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(37,305 posts)
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 07:27 AM Oct 2013

Biker cop joined in SUV beatdown, hit vehicle

Biker cop joined in SUV beatdown, hit vehicle

By Larry Celona, Jamie Schram and Kate SheehyOctober 7, 2013 | 10:32pm

An off-duty undercover cop who had claimed he took no active role as fellow bikers pulled a Manhattan dad from his SUV and beat him to a pulp was actually pounding the vehicle with his fists at the height of the bloody road-rage attack, sources told The Post.

The cop, a seven-year veteran, had told investigators he didn’t help the injured man because he rode up to the scene as the beating was nearly over, sources said.

But video footage clearly shows otherwise, disgusted sources said Monday — and Internal Affairs Bureau higher-ups want to nail the officer.

Still, probers believe their hands are tied, sources said, because authorities have dropped charges against another biker, Allen Edwards, 43, of Queens, who allegedly punched the rear window of Alexian Lien’s Range Rover before Lien was pummeled in front of his wife and 2-year-old daughter.


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Biker cop joined in SUV beatdown, hit vehicle (Original Post) dkf Oct 2013 OP
Yay, Cops! MrScorpio Oct 2013 #1
many, many cops in NYC - bound to be a few bad apples DrDan Oct 2013 #3
And they've spoiled the whole bunch! nt MrScorpio Oct 2013 #5
Define a few? Savannahmann Oct 2013 #7
Well said. Thanks for saying it so clearly and forcefully. AnotherMcIntosh Oct 2013 #12
clearly and forcefully, perhaps, but without a shred of logic or evidence DrDan Oct 2013 #15
"all cops are bad" and "there are no good cops" is so bogus DrDan Oct 2013 #14
See the last part of post #15 AnotherMcIntosh Oct 2013 #19
I offered a clear logical argument Savannahmann Oct 2013 #30
Much like bikers. LanternWaste Oct 2013 #23
BS - all cops are not bad dbackjon Oct 2013 #37
I'm afraid I don't see how you arrive at that assumption. Savannahmann Oct 2013 #39
There was nothing logical or sensible in your argument dbackjon Oct 2013 #43
Astonishing Savannahmann Oct 2013 #44
Had that been your original post dbackjon Oct 2013 #48
All police are bad. tazkcmo Oct 2013 #54
But I maintain there are no good cops. Savannahmann Oct 2013 #55
Exactly. tazkcmo Oct 2013 #60
Then you are screwed in the head dbackjon Oct 2013 #68
It is just a few bad apples Nevernose Oct 2013 #57
No all cops are not bad Egnever Oct 2013 #63
A bank robber does not rob a bank every day. Savannahmann Oct 2013 #65
You are taking singular incidents and applying them to everything Egnever Oct 2013 #66
Every single black in America has endured police harassment Savannahmann Oct 2013 #75
youre correct we have to keep in mind that there are good officers there they just dont get the leftyohiolib Oct 2013 #16
for every bad officer, there's a good officer covering up for a bad officer.. frylock Oct 2013 #34
And how can you be a "good cop" tazkcmo Oct 2013 #56
They show the begining of the incident on TV . . . brush Oct 2013 #27
The motorcycle break checked the SUV. tammywammy Oct 2013 #28
But the suv did run over a motorcycle and rider and take off brush Oct 2013 #50
Sorry but no Egnever Oct 2013 #67
That's not the beginning of the incident. Mojo Electro Oct 2013 #32
How do you run over a bike and rider though on the freeway and not share some fault? brush Oct 2013 #51
The bikers captured the SUV in the travel lanes without provocation cpwm17 Oct 2013 #62
Here's some of my response on another thread. Hope it explains some things: wercal Oct 2013 #77
And if you look you can see that the left rear tire is also flat cpwm17 Oct 2013 #78
A few more things wercal Oct 2013 #79
that's the middle WolverineDG Oct 2013 #40
Yes it is. tazkcmo Oct 2013 #59
why would they drop the charges against the biker who punched the rear window? DrDan Oct 2013 #2
I think they are one and the same. janlyn Oct 2013 #10
that certainly would be reasonable DrDan Oct 2013 #17
If he didn't damage property, or a person, what would be the crime? nt msanthrope Oct 2013 #11
"punched the rear window" - would agree with you if no damage was done while DrDan Oct 2013 #18
That is considered a Road Rage incident and would get me instantly arrested if I did it. Ikonoklast Oct 2013 #38
It's ok to do it if you're a good cop though. n/t tazkcmo Oct 2013 #61
All the cops that were riding in this group should be arrested! B Calm Oct 2013 #4
For what charge? Decaffeinated Oct 2013 #6
Speeding, popping wheelies, terrorizing the public, dangerous driving, B Calm Oct 2013 #8
Off duty. Savannahmann Oct 2013 #9
I don't know the law... Decaffeinated Oct 2013 #13
undercover's don't carry a badge and usually not a weapon TorchTheWitch Oct 2013 #24
From what I've read, only one cop was undercover Nevernose Oct 2013 #58
the other five don't exist TorchTheWitch Oct 2013 #70
According to NY news media Nevernose Oct 2013 #71
how do you know what he identified? TorchTheWitch Oct 2013 #73
Yes wercal Oct 2013 #21
Interesting if true... Decaffeinated Oct 2013 #22
I suspect there are different levels of response wercal Oct 2013 #25
All of the cops should be fired immediately. Owl Oct 2013 #47
If you find a real source then I'll pay attention TorchTheWitch Oct 2013 #20
NBC: Undercover cop seen on video attacking SUV dkf Oct 2013 #26
well good then TorchTheWitch Oct 2013 #33
The Moonie Times? 1981 called and wants its facts back ..... TeamPooka Oct 2013 #45
So? TorchTheWitch Oct 2013 #49
Whatever floats your boat old timer. But if youwant younger folks to take you seriously TeamPooka Oct 2013 #69
yeah being in my 40's makes me so ancient and irrelivant TorchTheWitch Oct 2013 #74
At least you are aware of the problem. Good luck with the cure... Nt TeamPooka Oct 2013 #80
This just gets worse and worse for the NYPD. MicaelS Oct 2013 #29
A rogue element in Bloomers Army? Rex Oct 2013 #31
Up to 6 bikers involved in beating of SUV driver, court papers say jsr Oct 2013 #35
i still don't know why they dropped charges against the piece of shit who smashed the window JI7 Oct 2013 #36
If this had happened in any other place where a citizen is allowed a firearm protect himself Ikonoklast Oct 2013 #41
Did you hear about the one guy who stepped in to stop the attack? WolverineDG Oct 2013 #42
That deserves it's own thread Savannahmann Oct 2013 #46
It actually had its own thread Tien1985 Oct 2013 #64
Can't wait for that loud mouth scumbag Lynch to come to these piggies defense. Dawson Leery Oct 2013 #52
Fucking cops typical cop behaviour gopiscrap Oct 2013 #53
That cop who smashed in the back window (where, no doubt, the tblue37 Oct 2013 #72
Fucking pig cop! I knew something stunk when he waited days before admitting he was there. nt Raine Oct 2013 #76


(3,891 posts)
7. Define a few?
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 07:38 AM
Oct 2013

Because the truth, the sad truth is that all cops are bad. There are those like yourself who claim it is a few bad apples. Yet when one of these "bad apples" is exposed, and the record is looked at, there is inevitably a long litany of questionable actions, that were ignored by the majority. When the occasional "good" cop is questioned, they claim you don't speak out because of fear of "retribution" from the bad ones. But if the bad ones are "just a few" then wouldn't they worry about retribution? I mean, if there were four bad cops out of a hundred, then wouldn't the 96 have more power than the four?

So by simple logic, the vast majority must not be the good ones. Then you look at the so called good ones, they may not pummel a suspect and lie about it. But when they see a suspect pummeled, or lies told, they never speak up. So they are enabling the bad ones, covering for them, and even lying for them. So how good can they be? Oh they may not sexually abuse a woman on the side of the road, but they cover for the guy who is. They may not use excessive force, but they write the reports to cover the guy who is.

There are no good cops is the only conclusion you can possibly arrive at. Here we have one who is caught on video standing by and ignoring the beating of a victim to the point where his life and the lives of his family are ruined. Several off duty cops, who would quickly pull their badges to get themselves out of trouble, did nothing to help the man who needed it, and even participated in the beatings and reckless endangerment of other drivers.

Think again about the cops, and ask yourself how those few bad ones get away with it so often? The only answer is that the bad ones, are the majority, and the empowered criminal gang that is the police work to make sure they are protected from us the citizenry they subdue.



(3,891 posts)
30. I offered a clear logical argument
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 11:43 AM
Oct 2013

You offered a retort that it is bogus without any proof or other logic to back it up.

My personal favorite is at 4:10 when the "suspect" is thrown from the car during the crash, and the police assist his unmoving form by beating him in case a couple bones were not broken during the rollover of the van.

So which of those half dozen were the bad cops? Which were the good ones? It's hard to tell when they all rush and jump on an unmoving man laying on the ground.


(3,891 posts)
39. I'm afraid I don't see how you arrive at that assumption.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 05:34 PM
Oct 2013

I made a logical and sensible argument, and your reply is that the country would collapse. PFUI.



(6,578 posts)
43. There was nothing logical or sensible in your argument
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 06:16 PM
Oct 2013

100% anti-cop bullshit.

Trying living in a country with no law enforcement.

Move to Somalia for a bit.



(3,891 posts)
44. Astonishing
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 07:41 PM
Oct 2013

In no way did I suggest any corrective action. I did not allude to any corrective action. In other posts over the years I've been a member here, I have, but not in this particular post.

FYI, to assuage your mind, or once again for the record, let me point out what I'd like to see.

1) Civilian Oversight Boards that are made up of community leaders selected by a mayor, or other elected leader with the power to investigate police actions. These boards were created in the 1970's in many large cities when police abuse was rampant, and went a long way to curbing the excesses, but were never going to eliminate them. However, they are a good first line investigation and review board against police excesses. By community leaders I mean civil rights attorneys, pastors of churches, leaders of civic organizations. Not businessmen who contributed to the mayors or other civic officials.

2) Mandatory Polygraph testing for Police Officers. Every six months the individuals have to go on the box and pass the polygraph to show they have not lied under oath, planted evidence, or otherwise abused their official powers or committed a crime or witnessed any of the above and failed to report it in another police officer. As has been pointed out this will not work with sociopathic personalities, however we hope that such a small percentage of police are such types. I'm not saying that the individual who fails the test is under arrest. I'm not even suggesting that the first such failure should result in dismissal. I am one who understands that people have bad days, bad weeks, whatever. So if you fail one test, you have two weeks to straighten out anything that is bothering you, and get it behind you to retest. If you fail the second one, you turn in your badge, and gun. It doesn't mean you are a horrible person, but it does mean you do not get to have the authority, and the power over the public.

3) Enforcement of existing laws against police officers, and that means all of them. If I see my neighbor hit his wife, and I fail to report that, I have committed a crime. If I have reason to believe my friend robbed a bank, and I instead provide him with an alibi for the time the robbery was committed, I am guilty of conspiracy. If I do nothing with my information, I am guilty of obstruction of Justice. If a Police officer sits on evidence that a fellow officer abused a suspect, he is never charged with a crime. If one cop knows another lied, and says nothing, there is never a conspiracy charge. Why? Are the police that far above the law that normal civic behavior is to be sneered at instead of enforced? I say enforce the laws equally between those with and those without the badges.

Those are but a few of the reforms I have suggested before regarding law enforcement. I abhor the corruption and the abuses, but I do not suggest anarchy should be the answer. I have no idea where you got that idea, other than perhaps some sort of prejudicial lumping me into some imaginary category. One can hate the abuses without hating the ideals. One can honestly admit that the thin blue line is not working to serve and protect us, while longing for the day that they begin to truly work for those of us who have given them the special trust and authority that goes with the badge.

Until that time, those who wear the badge, are stained with the dishonor that they do themselves. A few very brave cops come forward now and then and talk about the systemic corruption. Officers like Frank Serpico, who exposed the systemic corruption of the NYPD in the 1970's, and led to the first of those civilian oversight boards I mentioned above. Los Angeles started theirs after complaints of racially motivated shootings by the police. We never should have eliminated those panels, we should have extended them far and wide until every department was explaining the actions of their officers to a panel of civilians who had the authority to demand an investigation by the District Attorney.

It is a question of who watches the watchers, to use the old quote. Only by dragging the corruption into the light of day do we have any hope of exposing it and ending it. Until that day, the police are our oppressors, not our protectors. Until the civilians call the shots and the phrase "internal investigation" is eliminated from our vocabularies, we will never eliminate the systemic corruption that exists in all our police departments.



(6,578 posts)
48. Had that been your original post
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 08:06 PM
Oct 2013

I wouldn't have commented. I support all of the above.

What I will not support, and can never let pass, is the demeaning statement that all cops are bad.

You'd be suprised how many LEO's post on here. Most are in the closet about it, given DU's extreme anti-police bias.


(7,258 posts)
54. All police are bad.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 09:25 PM
Oct 2013

If not, where are the good ones when shit like this happens? Everyday I see an article about police brutality and have NEVER read of the so called "good cop" stepping in and stopping a beating or reporting the "bad cops". I'd be pleasantly surprised and ready to apologize as soon as you can provide say, twenty recent "good cop" stories where they come to the rescue of a victim of "bad cops". Good luck with that.



(3,891 posts)
55. But I maintain there are no good cops.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 09:27 PM
Oct 2013

Remember the scenarios I mentioned above. Even the "Good" cops who don't abuse prisoners, or use excessive force, or plant evidence. Those "good" cops cover for those who do. If I did that it would be conspiracy or accessory at the minimum. But those "good" cops do it and maintain the silence of the thin blue line protective society.

Even when the "bad" officers are caught, they are rarely charged with a crime. Usually they are suspended with pay, and then sent out to work again. Did you watch the video above? Did you watch those officers brutalize people? Again, my favorite is at the 4:10 area. Now, I will grant you that the van was fleeing in a high speed pursuit. However once the van wrecked, and they saw him thrown from the vehicle, and not moving. The cops still jumped on him. Nobody struggled to put cuffs on him, or otherwise restrain him. They just beat the poor bugger with clubs, fists, and kicks. He wasn't moving, he may even have been dead. But that did not assuage their fury at the audacity of the public to defy the almighty power of the police.

Watch the video my friend, watch part two. My wife was literally ill after watching them. Which of those cops beating that man who was unmoving on the ground after being thrown from the van as it rolled over was the good one? Because there were at least six or eight beating on that man, was that merely the collection of the few bad apples?



(6,578 posts)
68. Then you are screwed in the head
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 10:56 PM
Oct 2013

I feel sorry for you. Again. Try living in a country with truly bad cops or none at all

You and the rest of the cop haters here are pathetic



(21,506 posts)
63. No all cops are not bad
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 09:55 PM
Oct 2013

All cops are people.

People under a lot of stress every day. Of course they look out for each other, it is a natural instinct when you are put in harms way day after day with the same folks. Of course you watch their back.

For all the bad cop stories you hear there are thousands of good cop stories that aren't as exciting to read about and so common they don't warrant a spot on the news.

There are lots of bad cops out there to be sure but they aren't the majority. Cops are people they have bad days like anyone else.

While your argument sounds good its very simplistic.

I have had plenty of run ins with cops some good some bad. Some where amazing compassion was shown by these folks you want to paint with a broad brush as all being bad.



(3,891 posts)
65. A bank robber does not rob a bank every day.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 10:19 PM
Oct 2013

A rapist does not rape a woman every day. A murderer does not murder every day. Yet because the police don't beat you every time you come in contact with them, you assume that they never do those things. Then why don't we assume that the person accused of robbery, rape, murder, and all the other crimes didn't do it, because he didn't do it every day, or every time we saw or heard of them?

You are attempting to confuse the issue. By taking limited personal experience and attempting to make it macro experience you diminish the suffering of those who do get beaten somewhere in this nation, somewhere in my state, every single day.

My argument is the application of logic to the situation. Are the police beating people mercilessly? Videos posted here many times say yes. Are there enough videos to say that this is a widespread problem? Certainly. Does that assertion require as it's proof of concept that such beatings happen with every contact the police have? Certainly not. By that standard many people would argue that the KGB were friendly, polite, and concerned with the safety of the Russian People. Just because those individual were dragged into Lubyanka prison and tortured doesn't mean it wasn't happening. We know it was happening, history says it was.

In the 1950's the police were furious that the Courts started disallowing confessions that were coerced by the use of physical force. They swore that this would eliminate their ability to solve crimes. You see, it's much easier to beat a confession out of a guy than it is to investigate. In the 1960's the police were shooting blacks in what was frankly, murderous circumstances. This continues today, but after TJ Hooker, and other cop shows of the 1980's the public started to believe that the cops were really the good guys and never broke the rules. Then video started to peel back that mask, and we are now waking up to the truth, that not much has changed other than the tools used by the police.

Rodney King is a great example, because in it every cop on the scene wrote a report. In that report they all said much the same thing, that the swarm technique was used to effect an arrest. But the truth was they beat him mercilessly. Every single cop on the scene wrote the same report, not one of them wrote that King was beaten for minutes with the nightsticks and kicked. Yet none of those officers who lied on those reports was fired for lying in official reports. Oh sure, some were, and then later acquitted by a jury that was hand picked to make sure they walked free. But the others, why weren't they fired for lying? Why were none of them fired for failing to report that beating?

Look at the videos, and ask yourself why none of those cops are ever fired, faced with criminal charges. In those rare instances where a cop is charged, why are none of the other cops who lied to protect him ever fired for those lies much less charged like the rest of us would be?

Another good example. Every year police dogs die in the heat of the cars. Every year. Yet if I leave a pet in the car, I'm charged with animal abuse. Yet a police dog dies, and all that happens is the officer in question is reprimanded, and reassigned from K9 duty. Sometimes the police chief will come out and tell us the citizenry that the officer feels really bad about the death of his doggy partner. Aww. Why is it that the average Joe isn't allowed to feel terrible about the death of fluffy and that is the end of it?

There are no good cops. I maintain it and I believe it in my heart. The more research you do you will have to honestly come to the same conclusion. BTW, it helps to have some black friends in this research. Because I've never met a black man or woman who wasn't harassed by the police for no reason.



(21,506 posts)
66. You are taking singular incidents and applying them to everything
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 10:45 PM
Oct 2013

as if because one American robs a bank all Americans are bank robbers because they live in the same country.

The argument for better police oversight and more appropriate repercussions for bad behavior is a perfectly valid argument. One i would be happy to get behind myself.

The idea that all cops are bad because some cops beat people is ridiculous.



(3,891 posts)
75. Every single black in America has endured police harassment
Wed Oct 9, 2013, 05:41 AM
Oct 2013

Pulled over for no reason, or some lame excuse. A friend of mine has an old Chevrolet Impala. It has a custom engine, suspension, expensive rims, the whole nine yards. The paint job cost four thousand dollars. Not once has he ever finished a trip. Every time he rolls down the road the cops pull him over. Interesting thing, he never gets a ticket. They search for drugs, inspect his car, and then announce they are letting him off with a warning.

another friend drives a thirty year old Mercedes. He restored it with the sweat and hard labor that such things require. I've seen him pulled over in that car several times. The police pulling him over have usually done so before. Once again, they check out the car under the assumption that any black man driving a nice car must be a drug dealer or a criminal in some sort. This kind of thing happens every single day, and there is nothing you can do to stop it. New York is probably still doing stop and frisk, but now they're claiming the person they want to stop jaywalked, spat on the sidewalk, whatever.

These are not isolated incidents. These are patterns of behavior. Every day another video is uploaded to the net. Every day another person in my state is beaten, assaulted, harassed. I used to live in California, and I can tell you that it happens there too.

Now, how do these bad cops get away with it? They get away with it because the "good" cops lie on official forms, and in court, to protect their brother officers. Lying under oath is supposed to be Perjury, which is a felony. How good can you be if you commit felonies? Refusing to report the actions of brother officers is obstruction of justice. Obstruction of justice is a felony. How good can you be if you commit felonies again? Lying to protect your brother officers is automatic. it's explained to you as a rookie officer. By failing to leave the police at that time to seek other employment you are now part of a conspiracy. Participation in a conspiracy is a felony. That's three felonies that every single cop has to have committed at least once no matter how remote the department is. Three felonies, and you insist that they are good cops?

Civil Forfeiture laws.

So the whole state of Tennessee is involved in the systemic theft of private property. Sure the law allows it, but is it right?


(5,917 posts)
16. youre correct we have to keep in mind that there are good officers there they just dont get the
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 08:57 AM
Oct 2013

publicity ( are you by chance stephanie miller's dr dan?)


(34,825 posts)
34. for every bad officer, there's a good officer covering up for a bad officer..
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 02:25 PM
Oct 2013

remind me again, who are these good officers?


(7,258 posts)
56. And how can you be a "good cop"
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 09:28 PM
Oct 2013

if you don't call out the "bad cop'? You can't be. I will NEVER call a cop for any reason at all. They have lost my trust and respect.


(52,869 posts)
27. They show the begining of the incident on TV . . .
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 11:00 AM
Oct 2013

this morning. The SUV is clearly seen RUNNING OVER the motorcycle and its rider then taking off at high speed down the freeway.

It seems that the driver of the SUV instigated the whole thing.

It certainly go out of hand when the other bikers caught up with him once he exited the freeway but how do you run over someone and their motorcycle and just take off.

Isn't that a blatant hit-and-run offense?


(26,582 posts)
28. The motorcycle break checked the SUV.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 11:05 AM
Oct 2013

The SUV didn't take off until after his vehicle was attacked.

The accident was the fault of the motorcycle. The SUV driver had the right to take off once the other riders started threatening him by pounding on his SUV.

Also, the original motorcycle rider that break checked him wasn't the one run over. He never fell off his bike.

Mojo Electro

(362 posts)
32. That's not the beginning of the incident.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 12:03 PM
Oct 2013

The incident began well before the SUV ran over the bike. At that point, he was fleeing for the safety of his family because he was being attacked.


(52,869 posts)
51. How do you run over a bike and rider though on the freeway and not share some fault?
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 08:40 PM
Oct 2013

The attack didn't happen until he got off the freeway.



(3,829 posts)
62. The bikers captured the SUV in the travel lanes without provocation
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 09:52 PM
Oct 2013

Last edited Wed Oct 9, 2013, 08:48 AM - Edit history (1)

They were at a complete stop on on the freeway that they had blocked off and the bikers were approaching the captured SUV, and possibly directly threatening the driver. There are so many levels of wrong here that there is no question the SUV had to flee. If a captor gets in the way that's his problem.

This was an out of control mob driving illegal motorcycles and conducting illegal activities.


(1,370 posts)
77. Here's some of my response on another thread. Hope it explains some things:
Wed Oct 9, 2013, 08:29 AM
Oct 2013

1. A few dozen bikes are going all over the place, not maintaining a lane whatsoever. That is illegal.

2. The biker who initially makes contact with the SUV gets into his lane. Watch the video, and you will see this. That is illegal.

3. The biker in question gets in front of the SUV and deliberately slows down in front of it. Going less than the minimum. This act is illegal. Driving less than the state minimum hwy speed limit is illegal.

Then the contact happens. The biker has done several things that are illegal. The SUV driver has done nothing that is illegal. If you have ever been in an accident, you will notice that insurance companies and the courts tend to assign blame to whichever party was cited for doing something illegal - no 'shared responsibility', if only one party did something illegal.

Ok, now the initial contact has occurred. All the bike riders who stop in their lanes - if they aren't witnesses, stopping on the highway is illegal. All those bike riders who did witness the accident, but chose to stay on the road, instead of pulling off to the shoulder - that is illegal. The bike rider who was ultimately paralyzed, who parked his bike in the middle lane of traffic, in a manner that prevented the SUV driver from moving forward or off the road - that was illegal. The people who got off of their bikes, in the middle of the highway and approached the SUV - that was illegal.

So quite a lot of events have occurred, lots of laws have been broken...but the SUV driver still has done nothing illegal. Now at BEST, he's looking at several bikers illegally surrounding his vehicle, and one in particular illegally blocking his ability to pull off the highway and exchange insurance info, like a normal human being. Now at WORST, and according to the NY police, some of these bikers were illegally beating on his SUV.

And I'll add to that, with some more recent information. Here is a photo of the SUV:


Notice how its missing a tire. The occupants of the SUV claim that the bikers were slashing their tires, while they were...err...exchanging insurance information. The absence of a tire gives credence to this claim. So would you, after being forcibly brought to a stop in the middle of the highway, surrounded by a group of strangers...who are beating your car and slashing your tires:

a) hang around to see how many teeth you'll have in a few minutes
b) get out of there, no matter how



(3,829 posts)
78. And if you look you can see that the left rear tire is also flat
Wed Oct 9, 2013, 09:02 AM
Oct 2013

and in another photo taken later it appears that the right rear tire might have been flat also. The rear tires may have been slashed at the last stop, but it makes the claim that they had slashed a tire during the freeway capture more believable.

And, there was no accident on the freeway. The motorcycle never went down and it's not clear that they even made contact during the motorcycle-caused SUV capture incident.


(1,370 posts)
79. A few more things
Wed Oct 9, 2013, 10:39 AM
Oct 2013

1. The guy who slowed down in front of the SUV - the police have charged him with reckless endangerment, because its clear he's trying to do battle with this SUV, and this isn't an ordinary accident.

2. The guy who got run over - he's never had a license. He's got a lot of tickets, but never a license. He should have never been on the road in the first place. Not that I wish evil upon him...but its hard to believe he stopped to sort out the fender bender, and wait for the police to arrive, being unlicensed and all.


(22,298 posts)
40. that's the middle
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 05:38 PM
Oct 2013

the bikers caused this accident, specifically the one who slammed his brakes on just inches from the bumper of the RR. Of course the RR was going to hit him. Because physics.


(7,258 posts)
59. Yes it is.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 09:32 PM
Oct 2013

It is NOT punishable by on the spot vigilantism. I'm no law expert but I'm betting there is some kind of a legal process established to determine if a person is guilty of a crime and then, if convicted, there is probably some way to provide for a punishment of some sort. I'm sure there are smarter folks than I that can explain this whole law thingy better.


(735 posts)
10. I think they are one and the same.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 07:43 AM
Oct 2013

I think that was the cop they let off. I think they are trying to keep his cover. Undercover officers can work months or even years to build a persona and, gain the trust of the group they are infiltrating. He may be suspended for a short duration or reprimanded. The fact that they have not revealed his name I think is very telling.


(23,973 posts)
38. That is considered a Road Rage incident and would get me instantly arrested if I did it.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 05:33 PM
Oct 2013

Two sets of rules are destroying this country.



(556 posts)
6. For what charge?
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 07:35 AM
Oct 2013

Is there a requirement that they render aid at all times?

I know that requirement exists for some first responders in some states. Does that exist in NY?



(3,891 posts)
9. Off duty.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 07:40 AM
Oct 2013

They still have a badge, and the gun. They have the authority to pull a pistol and shoot someone who threatens them. Why do they have that ability if they have no responsibility?



(556 posts)
13. I don't know the law...
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 08:13 AM
Oct 2013

.. and that is why I asked.

I don't think you can codify the responsibility to intervene.

Morally, I think they should have but there isn't a special charge to bring them up on.


(11,065 posts)
24. undercover's don't carry a badge and usually not a weapon
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 09:53 AM
Oct 2013
The undercover NYPD cop who stood by as a pack of motorcyclists surrounded and attacked the driver of an SUV in Manhattan last week is an officer with about 10 years on the job – virtually all of it undercover, sources say.

As is sometimes the case in undercover operations , the officer was unarmed when the bikers he was riding with attacked driver Alexian Lien on Sept. 29. And as is almost always the case, he was not carrying a badge.

Two sources say the officer is assigned to the NYPD’s Intelligence Division. But they did not provide details on his assignment, or whether his actions, or lack of them, were meant to preserve his cover.

All files related to his career have been locked down by the NYPD’s Internal Affairs Bureau, and his assignment, whatever it was, is now over. While the officer did not take part in the assault, for which three other bikers have so far been charged, he is under investigation for waiting several days before disclosing that he was present.

As for being off duty, I'm not sure that's true. It hasn't been confirmed, and undercover officers need to work odd times depending on their assignment. Ever since this story broke and his saying he didn't do anything when the beating happened because of fear of breaking his cover I've had a horrible feeling that his assignment was to infiltrate this group. It makes sense especially since the NYPD had not been successful stopping them by conventional ways.


(11,065 posts)
70. the other five don't exist
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 11:27 PM
Oct 2013

That was a story that one reporter with unidentified sources came up with none of which has been confirmed. If the undercover cop's story could be confirmed and immediately then why can't stories of other cops involved. It's rubbish. Only a very few media outlets said anything about any additional officers being involved and they all said "may" have been and couldn't even figure out if it was 2, 3 or 5 officers. If after all this time that story of additional officers can't be confirmed it's crap. Funny how right after that bogus story nobody cares about the 1000 bikers but 1 undercover cop and 2-5 unconfirmed mystery cops that even the one original reporter hasn't followed up on. Makes one wonder who those unidentified sources that one reporter used and never followed up on about could have been, eh? And immediately following the news about the one confirmed undercover officer.

Interesting how all these other bikers that were involved in either attacking the vehicle and/or attacked Mr. Lien suddenly got identified after the undercover cop story and taken into custody. How else could they have been identified if it weren't for an undercover cop that was assigned to infiltrate their group? Why else would this undercover cop been so concerned about breaking his cover to those bikers if he was on some other assignment? And now the media isn't sure if he was on duty or not at the time now that they have all kinds of other details about him like how many years he's been on the force and that for most of those years he did undercover work.

Granted, the cop screwed up in not immediately telling his superiors that he was on the ride and witnessed what he did, and I'm not seeing any reason for him to have done any damage to the vehicle or the occupants in order to preserve his cover seeing as most of the bikers didn't get involved in that either.


(13,081 posts)
71. According to NY news media
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 11:34 PM
Oct 2013

That undercover cop who was so integral to exposing the truth has been arrested for lying to cover up his involvement. He didn't identify jack; he was trying to cover up his involvement.


(11,065 posts)
73. how do you know what he identified?
Wed Oct 9, 2013, 12:16 AM
Oct 2013

He was arrested for lying about his involvement in the attack on the SUV and the fact that he was involved in attacking the SUV since he was the one that broke out the back window. It had nothing to do with his being just part of this ride. As I said, there was no reason for him to have participated in the attack of the vehicle or its occupants in order to preserve his cover. And GOOD that he was arrested for that and for lying about it. That has nothing to do with whether or not he was on or off duty, and since he said he was trying to preserve his cover than it's logical that he WAS on duty assigned to infiltrate this group. Assigning undercover officers to infiltrate the group would have been the smartest thing for the NYPD to do in attempting to identify and arrest as many bikers as they could seeing as they were unable to catch them any other way especially since they weren't permitted to give chase since the bikers are on machines that are able to get away and they drive like total lunatics as well as not having legally registered plates (either the plates are taken off or they're stolen).

It's apparent that he was assigned to infiltrate this group since he said he was trying to preserve his cover which he'd have no reason to do if he was just off duty and voluntarily riding with these bikers, and articles mention that he usually worked assignments in narcotics... in other words he was assigned to infiltrate this group which was not his more usual assignments.


(1,370 posts)
21. Yes
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 09:44 AM
Oct 2013

You characterize this as 'rendering aid':

"Is there a requirement that they render aid at all times"

But that is not really the question. The question is:

"Is there a requirement to stop unlawful acts at all times?"

The answer is yes. A cop, even off duty, is sworn to protect the public and stop little infractions, like say a man getting beat to a pulp.



(556 posts)
22. Interesting if true...
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 09:47 AM
Oct 2013

I'm quite sure that they are allowed discretion as well.

IOW, they don't have to hand out a ticket for jay-walking while off duty. I have no doubt that they will come up with a reason why they didn't/couldn't intervene.


(1,370 posts)
25. I suspect there are different levels of response
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 10:18 AM
Oct 2013

And a violent felony falls into the category of something they are supposed to respond to.


(11,065 posts)
20. If you find a real source then I'll pay attention
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 09:19 AM
Oct 2013

Come on, the New York Post aka Moonie Times is a rag.


(11,065 posts)
33. well good then
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 12:17 PM
Oct 2013

All I wanted was a real source. The NYP is a piece of shit.

If he was part of attacking the vehicle then he's an asswagon. I'm not seeing how he needed to do that as part of preserving his cover when most of the other riders didn't participate in either attacking the SUV or the occupants.


(24,036 posts)
45. The Moonie Times? 1981 called and wants its facts back .....
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 07:48 PM
Oct 2013

You know Rupert Murdoch owns the paper now for the last 25 years


(11,065 posts)
49. So?
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 08:30 PM
Oct 2013

I still call it the Moonie Times because for ages that's what it was called and I happen to like it. Moonies or Murdoch, what's the difference? It's still the pathetic rag it always was. What, you're trying to make the fucking NYP acquire some kind of dignity it never had and still doesn't? It's ridiculous that people here use the NYP or RT or any of the UK rags as legitimate sources. They aren't.


(24,036 posts)
69. Whatever floats your boat old timer. But if youwant younger folks to take you seriously
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 10:56 PM
Oct 2013

Lose the antique nicknames for things
Although I have heard it is hard for old dogs to learn new tricks


(11,065 posts)
74. yeah being in my 40's makes me so ancient and irrelivant
Wed Oct 9, 2013, 12:32 AM
Oct 2013

I should have an "Antique" license plate bolted to my ass and only be allowed out on Sunday afternoons.


(8,747 posts)
29. This just gets worse and worse for the NYPD.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 11:06 AM
Oct 2013

And after all the shit they have pulled under Bloomberg, I feel a good bit of schadenfreude. And I hope some of the shit sticks to Bloomberg.


(7,712 posts)
35. Up to 6 bikers involved in beating of SUV driver, court papers say
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 03:23 PM
Oct 2013

Up to 6 bikers involved in beating of SUV driver, court papers say
By Michael Muskal and Tina Susman

As many as six motorcyclists were involved in the beating of an SUV driver following a wild chase along the west side of Manhattan, according to charges filed when a new suspect was arraigned on Tuesday.

Craig Wright, 29, of Brooklyn, was arraigned on charges including gang assault, assault and unlawful imprisonment and held in lieu of a $150,000 bail bond. He is the fourth motorcyclist to be charged in the attack and the third to be accused of dragging the driver, Alexian Lien, out of his SUV and beating him. Wright is scheduled to return to court on Friday to allow time for the grand jury to look at the charges.

On Sept. 29, Lien, his wife and their 2-year-old child were in a black Range Rover traveling on a west side highway when a motorcyclist slowed down and came in contact with the vehicle. The group slowed down and then Lien sped up the highway with the bikers in pursuit. The SUV ran over at least one motorcyclist, who was injured, according a video of the incident shot by another motorcyclist.

Eventually, a group of motorcyclists caught up with Lien, who left the highway and stopped at an intersection. Motorcyclists in the group attacked the vehicle and, according to police, pull Lien from the SUV and beat him.


(23,973 posts)
41. If this had happened in any other place where a citizen is allowed a firearm protect himself
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 05:39 PM
Oct 2013

there would have been some dead cops lying on the ground.

The use of a deadly force would have been more than justified after Lien could no longer retreat.

Off-duty cops doing criminal acts are criminals and should be treated as such.


(22,298 posts)
42. Did you hear about the one guy who stepped in to stop the attack?
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 05:44 PM
Oct 2013

the thugs were banging on the passenger window & trying to pull her out of the car, saying "You're going to get it too."

I can't believe people are actually siding with these thugs.



(920 posts)
64. It actually had its own thread
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 10:12 PM
Oct 2013

It was posted as an OP either yesterday or this morning--I have no idea where it went though, some threads sink waaaay too fast.


(64,515 posts)
72. That cop who smashed in the back window (where, no doubt, the
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 11:47 PM
Oct 2013

two-year-old was in a car seat and exposed to the flying glass) was also spying undercover on Occupy Wall Street:

A law enforcement source told NBC News that some of Braszczok's duties in the past included undercover work within the Occupy Wall Street movement.

Braszczok participated in protests, attended meetings and lived among protesters during parts of the movement, providing information to the NYPD, the source said. It is unclear how long Braszczok did that work.


According to NBC News he has been charged now for participating in the assault. Good.
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