Jon Favreau: President Obama "will not—he cannot—negotiate with a roving band of anarchists"

[highplainsdem]

From Jon Favreau, former chief speechwriter for President Obama, at The Daily Beast:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/09/30/house-republican-hostage-takers-are-unfit-to-govern.html

“The president must negotiate!” Really? Because in most negotiations, both sides stand to gain something. In this negotiation, the House Republicans get to pass policies on which Mitt Romney ran and lost, while the president gets to live in a country that isn’t suffering from yet another economic calamity, a country that isn’t seen as the world’s superpower turned deadbeat nation. How wonderful for him. What a shining example of bipartisan cooperation to be celebrated by the Washington media.

What a joke.

From budgets and taxes to Syria and Iran, this president has shown that he will negotiate on almost any issue, with anyone, at any time. But he will not—he cannot—negotiate with a roving band of anarchists who say, “Build our oil pipeline or the troops don’t get paid. Give us tax cuts for the rich or seniors don’t get their Social Security checks. Let insurance companies do as they please or the economy gets it.”

That isn’t democracy. That isn’t America. Throughout history, politicians of both parties have been able to argue their agendas fiercely, even nastily, but then accept the Election Day judgment of voters without resorting to extortion that threatens the economic destruction of their own country. A small faction of Republicans who represent an even smaller fraction of Americans has now decided to reject this bipartisan legacy in favor of nihilistic madness. As citizens, we can call on our president to give in to their demands, thereby setting a precedent that will permanently and fundamentally alter the nature of our democracy for future leaders of both parties. Or we can finally call these people what McConnell once gleefully acknowledged they are: hostage takers, unrepresentative of the once-proud Republican Party and unfit to govern the greatest nation on Earth.

[KittyWampus]

1. Read the excerpt and am wondering… maybe anarchists is a good label. Am not sure

Will read the whole thing later, have to work.

But this is the 2nd time I've seen the label anarchist used to refer to crazy Republicans.

Would like some input if it is appropriate.

[frazzled]

6. Well, if anarchism is defined as ...

"belief in the abolition of government," then it pretty much fits the bill (or at least half the bill: anarchism is also defined by replacing government with "the organization of society on a voluntary, cooperative basis without recourse to force or compulsion&quot . What they are doing is attempting to abolish our democratic system of government and the decisions and laws that arise from democratically elected government.

There are right-wing anarchists and left-wing anarchists (although the distinction between them is getting less clear to me, as they coalesce into a kind of giant form of laissez-faire, isolationist, it's all about my freedom libertarianism).

[Fantastic Anarchist]

8. There are no "right-wing anarchists" ...

Anarchism is a left-wing tradition born from the libertarian socialist faction at the First International.

Sure there are those that call themselves "anarcho-capitalists," but they are ignorant of the history/philosophy of anarchism. "Anarcho-capitalists" are a contradiction in terms and philosophy.

"All anarchists are socialists, but not all socialists are necessarily anarchists." ~ Individualist anarchist Benjamin Tucker

[frazzled]

13. Times have changed since, like, 1908

Benjamin Tucker was a 19th century figure, who died in 1939. We're in the 21st century. Frankly, Tucker's brand of "individualist anarchism" would fit pretty well into the Ron Paul brand of mishegas today.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

16. Not really ...

Benjamin Tucker (who subscribed more to Mutualism/Individualist tendency of socialism) was adamantly opposed to capitalism. He was pro-private property rights, yes, but he believed in the Labor Theory of Value, and that Labor should be in possession of its own - more as free-associations of producers (along the lines of Mutualism).

Sure, people who call themselves "anarcho-capitalists" cite Tucker as their influence, but that requires a total dismissal of his vast criticisms of capitalists/capitalism.

Again, he considered himself a socialist - just, perhaps, more to the right of Bakunin/Kropotkin, but still part of the libertarian Left. Also, one has to consider that after Josiah Warren, Lysander Spooner, Benjamin Tucker's ideology of individualism/anarchism in the early part of the 19th century, became more manifest in literature, not in practice - and that the more socialist aspects of anarchism became the prevalent tendency towards the end of the century, and on towards the first part of the 20th century, then being reinvigorated from the 1960s to present.

[AAO]

18. Tradition aside, they are anarchists by definition:

an·ar·chist noun \ˈa-nər-kist, -ˌnär-\ : a person who believes that government and laws are not necessary

CloseStyle: MLA APA ChicagoFull Definition of ANARCHIST

1: a person who rebels against any authority, established order, or ruling power
2: a person who believes in, advocates, or promotes anarchism or anarchy; especially : one who uses violent means to overthrow the established order

— anarchist or an·ar·chis·tic \ˌa-nər-ˈkis-tik, -(ˌ när-\ adjective
See anarchist defined for English-language learners »

See anarchist defined for kids »
First Known Use of ANARCHIST
1678
Other Government and Politics Terms
agent provocateur, agitprop, autarky, cabal, egalitarianism, federalism, hegemony, plenipotentiary, popular sovereignty, socialism

[Fantastic Anarchist]

21. VanillaRhapsody, is that you?

You act suspicously like someone else who just kept trotting out the dictionary argument.

Anyway, look here for my response already made.

[AAO]

23. No, I am AAO and I trust the dictionaries for word definitions.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

7. I hate to see the term anarchist misused.

Republicans are certainly no anarchists.

Anarchists' central tenet (regardless of tendency) is the elimination of capitalism and the state. We see the two as intertwined, and that abolishing one without the other is futile - this differentiates us from other socialists in the Marxist tradition.

Edit for grammar.

[AAO]

19. Maybe you should look the word up in the dictionary first...

[Fantastic Anarchist]

20. Maybe dictionary definitions don't adequately explain a philosophy as complex as anarchism.

I've been through this cannard before, so instead of reinventing the wheel, I'll just copy and paste my previous argument, though some of the references therein may not refer to you, but should suffice to explain why using a dictionary is not adequate when explaining philosophies such as anarchism:

Start of copy/paste of my recent argument with someone who thought "anarcho-capitalists" are anarchists:

Let me help you out since you are having trouble understanding the history of anarchism (which if you haven't studied it, would explain why you made the post above).

First, dictionaries are useful for a cursory glance at a particular word's meaning. However, they are woefully inadequate to explain such a complex philosophy as anarchism as it was formulated and developed by the theorists, practitioners, and lay workmen. I mean if we're going to go by your dictionary standard, I'd like to ask you to provide a dissertation on Plato's Republic using only the dictionary. You'll see why dictionaries are not practical for detailed analyses.

You asked what anarchists I've read, well it's quite a few actually. Everything from Noam Chomksy to the individualist, Benjamin Tucker, to the Mutualist, Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, to the collectivist, Mikhail Bakunin, to the communist, Peter Kropotkin (among others) - so this should, for purposes of this discussion, represent most of the anarchist currents, though not all. Every anarchist who has practiced or developed the theory, has come from the libertarian socialist foundation generally, and was specifically split from the state socialist tendencies when Karl Marx expelled Mikhail Bakunin and his followers from the International Workingmen's Association (also known as the First International). The Bakuninists and other libertarians socialists went on to form their anarchist associations. (ex. collectivists, syndicalists, Mutualists, communists, etc.)

This can best be expressed by the individualist anarchist, Benjamin Tucker, when he said, "Every anarchist is a socialist, but every socialist is not necessarily an anarchist."

This was, of course, expressed by many anarchists, regardless of tendency, and finds another expression by Noam Chomsky:

"The consistent anarchist … should be a socialist, but a socialist of a particular sort. He will not only oppose alienated and specialized labor and look forward to the appropriation of capital by the whole body of workers, but he will also insist that this appropriation be direct, not exercised by some elite force acting in the name of the proletariat."

The reason for the split wasn't because of conflict with capitalist analyses, but from disagreement on how to affect revolution - the Marxists believed in an intermediate stage of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat and the use of a Vanguard Party to lead workers to socialism, while the anarchists believed that the only way to socialism was to smash the state and believed a Vanguard Party was reactionary since they believed that this would just propagate the state to instill a new class hierarchy. It turns out that Bakunin was correct since some 50 years later, the Bolsheviks subverted the October Revolution and the state never proceeded to socialism. That is the revolution was undermined and defeated by the Bolshevik Vanguard Party.

Now, instead of providing you with inadequate dictionary definitions, I will supply a few links that go more in depth about the anarchist philosophy. I believe this shall suffice as adequate sourcing in support of my argument:

Anarchism: From Theory to Practice - Daniel Guerin

The Anarchist FAQ Editorial Collective

What is Property? An Inquiry into the Principle of Right and of Government by Pierre-Joseph Proudhon (1840) (Marx actually built upon Proudhon's theories of scientific socialism)

Wiki Page: History of Anarchism

Happy reading. I trust after studying the above, you'll have a more firm grasp why the term "anarcho-capitalists" is a contradiction in terms and philosophy. Now, they can call themselves "fried chicken" for all I care, but if they are going to call themselves anarchists, then they are ignorant of the history of the philosophy they supposedly follow, and as such, they should not be taken seriously. However, if they understand that they are not anarchists, but simply libertarians who advocate for unregulated capitalism, I could at least take them seriously, regardless if I disagree with their economic formulations.

[AAO]

22. I'll take the dictionary definition, if you don't mind.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

25. Do what you want.

[AAO]

28. I will.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

29. I'm happy for you.

[AAO]

30. Thanks. Same to you!

[raging moderate]

2. Senator Angus King had an interesting point.

Last edited Wed Oct 2, 2013, 12:47 AM - Edit history (1)

Senator Angus King of Maine was on TV yesterday. He said one of his old professors pointed out recently that what the Republicans are trying to institute here has been done in our country before. It was called the Articles of Confederation, it was the very first form of government after the American Revolution, and it was replaced as quickly as possible by the government instituted by our current US Constitution.
Astute minds will, of course, recognize the relationship between the words "Confederation" and "Confederate." Evidently we have a minority in our country who find it extremely difficult to let go of the past and move forward into the future. I am so fortunate in my ancestors, who left me permission to apologize for their misdeeds, correct their errors, and change my policies as necesary in order to deal with current reality. They weren't great, but they did understand that much.

[reddread]

3. ah, anyone who played a role in Iron Man 3

needs to be excommunicated.

[kentauros]

5. Different Favreau:

Jon Favreau (former White House speechwriter)

[reddread]

31. doh.

thats what i get for trying to blame the other Favreau for something im pretty sure wasnt his fault anyway.
anarchists, you say?
spooky.

[kentauros]

32. That's okay.

I thought the same thing when I saw him listed on The Daily Show some months back, and Jon Stewart was making fun of them having the same name, too

[earthside]

4. They aren't anarchists.

They are reactionary demagoguing proto-fascists ... some of the Tea-publicans are flat-out fascists.

These extremists are not against government, no matter what they say -- they are for government that they and their cronies control.

They love government of the military; they love government of 'free trade'; they love government of mandatory Christian morals; they love government of wealth redistribution to the top; the love government by mega-transnational corporations and banks.

I'd take real anarchists any day over these reactionary revolutionaries.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

9. Thank you!

[LondonReign2]

10. Well said

[n2doc]

11. It's not "A Small faction of Republicans"

It's nearly the entire House membership. If it were "a small faction" then they would be ignored, like house progressives are on the dem side.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

14. Large or small, votes are there to raise the ceiling if Boehner allows a free vote. nt

[n2doc]

15. Of Course. all the dems would vote to raise it, and enough repubs would join in as well

But the fact is, the last few CR's have been passed with overwhelming R support. And little to no D's voting for them. The whole repub party is going along with this crap. They are happy to act like tealiban when it suits them.

[VanillaRhapsody]

12. he is just confusing libertarian with anarchists

Who share core belief in opposition to all forms of realistic government. Delusions......


In other words see Somalia....

[TBF]

17. He's confusing the terms "anarchist" and "raving lunatic" -

they are not the same.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

26. Thank you ...

And see above for yet another debate about what constitutes an anarchist (with AAO).

[Pretzel_Warrior]

24. EVERY--and I mean EVERY--Democrat including you and me should be on the trail shouting this info

On Facebook, at work, to your neighbors, to your friends....they need to hear a VOCAL half of the country that is sick of the partisan hostage taking the crazy ass fuckwits of the Republican party are engaged in.

[freshwest]

27. K & R to the Moon! This is it!