I've been an RN for almost 20 years.

[Texasgal]

I work in health care. I believe in science. I believe in medicine.

I once hurt my shoulder falling from a ladder, I went to my PC and he suggested acupuncture. I went through five weeks of twice weekly acupuncture sessions and you know what?

It worked!

No drugs, No injections and most certainly No WOO.

Sometimes natural things work. Just like anything else.

Is this what the discussion is? Or am I off base?

[JaneyVee]

1. I have friends for whom acupuncture has worked incredibly well.

[Orrex]

2. Wait... A blunt force injury got better after just five weeks?

Must be the acupuncture.

[Texasgal]

3. I didn't have to take

any drugs. That was the good thing.

[Orrex]

4. Well, I'm glad that you recovered

Did you investigate the procedure? By what mechanism do you suppose it mitigated your pain?

[Texasgal]

6. Of course I did. I'm an RN.

I read plenty about it, talked to other patients and colleagues. I was in pain for a few weeks while going through my treatments. But after a while my movement started coming back and my pain lessened quite a bit.

I don't think it "cured" me so to speak. I could have done nothing maybe, and have had to take meds. I suppose.

Here's a link that explains it better than I can. http://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/acupuncture/basics/definition/PRC-20020778

[Humanist_Activist]

19. So basically you got a treatment that may have worked like the ultrasonic machine I had used...

but without me having to worry about a potential infection vector.

[dionysus]

141. do you mean a tens unit?

[Humanist_Activist]

192. No, my fiancee had one for her back though, it helped her a lot...

a tens unit has electrodes that stick to your skin and stimulates muscles and relieves pain.

The machine I'm talking about is an ultrasound machines with a smaller handheld device wired to it, they put the gel on my shoulder then slowly rubbed the device, metal side down, over the joint. I used to make jokes asking if its a boy or a girl, even though I'm a guy.

[dionysus]

194. gotcha. i have a tens unit from when i blew a disc. nice little machine.

pro tip: if the electrode cable becomes unplugged, turn the machine OFF before you plug them back in. ouch!

come to think of it I did see an ultrasound unit like you describe when I was in PT.

[Ms. Toad]

177. So even though it uses the same theory

as something you apparently believe works, you get to reject it as woo because you don't like the risks which can be eliminated by taking universal precautions when using it?

[Humanist_Activist]

191. When the risks are unnecessary, then we shouldn't take them, isn't that correct?

I mean, it seems the main argument for alternative therapies is that they are lower risk, then why not take an even lower risk?

And the risks can't be completely eliminated with acupuncture, just reduced.

[Ms. Toad]

199. That is really up to the individual making that decision.

But it is one thing to insist there is no scientific basis for alternative medicine - and quite another to acknowledge there is a basis, but to argue that the risks associated with traditional medicine should be more acceptable than those accepted with alternative medicine.

When universal precautions (including proper sterilization of the tools) are used, the risks are no greater than those associated with any other procedure which passes through the skin (drawing blood, injections, etc.).

Some of those risks also exist with ultrasound or TENS - the equipment may not be cleaned properly between use and may expose the user to virus or bacteria leftover from the previous user; although neither of those penetrate the skin, there is still risk of contamination from the skin itself (otherwise we wouldn't worry so much about hand washing to prevent disease transmission). Additional risks also exist with at least TENS (I'm not trotting off to find my owner's manual at the moment, but I recall warnings about a number of risks listed)

And there are different emotional responses to TENS and acupuncture. (I haven't had ultrasound recently enough for the same purpose - so I can't say). I like the feeling of TENS, which I use regularly, but the tingly electrical feeling creeps some people out. Same thing with the thought/feel of acupuncture needles - although I expect I'd get used to it, the one session I had from a friend was a little mentally unsettling.

If both are effective, the minimal risk of exposure to illness in a properly run facility may not be the only, or the deciding, factor.

[pnwmom]

208. But whether something is woo or not is not connected to whether

there is another procedure or medication that may be slightly safer -- or all new prescription medicines with somewhat higher risk profiles than currently available drugs would be considered woo.

And you know they are not. If they come from big pharma, no one around here calls them woo.

Acupuncture has been shown by dozens of research studies by reputable investigators to relieve pain. Whether it might carry a slightly higher risk than your preferred method has nothing to do with whether it is "woo."



http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/acupuncture-is-worth-a-try-for-chronic-pain-201304016042

Over the years there has been substantial debate about whether acupuncture really works for chronic pain. Research from an international team of experts adds to the evidence that it does provide real relief from common forms of pain. The team pooled the results of 29 studies involving nearly 18,000 participants. Some had acupuncture, some had “sham” acupuncture, and some didn’t have acupuncture at all. Overall, acupuncture relieved pain by about 50%. The results were published in Archives of Internal Medicine.

The study isn’t the last word on the issue, but it is one of the best quality studies to date and has made an impression.

“I think the benefit of acupuncture is clear, and the complications and potential adverse effects of acupuncture are low compared with medication,” says Dr. Lucy Chen, a board-certified anesthesiologist, specialist in pain medicine, and practicing acupuncturist at Harvard-affiliated Massachusetts General Hospital.

[Katashi_itto]

218. I found it worked wonders for chronic hip and lower back pain until I got the hip finally replaced

two weeks ago

[pnwmom]

206. I'm sure you realize that there are many treatments commonly

used by medical doctors even though they don't understand by what mechanism the treatment works.

And I assume you've kept up with current research on acupuncture. The doctors at Harvard have.


http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/acupuncture-is-worth-a-try-for-chronic-pain-201304016042

Over the years there has been substantial debate about whether acupuncture really works for chronic pain. Research from an international team of experts adds to the evidence that it does provide real relief from common forms of pain. The team pooled the results of 29 studies involving nearly 18,000 participants. Some had acupuncture, some had “sham” acupuncture, and some didn’t have acupuncture at all. Overall, acupuncture relieved pain by about 50%. The results were published in Archives of Internal Medicine.

The study isn’t the last word on the issue, but it is one of the best quality studies to date and has made an impression.

“I think the benefit of acupuncture is clear, and the complications and potential adverse effects of acupuncture are low compared with medication,” says Dr. Lucy Chen, a board-certified anesthesiologist, specialist in pain medicine, and practicing acupuncturist at Harvard-affiliated Massachusetts General Hospital.

[tridim]

10. Just shut up and take your Oxycontin like a normal person.

It's the American way!

[MyNameGoesHere]

88. WOO no! Not before we

blast you several times with the here woo-ray machine. Then we send you to a wooalist for wooful examination. Then and only then, or until you have spent the minimum of $5000.00 do you get you oxy.

[RC]

46. I know, right?

Time couldn't have anything to do with it.

[Scootaloo]

185. Yet strangely I was sore for five days after stepping on a nail

I got a tetanus shot and some antibiotics though, so maybe that's why the acupuncture didn't "take"

[NuclearDem]

197. How weird!

The human body doesn't repair itself over time! The qi must have been manipulated by having needles pointed over mythical meridians. That's it.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

5. A few years ago I had trouble with my knee.

I got cortisone shots, which worked temporarily, but the pain got worse, to the point where I was limping noticeably and had trouble climbing stairs. Someone suggested acupuncture, but I was skeptical. Finally, though, I decided to try it, figured I didn't have much to lose, since the knee wasn't getting better. After the first treatment, much to my surprise my knee felt better, and after about six weeks of treatments the pain was gone. I have had no trouble since.

I don't know for sure whether the acupuncture actually worked. Maybe my knee would have got better anyhow, or maybe there was a placebo effect. I know that post hoc, ergo propter hoc is a fallacy, and anecdotal evidence by itself is meaningless. I don't know what to think, since I am as devoutly anti-"woo" as the next person; I have no use for crystals or homeopathy or aromatherapy. I can't definitively say acupuncture works, except that my knee hurt a lot before I tried it, and didn't hurt at all afterwards.

[Texasgal]

8. I'm not into that either.

I'm in health care and I believe in medicine and not snake oil. However, I do believe that there are some things derived naturally that can heal.

I'm with you, I have no idea if I was better or "cured"because of my acupuncture treatments, all I know is that I didn't have to take meds.

[Squinch]

69. There are a lot of well structured double-blind studies out there that support the

effectiveness of acupuncture.

It ain't woo.

[A Simple Game]

116. I'm not trying to be snarky but just wonder how a double-blind study for acupuncture would work? n/t

[HERVEPA]

121. dull needles?

[Squinch]

127. The ones I have seen will choose similar issues: for example, low back pain that is of

duration of more than 6 months and fewer than 9 months that has not responded to physical therapy. There are a lot of those folks out there, so you can get a reasonable number of participants. Give half Acupuncture, give the other half no acupuncture, measure mobility before and after the period of treatment.

When I was getting a masters in a related area 15 years ago, they were beginning to be able to aggregate studies, and there were some that had been going on for a long time, taking a lot of patients over a number of years, so that inter rater reliability was high.

Another interesting "woo" modality that is provably effective according to double-blind studies: Practicing Qi Gong measurably reduces falls in the elderly population who are at the age when falls are a major contributor to fatalities.

Woo rocks!

[A Simple Game]

156. Sorry, that doesn't sound like a double-blind study.

The participants would have to believe they are getting the same treatment. If you stick participant A but not participant B there is no way they don't know they got treated differently.

[Squinch]

161. Passed review at an Ivy league medical school.

It is possible I am forgetting something about the design, but I can't imagine they would have allowed sticking people in a "non-acupuncture" pattern or anything like that. That doesn't seem like it would be ethical.

[A Simple Game]

184. It seems the only way to be double blind would be for all to get what they believed to be the same

treatment.

I suppose that the control, which would have no treatment, could not know they are a control group. And the test group that got the acupuncture could not know they are a test group. But the test group would have to be willing, even seeking the treatment, to have the acupuncture and thus be prone to a placebo effect or at least a bias which would make the trial not valid and certainly not double blind.

Sorry, I still can't see how it can be done as a double blind or even single blind, the procedure is just too intrusive. The participants may not know they are participants but that does not get rid of the placebo effect or the bias. But who knows? I may be missing something.

[laundry_queen]

204. From what I understand

the double blinds with acupuncture had to do with the 'spots' the needles were inserted.

The premise behind acupuncture for pain relief (as my doctor explained to me - yes an MD family physician who was also an acupuncturist) is that there are areas in the body that are connected by nerves and that stimulating a particular nerve will also stimulate the nerves in the area of the injury triggering endorphins thus lessening pain.

So in the double blinds, those who received the 'bogus' therapy simply had needles that were inserted into the 'wrong' spots, so they couldn't know for sure if those spots were valid for the therapy or not.

For the record, I had acupuncture several times from my doctor, who touted all the benefits. It was when I was pregnant and had severe hip pain and was seeing a chiro. My doctor pronounced the chiro as 'woo' and said acupuncture was scientifically proven. So I tried it. It didn't work for my pain, at all. I went back to my chiro and got relief. And then when I went overdue, my doctor wouldn't induce me (prior C-section) but he said he'd done a lot of acupuncture on overdue women and had always had it work within 48 hours of the first treatment. It had NEVER, he reassured me, NOT worked. Never.

Well, I was the first. 3 treatments and not even a contraction. LOLOL. He was so mad he gave me a free session.

So while I'm not a fan of acupuncture, I'm sure it works for some people.

[A Simple Game]

207. That makes sense, thanks. n/t

[freshwest]

82. I've had good experience with acupuncture, chiro and therapeutic massage. Some think such things are

Last edited Mon Jan 6, 2014, 12:33 AM - Edit history (1)

faith based or placebo. I never took that approach.

To me they are just physical therapy, that's all. I've had a lot of physical therapy and drugs given. So much so they damaged my liver, digestion, etc. They only worked on the symptoms, not the cause.

AFAIK, the kind of injuries I have with the pinched nerves cannot be alleviated by drugs. What works best for me is manipulating the body itself.

I can understand the hostility. My aunt, my father's sister died, because instead of seeing an MD, she went to a chiro and my dad was quite bitter about it and decried the quackery. This was over 50 years ago and she was only a few years older than he was.

She had heart disease and the chiro was trying to alleviate gall bladder pain, and she didn't want the surgery as it was back then, it was very rough. I look back on and know she made a huge mistake. She may have had both conditions, but it was the heart trouble that killed her quite abruptly.

My father on the other hand, went the conventional route with heart disease and died 3 years later after spending many thousands of dollars. Because he had a 'pre-existing condition,' he was unable to get insurance, no matter who much he could pay. The doctors had a solution that would save his life, but it was iffy and the cost was going to be astronomical. So he went home to die a few weeks before his 52nd birthday.

If the ACA had been law, he might have lived long enough to retire and I would not be an orphan. He was a believer in science and conventional medicine. His belief did not overcome the reality of the for profit medical business. He worked until the last month before he died, and said nothing. What was there to say, what could he change?

Too many Americans have faced that reality, and many of them on this board. Thus the arrogance and condescension to those not so well situated here, just doesn't sit good with me. Some should remember there is a human being with feelings reading these threads, and they may be hurt, or in my case, unmoved by their strait-laced opinions.

My answer to the complaints on those three kinds of treatments, is that it's a physical therapy -- nothing more and nothing less. I don't have to buy into some faith or healing philosophy to make use of it. I find therapeutic massage to be the most affective.

But I did get relief from a numb foot the doctors had given up on for 30 years. I'd had neurological events so they just wrote it off to that and said to live with the imbalance, etc.

But an acupuncturist hit the right nerve closer to the foot, so in just one session I could feel the sole of that foot, not lose my balance from a spinal injury and never had the problem again. That was 8 years ago.

Guess what?

It wasn't a case of 'the placebo effect' either. Because I had not mentioned the problem to them, I said my lower leg was cramped and painful, which it was, without mentioning the other.

It was a problem my MDs knew well, unable to get an reflex on that leg for 30 years. The acupuncturist hit the right nerve by accident and I've never had the problem since.

Why could this not have been part of my care, or investigated earlier, in my opinion, was competition for dollars and exclusivity.

I don't attempt to sell anyone on ideas for their ailments. The reason I tried the acupuncture - for something else - was because my health insurance company at that time covered chiropractic, acupuncture and therapeutic massage. The TM person it just so happened, was also studying acupuncture.

I had severe mobility problems, so much that it was almost impossible to get up, get down, walk, stand, etc. It was exhausting my concentration to have to literally detail every movement most people take for granted.

So the therapist recommended I go to the Bastyr to try to get some relief. That one brief session was more effective and cheaper than regular PT, from which I was not getting any help.

I'm glad you weighed in on this today with your training and experience.

It's aggravating to read the bashing of DUers desperate enough to seek alternatives. We have members who for no fault of their own, have fallen through the cracks, and are in places that some people have no clue about.

Insulting their attempts to get well does not work, in fact it's more likely to run good liberals off from DU, seeing they are in essence, being bashed for the crime of being poor and without health care. It is no more like a Democrat than cheap shots referring to the elderly as subsisting on cat food. My reply was that was not what they give people at food banks, and the poor and elderly are not stupid, just poor. It's easy to talk down to people, though.

In my case, after I lost my insurance, I didn't quality for any medical help, I just quit and tried to get better on my own and I didn't get better, but I could not afford to pay for doctors. The GOP loves to say that people can get medical care for free, just go to the ER and we know that is a callous, dismissive way of treating the poor and not true. We're not supposed to be throwing people 'under the bus' with this kind of talk.

Now I have insurance again this year and finally been to see doctors and specialists to catch up as many are, from lack of proper medical care. My health is getting better. It is a great thing to have access to the knowledge base of the medical profession.

But I will not put anyone down who tries these things out because they are poor. I've seen posts on DU that, in effect, bash people lacking resources for standard, conventional care. That's why I really support the ACA no matter what, better than nothing, which is just what a lot of sick people had.

I'm glad you got over that, being an RN is a tough job, mentally and at times physically. Your work is very necessary to many people.

.

[Texasgal]

171. Thank you Freshwest

I agree 100% with everything you've said!

Thank you for your post.

[freshwest]

190. Thank you for that. I edited it and thought, 'Golly, it's just too long!' TY for being you! n/t

[Mojorabbit]

36. The big vet schools are doing it

I don't think dogs have the placebo effect but I could be wrong.

[dsc]

47. they would have it to some degree

in that their owners would be less anxious and expect improvement which could calm the dog down leading to improvement.

[homegirl]

167. relief

I have had remarkable results with acupuncture. First time 3 treatments a month for 18 months to relieve knee pain. Followed by one acupuncture treatment 6 days after knee replacement, never took another pain pill.

Everyone who suffers with chronic pain should give acupuncture a chance.

[murielm99]

7. I didn't try acupuncture for my shoulder, but

a massage therapist. I had taken cortisone and muscle relaxers. Nothing helped. I had four sessions with this guy, and I am feeling great. I tried the medical route first, because I believe in science, too. Sometimes other things work better. I am glad acupuncture worked for you!

[ohheckyeah]

28. My sister and I both had frozen

shoulders at the same time. She spent 8 weeks in physical therapy before she got relief, I went to a shiatsu massage therapist 3 times. My treatment hurt more, but it was quicker. I don't denigrate my sister's choice of treatment, nor she mine. Both worked.

[Thirties Child]

170. Why would anyone consider massage therapy woo?

I once had a lot of pain in my upper shoulder. It felt like a muscle was knotted, needed to be unkinked. I chose massage, asked the therapist to go deep. It hurt like hell but it did the job. I can't imagine that anyone would consider working on a tense muscle to be outside the realm of good science.

I tried acupuncture for an arthritic knee. It didn't help, but that doesn't mean it won't help someone else. It depends on the problem and my problem was bone on bone. I'm not sure anything can prevent the pain of bone on bone.

[Logical]

9. And people taking sugar pills think they work in studies? Placebo Effect. n-t

[NutmegYankee]

14. Studies have found it works on pain

Given the nature of pain, any method of relief is good. http://nccam.nih.gov/health/acupuncture/acupuncture-for-pain.htm

[truedelphi]

38. See response number 15, for another wrinkle on the

Matter.

[Logical]

11. I used to go to a chiropractor when my back went out and I was young and stupid....

and I thought it worked. I had a friend tell me my back would get better in 2 or 3 days if I went to the chiropractor or not. The next 3 times I did not go. It got better in the same amount of time.

Saved me a lot of money over the years.

[VanillaRhapsody]

29. I have gone to more than one for slipped discs in my neck. Both times I tried all manner of

traditional relief methods....months and months worth. The one thing that ended up helping...chiropractor. So yeah pulling a muscle in your back can heal on its own. Slipped disc's not so much...and do you know what traditional medicine is offering me now...a CT scan directed injection into my spinal cord....I think I will pass.

[truebluegreen]

12. My beloved dog Charlie suffered a lot from arthritis in his back.

We tried supplements, a couple of cortisone shots, some Shiny! Brand! New! Pilz! that cost $7 a piece. All of them worked, more or less well, for a while and then stopped or seemed to lose their effectiveness.

So on the advice of our vet, we tried acupuncture. Judging from the way my dog capered and pranced when leaving the vet, as contrasted to the way he moved when we arrived, it worked just fine. Lasted several weeks at first, and then at increasing intervals rather than the reverse.

[Thinkingabout]

23. I had acupuncture myself and got immediate relief. My darling Gretchen suffered a pinched nerve

In her neck, three treatments of acupuncture gave her a new lease on life. I think you can fool humans into believing acupuncture helps but I don't think you fool a little dog. I have had acupuncture on my back since and will use it again in the future for pain management.

[Skittles]

42. the vet did the acupuncture?

I did not know they did that

does the pet have to be knocked out?

[irisblue]

202. no, in fact princess pretty paws fell asleep

[Skittles]

203. I'm pretty sure my hairy devil feline would go ape-shit

yes INDEED

[truebluegreen]

211. Yes, she did.

There were 6 vets at the clinic and they were all trained, although the one who took care of Charlie was the most experienced. She actually taught the method.

The dog doesn't need to be knocked out, but does need distraction. A small jar of frozen baby food to lick sufficed for the 20-min treatment. Charlie was an excellent patient, but other dogs may be moving targets.

<a href=".html" target="_blank"><img src="" border="0" alt=" photo 100_0972_zpsbdc3aaf5.jpg"/></a>

[Skittles]

212. interesting

I really do learn something new every day

[truebluegreen]

213. Just ETA a picture...

[homegirl]

243. complying cat

As i left the acupuncturists office I noticed a woman holding a cat on her lap. The acupuncturist came out of her office, approached the woman with the cat, the cat rolled onto her back, raised all four paws in the air and waited for the treatment. Even a supposedly "dumb" animal knows relief when it experiences it.

[truebluegreen]

244. Wow. Charlie always knew also...

although he never had an issue with trips to The Vet's Office. Vets patched him up on a regular basis from an early age and he appreciated it.

[Humanist_Activist]

13. Since when is acupuncture "natural"?

What does natural mean anyways, I had a frozen shoulder and pinched nerve, and physical therapy worked in about the same amount of time as you, so did the ultrasound machine, that fucking thing seemed magical, after physical therapy, I was in a lot of pain, that thing made it tolerable for several hours, sometimes the pain went away completely for a while after a session.

[Texasgal]

15. PT is natural too.

Never said it wasn't.

[Humanist_Activist]

17. No, please define natural.

I'm trying to think about how the hell sticking needles into someone is "natural". Sounds to me like its just a buzzword, marketing speak, for "good" and hence meaningless.

[Texasgal]

20. Kinda like eating prunes

when your bowels are messed up. ??? You know.

Natural, no meds. Have you read anything about acupuncture? It's only a procedure that's been around for thousands of years.

http://www.livescience.com/29494-acupuncture.html

[Humanist_Activist]

22. Argument from tradition? Really? n/t

[Texasgal]

27. why are you so angry?

I never said that I did not believe in modern medicine.

Geez' o peat! Drink a cup of coffee or something.

[Humanist_Activist]

35. Because you are using logical fallacies to support your point...

you know, I could accept that the acupuncture can increase blood flow, or increase endorphin or dopamine levels, hell a lot of things can be done to the body to trigger those things, like my aforementioned ultrasound. Just because it has been practiced for thousands of years doesn't support it, those things I mentioned might, especially if repeatable in a clinical setting. At least you have a potential to know how it works on the human body without invoking magic, look at the post below about the person giving their kid a homeopathic medication, and literally not caring how it works.

[Texasgal]

43. Call that DU'er out and stop being a jerk off to me then.

My experience was not a fallacy. I believe that it worked for me. I am not asking anyone else to go and do it and I am not saying that PT, tinge units or ice packs do not work either.

I'm just saying that modern medicine is not the answer for EVERYTHING.

[Humanist_Activist]

52. Did I say your experience was a fallacy? No I did not.

Indeed, I even conceded that acupuncture could have a positive affect in controlling pain. And perhaps that "modern medicine" you show such contempt for in this post can help provide the same effect without the need for needles(or drugs) at all. Wouldn't that be great? Or are you opposed to testing acupuncture, and improving it, like we do every other medical treatment we have?

[Texasgal]

63. I am not opposed to that at all.

I am not sure where you are getting these words to cram down my throat.

[Humanist_Activist]

72. You are the one who said that modern medicine isn't the answer for everything...

and I would agree, it tells us nothing about the origins of the universe, but it is, through the scientific method, the method to find all the answers to all things medical.

[Texasgal]

78. Do you agree that

eating green leafy vegetables help with many health issues? You know, cholesterol, HBP ocular issues?

Do you believe that a good well rounded diet and exercise increases longevity?

[Humanist_Activist]

80. In general yes, why? That's stuff that has actually been tested in clinical settings as well...

hence the reason why so many doctors advocate for balanced diets and good activity levels, depending on the health and needs of patients.

Is there something I'm missing here? This is well established science.

As far as the more specific stuff, some of it has been clinically tested, some haven't, do you have an argument here?

[Texasgal]

83. You haven't read much up on accupunture then.

That's what's missing. There has been many studies. Check out the links that have been provided through out this thread.

[Humanist_Activist]

90. Did I claim there weren't? I've already conceded that it can be effective...

and yes there are links to clinical studies showing that. That's great, then it should be integrated(and improved upon) by modern medicine so the underlying affects on the human body can be replicated for those who fear needles(like my dad), and so it can be made safer than traditional acupuncture.

[Texasgal]

92. Do you have the stats on people

that die after receiving acupuncture treatments?

Just curious, I'd like to see that. No snark. serious.

[Orrex]

95. Here

http://edzardernst.com/2013/02/how-many-fatalities-has-acupuncture-caused-and-are-acupuncturists-in-denial/

Of course, the question is a red herring. Since it's a non-invasive, topical procedure, you might as well ask how may people have died getting their nails painted.

The better question is this: how many people have been unambiguously shown to have benefited specifically from acupuncture as opposed to other concurrent treatments or by the simple expedient of healing over time?

[Humanist_Activist]

98. I've heard of acupuncturists who punch needles too deep, use improper sterilization techniques, etc.

Its still sticking needles into skin, despite the size, its a risk, and accidents have happened before.

http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/88/12/BLT-10-076737-table-T1.html

I'm not saying its a huge risk, but no medical treatment is without risk.

ON EDIT: Chiropractic has issues related to back and neck spinal injuries that it has been linked too, and there are some studies suggesting that rough neck manipulation may lead to increased risk of stroke by causing small tears in some arteries in the neck. Nothing we do medically, no manipulation to human bodies is without risk.

[Texasgal]

114. This is true.

However, studies show that alot of people die or have ailments due to opiates and anti-inflammatory meds. too.

That's why I am saying that it is never a bad idea to try alternatives every now and then. PT, excerisize... acupuncture. I fail to see why anyone things this is not a good idea for some people.

And as far as infection rate, step into a hospital lately? I should know quite well. I work in a surgical setting. Infection is a huge problem for everyone!

[LisaLynne]

16. No everything that is not hard-core medical industry whatever is

the same as eating rhino horn, apparently.

[mahina]

18. My hot screaming baby found that Hyland's teething tablets worked.

They always worked, and nothing else did.

Can't be a placebo effect when he had no words, expectation, language at all. It wasn't a coincidence because it happened every time.

I am sure that 99% of what's on the shelves is ineffective, but I can tell you that Hyland's homeopathic teething tablets definitely work. Don't know why, don't care.

[Humanist_Activist]

21. "Don't know why, don't care." This I simply do not understand...

Do you not care enough to know what you are giving your baby, or how it works in their body?

I honestly don't understand people who are gleefully and willfully ignorant? Don't you want to know how it works?

[Th1onein]

40. Why aren't you curious as to how acupuncture works?

Hmmmm? Do you just chalk it up to "woo" and move on? I would say that that is a distinctly unscientific attitude.

[Humanist_Activist]

41. Did you read some of my posts above? I guess not. n/t

[Th1onein]

45. I read them all. Every single one of them.

[Humanist_Activist]

54. So, you concede that your post to me was a false accusation? n/t

[Th1onein]

151. Not at all.

I don't understand why you would think that.

[BlueCaliDem]

91. I have. And they're mean, angry, and wholly uncompromising in any way.

It's as if you're only out itching for a fight with everyone. Jesus H. Christ what a grouch.

And for that (I should've done this months ago) you've earned Ignore Status.

Arriverderci.

[mahina]

44. It was given to me as a gift. When I saw the contents, I remember thinking

"over my dead body." It contained belladonna, though in a very small amount.

It sat untouched until the last 3:30 am screaming miserable crying sleepless moment that I finally picked up the bottle, opened it, and gave him one tablet.

It worked.

I am not a chemist, not a physician, not a nurse as the OP is. I am not an ignorant person.
I have studied with some scientists whose names I am sure you are know, including John Holdren. None of my work was in anything related to medicine of any kind.

In that moment, I tried them, and they worked. I do not know why, or how, but they did. Judge me if it makes you feel good about yourself. You don't know anything about me.

[SidDithers]

96. It didn't contain belladona...

it contained the "memory" of belladona.

A 12X dilution of belladona, like that in Hylands Teething Tablets, is 10000 times more dilute than the allowable concentration of arsenic in drinking water.

Sid

[mahina]

55. And thanks for the ad hominem attack.

You called me gleefully and willfully ignorant.

I don't spend the limited time that I have to use on DU to be condescended to and insulted.

Bye now.

[Humanist_Activist]

62. But you are gleefully and willfully ignorant, you said so yourself...

ignorant is being used literally here, not as an insult. I'm ignorant of many things, and when found ignorant, I try to correct that lack of knowledge. I don't understand the mindset you display, that is all.

[Tumbulu]

165. Oh good grief, this again???!

Babies all over the place are saved from a lot of Tylenol thanks to homeopathic remedies. And this is darn important.

I could care less if you understand how or why it works. That it works is all that matters.

First attacking famous horse trainers now it's mom's of colicky babies. Goodness!

[etherealtruth]

25. When did you use Hylands Homeopathic Teething tablets?

http://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/ucm230762.htm
What action is FDA taking?

On October 23, 2010, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) warned consumers to stop using and discard Hyland’s Teething Tablets. The manufacturer is recalling this product.
Why is FDA taking this action?

FDA is issuing this warning because the use of Hyland’s Teething Tablets may pose a risk to children. FDA analysis and testing identified some Hyland’s Teething Tablets that contained varying amounts of belladonna, a potentially toxic ingredient. FDA has received reports of serious adverse events in children taking this product that are consistent with belladonna toxicity. An ongoing FDA inspection at the manufacturer indicates substandard control of the manufacturing operation.

FDA has also received reports of children who consumed more tablets than recommended, because the containers do not have child resistant caps.
What product is affected by this warning?

FDA is warning consumers about all lots of Hyland’s Teething Tablets. This product is widely sold in pharmacies, other retail stores, and on the Internet as an over-the-counter (OTC) homeopathic drug intended to provide temporary relief of symptoms related to teething in children.


Here is some info about Belladonna: http://www.drugs.com/mtm/belladonna.html

[mahina]

49. Long enough ago not to worry about a recall.

Thank you for the information.

[etherealtruth]

53. Oh good

[Warren Stupidity]

107. Basically the little kids were tripping their brains out, no wonder it worked.

[mahina]

108. Trust you have some personal experience to share.

Mine was not.

I'm interested to hear about yours.

[Warren Stupidity]

229. noo... a little research, even then in the 60's way before wikipedia

made it clear that belladonna was not to be fucked with. Other plant substances, like morning glory seeds, were relatively safe and did produce a mild buzz (before the feds put a stop to it of course.)

[etherealtruth]

110. I know

I wanted my post to be fairly neutral ... hoping some of the information would be read ... further hoping that someone would say "Do I really want to give this to my baby?"

[mahina]

126. I read it, but find the two anti-homeopathic arguments contradictory.

If minute concentrations of a substance can't have any impact, how can it be a danger?

We are talking about 0.0000000000003%, according to the Hyland's website, http://www.hylandsbaby.com/product/teething-tablets-2/

My son survived somehow.

I did question it as I mentioned earlier. Nothing like sleep deprivation and screaming to make you consider your options. Plan B was anbesol, which definitely did not work.

Hyland's teething tablets are very much appreciated by people who need them, and are back on the market. Whatever problems may have existed are resolved, apparently.

When I needed them, there was no internet to look them up ON, at least not for us civilians.
I made my decision based on the experiences of my network and trial and error to that point.

If I had another baby now, I would use it again.

[etherealtruth]

136. the supplement industry isn't regulated like the drug industry is

In most supplements there isn't a way for the consumer to be sure what is actually in the supplement and in what quantities. luckily the FDA stepped in (arising from consumer complaints and sick babies) and recalled the supplement. It is reportedly back on the market.

I would be very hesitant to give something containing belladonna (in amounts unknown and unregulated) to one of my children. I have had three and I know how desperately a parent wants to give relief to their baby ... but, looking at how unregulated the supplement industry is (and this is considered a supplement) I wouldn't consider giving these things to my kids when they were young.

I realize that it is personal choice, I am simply stating what my choice has been.

I am editing my post to add this link:http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2011/05/beware-of-unregulated-dietary-supplements/index.htm

The information at the link 9and many others) highlights the problems with supplements and the particular dangers to children

[Whisp]

24. I've cured or eased headaches by using reflexology pressure points

I suppose that is similar to acupuncture and why that works.

There is a certain path you follow around your eye sockets, up the middle of your forehead and down the top of your head until you hit your neck applying pressure with your fingers and moving to the next point about an inch or less apart.

It really, really worked. From a book.

[elias7]

26. Is acupuncture natural?

It's yet another effective modality of healing, not natural or unnatural.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

30. I agree. Sometimes natural things work, and sometimes prescription medication works

It makes me nuts when I hear people defend medications as if these worked all the time, which is not only wrong, but medications sometimes not only don't work, but they do harm, and kill.

I had developed trigeminal neuralgia after having dental work. I thought I was going to go insane, the pain was so intense that I couldn't think, couldn't function, couldn't anything. I've never before experienced pain that horrible. Prescription pain medication helped only a little bit, but it would return to the excrutiating intensity, and I'd end up having to swallow more prescription medication, which made me sick to my stomach, and never helped it long term. Then I drove past an acupuncture clinic in Miami, and thought I'd give acupuncture a try as a last resort, but imagining that it, like the prescription medication, would not work. Boy was I surprised. From the 1st treatment it began to work, and I haven't had trigeminal neuralgia since. Placebo effect it was not, since I was one of those people who had been convinced by allopathic medicine proponents that if a treatment doesn't come from an M.D., it's pure quackery. Yet it did work, which is why I no longer think that way.

Having had the experience with the trigeminal neuralgia, I subsequently tried it for back pain, and although it did not eliminate it completely, it did help it a lot.

[renate]

210. my sister had trigeminal neuralgia and took the prescription medication for a few years

She still carries it with her everywhere in case of problems, because the pain is awful and she doesn't want to take a chance of experiencing it again, but after trying craniosacral therapy for a while she decided to try to wean herself off the medication. Her therapist was really good about showing her how to do jaw exercises and manipulations; again, she will always have the medication at hand, but she's gotten herself off it for a few months with no exacerbations. Yeah, woo. I mean, yay woo. There's no reason not to take advantage of alternative treatments as well as Western medicine. It's only in the imagination of some people here that the two are opposed rather than complimentary.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

241. Exactly. Some people feel that they have to defend prescription meds...

and attack natural healing. Fact is, prescription meds kills many, but they don't want to discuss that. Fact also is that many natural methods are healing, and they don't want to discuss that either.

[MindPilot]

31. I fell down the stairs last year and suffered a very bad ankle sprain.

I went to the ER, xrays showed no break so the Dr fitted me with one of those boots to immobilize my foot. That thing must have some kind of magic healing field because after wearing it for just three weeks I could walk normally. Completely cured by the magic cocktail of plastic, foam, aluminum and Velcro!

[Texasgal]

34. I am so glad to hear that!

Atleast you didn't have to take a bunch of drugs.

[MindPilot]

50. Yeah, they gave me some pain pills which didn't do much.

I think I took two, but they made me feel so crappy, enduring the pain was the lesser of two evils.

[John1956PA]

32. It would be wise to get a CT scan to rule out rotator cuff tears.

If a partial tear exists, it might not be painful. However, it could lead to a total tear which is difficult to repair.

Best wishes for continued favorable results.

[Texasgal]

37. I'm well aware.

It's been almost 7 years however and I seem to be just fine. Thank you for the reply.

[Thinkingabout]

33. It is amazing when you share a story of success there are post which sounds RW.

Guess some just does not seek good. Enjoyed you post on acupuncture, it is a good friend to me. I am not able to take certain meds for pain because of ITP so I get relief from acupuncture.

[Texasgal]

39. I know... it's weird.

I would think that people would be interested and not just out right pissed off that something actually worked not drugs or modern medicine!

I even premised my post by saying that I believe in science and medicine. Geez.

Thank you for the post!

[Orrex]

51. It's amazing that you equate science advocacy with RW.

Which Right wing are you talking about? Have you read or seen any of their platform? If there's one thing they hate more than women and minorities, it's science.

[Thinkingabout]

60. When a post is styled in the RW fashion. Sounds like FAUX noose.

[Orrex]

64. What post are you talking about?

[Thinkingabout]

74. My response to texasgal was in general, from her answer she understood what I was saying.

[Orrex]

77. So... It's a call-out without the courage to call anyone out.

[Thinkingabout]

99. what is the problem? are you having a bad day? i dont like RW post.

Look, its Texas talk in my response.

[Orrex]

100. You haven't identified a RW post.

The problem is that you made an accusation without backing it up.

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

[Thinkingabout]

103. Do you know about colloquialism?

[Orrex]

106. So, there isn't actually a RW post, and you were simply flinging accusations.

Fair enough. Why not just admit that outright?

[Thinkingabout]

112. No I will not admit there are not any RW post here, why are you trying to get me to agree either way

What is your problem, you are sounding angry, I made a response and you have jumped in for whatever reason and you still don't understand, I can't help you.

[Orrex]

118. Nope. Not angry at all--you're attempting a lame rhetorical distraction.

Your intent is to distract from the point at hand--that you have made an accusation that you have failed to support. By accusing me of anger, your intent is to make me defend against that accusation, in exactly the same way that the accusation of "outrage" is used against women from the HoF group. Since I am not angry, I have no need to defend against that charge.

It is curious, however, that you mistake a call for citation as evidence of anger, just as it is curious that you mistake science advocacy for Rightwing posting style.

[Thinkingabout]

134. The answer to you is the same, you can accuse me of whatever makes your heart happy.

BTW, since the RW thing seems to have gotten your ire up are you RW?

[Orrex]

137. I've accused you only of lacking the courage to back up your own accusations

And I have pointed out the lame rhetorical tactics that you've attempted to use.


I am not Right wing. Are you?
You certainly use the kind of lame rhetorical tactics popular among that crowd.

[Thinkingabout]

147. You know, your dog don't hunt.

[Orrex]

150. I'm surprised you didn't accuse my dog of being RW.

[Thinkingabout]

163. It's Texan talk

[Orrex]

164. Big fans of baseless accusations in Texas, are they?

Must be that "swagger" I've heard so much about.

[Texasgal]

173. So pleasant you are.

What a dear!

[truebluegreen]

214. Bless his heart.

[freshwest]

172. That's a great Texan expression. Love the Ann Richards avatar. Wendy for Governor!! n/t

[Thinkingabout]

176. I feel sorry for some, isn't it great to live in Texas? I still love the state, doesn't matter

What color the state might be. Ann Richards was great, loved to listen to her speak, one of her greatest was "Poor George".

I will be pulling and working for Wendy. GOTV!

[freshwest]

182. I don't live there anymore, but for a time it was the best! GOTV! n/t

[mike_c]

48. acupuncture is an excellent example of the conflict between woo and non-woo....

Objectively, there is evidence of therapeutic efficacy, at least for some treatments. That's real, even if poorly understood.

The traditional basis for acupuncture, all that stuff about chi for instance, that practitioners still have to learn today, is utter woo.

[Humanist_Activist]

57. Same for some Chiropractic practices, certain types of massages, etc.

many of the underlying principles are completely bonkers, or impossible, the effects on the human body, though, can be quite real, and quite positive.

[Marrah_G]

56. I wish I knew where to stick the needle to remove the nastiness from this thread

I don't care if you like woo, hate woo, are indifferent to woo. Why the assholish behavior towards others in this thread? Did someone forget to teach you civility towards others?

Note: not directed at the OP, directed at people throughout this thread.

[druidity33]

113. Hear here! Exactly. K&R, nt.

[X_Digger]

58. I put tiger repellent on every day, and I haven't been attacked. It works!

In other news..

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/acupuncture-doesnt-work/

[freshwest]

181. I went for the strawberry after trying to escape the tigers. You decide what happened:

The Tigers and the Strawberry

There was a man walking across an open field, when suddenly a tiger appeared and began to give chase. The man began to run, but the tiger was closing in. As he approached a cliff at the edge of the field, the man grabbed a vine and jumped over the cliff.

Holding on as tight as he could, he looked up and saw the angry tiger prowling out of range ten feet above him. He looked down. In the gully below, there were two tigers also angry and prowling. He had to wait it out.

He looked up again and saw that two mice, one white, the other black, had come out of the bushes and had begun gnawing on the vine, his lifeline. As they chewed the vine thinner and thinner, he knew that he could break at any time. Then, he saw a single strawberry growing just an arms length away.

Holding the vine with one hand, he reached out, picked the strawberry, and put it in his mouth. It was delicious.

https://workingwithinsight.wordpress.com/2006/08/29/the-tigers-and-the-strawberry-story/

Just one of several Zen stories I read years ago. Story of my life at times. Life is short, anyway.

[whistler162]

59. You should lose your license

and paraded through the hospital along with a drummer doing a slow drum beat. At the door of the hospital you lapel watch should be removed and broken over the knee of the head nurse.

[Warpy]

61. Acupuncture can work

I'm the biggest skeptic out there but the day I went in for an evaluation, the elderly Chinese doc took one look at me and jammed a spike into my left ear and said he'd talk to me in 15 minutes.

I had a migraine but had struggled to keep the appointment. In 10 minutes that bastard was gone and with no post migraine fogginess that I usually have for a few hours.

I found it very successful on acute pain, less successful on the chronic pain. Others find the opposite is true.

It works on the same principle as the TENS unit I use for my back does, by scrambling pain signals.

The only controversy seems to be between the Chinese system of meridians and random dry needling. Both provoke the same response via fMRI and PET scans.

[Notafraidtoo]

209. Good response

Like you i am a huge skeptic and very trusting of Scientific consensus, my biggest issues with these type of therapy is the magic elements they add to the teaching of the practice, hard to trust people that believe in magic but its nice that it can work in a scientific way too.

[pangaia]

66. I am a bit surprised that there comments here saying

or inferring that "I believe in science." or "I believe in medicine."
I am curious what you think acupuncture is? It IS science and it IS medicine.

The Chinese figured out acupuncture at least 2000 years ago.
It is like any treatment..every treatment doesn't necessarily work for everything.
And, as with any medical treatment, one should always seek out a highly competent practitioner.

[Texasgal]

68. why the surpise?

Look at many of the responses... alot of people think it's woo.

[pangaia]

71. Thanks TEX.

Now, the DUMBEST question on the intertubes. Please don't laugh at me. OK? promise?
Can I trust you? I think so
I've seen woo all over these day. What the heck is woo?
Ssssshhhhhh don't tell.

[freshwest]

175. Whatever it is, it's not as much fun as pitching woo. n/t

[Humanist_Activist]

70. I would say they stumbled upon it through trial and error...

the underlying idea behind acupuncture, and what the traditional Chinese thought was happening is complete bunk. Doesn't discount the results though, that's why it can be supported by evidence.

[Orrex]

89. Citation, please.

Please document your claim that "The Chinese figured out acupuncture at least 2000 years ago."

We're not talking about a vague reference to a thick needle jabbed into skin; your claim demands that the Chinese had established this practice in recognizable form two millennia ago, long before they had the technology to make the fine-diameter needles used in acupuncture.

If you don't have a specific and verifiable source, then we might as well agree that western medicine was established millennia ago as well, when someone applied direct pressure to a wound or figured out how to set a bone.

[X_Digger]

159. Here's an interesting read

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/acupuncture-and-history-the-ancient-therapy-thats-been-around-for-several-decades/

What’s maddening about the acupuncture longevity myth is that it isn’t true, and demonstrably so. In human medicine, “needling” was illustrated in the 17th century by western observers: no points, no “meridians,” just a big awl-like “needle,” driven in with an ivory-handled circular hammer. In addition, the rationale for hammering these little spikes into various spots (of the practitioner’s choosing) was said to be “exactly the same” as Greek humoral medicine (see, Carruba, RW, Bowers, JZ. The Western World’s First Detailed Treatise on Acupuncture: Willem ten Rhijne’s De Acupunctura. J Hist Med Allied Sci (1974) XXIX (4): 371-398).

The same fallacious assertion is repeated (repeatedly) in veterinary medicine. Acupuncture proponents may assert, for example, that acupuncture is “4,000 years old.” While the assertion isn’t true, it’s also ridiculous, since the Chinese hadn’t invented writing 4,000 years ago. Even if the assertion were true, there would be no way to possibly know about it, since no one could have written anything down about the practice.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/acupuncture-doesnt-work/

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-forefather-of-acupuncture-energetics-a-charlatan/

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/acupuncture-anesthesia-a-proclamation-of-chairman-mao-part-i/

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/acupuncture-anesthesia-a-proclamation-from-chairman-mao-part-ii/

[Bernardo de La Paz]

67. "It worked" and some things just get better themselves, which is why

Anecdotal evidence is only indicative.

One needs to run studies where there is placebo treatment (hard to design for shoulder injuries) as well as acupuncture and "drugs" or other what-not to get at just how much and under what circumstances.

Some things just cure themselves, especially if they are "treated" by something that is essentially a placebo.

See the knee "surgery" study where people who got fake arthroscopic surgery did better than those who had the real thing.

Even so, acupuncture has accumulated some credible scientific evidence that it is effective (to some degree) for some things.

[bhikkhu]

102. My thoughts exactly

I've had a variety of injuries in my 50 years, and the great majority of them "just got better" within 5 weeks or so. Without medical attention or woo.

[Vashta Nerada]

73. Anecdotal evidence does not equal scientific evidence.

Now, if 1,000 people had the same exact injury, and 950 of them had the same outcome you had, then it might be significant.

Besides, you bumped your shoulder. Of course it'll get better within five weeks.

Must've been the acupuncture.



One cannot "believe" in science. Science is science and it works because the results were replicated again and again.

[darkangel218]

76. You're unfuking believable.

[Vashta Nerada]

123. Aren't nurses supposed to know that?

Time heals wounds.

[darkangel218]

130. Its about time i block you.

Have a nice life.

[Vashta Nerada]

132. Have a nice vacation starting tomorrow.

[darkangel218]

133. Good luck on DU.

You're gonna need it.

[840high]

153. You're not a happy person.

[tammywammy]

131. I'm curious, what exactly in that post is "unfuking believable"? n/t

[Quixote1818]

169. I was thinking the same thing. nt

[jeff47]

179. The basis of medicine is unfucking believable?

Good to know.

Little tip: Studies have shown that acupuncture is equally effective if the practitioner has been trained or not. You could save yourself a few $$ by having a random friend stick you with needles.

[Tanuki]

75. Acupuncture alleviates pain by triggering endorphin production.

This has been shown repeatedly in research going back a good 30 years. for example:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15135942

[bhikkhu]

105. Pain relief is important, but it doesn't cause healing

In so many cases "woo" is something which has a perfectly valid use, but then is stretched out of all proportion by people who want to believe in miracles, panaceas, cure-alls.

[Matariki]

79. I frankly don't get calling a whole other culture's medicine 'woo'.

Chinese medicine has been around a long time. Lots of folks benefit from it. Lumping everything you don't like or understand together and calling it names just seems ignorant.

[Humanist_Activist]

84. Just like western folk medicine, it should be tested for effectiveness and safety, the stuff that...

works can be integrated into modern medical practices, the stuff that doesn't should be discarded.

[Squinch]

135. Acupuncture has been pretty extensively tested for safety and effectiveness

within the US medical community. Quite a bit more than many drugs that pharmaceutical companies push.

[jeff47]

180. Problem is they found it's equally effective when the person sticking in the needles

has not been trained in where to put them.

The woo is not that sticking someone with needles make them think they're receiving treatment. The woo is the stories used to justify where to put the needles.

[LiberalEsto]

81. I used to need cortisone shots in my lower spine 2 or 3 times a year forlow back pain

But my gynecologist found that scans showed the cortisone was affecting my bone density. So I went to an acupuncturist for about 5 weeks. That was several years ago and I have not needed a single cortisone injection since the acupuncture.

After that I kept going to the acupuncturist in order to lose weight, since that was affecting my back. She helped me lose 23 pounds without dieting, and I have kept almost all of it off ever since.

[Curmudgeoness]

85. Is acupuncture covered by insurance?

I have never been inclined to try it, but then again, I have never had a doctor suggest it. There have been times that I have been willing to try anything....like a rotator cuff problem that a steroid shot helped. But if that would not have worked, I would have gone to a voodoo doctor.

[Texasgal]

87. Yes.

Alot of insurance does cover it now days.

[Cleita]

86. Acupuncture is mainstream medicine in many parts of Asia.

We in the western world are very arrogant to think we have all the answers.

[Orrex]

97. Red herring. No one is claiming that western medicine has all the answers.

The assertion--and it's a correct assertion--is that acupuncture has never been empirically demonstrated to function as advertised.

[Cleita]

104. Well, then shouldn't all you science whizzes be

setting up studies to prove or disprove why it does or doesn't work instead of just dismissing it as not being empirically proven? I have known many people who have had positive results from it as they have from Chinese herbs. Isn't it time to empirically put all this anecdotal evidence to the test?

[Orrex]

109. It is up to the claimant to verify the claim

To suggest that science must seek out and disprove every crazy theory out there is to misunderstand how the process works.

It is up to the advocates of acupuncture to demonstrate that it works in a clinical, reproducible format. These findings can then be tested by independent researchers, and if they are reproduced, then this lends credibility to the claim that acupuncture works as advertised. If the results can't be reproduced (as was famously the case with the "cold fusion" process in the late 80s) then the procedure can't be claimed to work as advertised.

[Cleita]

115. Then you can't dismiss such a practice without proof that it

doesn't work. Better to say that you believe it doesn't work but there is no way you know for sure because without that empirical evidence you can make that statement truthfully.

[Orrex]

122. I can state with confidence that qi has never been empirically shown to exist

Therefore, any practice based on qi (or its equivalent "energies" prana, chi, etc.) is based on magical thinking.

Acupuncture either works as advertised (i.e., by affecting the flow of qi in the body) or it does not. My belief is irrelevant, as is yours.

[Texasgal]

124. Changing up the verbage to disagree with?

Really?

[Orrex]

129. You work in medicine? Really?

And you don't make even a token effort to apply rational, scientific thinking to your experience with acupuncture?
Instead, you throw up your hands and say "some things just work." Are your patients aware of this devil-may-care attitude?


This post clearly indicates that acupuncture works by affecting the flow of qi in the body. If we are not permitted to discuss acupuncture in its own terms, then what, exactly are we discussing?

[Texasgal]

138. Proud surgical nurse here.

I take care of your friends and family. Hope you enjoyed that JAB.

[Orrex]

144. Be sure to tell them that you don't care how medicine does or doesn't work.

Seems like an appropriate disclosure before they go under the knife.

[Texasgal]

155. I love DU'ers like you.

Just the best this website has to offer.

Toodles... go kick a dog now.

[Orrex]

162. Replying to your own post? Well, self-love is important.

Just be discrete about it. And you probably shouldn't involve your dog.

[Cleita]

142. Maybe it doesn't work that way but seems to work nonetheless.

Aren't you curious as to why?

[Orrex]

149. To an extent, yes.

Acupuncture has not been convincingly demonstrated to be more effective than placebo or massage. To the extent that it is able to mitigate pain, I say sure. Let's study it.

But the magical claim that it can alter the body's qi must either be demonstrated or abandoned. Similarly, the outright false claims that acupuncture can cure infections, allergies, sleep apnea, and the like must also be demonstrated or abandoned.


Still, it is up to the claimant to support the claim.

[NuclearDem]

200. It works because people are told it works.

This is called the placebo effect.

It also does trigger the release of chemicals throughout the body, but your brain is bound to make that happen when someone is poking you with sharp things.

[Cleita]

231. And why is the placebo effect a bad thing?

Some medical opinion is beginning to become aware of the fact that the placebo effect or power of suggestion to effect a cure is as good as any other medical cure.

[ancianita]

93. Hospitalized in the 70's, I asked about acupuncture; the doctors ALL guffawed, called me and the

use of acupuncture WOO. Now I've learned that time heals all woos. Well, almost.

[Mopar151]

94. I'm one of those dreadful fact-based humanoids.

A lot of "alternate" therapies - acupuncture, massage, trigger point massage, and others - can be replicated when studied, and, when investigated, have a sound scientific basis. These, IMHO, ain't "woo-woo".

Laetrile, homeopathy, reiki, Scientology - now there's some "WOO-WOO"!!!!!

[Cleita]

120. I was very skeptical of trigger point massage myself but it seems to

have some merit from what I have observed and from having it performed on me as a demonstration.

[BlueCaliDem]

101. Acupuncture has been around for thousands of years.

Does anyone think that if it was "woo", it would've lasted this long, since the Bronze Age?

How long has acupuncture been around?

Acupuncture pre-dates Western medicine.

Though it's thought that acupuncture was practiced as early as 10,000 BC, the oldest physical evidence for acupuncture are hieroglyphs and pictographs that date to the Shang Dynasty, 1600-1100 BC. The oldest written book on acupuncture, Nei Jing (The Yellow Emperor's Classic on Internal Medicine), was compiled in the 3rd century BC. Sharpened stones or bone were used as needles until metallurgy made finer needles possible during the 2nd century BC.

Acupuncture has been widely practiced in Asia ever since, and is rapidly gaining mainstream recognition in western cultures today, including endorsements by the US National Institutes of Health, the UK's National Health Service, and the United Nations' World Health Organization.

*snip*

How does acupuncture work?

Acupuncture works by stimulating the body's natural ability to heal itself.

Traditional Chinese Medicine says that many functions of the body are governed by 12 well-studied energy meridians. Health issues can arise when this energy, or qi, is blocked at an acu-point along a meridian. Acupuncture helps to move this stagnant qi, returning the body to its natural state.

Acupuncture views the body holistically, as a unit composed of elements that interact synergystically to provide physical and mental well-being.

Unlike Western medicine, Traditional Chinese Medicine does not rely on invasive surgical procedures or chemical-based pharmaceuticals, which can have adverse side effects.
http://www.thehealingacupuncturist.com/acupuncture101.html

[Orrex]

111. Qi has never been demonstrated to exist. Not once. Not anywhere. Not ever.

Any claim based on qi is magical thinking. Full stop.

[truebluegreen]

215. Not to say that acupuncture qualifies but

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur C. Clarke

[Orrex]

220. Clarke also believed in cold fusion

His quote is worth remembering, but it's not the get-out-of-science-free card that you're suggesing here and in other threads.

[truebluegreen]

221. Whatevs, dude. Thanks for reading my mind

as to what I am suggesting or thinking.

[Orrex]

224. Well, you posted the same thing in two separate threads today

One might reasonably draw inferences from that repetition. It has nothing to do with reading your mind (that would be woo) and everything to do with reading your posts.

[Vashta Nerada]

128. Christianity has been around for 2,000 years.

It still doesn't mean that religion is right.

[darkangel218]

139. Accupuncture is a fucking applied science,

While xtianity is a Belief!!!

[Vashta Nerada]

143. Applied science?

Really?



Are you the one studying to be a nurse?

Even the Mayo Clinic calls it Traditional Chinese Medicine: http://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/acupuncture/basics/definition/PRC-20020778

[darkangel218]

145. Just fucking go away. Take your personal attacks elsewhere.

[Vashta Nerada]

146. See my edit.

[darkangel218]

148. No thanks. youre blocked.

I want nothing to do with your and your insulting, flamebating posts.

Good ridance.

[IdaBriggs]

186. Yeah! NOW you think the Mayo Clinic is a legitimate source!

I have helped someone see the light! Welcome, sister!



(This is supposed to be a gentle poke reference to you asking me about credible references a little whole ago, and is meant in a humorous way.)

[jeff47]

183. If that were true, it would matter where the needles go.

Unfortunately for fans of acupuncture, it doesn't. The patient just has to believe the needles are being put in the right place.

The mechanism for acupuncture is psychosomatic. That doesn't mean it doesn't "work", it means the bullshit used to try and justify the practice (like Qi) is bullshit.

[BlueCaliDem]

174. Doesn't mean it's wrong, either.

Right?

[NuclearDem]

196. Alright, "it's been around a really long time" doesn't mean "it's science!"

"Has undergone observation, testing, further independent testing, and peer review" = "it's science"

Guess what acupuncture hasn't gone through successfully.

[BlueCaliDem]

222. It's "all right", not "alright" . . . and do you really believe that the Chinese don't do

"observation, testing, further independent testing, and peer reviews"? For god's sake, the Chinese were already donned in silks while Europeans were still walking around in bear hides and rough linen as advanced a culture as they are.

Come on.

And you must've missed this part of my post:

Acupuncture has been endorsed "by the US National Institutes of Health, the UK's National Health Service, and the United Nations' World Health Organization". And they'd do all that endorsing because it's "woo" science? Right.

I would trust Eastern medicine and medical treatment before I trust Western medicine and medical treatment.

I have had chronic gastritis (because of using ibuprofen - Western medicine that went through observation, testing, further independent testing, and peer reviews, no?). Pepcid AC or Zantac (again, Western medicine that has undergone observation, testing, further independent testing, and peer reviews) prescribed by my doctor did nothing to heal my peptic ulcer and gastritis. Nothing.

However, Siberian Pine Nut Oil not only relieved the symptoms, it suppressed my appetite (lost 30 pounds in three months), gave instant relief against the pain, AND healed my ulcer in addition to curing me of gastritis - within TWO months. Pine Nut Oil has been around for over 10,000 years and has been keeping people healthy.

The results of independent clinical studies in Russia and China have resulted in pine nut oil now is being considered a remedy for these conditions in both countries. Here? Not yet.

[NuclearDem]

223. Chinese advancements in clothing have fuck all to do with the validity of TCM.

Also for the record, that western medicine that Europeans weren't using at the time was being refined by the scientists and doctors of the Islamic caliphates. So really, a more apt comparison is that while the Chinese were eating herbs and poking with needles, Islamic doctors were setting up the first hospitals and performing eye surgery.

And please do cite those clinical trials in China and Russia. I don't doubt that that oil may have some uses, but until I see more than an anecdote about something that may or may not have happened, I'm not willing to throw centuries of western medicine down the toilet.

[BlueCaliDem]

226. Goes to historic credibility in cultural advancement. Don't be mad. Be open-minded.

As for the clinical STUDIES, not trials, it's on the Intertubes. How about you do your own homework and stop expecting people to do it for you? That way, you'll know you'll be reading unbiased information - being the distrustful skeptic that you appear to be.

I gave you the information you need in order to start your own research into Pine Nut Oil benefits. Do with it what you like: open your mind or keep your staunch belief in Western "medicine" propagated by multinational, multi-billion dollar Big Pharma that's proven to have done more harm than good.

By the way, did you know they found a cure for ALL types of cancers? Even AIDs? Yep. Another little secret Big Pharma likes to keep under wraps using the power of the FDA to do it that will immediately shut you down if you dare claim you have something that can "cure". They're not interested in finding cures for cancer and AIDs. They're only interested in protecting their hundred billion a year enterprise.

Two-time Nobel Prize winner and friend to none other than Dr. Einstein, Doctor Otto Warburg, discovered the source of cancer and how to prevent it.

Oncologist Dr. Herman Keller found the cure through the Venus Flytrap extract, as reported by Dr. Morton Walker (winner of 23 medical journalism awards) who also reported that none other than President Reagan used Carnivora Venus Flytrap to prevent his colon cancer from spreading.

Walker reported that following the removal of malignant polyps from his colon, President Reagan sent to Nordhalben, Germany for an herbal extract of the Venus’ Flytrap to take as a preventative against the spread of cancer. Thereafter, he drank thirty drops of the extract in a glass of water or tea four times a day. As of 1995, the former president was still taking the Venus’ Flytrap extract.
http://www.awarenessmag.com/sepoct0/SO0_VENUS_FLYTRAP.HTM

The science behind Carnivora Venus Flytrap.


Also, Dr. C. Joe Schneller M.D., N.D., D.Sc., D.Ac., D.C., Inventor of World's First Hybrid Darkfield Microscope, has performed preliminary studies preceding double blind clinical studies demonstrating how three Capsules of Carnivora wake up important white blood cells & NK cells of the immune system creating "Powerful Immune Defense."

You can see him perform the study in the vid below.

He's also a firm believer in the simple Venus Flytrap extract.

Eastern medicine's main focus is on alternative, holistic treatments and promotes "self-healing" for a huge variety of serious and deadly diseases that benefit you with no side effects. And they work.

By contrast, Western medicine focuses on PROFIT that sometimes get it right, but what usually have horrible side effects.

That's where the difference lies and that's why I trust Eastern "medicine" and treatments over Western "medicine" and treatments.

[NuclearDem]

230. The American Cancer Society says your miracle cancer drug is grade-A bullcrap.

http://m.cancer.org/treatment/treatmentsandsideeffects/complementaryandalternativemedicine/herbsvitaminsandminerals/venus-flytrap

Available scientific evidence does not support the health claims made for Venus flytrap extract. Plumbagin, a substance found in many plants, is thought to be the active ingredient in the Venus flytrap. The plant also contains other compounds such as flavonoids, acids, and enzymes (digestive proteins).

Most of the studies done on the herbal extract were conducted by the physician who patented the drug Carnivora, who also has a large financial stake in a clinic that administers the drug and in the company that manufactures the drug.

Oh man, look at that.

The Warburg hypothesis has merit. Carnivora is snake oil.

And for the record, when you make a claim, it's your responsibility to back it up and provide evidence. It's not the audience's responsibility to go out and do your research for you.

If it looks too good to be true, it is.

And for the record, historical credibility with regard to culture has fuck all to do with the validity of a scientific concept. The Chinese were wearing silk because the silk worm is fucking native to China, and people make clothes out of what's readily available. Has nothing to do with science.

[BlueCaliDem]

232. The American Cancer Society *of course* would deny the research and studies

in other countries, and all those clinical studies that resulted in positive results in patients by the thousands - including an American president - who have undergone cancer treatment using the 100% pure extract from the Venus Flytrap plant - and were cured.

President Reagan, like most elites in this country, rejected chemotherapy for Carnivora therapy - and aside from the wonderful fact he got to keep the hair he's always been so proud of, he LIVED.

Carnivora is snake oil.

Well, I hope you don't mind when I choose to trust Dr. C. Joe Schneller M.D., N.D., D.Sc., D.Ac., D.C.'s professional opinion, based on his research, over yours.

The American Cancer Society are snakeoil salesmen. Read about them here.

All they want to do is keep their huge taxpayer funded government grants and corporate funds that they receive from Big Pharma. They spend precious little on actual cancer research, as you can read. Big Pharma has a vested and monetary interest in the continuance of research in cancer rather than actually finding a cure. Besides, plants (like the sun) can't be patented, and that's why Big Pharma is against any alternative medicine research, especially Carnivora, which is 100% pure Venus Flytrap extract. Big Pharma LOVES their monopoly and the billions it brings in.

But you know that.

It's just sad that you continue to defend Big Pharma and pro-Big Pharma associates (like City of Hope and The American Cancer Society) despite the evidence presented by medical professionals like Dr. Morton, Dr. Keller, and Dr. C.J. Schneller.

I can only hope that, god forbid, should you ever contract any of those horrible diseases, you'll have a change of heart. At minimum, the information I provided will help you, be it now or in the future, because you can bet your everything that when Western medicine fails you (and it will), you'll do everything you can, even turn to Eastern and alternative medicine (which you now belittle and clearly despise), in order to survive.

And for the record, when you make a claim, it's your responsibility to back it up and provide evidence. It's not the audience's responsibility to go out and do your research for you.

Nope. It's a courtesy. We're not in a court of law. I'm not the plaintiff. And because you're so skeptical, I gave you what you needed in order to do your own research with the advise to do with it as you please. And there my responsibility ends.

[NuclearDem]

233. Alright, you are just way too far gone into this crazy shit.

Your argument against the ACS comes from a guy who makes a living defending tobacco producers. Of course he would have an interest in attacking the ACS.

It's utterly astounding that while you accuse me of being a shill of the Big Pharma that exploits the sick by charging outrageous prices for drugs, you have the cognitive dissonance to simultaneously defend a snake oil salesman who charges for a "miracle cure."

The science behind pharmaceuticals is solid. The behavior of the companies needs to change.

Shame on you for exploiting cancer patients with this nonsense.

And yes, when you're having a debate, it is the responsibility (not a fucking courtesy) of the person making the positive claim to provide their evidence. But I can see why you wouldn't want to, because the evidence you've provided so far is nothing but junk.

If you're this far down the rabbit hole with your snake oil, phony cures, and a massive conspiracy all across the medical fields to keep a Venus Flytrap extract from being sold, then I'm well and truly sorry for you, but I can't keep this up and stay sane.

[BlueCaliDem]

238. Did you even read the article? Or did your prejudice and stung ego get in the way

of common sense? It doesn't matter what that attorney's motivation is for unmasking the ACS. He's an attorney, therefore everything he publishes better darn well be accurate or he could face a counter-suit for slander against a very powerful lobby in DC.

Either way, and just in case it hasn't sunk in with you yet, you lost the argument. That's what happens when your ONLY defense is personal opinion.

You've failed to refute the studies I've presented with anything other than your pro-Big Pharma bias and inability as well as refusal to understand recent and documented research, pooh-poohing everything away with "it's all nonsense!" (I cleaned up the language for you since I'll be the adult here) despite the evidence to the contrary.

And yes, when you're having a debate, it is the responsibility (not a ....... courtesy) of the person making the positive claim to provide their evidence.

No. Not in this case. Were I debating someone who's serious about debating the issues rather than underscoring their bias, you might have an argument there. You don't now. Again, this is not a court of law; I'm not the Plaintiff, and I don't owe you squat. Do your own homework.

Well, NuclearDem, I have no need for abrasive "Dems" like you. You've earned yourself the coveted Full Ignore. At least I got the information out here for others to read and hopefully it could help them or their loved ones.

Full disclosure: I am not and have never been affiliated with Carnivora International or any other persons or entities involved with the reporting, the research, and who stand behind the product and studies, in any way.

[naturallyselected]

117. There's some evidence for the effectiveness of acupuncture

There are some decent studies supporting acupuncture's effectiveness, especially for pain, and there are some that found no effect at all. But if it does work, it doesn't mean the mystical, very non-scientific, explanations that have been offered for the reasons it works have any scientific basis. If it works, I would like to know how it works, and that is completely unknown.

That said, my wife had horrible back pain during her third pregnancy, and went for acupuncture about 10 times - to absolutely no effect at all. That's the problem for things like this I am personally on the fence about. For every anecdotal testimonial to success, there are just as many anecdotal testimonies for failure. My wife's acupuncturist told her it wasn't working because she wasn't "open" to it working. She was so desperate for relief, she was open to anything - and statements like her acupuncturist's are what make me wonder if it's mostly placebo effect after all.

[GeorgeGist]

119. Ahem ...

acupuncture isn't natural.

[NBachers]

140. Is there any way I can put the word "woo" on ignore so I never never have to read it again?

[Vashta Nerada]

152. Click on "My Account" at the top

Click on the "Trash Can" tab and in the "Auto-trash by Keyword" box, type in "woo" and press the "Trash it" button.

[NBachers]

154. Well that was a quick reply- I didn't think there was actually a way to do it. Thanks!

[1000words]

201. I've done exactly that!

I don't know why folks refuse to use the tools even the site creators felt compelled to include (ignore, trash), but it has certainly served me well.

Thanks Skinner, Earl Grey and elad. This site is very well thought out, imo.

[1000words]

157. My acupuncturist "moonlights" as a nurse practitioner.

Best of both worlds.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

193. Mine was a Columbia University-educated physician...

with Kaiser Permanente. Pain-relief, relaxation... I can't say enough good things about that experience.

[nikto]

158. Acupuncture works very well for some things...

Just like medical marijuana.

They are not cure-alls.

Just effective pain-relief for some conditions.

[4dsc]

160. and sometimes a blind squirrel find a nut

You apparently didn't hurt yourself that bad.

[Quixote1818]

166. Reminds me of this quote by Tim Minchin

Do you know what they call "alternative medicine" That's been proven to work?


Medicine

Unfortunately, when it comes to peer review science acupuncture has only proven to be a placebo. Maybe someday that will change but until then I will stick with the science.

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html

[Texasgal]

168. Clueless you are.

Maybe some drugs would have worked better.

[4dsc]

217. Its a scam.

just like going to a chiropractor.

[Thinkingabout]

227. Have you ever trieed either?

[Scout]

242. my lower back and the before & after x-rays differ...

suffered from low back pain for 30+ years ... tried muscle relaxers, physical therapy, heel lift for one leg, work out with weights, DON'T work out with weights... all that "conventional" medicine.

funny how the chiropractor has eliminated the pain. i know, that's just anecdotal evidence LOL

[Benton D Struckcheon]

178. Acupuncture <> woo,

not according to my wife, who's an MD. She has no problem with it.
I'm pretty sure a person has to be trained and licensed to offer acupuncture, these days. Not positive about that. Either way, she's as down to earth as it gets when it comes to this sort of thing, and as far as she's concerned, it's good.

[Quixote1818]

187. Which journal is her peer reviewed study published in?

[Benton D Struckcheon]

189. Not sure why snark is the instant response

If you have a problem, take it up with the NIH:

Researchers from the Acupuncture Trialists’ Collaboration, a group that was established to synthesize data from high-quality randomized trials on acupuncture for chronic pain, conducted an analysis of individual patient data from 29 high-quality randomized controlled trials, including a total of 17,922 people. These trials investigated the use of acupuncture for back and neck pain, osteoarthritis, shoulder pain, or chronic headache.

For all pain types studied, the researchers found modest but statistically significant differences between acupuncture versus simulated acupuncture approaches (i.e., specific effects), and larger differences between acupuncture versus a no-acupuncture controls (i.e., non-specific effects). (In traditional acupuncture, needles are inserted at specific points on the body. Simulated acupuncture includes a variety of approaches which mimic this procedure; some approaches do not pierce the skin or use specific points on the body.) The sizes of the effects were generally similar across all pain conditions studied.

The authors noted that these findings suggest that the total effects of acupuncture, as experienced by patients in clinical practice, are clinically relevant. They also noted that their study provides the most robust evidence to date that acupuncture is more than just placebo and a reasonable referral option for patients with chronic pain.

http://nccam.nih.gov/research/results/spotlight/091012

[Quixote1818]

198. Thanks, this is good

Saying it "May" be helpful to pain is not exactly a rock solid endorsement of the practice but at least this has real research behind it.

If I were in chronic pain and conventional drugs were not working I would most certainly try acupuncture but it would not be my first choice based on how lukewarm the research is. Something like morphine would!

My understanding of acupuncture was based on the following links:

This one uses your article as a reference and comes to a different conclusion: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/acupuncture-doesnt-work/

From USNews: Toothpicks Match Needles for Acupuncture
A sham form of acupuncture using toothpicks that don’t penetrate the skin works as well as traditional needle acupuncture for relieving back pain, researchers report in the May 11 Archives of Internal Medicine. Both procedures outperformed non-acupuncture alternatives, such as medication alone.

http://www.usnews.com/science/articles/2009/05/12/toothpicks-match-needles-for-acupuncture


And this video does a nice job:

[longship]

188. What's natural about shoving needles in your flesh?

And a hurt shoulder from a fall is very likely a self-limiting injury, as long as nothing was broken, or torn away.

I had a similar fall and my alternative care person told me that I should eat only beans and franks for five weeks. You know what? It worked. Unfortunately, nobody in the household could stand to be in the same room with me, with all the flatulence.

But after the five weeks, I was okee-dokey! It worked.

Of course, I could have eaten anything and I would have healed in five weeks.

The beans and franks and the acupuncture don't make a bit of difference. But at least the beans and franks don't risk blood poisoning from non-sterile procedures by alternative practitioners.

[LeftyMom]

195. How is healing a hurt shoulder in five weeks unusual?

That's like the woman I know who told me that reiki was totally a real thing because she shaved her grandson's head after a botched haircut, and she applied reiki to his head, and after a few weeks his hair grew back. Hair grows back and bumped shoulders get better. No further explanation required.

[Texasgal]

228. It helped my pain.

I never said it healed me. I'm sure alot of it healed on it's own. Having to not take anti-inlams is a big deal to me.

[intaglio]

205. You got better on your own - it happens

Acupuncture has effects indistinguishable from placebo effects.

[MellowDem]

216. "Worked"

I'm guessing means reduced the pain? Plenty of things create the placebo effect. Heck, there is even a nocebo effect. Which is to say, there may be no proof that sticking yourself with needles reduces pain, but that your brains reaction to it? Maybe. But placebo effects only do so much, and they should be acknowledged as such. The brain is a powerful thing, as are the chemicals it releases.

[stevenleser]

219. I don't consider acupuncture to be woo. As wikipedia notes...

... Acupuncture's use for certain minor conditions has been recognized by the United States National Institutes of Health, the National Health Service of the United Kingdom,the World Health Organization...

That, to me, rules out woo.

It doesn't mean that science may not rule it out at some point in the future, but that applies to everything. I understand that its effects are close to or the same as placebo, but if you are relying on those above organizations, you aren't relying on woo, IMHO, even if it later is proven on such.

If that isn't clear, I place a distinction between what the above bodies recognize and what they don't.

[tavalon]

225. I have a similar story

I had a work injury (nurse also). It was a C5 bulge which actually caused extreme pain in my left arm. I was in physical therapy for the injury and was complaining to the therapist that no pain meds, including one's for neuropathic pain, were working and that it was really wearing me down. He suggested I see the acupuncturist they employed. He said it wouldn't be covered by Workman's Comp but it might help. I had doubts but I was just worn out from the non-stop pain.

So I went. I walked out of there pain free. No, it didn't last forever but I kept going and as my injury subsided, the pain eased on it's own with the good sound science of PT. I neither believed nor disbelieved in acupuncture, it was just something that never occurred to me.

Oh, the same clinic offered me B12 shots and I took them, though I wondered what the mechanism was. I found out later that it seems to have some effect on neuropathic injuries. But I didn't find that out until I was back at work, so it might as well have been woo. I was interested in any and all possible treatments as I didn't want to live with that pain and I really wanted to get back to nursing.

This giant woo storm (where the hell did this come from?) stems from black and white thinking and is very limiting. Yeah, some of the stuff is crap and some of it is wonderful and the unwillingness to look beyond a certain box is an unfortunate thing I've seen a lot of here on DU lately.

I'm kind of an oddball as a medical professional. Most of us strongly believe in our religion and we call it science, but it's really just tales handed down, not all that different from wives tales, many of which have become the bedrock of medical tales, whether true or not. Alas, 13 years ago, I lost my religion - I even remember posting a livejournal with that title. Luckily I didn't lose the love of my calling, I just realized the veneer was nothing more than wizard of oz stuff.

I'm especially amused by the "new" buzz phrase "Evidence based medicine". It kind of tacitly admits what I've known for more than half of my career as a nurse. The things we do in medicine are just the things that were taught to us by our mentors who received their things from............ Science? Nah. Lore.

[freebrew]

234. In 1980, I had to pay an AMA doctor...

to try talking me out of an as yet unapproved surgery.

Radial Keratotomy(?) was just being tried here. The USSR(Russia for the young folk), had been doing it for decades.

I had it done anyway, and had 20/20 vision until I hit the reading glasses stage like everyone my age.

The AMA is one of the most staid institutions in the country and it's no wonder our healthcare is in the crapper.

[Rider3]

235. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't

Acupuncture worked for my neck issues, but not for my back (disc) issues. Only surgery helped the disc. But, hey, try what you can before you undergo any surgery. Everyone's different.

[MrMickeysMom]

236. K&R… I've been an RT 39 years, and work around some excellent researchers...

I respect them because I've seen so much in my almost 40 years of respiratory care. In fact, I've taken education modules just in case I decide to move from the diagnostic end of health care to research.

I found myself catching up on all this flavor of the week bantering on "woo". Sometimes you just have to stop a moment and realize, like Texasgal says, that natural things do work. We just haven't quantified the safety and efficacy all treatment to be used for disease states.

We are supposed to leave that up to research, but, unless you're big pharma, NIH grants seems to dish out less and less of the Lion's share of funding each year.

I find it interesting the speed at which all the dollars from pharma results in more and more drugs getting released to treat conditions that ARE affected by other things. For example, prevention measures like exercise, or meditation, which this article addresses:
http://www.yogameditation.com/Articles/Issues-of-Bindu/Bindu-11/Pictures-of-the-brain-s-activity-during-Yoga-Nidra

It also pisses me off to think there is bias and conflict of interest in some big pharmaceutical companies expecting good outcomes of their drugs, only to be released so soon, many are withdrawn because of the poor outcome.

We don't research everything that is a treatment, and we should. And we seem to have no end to treatment in the form of pharmaceuticals.

Personally, I'd rather opt for observing groups of people who stay healthy without drugs and then do research on them, but the FDA and United States Congress don't exactly align with the best outcome to health. If they did, they'd reimburse studies that take a long time. This would certainly include longitudinal studies of exercise.

[Cleita]

237. +1000

[athena]

239. One incident is not enough to conclude anything.

Based on one, self-made observation of acupuncture apparently working, you can't conclude that "sometimes natural things work."

Your observation was almost certainly the placebo effect. A reliable scientific study has to have the following checks:
1. It should be controlled. In other words, one group of people should receive placebo, while the other receives the actual drug.
2. The experiment should be double-blind. Neither the administrator nor the patient should know whether the patient is receiving the placebo or the drug. This will ensure that the study group isn't getting better care than the placebo group.
3. The sample size should be large to separate out fluctuation.

For these reasons, a single personal anecdote is not the equivalent of proper scientific research.

P.S. It may at first seem difficult to design a placebo for a study of acupuncture, but it's certainly possible. For example, one group of patients can get "real" acupuncture, in the supposedly correct spots, whereas the placebo group can get "fake" acupuncture, in random spots and using incorrect technique. My guess is that there wouldn't be any statistically significant difference in outcome between the two groups, if such an experiment were done.

[cthulu2016]

240. What is "natural" about accupuncture?