American Thanksgiving - let me get this straight...

[jazzimov]

OK, so we celebrate that the Pilgrims landed on Plymouth Rock. They were "driven out" because of their heretical Religious Beliefs (which would be considered heretical by most Christians today - indeed, most of Americans today).

These were just average people who had been told of a "promised land", and of those who did not die on the journey most of the survivors died during the first winter. Because they weren't prepared.

So, the Native people - the Wampanoag - took pity on them and taught them how to plant and how not to just survive, but to thrive!

Then, rather than thank the Wampanoag who basically saved their lives, they thanked God for sending the heathen Wampanoag to save them. They invited the Wampanoag to their feast, who graciously accepted the invitation.

And then, the Pilgrims killed the Wampanoag - who took pity on them and saved their lives - in order to take their land.

Have I got that right? Is that what we're celebrating?

Personally, I'd rather celebrate the Wampanoag.

[Nye Bevan]

1. It's just as bad as Columbus Day, really. (nt)

[yeoman6987]

29. Oh Lord

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE get an education. Your embarrassing yourself and I say that as a person who cares about all people on DU.

[LWolf]

44. How ironic. nt

[Marr]

56. You don't know much about Columbus, do you? /nt

[EOTE]

69. Can't be quite as embarrassing as not knowing which version of your/you're to use.

And I'm not quite so sure why holidays celebrating genocide are good things.

[piratefish08]

70. Columbus was a murderous slave trader.

[jaysunb]

2. You could get in a lot of trouble for telling these

kind of truths....careful.

[Jamaal510]

36. For real.

This is slightly OT, but I actually had some problems a while ago here when I posted an article about what Lincoln said and how he really felt about Black folks. The article gave his exact quotes regarding how he openly felt that Blacks are inferior, and how he said he wanted to outlaw slavery mainly to preserve the Union. There was some pretty ugly history that I found out about with America's supposed "Founding Fathers" once I took a course in African American studies at my old school. And don't even get me started on how some of our first few Presidents were slave owners...

[earthside]

3. And people wonder why often liberals ...

... are perceived as killjoys.

[reformist2]

41. +1000.

[William769]

4. Not exactly right

The peace lasted 50 years before things went to hell in a hand basket.

Can't blame the original pilgrims for that (I doubt any were left by then).

[treestar]

54. That's what I wondered

OP makes it sound like the Pilgrims went and killed the Native Americans the next day.

[JoePhilly]

5. Worst part ...

If the events transpired in some other fashion, most of those reading this, would have never been born.

[Dreamer Tatum]

6. Yet people howl about stores being open on Thanksgiving

makes no sense.

[LanternWaste]

7. I think that via the mechanism of acculturation, pretty much every society will collectively celebra

Let's be honest... if we ask ten different people what they're celebrating on any given holiday, we'll most likely receive eleven different answers. But I don't really believe any rational person will celebrate Thanksgiving to commemorate killing Amerindians-- I think the rank and file will celebrate simply because we're together with friends and family, have a few days off from work, and maybe watch a game.

"Have I got that right? Is that what we're celebrating?""
No more than when we hit the local costume parties on Halloween because we are remembering the dead, including saints, martyrs, and all the faithful departed believers; or celebrating the harvest and the coming of winter. I simply go to have fun...



Acculturation is a funny thing in that it prevents over time, high days and holy days from remaining static in both intent and in purpose.

[ScreamingMeemie]

12. Wait...You mean I wasn't dressing up as a NASA astronaut (my favorite costume)

as a kid to scare off evil spirits??

[LanternWaste]

14. And I didn't dress up as a Indiana Jones (still my favorite costume) and drink a wee bit too much...

And I didn't dress up as a Indiana Jones (still my favorite costume) and drink a wee bit too much last month to commemorate fallen saints...

750 years ago though...? Your Astronaut and my Indy would have either gotten us sainted or (more likely) burned (and then we'd have high holy days named after us!!! ("The Celebration of Screaming Waste" or Lantern Meemie? I can dig it!), and we'd be forced to justify celebrating that.

[d_r]

8. you missed a couple of parts

the pilgrims landed in 1620. The Spaniards had introduced European diseases such as small pox and other diseases more than a century earlier. There had also been English fishermen off the coast of what is now the NE US who had traded with the Native Americans living there. Squanto hitched a ride with them to England, then tried to come back but was captured and taken to Spain to be sold as a slave, but he made it back to England. Squanto returned to the new world, and went back to where his old village was. The village was empty because everyone had been wiped out by diseases brought by the Europeans. So when the pilgrims landed, they had the help of English-speaking Squanto and a whole empty village of buildings and cleared fields for planting corn. They also had lots of graves to rob for further equipment.

The pilgrims and Wampanoag signed a peace treaty in 1620 that worked pretty well for the next 50 years or so. The Wampanoags were killed or sold in to slavery in the late 1670s during King Philip's war. The colonists got a chuck taken out of their hide also.

[freshwest]

15. I did not know that. However, I celebrate the myth of Wampanoag generosity.

For most, it's a celebration that is intertwined with the fall bringing in of the harvest, after a spring and summer of labor and hope to survive the winter. And now it's just a holiday when one can hope to be off work with friends and family.

[d_r]

16. I don't think the generosity of the Wampanoag

was a myth. I think they did help the pilgrims survive.

[freshwest]

19. Ah, I didn't mean that. I meant a day of peaceful celebration. And doubtless much embellished by the

Americans to be, as they were still subjects of the Crown. The OP is pointing out that they didn't fare well under colonization, which most or all did not do well as the cultures met.

Despite a cherished and celebrated vision, they failed to merge, which would have been my preference. I have often thought how much different America and the world would be if settlers had shown respect to the way the natives did things.

My kid was upset seeing some of the stories like Pochontas as a child, and said something to the effect of why did Europeans come here and do bad things?

I had to remind him that they were either here to make money, survive or whatever, and there was no way for them to do it in Europe anymore. And that they are our ancestors, so it does no good to hate them.

What a waste, though.

[hfojvt]

23. Pocahontas, though, is sort of a success story

she married an Englishman, went over to England, where she was adored by the nobles, but died at a very young age from smallpox. Not, however, before giving birth to a son, and thereby having hundreds of thousands of white descendants.

[Benton D Struckcheon]

28. The Virginia colony was a little different in intent.

They were there looking for gold. Remember, the Spanish had found fabulous amounts of gold & silver in Mexico and Peru. The English were, at the time Virginia was first settled, hoping to run into the same thing. They were adventurers, and probably as ruthless as the conquistadores.
The Pilgrims up in Massachussetts were a different kettle of fish altogether.

[Jackpine Radical]

52. The word "myth" can have a much deeper meaning

than just "untrue story."

[d_r]

62. got it

[goldent]

33. A holiday when one can hope to be off work with friends and family is just fine with me.

I love Thanksgiving.

[starroute]

17. And it was mainly the Puritans, not the Pilgrims, who turned on the Native Americans

The Pilgrims were a lot wackier than the more mainstream Puritans who started showing up a few years later and got along a lot better with the locals. That's why Roger Williams went to that area when he got kicked out of the Massachusetts Bay Colony and founded Rhode Island. But once the war broke out, relationships deteriorated pretty quickly all the way around.

[Igel]

9. A lot messier than that.

And while the Wampanoag ultimately lost their land, much of it happened as the result of disease prior to the Pilgrims' arrival and other Indians' depredation.

Fighting between the Wamponoag and the Pilgrims, not so much.

As with a lot of things--"smallpox infected blankets", for example--the truth isn't nearly as bad as some need it to be. And in some cases the truth is pretty much lacking in the alternative accounts.

[treestar]

55. I agree; the people of that time did not understand infection

Why the need to insist it was done on purpose?

[Vashta Nerada]

10. They thanked the Native Americans by giving them blankets

infected with smallpox.

Thanksgiving is a horrible "holiday".

[former9thward]

18. No they didn't.

Fake 'history' thrives on the internet.

[RebelOne]

65. Pilgrims did not do that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Fort_Pitt

On June 29, 1763, a week after the siege began, Bouquet was preparing to lead an expedition to relieve Fort Pitt when he received a letter from Amherst making the following proposal: "Could it not be contrived to send the smallpox among the disaffected tribes of Indians? We must on this occasion use every stratagem in our power to reduce them." [1]

Bouquet agreed, writing back to Amherst on July 13, 1763: "I will try to inoculate the bastards with some blankets that may fall into their hands, and take care not to get the disease myself." Amherst responded favorably on July 16, 1763: "You will do well to inoculate the Indians by means of blankets, as well as every other method that can serve to extirpate this execrable race."[2]

[Dorian Gray]

71. The pilgrims did that?

[alphafemale]

11. I pay the historical context no mind.

Being thankful and gathering with loved ones to feast is not a bad thing though.

Not to mention the giant Snoopy balloon.

[HangOnKids]

34. Being Thankful & Gathering With Loved Ones Does Not Require A Holiday

But carry on.....

[Egnever]

37. WTF is wrong with a holiday?

You got some kind of crusade against holidays?

And despite your flippant response yes gathering with loved ones does require a holiday for many.

[pipi_k]

50. You're right in one thing...

it doesn't...or shouldn't...require a holiday.

But it's a whole lot easier to accomplish when a majority of people have the day off.

[Blue_Tires]

13. And karma has punished us

by infecting our airwaves with Dallas Cowboy SCUM ever since...

[JCMach1]

20. Circle of Violence

I am descended from John 'the Martyr' Rogers who was the intellectual father of the 'Pilgrim' movement... He was burned at the stake for heresy by Queen Mary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rogers_%28Bible_editor_and_martyr%29

His descendants helped form the Pilgrims in their exile in the Netherlands and eventually sailed with the Mayflower.

My ancestors didn't stay with the Colony long and left for Long Island when that colony opened-up.

It seems pretty damn rare that people actually learn any true lessons from violence and persecution.

[Recursion]

26. I'm reading "The Barbarous Years" right now

The Separatist exodus to Long Island was a fascinating piece of the story that I had never heard of before.

[JCMach1]

31. For me, it's a complicated mess how I feel about the history...

I had ancestors at both Plymouth and Jamestown and also Chowans, Tuscarorans, Nottoway, and Cherokee... all virtually wiped off the map by the Settlers...

Thanksgiving for me is just a time to reflect on that complicated history, feast, and enjoy the time with my family...

[csziggy]

21. I prefer to celebrate this version of Thanksgiving!

[LiberalEsto]

24. Me too

but for some reason my family members never want to cooperate

[Boom Sound 416]

22. No, you don't have that right

[HangOnKids]

35. If you want to tell someone they are wrong please post some facts as to why

Thanks!

[Boom Sound 416]

40. Try this site

www.google.com

[Recursion]

25. Not really

They landed at an abandoned village because something like 90% of New England's Native American population had died over the preceding 2 decades because of disease and war. They then joined an already-in-progress genocidal war against the Pequot and Wampanoag on the side of the Narragansett.

[valerief]

27. No one leaves a country over religion. It had to be over money. That's the only reason. nt

[Mariana]

38. Sure they do.

http://now.msn.com/gastonguay-family-rescued-at-sea-after-leaving-us-for-religious-reasons

[valerief]

61. You're right!!! Ha! But not en masse. No matter what the lip service is, "groups of people" migrate

for basic needs, not religion.

[Recursion]

48. IDK. Sarah Vowell's book "Wordy Shipmates" was a pretty good exploration of why they left

And, really, it was about religion.

"The Barbarous Years" is a good one too, though it has a more conservative (with a small "c&quot perspective.

[DreamGypsy]

30. Take an Indian to lunch this week! I think Stan Freburg got the facts down truthfully....

...and politically correct. Afterall...WE CAME OVER ON THE MAYFLOWER!

[RobertEarl]

32. It was America's first welfare line

When the whites lined up to eat what the Natives had brought.

You can just imagine the descendents are thinking: Why no immigration policy of closed borders?

[davidpdx]

39. Boycott Thanksgiving, boycott Thanksgiving!

[Decaffeinated]

42. So go ahead and celebrate them...

Where it gets smug and condescending is when you try and ruin it for everyone else...

You got a Columbus day speech prepared? Maybe something about how Jesus wasn't really born on the 25th of December? How about the true racist origins of St. Patrick's day?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

43. A review of this thread shows how

even those who attempt to correct agenda driven history tend to do little more than spin new myths to support their own agendas.

[Tanuki]

45. I'm reading Nathaniel Philbrick's book "Mayflower"

and recommend it to those who want to learn more about this era (from the planning of the trip by the British religious expatriates in Leiden, through the founding of the Plymouth colony, up to
King Philip's War).
http://www.amazon.com/Mayflower-Story-Courage-Community-War/dp/0143111973/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1385039048&sr=8-1&keywords=the+mayflower+book

[Codeine]

46. Modern Thanksgiving has fuck-all to do with history.

It's become an almost entirely context-free celebration of family and friendship, which I think is pretty awesome. Hands-down my favorite holiday.

Bring on the Tofurkey!

[Decaffeinated]

60. You were good until that last word...

Monster...*tsk tsk tsk*

[TBF]

47. It is my least favorite holiday - and my family

is descended from one of those Puritans.

I move right along from Halloween to Christmas. It's not because I enjoy the commercialism of Christmas, because I don't, but I do love the decorations, cookies (yum!), and people being in a generally better mood

[Le Taz Hot]

49. Nah, I celebrate food.

Cooking it and eating it. That's pretty much it.

[pipi_k]

51. Meh...

I celebrate Thanksgiving because it's the one day of the year we can eat 6,000,000 calories and they don't count.


Hey. It's MY myth and I'm sticking to it.

[FatBuddy]

53. the white folks

saw the indigenous peoples as godless savages and heathens. less than human.

[One_Life_To_Give]

57. They had religious Freedom in Amsterdam

The Pilgrims didn't come here just for religious freedom. Only half of them had been living in Amsterdam because of legal troubles over religion. The other half were recruited by the investors to make the group large enough to be viable.

Bottom line they all undertook the voyage for the opportunity to own 100 acres. Something they knew to be impossible for themselves by remaining in Europe.

[snooper2]

58. Does anybody even notice the OP did a drive by?

Wrote some misinformed drivel guaranteed to rile some folks up then sits back and watches LOL


People fall for it every time...

Then somebody like myself has to come along and actually make the whole thread worthwhile to exist on the Intertubes-

Here we go!

[jazzimov]

63. Because I was drinking when I posted it

but I appreciate all the comments and the corrections.

[Robyn66]

59. Our Family

Celebrates Thanksgiving to be thankful about being alive and together. We have had a lot of scary times and lost a lot of people over the last 20 years so we take time to remember and visit with people we don't ordinarily have time to see.

[Capt. Obvious]

64. That's just silly

It's to celebrate gluttony and football.

[pipi_k]

67. Things have come a long way...

from when the Plymouth Pilgrims football team played their first game with a pumpkin and the vendors sold squirrel hotdogs in the stands...

[uppityperson]

66. No. We celebrate the Harvest, thanking mother earth, father sky, god

We thank mother earth and father sky for the food they give us, and god for making mother earth and father sky. In the words of my 4 yr old back when was asked about this holiday.

Many cultures have a Harvest Festival and we do too. Those who try and say it is about the Pilgrims and Indians are trying to co-opt another established festival. THEY may say that is why they celebrate, but the roots are much older and deeper than that.

[NCTraveler]

68. You really think that is what I am celebrating with my family on Thanksgiving? nt.