Regarding the 6-year-old boy and the kissing

[gollygee]

Please answer two questions:

1. Do you understand that this was repeated unwanted kissing, and keeping her from playing with other kids, and that he'd been told not to do it repeatedly;

and

2. Do you think there should be any kind of response at all to #1.


I wouldn't personally use the term "sexual harassment" for this as I'd like to see that word reserved for harassment associated with more mature kinds of sexual impulses, however I think the term "sexual harassment" has turned into a huge red herring. So, for the purposes of this thread, ignore that term and just answer the above questions.

[ZombieHorde]

1. 1. Yes. 2. No.

At six years old, I think a meeting or two with a trained, school councilor would do more to stop the behavior than "discipline."

[gollygee]

2. That would be discipline

being sent to the counselor's office = discipline. That's doing something about it.

[ZombieHorde]

4. The word "discipline" usually involved punishment,

but if you wish to define "discipline" as "doing something," then yes.

[gollygee]

5. The root of "discipline" is "to teach"

as in "disciple"

I should change my OP in case other people read it that way. I didn't intend it that way.

[Xipe Totec]

13. The only thing they've taught that kid is that sex is deviant behavior

Before he even discovers what sex is.

[gollygee]

14. Would you answer my question in the OP?

Thanks!

[Xipe Totec]

17. The questions have already been answered by many. One more opinion does not matter.

My answer is to your point regarding the meaning of the word discipline. As in "to teach".

[gollygee]

20. It is possible to teach boundaries

without teaching that sex is deviant behavior.

And what he did, and what the school wants to stop, isn't by any stretch of the imagination "sex." It's "running around kissing a little girl repeatedly after she says she doesn't want it to happen, and restricting her and who she can play with."

[Xipe Totec]

25. Yes it is possible. But that's not what they did

What they did to that kid is akin to teaching a dog not to pee on the rug by dousing him in gasoline and setting him on fire.

The dog won't pee on the rug, but there's lots of unwanted consequences.

Calling it sexual harassment is stupid.

[gollygee]

26. Wow people didn't read my OP

because I said 1) I wouldn't call it "sexual harassment" and that 2) that term is a red herring in this discussion.

The point is that there was misbehavior, and that misbehavior needs to be addressed. The school tried to address it but the parent was encouraging it by calling it "cute" and claiming they were "boyfriend and girlfriend." IMO I think the suspension was to force her to be a parent.

[Xipe Totec]

28. Wow you didn't read my reply

I read your OP. It's covered with replies. Some I agree with. Some I do not.

I already told you my issue is with your quibble with the word "discipline".

[seabeyond]

29. no. they did not give that to the kid. it was in a file the kid did not see. the mom gave it to

her son. why? as a mom, i would not give it to my son, but i would address the issue in an age appropriate manner. as the school did. they did not tell the kid he was sexually harassing.

and the mom did not buck and tell the kid it was inappropriate. she confirmed his behavior with boys will be boys and the little girl like it.

[Xipe Totec]

33. They put it on his folder as sexual harassment.

How would you react if your kid was accused of sexual harassment?

Oh, don't worry honey, nothing you need to know about. Don't worry that every teacher you have from now on will think you're a perv as soon as they read your folder.

Ever read "The Trial" by Franz Kafka?

[LanternWaste]

35. I imagine my reaction would be predicated on the inconvenience of whether it happened or not

"How would you react if your kid was accused of sexual harassment? "

I imagine my own reaction would be predicated on the inconvenience of whether it happened or not.




Regardless, Kafka's protagonist had no one person (lawyer, counselor, or even parent) explain anything to him, nor did the protagonists engage in the activity multiple times, nor did the protagonist's mother excuse his behavior... nor were the any young female victims consistently telling him to leave her alone. At least that would be in the translation I read, yours may have varied...

[seabeyond]

36. i already thought about it. i already answered. and if need be, i would talk to teachers as kid

in grades expressing what the issue was (if they were not already aware). but, i would have been workign witht he teachers long before it hit this point and there realy would not have been the issue. my post is below. addressing how i, as a parent of two sons, would have felt about it.

i, as a mother of sons,

would not be outraged if they used that to define a particular behavior and it sat in the file. i would not be concerned it was about defining the boy. i would not have flipped out about it. and i would NOT have given it to my son. but, i get that they could have chosen a different way of communicating it in the files. spell the poor behavior out. they did a quick jot using an adult word. i see it no more than that.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4168913

edit. i decided to just copy and paste.

[seabeyond]

6. i used the word discipline with my kids and often told them it was not about punishment but

learning appropriate behavior. we discipline ourselves to walk a line. whatever that may be. i do not see the word discipline as punishment per se. i always separated the two words. and that has nothing to do with anything. just find that interesting cause for whatever reason, that was important to me, raising my kids. i wanted them to know the distinction.

[LanternWaste]

34. Counseling is A, discipline is B.

Counseling is A, discipline is B. However, yes... both A and B are indeed, "doing something about it"

[seabeyond]

3. and when that fails and he continues to corner the girl? what then? nt

[ZombieHorde]

9. I would have a trained, child specialist continue to handle it.

Punishment won't solve anything.

[seabeyond]

18. do you think the mom ought to try, hey son. stop. the girl does not like it... first?

i mean. with a little parental backing, it might have been no more.

i can understand your point if there is some underlying issue. but.... the mom was encouraging the son and validating his behavior.

[ZombieHorde]

43. Ideally, but seems like she won't. nt

[seabeyond]

44. lol. ya. nt

[DevonRex]

7. Yes and Yes.

No matter how old the boy is, he creeped her out by repeatedly kissing her. Not just on the hand. And corralling her so she can't play with other classmates is outright aggression.

Ok, so we aren't allowed to say sexual harassment and I guess false imprisonment is out, too.
False Imprisonment
The illegal confinement of one individual against his or her will by another individual in such a manner as to violate the confined individual's right to be free from restraint of movement.
http://legaldictionary.thefreedictionary.com/False+Imprisonment

ETA: My point is that if he's doing these things at 6 and will not stop when told by the victim and by people in authority, there is a problem. He might be acting out scenes from home and that's not good. He could be a budding criminal. Time to nip it.

[gollygee]

8. I understand the reasoning behind using that term

and I don't want to argue about that because I do understand that people use it to specify that it was behavior related to a crush, and know it isn't about mature sexuality. I would just personally prefer to see it reserved for mature sexual issues I guess because it does just completely change the conversation and get everybody freaking out over that term rather than looking at what he did, which was to repeatedly kiss her when she didn't want it and keep her from playing with other kids. It's like freaking out over that term makes people feel OK about dismissing what happened.

I don't think he's a bad kid. I think his mom has failed to teach him boundaries, and she could have at any time, and she still could now, but instead she's calling it "cute" and therefore encouraging it.

[DevonRex]

11. Or, he could be growing up in an abusive home.

In which case he will need to be evaluated and helped. A line was crossed into abnormal behavior and that comes from somewhere. He could be a victim himself or he could be a witness to victimization and now he's playing the controlling part at school. Or perhaps he has been neglected so that he knows no boundaries.

Children are amazing. They give us clues if we care to follow them. I'm worried as much for him as I am for the girl right now. But, as he gets older I worry about other girls he encounters if he doesn't learn about boundaries, or if he is living in an abusive home.

[seabeyond]

19. true this. nt

[DevonRex]

39. Thanks sea.

[seabeyond]

41. hey... i have been so busy just stating the basic facts over and over and parental responsibility

in all this that though that filtered/flicked in my mind i did not even want to get into that possibility, but it is very real. i saw this behavior with a family of little kids allowed to participate in an adult world that should have been no where near them.

rather sick.

so.... there is that, also. except, he did not cross the line sexually, which is every ones point on the sexual part. kids in that world tend to take it way further.

[Nine]

10. Q #3: Would public response been different if the unwanted kisses had been planted on another BOY?

I say yes.

[Mariana]

45. I believe you're right. nt.

[idwiyo]

12. Yes & Yes

That kid did not stop when he was told to stop. He is old enough to understand "Do not do it again", " That girl doesn't like to be kissed or touched", "Stop doing it".

That little girl is the victim of harassment. Period. Is it sexual harassment? Yes it is, regardless if he understands it or not. He must be kept away from that girl because SHE must have safe environment. How to handle his problem is up to specialists to decide.

His mother is fully responsible for his behaviour. At this point I would slap her with a stiff fine for failure to discipline her child. Judging by her attitude and behaviour I would get appropriate agency involved to figure out how to deal with the problem and her failure to parent her child.

[magical thyme]

15. Yes and Yes.

The suspension was correct, imo. The charge of sexual harassment on his school file was incorrect, imo, and that terminology has been dropped by the school and it will be simply "misconduct."

Plain harassment, breaking the "no unwanted touch" rule, bullying, and misconduct are appropriate terms for his behavior.

He needs to learn to respect other people's boundaries and rights, and to understand that he is not above the rules.

His mother needs to learn that lying to the media about the situation sets an extremely poor example for her son. They need family counseling because something is not right there.

[1awake]

16. Yes... and yes

however I think the term "sexual harassment" has turned into a huge red herring.

This I fully agree with. The boy needs/needed consequences, as well as to be made to understand that what he did was wrong and why (not necessarily the same thing). The little girl was bullied, and should be protected from it happening ever again. Calling it sexual harassment is ridiculous.

[Rex]

21. Yes, clearly he was bullying the girl and getting validation from home for his behavior.

So I would say a class in anti-bullying, the mom should attend too, would be in order. The positive reinforcement at home has to stop or he will continue to harass and bully imo.

[lumberjack_jeff]

22. 1) there are conflicting accounts. 2) yes.

My questions

1) Is the term "sexual harassment" diminished when a 6 year old kissing the hand of a classmate qualifies?
2) When you are asked: "What is an appropriate punishment for sexual harassment?", would your answer encompass anything appropriate for what this first grader did?

Misbehavior should carry consequences and schools should have tools to discipline kids who misbehave.

For all the hue and cry about corporal punishment in schools, the sting of a paddle goes away after a few minutes, but a school record stays with the child until he (perhaps) graduates.

[gollygee]

24. You have misrepresented me twice in two questions.

1. I specifically said that I don't care for the term "sexual harassment" in regard to children. You just read and responded to a post where I said that.

2. I said "respond in any way" and not "punish" and in fact originally said "discipline" but when someone responded that he interpreted "discipline" as "punish", I took out the word "discipline" to avoid confusion, because I just think it should be handled in some way, and not necessarily punishment by any means.

[lumberjack_jeff]

31. Given the choice between a school record identifying a child as a sexual harasser

or being forced to sit in the corner or miss recess or even a swat on the bottom I'd pick the latter. Suspension isn't a punishment, it's an extra vacation day.

Punishment, preferably natural consequences, are an important part of child development.

Education is trading off discipline in younger grades for failure in the later ones.

About that link...

(after observing that 73% of Colorado girls graduate, vs 65% of Boys - or put another way, Boys are 30% more likely to drop out than girls) "The purpose of this exploratory study is to begin to probe what might be called almost half of the dropout problem in Colorado. What makes girls drop out? Conversely, what might work to keep them going to school?

It's great that the educational system can come up with the money to probe the reasons why girls drop out. Their cursory attempts to understand why boys drop out are only so that their comparative sentences make some sense.

When I first saw that link, I thought that the authors were applying some culpability to schools for giving up on boys, but upon reading, I see that on the contrary, they're making the case that boy dropouts have only themselves to blame.

[gollygee]

32. I think the suspension was probably a punishment for the mom

This wasn't a new issue, and she wasn't handling it at all.

[JI7]

23. also there was another boy who was doing the same thing

but he stopped doing it after he was told not to. nothing happened to this boy so it's not like they took one thing that happened and just punished without explaining it.

but i see the parent as the problem . it's too bad there are many on here who think the girl is the problem . they must think what really needs to be done is to teach girls that it's ok for guys to touch and do anything they want to them.

[geek tragedy]

27. yes and yes

The boy's behavior, quite honestly, doesn't disturb me 1/10 as much as his enabling mother's does. She's raising him to be an abusive asshole, hopefully he can overcome her bad parenting.

[backwoodsbob]

30. I'll play

#1:yes

#2:yes

I think if the word sexual harassment hadn't come into play they could have called the child in with mom and this could have been a much more teachable moment.

The moment sexual harassment came into it the whole situation became unwinnable for every side.

[seabeyond]

37. they dealt with this issue, including mom in it well before the note in the file at the time

of suspension. the mom never did address the sons behavior but that it was boys being boys and they were bf, gf.

[backwoodsbob]

42. and as I said

yes the kid deserved punishment up to and including suspension.

When I said a teachable moment i mean get the kid some counseling and deal with this in a way that is appropriate.


The moment the word sexual harassment came into it the whole situation became a clusterfuck

[duffyduff]

38. You don't suspend a kid for something trivial like this.

Some lawsuit-fearing administrator went way overboard on this. This is a SIX-YEAR-OLD, not a sixteen-year-old. It is VERY difficult to teach kids to keep hands and feet to themselves, especially when they are practically BABIES, as these kids are. Primary teachers spend many hours trying to teach the rules about personal space. More hours are spent by teachers trying to teach moderate to severe special education students the same thing. A one time oral statement doesn't cut it with small kids. It has to be repeatedly done and consistently.

End of story. Unlike most around here, I know how schools operate. Most administrators are morons, which is proven by how utterly out-of-hand this got. The school district is now an international laughingstock, and for no damned reason.

Boundary issues are routine in schools, and they are taken care of--internally. They aren't for public consumption.

[gollygee]

40. I think they should have handled it in-house too

One of my daughters actually got in trouble for overdoing a crush on a boy, and it was pretty easily handled.

I think the problem in this case is that they tried to handle it differently but the mom has encouraged it by calling it "cute" and saying they're "boyfriend and girlfriend," so the child is getting mixed messages and hasn't stopped. It's been an ongoing problem. I suspect suspension was probably to punish the mom and get her to stop encouraging it.