Do you oppose delaying and defunding Obamacare or not?

[CreekDog]

To get a statement of the opinion on DU, please vote the choice that is closest to your opinion on the issue at this moment.

54 votes, 1 pass | Time left: Unlimited
	I oppose delaying and defunding Obamacare.
	52 (96%)
	I support delaying and defunding Obamacare.
	2 (4%)
	1 DU member did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[HappyMe]

1. Oppose.

Delay only means we will get nothing.

[el_bryanto]

2. I think you might want to break down the supports

There are those who might feel that Obamacare is a weak bill and want to see us replace it with single payer or something similar. There are others who want to oppose it because they oppose Government Health Care (although that seems unlikely).

Bryant

[geek tragedy]

4. One cannot divide by zero.nt

[CreekDog]

5. this poll isn't about what parts of Obamacare people like and don't like

this poll is about, *on balance*, whether people support the choice in front of congress right now, to delay and defund it or not.

[el_bryanto]

7. Fair enough - but what do you anticipate the results of your poll will be?

I'll be surprised if even one person votes to delay and defund it - I'll be flabbergasted if more than 5 do.

Bryant

[CreekDog]

8. I think it's often helpful to have strong statements of general opinion here on DU

I think polls like this are useful because you get the general sense of opinion here.

This place mostly features arguments among liberals or at least Democrats who mostly agree on so much. But on many issues, most of the differences are at the margins.

[LostOne4Ever]

16. For that very reason

I think this is a bit of a waste of a poll.

Really, I doubt ANYONE here is going to vote to defund or delay the PPACA other than if 1) They are a troll or 2) Just to be a contrarian.

[CreekDog]

19. A poll with a consensus result is not a waste

[leftstreet]

21. Unless you're forcing people to vote the way you want

I support delaying the individual mandate of the ACA. The Obama administration had no problem delaying the employer mandate and the caps-on-costs.


They can fund it all they want, fine by me, just delay the mandate

So I can't vote in your push poll

[CreekDog]

31. it's not a push poll, it's the choice that decides if a gov't shutdown happens or not

why would you call that a push poll?

[krawhitham]

9. They can not even get a simple CR passed and you want them to pass Single Payer?

Where can one find a drug that would make one so delusional?

[el_bryanto]

22. I want something better than Obamacare. I don't really intend to apologize for that. nt

[CreekDog]

27. BUT, do you want to get rid of Obamacare until you get that?

[el_bryanto]

32. No I don't but I can understand how some people might want to

Sliced anyway you look at it - this bill even though it will improve matters also funnels money into the parasitical health insurance system.

Bryant

[CreekDog]

33. funneling money into the health care system also treats children with cancer

you want to hold off on that while we get the perfect system passed?

[el_bryanto]

35. Well again that's not my argument - but do you want to prop up a system that helps a few

while denying coverage to others, all for the benefit of a few big insurance companies? Americans need to be weaned away from our health insurance system, and that's not going to happen under Obama Care

I don't think it can be done right now which is why I support the bill as passed.

Bryant

[CreekDog]

36. But Obamacare requires insurance companies to stop denying coverage, TO ALL

perhaps you have no idea what Obamacare is.

[el_bryanto]

37. It also requires everybody to sign up for private insurance with no public option

So while it does require them to pay out a little more (assuming they can't figure out a way around) it also requires a lot more customers to start participating in this parasitical industry.

Bryant

[CreekDog]

40. so you're retracting your statement that insurance companies can deny coverage under Obamacare

[el_bryanto]

41. Yes - we'll see how things go. We'll see if the insurance companies find ways around that. nt

[yuiyoshida]

3. Delay it a Year and you will have your Death Panels...

Those IN CRITICAL condition could expire without adequate health care.

[dkf]

6. I support delaying the individual mandate until everything is set up properly.

First I have a problem with compelling the people to buy insurance from a for profit system and second forcing them to enroll into what sounds to be potentially very messy seems to be asking for a backlash.

The admin was flexible on the employer mandate because they knew it had problems in the set up. That seems the reasonable thing to do for the individual mandate.

On the other hand if the exchanges are ready people should have access as promised.

It is upsetting Sibelius didn't do a better job. Admittedly it is a big project but they picked a time period they apparently thought was feasible for set up so that isn't the public's fault.

[CreekDog]

10. but if you were in congress how would you vote on the proposals to delay and defund?

those are the choices now.

do you support delaying and defunding an imperfect law the way it's been proposed to be defunded or not?

it's not supposed to be a hard question. the support option doesn't mean the law is "perfect".

[dkf]

12. I would probably vote to not defund but state openly that I would support a delay in the mandate...

And other reasonable measures.

I would be okay with dropping the medical device tax. That isn't a cost saving measure.

[CreekDog]

26. you would "probably" not defund?

probably?

[cstanleytech]

48. And your problem with that word is what ................... ?

[CreekDog]

50. the "probably" part of helping the poor get Medicaid or sudsidized health care

yes, nobody here should be saying they "probably" wouldn't want to defund that. in fact, almost nobody does say that here.

[cstanleytech]

55. "nobody here should be saying ..." So if suddenly a new proposal

that say was to expand medicare/medicaid to cover everyone instead then we shouldnt support defunding obamacare plan?

[CreekDog]

57. don't play games with me

really.

the moment that poster who rails against government spending of most kinds, who repeated Mitt Romney's claims about Benghazi here after the 2nd debate --if you think that poster really just wants greater funding than Obamacare, then you aren't paying attention.

as for me, of course i support more funding. but i won't undermine this program in hopes of hypothetical programs or funding.

[cstanleytech]

67. Mmm well I am not advocating undermining this program just that one should always keep an open mind

incase something does change.

[Puzzledtraveller]

11. Ditto-dkf

[RandiFan1290]

13. Where is your vote?

[dkf]

14. I replied above. Not to defund but state my support of delaying the mandate for now.

Til everything is set up and ready. I would be actively advocating for that as a compromise.

This shouldn't be an I win you lose situation. It's about getting policy right and being as fair as possible. It's also about being reasonable.

I wonder if this isn't the end game Obama has plotted out. Of course if it is he will be tagged as a "capitulator" by the types that want us to play chicken til we go off the cliff.

[cstanleytech]

46. I have no objection to a small delay if and only if its to make the program better but

the terroristic tactic of refusing to honor the debt by congress as an effort to blackmail the president should be removed for good by placing in the hands of the president because the majority of congress have clearly shown themselves to be unfit to do their job properly.

[CreekDog]

24. removed it from the undecided column

[leftstreet]

20. +1

[SomethingFishy]

15. Defunding Obamacare is just the tip of what they are holding hostage...

They are using the debt ceiling to try to defund Obamacare, build the Keystone Pipeline, create Tax Reform, and reduce environmental regulations...

It's bullshit, they are nothing but little babies throwing a tantrum because they aren't getting their way. If one more goddamn Republican says "they aren't compromising" I'm gonna puke. The whole fucking bill was one big compromise from the start.

[Agschmid]

17. Kick.

[Stinky The Clown]

18. I'll bet you thought there would be "no" votes.

[CreekDog]

23. No. I posted to show that folks here are unified on this.

I've posted polls before where very strong consensus was likely.

[geek tragedy]

28. There are two people arguing for delay in other threads who voted "pass" in this thread.

One of them said the Democrats are only opposing delay because of "ego."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3752898

[Andy823]

38. Yeah, I caught that also.

This is the first step in eventually getting to a "real" universal health care program, and delaying it in any way is simply wrong. It will only allow the right to keep on trying to defund, or delay it. They know that by the time 2016 rolls around the vast majority of people are going to like Obamacare, and all the lies they have been spewing will be used against them in the elections.

Sure the plan needs to be fixed in places, and it will if we can make sure it is NOT delayed, and that come 2014 we get out and vote the clowns that want to end affordable health care, out of office! Why people can't see through the right wing BS is beyond me.

[geek tragedy]

39. It needs to be implemented to be improved.

The only reason people want to delay it is to kill it.

If we cave and let them delay it one year now, they'll just demand another delay in a year.

It will never be ready to go without glitches. Nothing of any consequence is.

[Rex]

42. I notice that poster already has insurance.

If we give in now, the Tea Party will see it as a victory and do who knows what next that is crazy and even more dangerous to the country.

They are like kids behind the wheel of a steamroller and they don't seem to know how to drive the dam thing...and don't care cuz they are all having a blast! At our expense.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

25. pretty clear, isn't it?

hope this poll helped you refine your understanding of DU opinion on the matter.

[CreekDog]

52. I knew there would be consensus, I didn't know it would be basically unanimous

[Skittles]

29. I'm not a big fan of Obamacare

I think it could have been MUCH better, but as someone who has always thought health insurance should not be tied to employment, I am on board with this "first step". But the idea that a minority of teabagging bastards can stop the major achievement of President Obama, AFTER IT WAS UPHELD BY THE SUPREME COURT, is *OBSCENE*

[DefenseLawyer]

30. I think Obamacare is a boondoggle

But I don't support any effort by the Republicans to use the debt ceiling as a way to get what they couldn't get through the actual legislative process.

[Rex]

34. Never negotiate with terrorists.

Once you give in to their demands, the terrorists in Congress win. We are watching the GOP implode. Hopefully.

[OmahaBlueDog]

43. The construction of the question reminds me of a ballot iniative

If I vote in opposition, I'm actually supporting the item in question.

[CreekDog]

44. it's basically the question that Dems face on Obamacare

the question Republicans are presenting them with is, will they vote to delay and defund it or will they oppose that.

i would say that DUers don't seem to be confused by it.

[OmahaBlueDog]

76. I was simply making an observation

It was neither written to indicate confusion, nor as a criticism of the post.

[geek tragedy]

45. It's how the votes are happening in Congress. nt

[rrneck]

47. Well,

we're ON RECORD now.

[joshcryer]

49. perfect

[ZombieHorde]

51. I oppose delaying/defunding, but know one seems to know everything in it.

I wouldn't shocked if many of us hated it a year from now.

[CreekDog]

54. which part will we hate a year from now?

community rating is in there.

individual and business mandates are in there.

no exclusions for preexisting conditions are in there.

insurers must issue insurance that covers a range of necessary medical care to all who buy it.

expansion of Medicaid for the very poor.

subsidies will make the now community rated prices more affordable than now.

insurers, unlike prior to ACA will have to spend 80-85% of premiums collected on medical care, not corporate profits.

so what's the thing you are saying we will all hate that's on my list? or what trumps all those things that will make us hate all the good things on the list?

[ZombieHorde]

56. It's 3000 pages long.

We don't know about most of it.

[CreekDog]

59. are you really trotting out that Republican BS talking point?

how many pages should the bill be?



http://mediamatters.org/research/2009/10/30/media-echo-gops-fixation-on-size-of-house-healt/156329

Media echo GOP's fixation on size of House health care reform bill
October 30, 2009 12:55 PM EDT ››› JOCELYN FONG


Following the release of the House Democrats' health care reform bill, the leaders of the House Republican caucus repeatedly stressed the length and size of the bill during an October 29 press conference. Numerous media figures and outlets have followed in lockstep, with the Politico's Jonathan Allen asserting that the bill "comes out to about $2.24 million per word," and Sean Hannity claiming that "if you can't put this down in 30 pages or less, it proves that this is a complicated, you know, bunch of bureaucratic garbage."

Boehner issues statement on "Speaker Pelosi's 1,990-Page Government Takeover of Health Care." House Minority Leader John Boehner stated on October 29 that "[t]he fact that it weighs in at nearly 2,000 pages -- more than 620 pages longer than the government takeover of health care Hillary Clinton proposed in 1993 -- is as good an indication as any of just how costly and unsustainable Speaker Pelosi's proposal is."

Barton: "[T]hat's about four reams of paper." Rep. Joe Barton (R-TX) stated at the October 29 Republican leadership press conference, "I would say, 1,990 pages -- that's about four reams of paper. I would say that the people getting reamed are the American people."

...

Cantor: Do the people believe this "nearly 2,000-page bill is not going to explode the federal deficit? I don't think so." Rep. Eric Cantor (R-VA) stated at the press conference, "Do the American people really believe this bill -- this nearly 2,000-page bill -- is not going to explode the federal deficit? I don't think so." As he spoke, Cantor held up the bill.

[ZombieHorde]

63. I have a feeling you're not really sure what I'm saying,

so I am going to walk you through it in bullet points.

-I currently support the bill.
-I do not know everything within the bill.
-Most everyone here doesn't know everything in the bill.
-Some of the unknown things may not be popular here on DU.

I hope that answers "the fuck," in your WTF question.

[CreekDog]

65. So you're complaining about what you haven't read and don't know

and assuming we all are as limited.

[ZombieHorde]

66. I am not complaining about anything, you big silly.

You're seeing foes where there aren't any.

Additionally, judging by the posts I have read, I am fairly certain most here did not read the whole bill.

[hansberrym]

58. The Mandate is an obsene overreach and should be eliminated

From PPACA:
"The requirement regulates activity that is commercial and economic in nature: economic and financial decisions about how and when health care is paid for, and when health insurance is purchased." H.R. 3590 Subtitle F, sec. 1501 B


How many of the 196 who voted against delaying actually support the idea that Congress can regulate our economic decisions?

[Gravitycollapse]

61. Do you support single payer or nationalized healthcare?

[hansberrym]

71. No, do you?

[steve2470]

78. hmm.....you're not in favor of the PPACA and you're not in favor of single payer

What ARE you in favor of ? Note I'm being kind to you.

[hansberrym]

81. I am in favor of the current system in which the poor receive health care because health providers

may not refuse treatment.

The current system regulates those actually in commerce (health providers, hospitals, ect.) while providing care for those who need it. Those with health insurance indirectly subsidize those who cannot afford to pay for their own care, but those with insurance also receive a tax break on their insurance, so most got something out of the old system. It would have been very easy to simply extend tax breaks to persons who purchased policies for themselves (the self employed).

[CreekDog]

83. the emergency room?

seriously?

[CreekDog]

85. Oh, Skinner just banned you. LOL

good.

[geek tragedy]

62. Everyone who isn't a Paul-humping Libertarian fuckwit supports the idea that

Congress can regulate our economic decisions.

I suggest you read up on the commerce clause of the constitution.

[hansberrym]

69. Congress can regulate our economic decisions? Seriously. n/t

[geek tragedy]

70. Heard of the commerce clause? nt

[hansberrym]

73. Yes, and you?

Congress can regulate commerce, not each person's economic decidions.

[steve2470]

79. heard of the Supreme Court decision in National Federation of Independent Business v. Sebelius ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Federation_of_Independent_Business_v._Sebelius

Sorry, your side got outvoted. Even Chief Justice Roberts sided with PBO.

[hansberrym]

80. Did you read it? Apparently not.

The claim that Congress can regulate economic decsions under the commerce clause lost 5-4.

The Chief Justice did not agree woth the President, in fact while the president claimed this was not a tax, The CJ insisted it must be read as tax even though it isn't, otherwise it would be unconstitutional.

The CJ subverted Demacracy by rewriting the mandate/Penaty as a tax even though there is no way in hell it could have passed as a tax, and even though there is no such thing as a tax on not purchaing an item.

[geek tragedy]

84. You're on the wrong website, given your rightwing views

on government and Obamacare.

[lonestarnot]

60. Hell no!

[Skip Intro]

64. Can I know what it is going to cost me first?

Like maybe see the exchanges and then decide if a delay is warranted?

[CreekDog]

68. if you support the Democratic position, i'll eat my hat

[geek tragedy]

72. Only people who want delay are Republicans who want to

kill the ACA. You know everything you need to know now. If you favor helping the Republicans kill it, you favor delay. If you don't support killing it, you oppose delay.

[Skip Intro]

74. The poll asks about delay.

I didn't make it up.

Do you know any other means of discourse besides name-calling?

[geek tragedy]

75. I am stating a fact. A vote to delay is a vote to kill.

[CreekDog]

77. well there's laughing at people who are being laid off

but i don't recommend it and maybe now that you've tried it, you don't either.

[SoCalDem]

82. It should have gone into effect SOONER

Imagine if it would have been Medicare for ALL..as of 2011...

Insurers would be busily writing supplemental policies by now...

Money "spent" by employers on the behalf of employees should have been added to their paychecks...people would have had money to spend for a few years by now, and out economy might just have rebounded by now..

Employers would finally be free from having to be in the medical insurance business..

The premiums sent to Medicare instead of AETNA, CIGNA, KAISER et al CEO pockets would be filling Medicare coffers..

There would be NO NEED for the VA (except for the specialty medical facilities for rehabilitation...no need for TRI CARE...or anything but Medicare for ALL of us...