today the choice is between ACA or nothing.

[Romulox]

64. Don't walk it back--you were just calling for my BANNING for disagreeing with you. nt

[Doctor_J]

67. If you think that the Dems accepting a 1-year hold on implementing ACA, then yes

I am tired of giving things to the Repukes. that's what another delay would be. Let me spell it out.

Agreeing to a year's delay implementing the ACA is capitulation to the teabaggers. The people in favor of this are not just disagreeing with the president - they're agreeing with Ted Cruz. That is unacceptable.

[geek tragedy]

79. Please don't take this as a personal insult, but

I agree with you.

[Romulox]

60. So the threat is give the insurers their $$$ or the puppy gets it. And people who OPPOSE

this arrangement are to blame?

[HappyMe]

68. Well said.

My sons are barely making it. Obamacare would have removed the worry of huge debt because of an illness, and/or being sick and not getting any care.

[TBF]

70. Standing with you -

no negotiating with terrorists. Folks need health care NOW.

[Gravitycollapse]

75. Thank you.

[liberal_at_heart]

78. This law needs to be worked on. The only reason I am not for this delay is because I know

the democrats that are in office right now are really not all that interested in fixing the law. They are content with the status quo. And the republicans will only use this year to try again to completely defund it. I will not apologize for seeing the need to work on the law, and if you want to yell at those of us who do want to work on it the go right ahead. You're yelling at people won't change people's minds.

[gopiscrap]

81. Good for you!