To all the New Jersey Democratic Mayors who supported Christie over Buono . . .

[markpkessinger]

. . . Are you all proud of yourselves?

[hrmjustin]

1. Great point!

[Suburban Warrior]

2. Add the Democratic voters

who voted for Christie too. And there were many of them.

[JoePhilly]

3. They were trying to avoid this exact kind of attack by Christie on their

constituents.

[markpkessinger]

5. It never pays to appease a bully n/t

[JoePhilly]

6. Worked fine for those who did not cross Christie.

Also, in this case the real threat is not to the elected official but to the people they represented.

It's one thing to stand and fight and take the lumps yourself, quite another for the punishment to be inflicted on others.

Very easy to stand up to the bully from the safety of your keyboard.

[liberal_at_heart]

10. constituents also suffer when republicans are in office period.

By giving in to him they were already setting their constituents up for suffering. No, they get no sympathy from me on this.

[JoePhilly]

25. I don't care whether you sympothize with them or not.

Those elected Dems were like the store owner paying protection to the mob. Pay the protection, or something bad happens to your store.

Some paid. The mayor of Fort Lee didn't.

Its just a fact. Some on DU don't seem to understand why some endorsed him. This is why.

And so they get angry at the store owner, rather than at the mob boss.

The good news, is that Christie's goons were so ham-handed, that they left a trial all the way back to his door step.

[JoePhilly]

68. Buono is on Chris Hayes NOW saying what I've been telling you.

Dems endorsed Christie out of fear of retribution.

[sabrina 1]

91. The Dems have denied they voted out of fear, they still support him they say and believe what

he is saying.

Buono said a lot more than that, she confirmed what we knew already. The Party abandoned her, she could not get money to help with her campaign. She stood up to Christie, so the 'fear of retaliation' excuse, now denied by the Dems who voted for the Republican rather than the Democrat anyhow, is no excuse whatsoever. If they don't have the guts, as Buono did, to stand up to Republicans then let them join that party and let Dems get some REAL Democrats. Politics is not the place to be if you are so scared of Republicans you're going to support THEM rather than your own party.

[JoePhilly]

92. So now you are a party loyalist?

The fact that some stood up to him and some felt they could not is irrelevant.

Christie is still mayor and they are all still mayors. Some of them will not feel they can say they feared him because he can still seek revenge. Nothing has happened to change that.

I doubt any of them were thrilled or in any hurry to admit that they endorsed him out of fear.

[sabrina 1]

93. Christie is not the mayor, he is the Governor. What do you mean 'loyalist'. Show me where

I, unlike some of the so-called 'loyalists' here EVER supported, EVER any candidate other than a Progressive Democrat. Either prove that nasty implication or take it back. I am a Democrat who supports DEMOCRATS unlike some here who are just fine with supporting the likes of right wing bullies like Christie, or Third Way Corporate infiltrators. I have NEVER, EVER supported anyone who was not an actual Democrat and never will. Why are YOU excusing Dems abandoning a very good Progressive Candidate in favor of the Republican, that is what I would like to know.

I expect that implication that I have not been a Democrat until now to be taken back now. It is an absolutely false statement which you will never be able to back up so you may as well just apologize for it.

And now you are saying something even worse about the Lieberman Dems who voted for the Republican for GOVERNOR. You are saying they are now LYING.

Just stop, that we have Dinos in this party who belong in the Republican party is no secret. We've been aware of that for a long time. The NJ Gubernatorial race made crystal clear why this party needs new leadership and neads to send those Dinos back to the Republican party which they have now clearly stated they prefer.

[JoePhilly]

95. You just said those mayors should have put party first.

Re-read what you wrote.

If you saw Buono, then you also heard her say that many of these same mayors told her directly that the reason they could not endorse her was because they feared retribution from Christie.

Now ... you claim they all deny this. Well, if so ... some one is lying.

Are the mayors lying about being afraid, or is Buono lying about what she says they told her?

Personally, I think Buono is telling the truth, and those denying it are lying.

So please feel free to defend those mayors, and call Buono a liar.

btw .. the fact that we have DINOS is irrelevant to this discussion. If Buono is to be believed (and I believe her), they were afraid to endorse her because they feared Christie, not because they preferred his politics to hers.

So again, feel free to defend them.

[sabrina 1]

98. I will repeat what I said, what I have always said and what I will continue to say

so that there is no chance of you mischaracterizing MY position on this subject. This is more for those reading than for you because I see you have a propensity for either not understanding what is being said to you or for distorting it for some reason.

I am a Democrat. I do not support Republicans. I do not, and never have, supported Republicans.

I absolutely do not support Republicans being appointed to powerful positions in the Democratic Party.

I despise pretend Democrats voting for Republicans for ANY reason.

I do not and never have supported Dinos/Third Wayers/DLCers/Republican Lite taking over the Democratic Party and imposing their corporate anti-worker policies on THIS Party.

All of the above are Democratic principles. If YOU have a problem with Democratic Principles, that is not my concern.

Just do NOT attempt to mischaracterize my position on politics because I am perfectly capable of speaking for myself and will most definitely correct any attempt to mischaracterize me.

[JoePhilly]

102. Wow ... outstanding purity rant.

Honestly, you remind me of the holier than thou Baptist preachers I encountered when I was younger. Those dudes were going to Heaven and I definitely was NOT.

But I understand.

You are clearly a much better Democrat that those evil NJ mayors ... and a much better Dem than I am too, apparently.

.
.
.

As for my problems ...

I have somewhat of a problem with the self appointed Priest class of Dems who sit in judgement over the rest of us.

Being sin free gives them an edge I suppose.

[sabrina 1]

107. You're backing off your false claim now. Great, mission accomplished. Now let's get

back to your support for the Dem Party supporting Republicans.

I KNOW the 'Purists' bother those who welcome Republicans into the Dem Party. They are hampering the plan of the one party Corporate system.

It is so obvious now and one huge clue to the Corporate Third Way/Republican Lite supporters, who are now even going further and supporting Republican Candidates, is when they pull out the 'Purist', 'Reality Based Community', 'Concern Troll', 'Purity Troll' talking points which were especially prepared for the infiltration of the Democratic Party as we all know. Did you know that, btw?

So, you support Republicans like Christie getting the support of the Democratic Party OVER the Democratic candidate.

You are all over the place here. I'm trying to keep up with the ever changing positions and really do want to know 'where DO you stand'.

I have made my 'Purity' position clear. Yours is not clear at all.

Very proud of being a Purist on what is right btw. Thanks for the compliment.

[JoePhilly]

109. I made no false claims.

They endorsed Christie out of fear, and Buono has confirmed this (assuming she is telling the truth about what they told her privately, which I believe).

Now for your latest sermon ...

So, you support Republicans like Christie getting the support of the Democratic Party OVER the Democratic candidate.

No. Do not support that. I simply recognize the actual reason they did it. And its not because they preferred his politics to Buonos.

You are all over the place here. I'm trying to keep up with the ever changing positions and really do want to know 'where DO you stand'.

It is your accusations that are "all over the place".

My position remains unchanged. To repeat. The Dem NJ mayors who endorsed Christie did so because they feared his retribution, not because they preferred his politics to those of Buono. Buono herself has said many of them told her exactly that when she sought their endorsement herself.

My preference .... those mayors should have come together and supported Buono. They should have done so as a group. They were too afraid to do so. Each decided it was safer to not cross Christie.

Finally, for all of your ranting, I stand by my assertion that you will do nothing to remove any of these mayors. And they knew that too. They made the political calculation that Christie was far more of a threat to them, than you could ever hope to be. You will not be championing a primary opponent from their left.

[sabrina 1]

111. The Dem Mayors are contradicting you. Buono told us what SHE WAS TOLD in order to try

explain to her why the Dem Party was not supporting the Dem Candidate. You misunderstood what she was saying.

And frankly, to use such an excuse 'we are cowards, we have to support the Republican bully because we are afraid of him' is utterly ridiculous. Which is why they are probably telling the truth now. Maybe a few gullible people in NJ might have believed that, but now the entire country is watching. So they are telling the truth, they actually supported the Republican over the Democrat, shamefully.

I remember the arguments right here trying to defend that despicable show of support for Christie. There simply is no excuse for it, except to tell the truth. The Dem Party has been infiltrated by Corporatists who are far more comfortable with another Corporatist like Christie and they voted accordingly.

Now the question is how to replace these Dinos with Real Democrats who will vote for Democrats.

[smokey nj]

101. New Jersey Democrats Who Endorsed Christie Stand By Their Man

http://www.buzzfeed.com/evanmcsan/democratic-mayors-who-endorsed-christie-stand-by-their-man

[JoePhilly]

103. Either they are lying or Buono is.

I think they are lying because they don't want to admit that they gave in to extortion.

Buono said last night that many of them told her directly that they endorsed him because they feared him.

[smokey nj]

105. So they're double-dose cowards. The bully beat them into submission and now that the bully's

been exposed, they're too frightened to admit that they were frightened.

[JoePhilly]

108. That sounds about right.

It would be politically costly for them to admit that they endorsed Christie because they feared him. So it should be no surprised that they won't admit it.

The store owner who pays protection money to the mob does not run around declaring that fact.

And when asked if they pay protection money to the mob, what do they say?

They say no.

[sabrina 1]

112. Wait, supposedly they DID make that claim, and seemed to think the opposite, that it would

be politically costly for them NOT to be afraid of Christie. That WAS the original excuse given to Buono as she said. And at the time of the race, it was mentioned several times. Apparently it was a response to criticism of Dems endorsing a Republican over a Democrat.

How about we just face the facts. Christie was popular with some Democrats at the time and the Leadership of the Party decided not to support THEIR candidate claiming it would be 'wasting money and time'. So they didn't even FIGHT for such an important race, for a Governor in a Blue State.

Now all we need to know is 'why'? They are contradicting themselves at this point and when that happens, you know someone is lying.

[JoePhilly]

113. They told Buono, in private. She said so.

[sabrina 1]

117. Why did they feel the need to explain to THEIR candidate why they could not

support her? Do you think that maybe it was because many Democrats were demanding to know why Dems were endorsing the Republican and they had to come up with something? It's certainly a very LAME and DAMAGING excuse so why do you think they chose that one? Maybe because there realy IS not excuse for what they did and this was a desperate attempt to try to excuse their behavior?

They also told her, to explain why the party was not financially supporting her, that they had to hide their contributions to her Democratic campaign which meant they could only give her tiny amounts the Republicans wouldn't find out about.

Why do you think SHE wasn't scared of Christie? Shouldn't she, of all people, the one actually challenging him, have been terrified of retaliations? I don't think she bought that excuse, which is what she was ACTUALLY saying last night.

[JoePhilly]

122. Ah, so they were not afraid that Christie might block their bridges,

or lose their requests for state level funding, or anything like that.

They just really love Christie.

If you believe that, then you should be working very hard to get them all thrown out and replaced with candidates you deem acceptable.

Ok, we both know THAT is not happening.

Buono had the guts to take on Christie. Those mayors did not. That's why they had to HIDE their contributions. They were afraid.

See how easy that was to explain.

I'm not sure why you think everyone had to act the same way this set of mayors did. There were others who did not endorse him.

One of them found his bridge closed. Oh wait ... so in your mind that was NOT a political payback of some kind.

Just an accident I guess.

[smokey nj]

114. So you think that behavior is something in which its practitioners should take pride?

Since you are all over this thread berating anyone who criticizes these mayors for their cowardice, that seems to be the case. And - before you tell me I don't understand NJ politics - not only am I a lifelong NJ resident, I'm a lifelong resident of Hudson county.

[JoePhilly]

115. I did not say anyone should be proud of these mayors.

I have argued that ...

(1) many of those who criticize them are incorrect in their reason for doing so. They want to claim these mayors prefer Christie to Buono. That's incorrect.

(2) It is perfectly reasonable to be upset with them for not standing up to Christie.

I grew up in Phily, with family all over PA and NJ. Most of them still live there.

Do you want to tell me that NJ politics are not incredibly corrupt, and have been for years?

Do you want to tell me that politicians in NJ don't make ugly deals that have very little to do with their ideology?

Most of NJ, including the people who live there, operate on a system of favors and grudges.

Certainly you are aware of this.

[smokey nj]

116. You've been defending them and justifying their behavior to the point that you look ridiculous.

Even when those mayors say themselves that Christie's their guy, you contorted yourself into a pretzel to excuse them. Please, just stop.

[JoePhilly]

119. You just called Buono a liar. That's really pathetic.

You believe the word of those cowards, over that of Buono.

Just horrible.

(this is a fun game ... your turn)

[smokey nj]

120. I did no such thing.

You keep on misrepresenting what Barbara Buono said in that interview, though. I'm sure she appreciates the staunch defense you give to the folks who betrayed her.

Barbara Buono Rips Democrats For 'Betrayal' In Race Against Christie

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/barbara-buono-rips-democrats-for-betrayal-in-race-against-christie

[JoePhilly]

121. Can dish it out but can't take it I see.

I did not say she LIKED the reason they gave for not endorsing her.

Naturally she does not. And she has every right to be pissed at them.

But she does know what the actual reason was, and she SAID SO on Chris Hayes.

Understanding why they did what they did is not the same thing as supporting or defending what they did.

But hey, let's focus on those bad Dem mayors because that's going to change or improve the situation.

[smokey nj]

123. I think focusing on cowardly and corrupt politicians and removing them from office would improve

the situation a lot. You seem to disagree.

[sabrina 1]

110. She also said she was unable to get support from the Party financially, and that she was told

it was because they feared 'retaliation'. So SHE is not lying, she is repeating what she was told. Now why would any Dem refuse to support a Dem candidate for one of the most ridiculous reasons ever given? 'We are scared to death of Republicans'??

Who tried to exuse the lack of support for the Dem Candidate? She was telling us but I think you missed her point.

She explained that she was told they could only give her very small donations, under the amount that would be recorded so that Republicans wouldn't be mad at them.

She is a smart woman, I believe she knew all along what was going on but is being careful for now in explaining WHY the Dem Candidate was not supported by the Dem Party.

She certainly wasn't afraid of Christie, was she? So can you explain why the entire party in NJ claimed that they were?

Regardless, apparently that was just a ploy and a bad one, since they WANTED Christie for Gov. NOW they are telling the truth, which makes a lot more sense, that they enthusiastically supported the Republican and STILL DO and that they believe him.

Buono knows the deal, it was obvious she was letting us know on Chris Hayes. Looks like you completely misunderstood her.

[JNelson6563]

65. Ok, no.

They weren't protecting their people as you would have us believe, they were protecting their political futures.

And yeah, I stand up to bullies in real life. Fuck that, I won't appease them. It's just a thing with me. I call it "principles".

Julie

[JoePhilly]

84. Buono was on Chris Hayes last night saying exactly what I have said.

You should watch it.

And again, its much easier to stand up to a bully when their threat is against YOU personally, and not others that you care about.

As for your "principles" ... anyone can sit at their keyboard and be as "tough" as you claim to be.

I'm sure your next act will be to run for mayor somewhere in NJ.

[JNelson6563]

87. Actually, I am in Michigan.

I grew up in a very abusive home. I know all about standing up to bullies and have taken enough hits for it. Guess what, that doesn't deter me, it's well worth the hit. Fuck that shit.

You don't know me. don't pretend to know shit cause ya don't.

Julie--done with you little one, run along now before someone says "Boo!" and makes you wet yourself

[JoePhilly]

96. And you don't know anything about NJ politics.

I love the level of your personal attack by the way ... you should have told me you were in middle school and I would have cut you some slack earlier.

[markpkessinger]

130. Appeasing a bully, much like negotiating with hostage-takers . . .

. . . may, indeed, over the short run, appear to be beneficial. But whatever the real or perceived short-term benefit, both can be counted upon to encourage more bullying/hostage-taking in the future.

[sabrina 1]

22. You're excusing Dem Politicians and Voters helping to elect a Republican? Then we won't be

hearing any criticism from you when DUers state why they won't be voting for any Third Way candidates? It's okay now for Dems to endorse and worse, actually VOTE for Republicans? I will remember this.

[Le Taz Hot]

28. Ooh, good catch!

[JoePhilly]

49. Yea, except that I didn't excuse them.

Other than that error, however, its a great catch.

[Le Taz Hot]

51. Yes you did

and the is a sure sign you just lost the argument.

[JoePhilly]

52. Na, I didn't. If you want to change a situation ...

the first thing you have to do is understand it.

Lots of you have never understood what caused those Dem mayors to endorse Christie. And you still don't.

And because you don't, there is little you could ever do to change that situation.

When you understand WHY they endorsed Christie (fear of retribution), you can actually go after Christie more easily NOW.

This situation is the realization of their fears. This situation is EXACTLY why they endorsed him. They were afraid he'd do something like this to their towns.

Now ... a politically savy Democrat would recognize this and ADD that reality to the current attack on Christie's behavior here. Include it as part of the narrative. Democrats KNEW he'd seek retribution, and here we can see that he HAS.

Or, we could take the politically impotent route some on DU like to take ... let's forget Christie ... let's instead whine about the Democrats.

Brilliant strategy.

[sabrina 1]

62. It's getting worse frankly. WE KNEW what Christie was capable of, to begin with. And we were TOLD

that we were 'politically naive, bi-partisanship, Sandy, Obama/Christie making Right Wingers angry, WE, who TOLD YOU ALL what a bully and typical Republican Christie is,were told 'You don't understand politics' etc.

NOW you're telling us that Dems DID KNOW what he was capable of, that it wasn't everything we were told, 'politics' 'show the public how 'reasonable Dems are' 'how Dems are willing to cross the aisle etc. So all of that was, what it sure looked like at them, total BS??

NOW you are attempting to excuse the Dem Party for not fighting who they KNEW was a thug, a bully a Typical Republican, JUST LIKE WE TOLD YOU, and this is really bad, 'because they KNEW what he was and CAVED out of FEAR of what he might do.

And you are seriously trying to tell us that NOW we can fight him? AFTER the fact? No, wrong, so wrong it hurts frankly.

Because here's what's wrong with your logic. WE ALWAYS KNEW that Republicans are ruthless bullies. We who pay attention saw nothing different about Christie. If we are to accept your logic, WE WOULD NEVER FIGHT THEM UNTIL they do harm to others.

The time to fight Christie was during the campaign. Face it, this is not the first instance where dems tacitly or openly endorsed a Republican. If our politicians are so frightened of Republicans that they will go so far as to endorse them, then all of OUR fears are justified and we must, no doubt about it, replace them with people who are NOT afraid to challenge them before this country is so far gone there will be no hope of saving it.

How about we just stop making excuses and admit, Dems abandoned their own candidate who actually could have given Christie a run for his money had she had the backing of the Party leadership. And for some unknown reason it is becoming more common for this to happen.

[JoePhilly]

63. Christie was going to WIN. You were never going to stop that.

You can argue you all you want, but Christie was not going to lose that race. His response to Sandy was effective in the eyes of the people of NJ.

The Democratic candidate was NEVER going to give Christie a "run for his money". That is a FANTASY.

So now, your brilliant strategy is to attack a bunch of lowly Democratic mayors. These guys are little fish swimming in tiny ponds. And you think THEY should be the folks we go after. Nonsense.

That's exactly why I say your political strategy is impotent. You'd waste effort attacking those little fish who are irrelevant to the national political situation. The people of those towns have to look at each of their mayors and decide what they think about how they responded to the threat of Christie's retribution.

There is little reason for DU to get excited about those mayors specifically because they are tiny players in all of this. Its like blaming the store owner for paying the protection money. Its the wrong point of focus.

Christie is a national threat. NJ was already lost.

Chasing those mayors around is silly from a political stand point.

Christie and his national ambitions are where the fight needs to be. And if you don't get that. You are politically naive.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

78. Oh, the old Third Way "I have to support them because they're going to win anyway"

excuse.

I've been hearing that one for over thirty years, ever since the DLC went all "bipartisan" with Reagan.

[JoePhilly]

85. Did you see Buono on Chris Hayes tonight. She said what I've been saying.

You should watch it.

They did not simply endorse him because he was going to win.

They endorsed him because they knew he'd win, and they feared what he'd do afterwards.

Buono agrees, and she said so on Chris Hayes last night.

Also, like so many around here, you confuse being able to recognize a political reality with the notion of supporting or being happy about that reality.

They are not the same thing.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

124. What about the alternative: "We're not going to endorse him because

we know he's a bulliy"?

Or perhaps something a little less crude:"We're not going to endorse him because we think he'll take reprisals if we don't and he wins"?

Not wrong if it's the truth.

[BlueCaliDem]

106. I don't know what you've been reading,

but having read JoePhilly's posts, he was clearly NOT excusing NJ Democrats for supporting Christie.

He was giving explanation (which now appears to be true), based on his knowledge of NJ politics, why Democrats were cowed into supporting the Republican. Ft. Lee was just a taste of what happened if they didn't.

It's sort of akin to Democrats cowering after 9/11/2001 and endorsing everything pResident Cheney wanted - including war with a sovereign country that had nothing to do with the WTC's attacks. This is how Republicans jive. And you know it.

[JoePhilly]

118. You've got it.

My real issue is how some on DU see what Christie is doing, and then, rather than focus on him, they attack the "cowardly Dems" first, and almost exclusively.

Christie is a nasty POS. But let's pretend that the best way to respond is to attack those mayors.

I guess we can all feel superior to those cowards. Ok. What next?

They are too busy complaining about these mayors to ever get to "what's next".

[BlueCaliDem]

125. I'm just tired of the circular firing squad that happens here on DU from time to time.

It's almost as if some on this site believe Democrats should always know better - no excuses - while at the same time, Republicans, because they're too stupid to know better, are absolved of all sin and without question. Because, you know? Those naughty, naughty Republicans will be Republicans! They just can't help themselves.

[JoePhilly]

29. I did not excuse them, I simply explained their behavior.

Members of DU's combustible hair club often struggle with facts and reality.

In this case, the Democratic mayors of NJ were like store owners being forced to pay protection money to the mob. Either they pay the protection money, or something bad happens to their store. Just a reality.

As is common with members of DU's combustible hair club, you are quick to attack the store owner, but not the mob boss.

Its a standard part of the naive political model to which the combustible hair club clings.

And, almost like clockwork, you attack me for explaining this reality. I'm not surprised by that. I expect it.

I should point out that I explained all of this before. And the current situation proves the point I made back when part of DU was freaking out when those Dems actually endorsed Christie. I said they feared what he would do. It was that simple.

Some (probably you included) claimed they were all really 3rd way types. That's the standard combustible hair club knee jerk response ... attacking dems without understanding the political reality of the situation.

In reality, they simply feared Christie and what he'd do to their towns if they crossed him. And this proves that.

Just a fact.

[Fumesucker]

37. Republicans are attacked constantly on the DU

So saying that Republicans are never attacked here is total bullshit.

If these politicians knew this sort of thing was going on they should have spoken up rather than endorsing Christie.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

[JoePhilly]

41. I did not say Repiblicans are NEVER attacked on DU.

Oh, and not only did these politicians know this was going on ... EVERYONE knew.

I explained this back when they were endorsing him. As part of DU flipped out, I explained it. Anyone who knows ANYTHING about NJ politics knew.

Down below in this thread, I describe what we should be doing now ... and its not attacking the democrats.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4303577

[Fumesucker]

45. If you're cool with Democratic politicians endorsing Republicans

Then I find it hard to take you seriously when you rail about things like third party voters.

[JoePhilly]

48. I did not say I was "cool with it".

You should work on reading comprehension.

I did not say I liked what they did ... I simply described why they did it.

I don't rail about 3rd party voters ... but I will mock them for the same kind of naive political thinking that is at work here by those focusing on these "bad dems" and not on Christie, who should be the real focus.

[JoePhilly]

69. Buono is on Chris Hayes NOW saying what I've been telling you.

You might want to watch it.

[sabrina 1]

71. Buono COULD have been Gov. of Blue State NJ had her party not endorsed the Republican. It's not

rocket science. Once Democrat after Democrat lavished praise on a known Right Wing Corporatist, she had no chance. And it's not the first time. It is becoming a patten, to support the so-called 'moderate' Republican over the Progressive Democrat.

She was abandoned by her own party as Cristie gloated over each new Democratic endorsement. It was sickening to watch at the time. I want to hear from those who were here 'explaining' to us 'naive leftists' why it was a great thing to endorse the Right Wing candidate over the Progressive. Where are they now?

[JoePhilly]

72. You should watch her segment on the show.

[joshcryer]

74. Republicans are not criticized at nearly the frequency as Democrats here.

Since it is impossible to prove this without writing software to do so all you have to do is come to DU on a given day, and read the top topics from the past 5 pages. You will clearly see that Republicans get a pass.

I don't think that the Democrats who endorsed him were afraid of retribution, I think they wanted to curry favors. It sucks, but that's how it is.

[Fumesucker]

76. We all see what we expect to see or what we want to see, don't we?

I'd say we probably talk more about Democrats than Republicans but that's because this is Democratic Underground.

You've missed All Christie, All Day on DU today.

[joshcryer]

77. Sure, it happens.

If a Republican does some stupid shit it will get discussed.

Next time I'm going to take screenshots. I should've done it in 2012 when Obama was basically criticized daily leading up to the elections and Rmoney was ignored for the most part.

[Fumesucker]

80. Please proceed, governor

[BlueCaliDem]

104. Oh, I was here and I'd seen it, too, joshcryer.

There were more attacks on Obama than Mittney here, even to the point I began to think that I'd wandered onto a Republican MB!

[Enthusiast]

67. I will remember it too.

It's downright fucking sickening. This is how we end up with corporatist legislation like the TPP.

[JoePhilly]

70. Did you see Buono on Chris Hayes tonight. She said what I've been saying.

Hope you remember that too.

[Enthusiast]

81. I have it on the TIVO ready to go for this AM.

Did Buono defend Christie and endorse him for president?

[JoePhilly]

83. Neither she, nor any of the Dem mayors frmo NJ, have been asked that question.

The point however, is that even she understood the politically reality of the retribution those mayors feared.

And she says so on Chris's show.

Some of you seem to think recognizing and understanding that reality, is the same as being happy about that reality.

It should be clear that those are not the same thing ... but DU's knee-jerk, blame the Democrats first chorus, tends to confuse them time and time again.

And this is no exception.

[NCTraveler]

89. Spot on sabrina.

This poster has made the same argument in an op of mine. I don't think they truly see how weak this line of reasoning is. They don't see how they are making an even worse argument for the dems who supported Christie. It is pathetic.

[hobbit709]

86. Ask Neville Chamberlain how well appeasement worked out.

[sabrina 1]

88. They just denied that so we can drop that excuse. They stated that they voted for him

willingly and STILL support him and believe him. I believe THEM. Seems the only guy who refused to vote for a Republican has come out on top. Which is often what happens to those who do what is right.

[JoePhilly]

90. And Buono said the opposite last night.

The store owner rarely admits he's paying protection money to the mob.

Again, get back to me after you watch Buono on Chris Hayes.

[sabrina 1]

94. She said a lot more than that. And THAT is what she was told by the Party, did you

miss that part? When she tried to get the support of her party, she was brushed aside. I heard her say that she was told they could not give her more than small amounts of money in order to hide it from Republicans.

Did you miss all of that?? It is SHAMEFUL that the leadership of the party told THEIR candidate they were afraid of Republicans to the point they could not support her financially and could not even record the pittance they gave her.

What we are finding out is even worse than we suspected about our party. You need to stop trying to defend any of this, it is simply not defensible and now we know what we are dealing with.

[JoePhilly]

97. Yes, it is shameful ... its also a fact.

They endorsed Christie out of fear, not because the preferred his political positions.

Again, explain the reality is not defending it.

Oh, and let's be honest here ... you are not going to left one finger away from your keyboard to do anything about any of these NJ mayors.

I doubt you can name more than two of them without using Google.

And I'd bet you know nothing about what anyone of them ran on when they ran for those positions. You have no idea what kind of Democrat they ran as. No idea if any of them have championed true progressive causes.

For all of your impotent rage about those bad NJ mayors, you aren't going to go any further.

[sabrina 1]

100. So you are saying that the Democrats are lying. And you think it's better to have

scared, lying Democrats than the alternative? I'm not sure what you are trying to do here. Are you defending Dems or slamming them?


Because when you call someone a liar that is generally an insult. When you accuse someone of voting for Republicans because they are such cowards they afraid not to, that is a serious insult.

So, are you defending or attacking them, it's hard to tell.

[Laxman]

4. I Don't Want To Defend Them But....

some of them are just creepy as Christie (see Essex County Executive Joe DeVincenzo). These guys are scum. They were just bought and paid for by the same handlers who own Christie.

However, some were scared to death, and I witnessed it first hand. Imagine you were the mayor of a town that was devastated by Hurricane Sandy. Your population is scattered, your infrastructure trashed, homes and businesses splintered. The guy who has his hands on the purse strings for recovery aid gives you the "seems like you've got a problem on your hands, would be a shame if you didn't qualify for funds to fix this up" speech.

Its easy to talk tough when you're not facing those conditions. I'm not giving them a pass and I don't think I would have done it if I were in their shoes but things aren't always what they may appear from afar.

[JoePhilly]

7. Ding ding ding!!!

[JustAnotherGen]

33. Times 1000

And we have to throw the State Democratic Party leadership right under the bus with them.

It was very obvious that from Wiesnewski on down the line that they weren't going to lift a finger to help Buono.


And you know what? At the end of the day Christie did this.

Not the mayors, Obama, DHS or blah blah blah anyone else. This is what's wrong with the party - everyone even here on DU is looking to make something out of their 'pet project' on this -

We have a shot at Christie finally. I wish everyone would stay on message so I don't have to have him as the Governor of NJ anymore.

[JoePhilly]

40. DU has a "blame Democrats first" contingent.

No matter what the situation, in their mind, the Democrats are at fault.

And you are correct ... we should ALL be attacking Christie.

What we should be seeing discussed in the media is exactly what I described.

Q: "Why did so many Democratic mayors endorse Christie?"
A: "Because they KNEW he'd seek retribution on them, and their constituents, if they did not."

The GOP likes to call Obama a "thug" ... but here we see exactly what kind of "thug" Christie actually is.

End of story.

Its a narrative that we should be driving.

And what is DU's combustible hair club doing ... attacking the Democrats.

And they are confused as to why they can't make better progress in getting their preferred candidates elected. Its because they can't see the forest for the trees.

[JustAnotherGen]

42. I'm going to tweet

and post on FB your Q/A.

Because that needs to be out there. Precisely as you've written it. Out there, picked up, and run with.

[JoePhilly]

44. Please proceed ... and I mean that in a good way ;-)

[JustAnotherGen]

47. Done! n/t

[markpkessinger]

128. Well, I suppose that's one way to look at it . . .

. . . But if you ever bothered to look a little deeper, I think you would find for many of the people you think want to "blame Democrats first," it's about refusing to give Democrats a pass on actions or policies for which we would never dream of giving a pass to Republicans. It's about the belief that fighting for is important enough to risk losing elections over sometimes. It is about refusing to accept that having a 'D' after one's name necessarily means that person actually stands for the policies, principles and values that have traditionally animated the Democratic Party.

It has never been about attacking Democrats for the sake of attacking Democrats. It IS about calling out those Democrats who continue to aid and abet the Republican agenda that pulls this country further and further to the right. If the Democratic mayors who supported Christie supported him because they support his policies, then the question arises as to whether they are in the correct party. If they did so out of fear of some sort of reprisal by Christie, then they made themselves into enablers of his bullying. (The suggestion that they were trying to protect their constituents is untenable, because, as Rachel Maddow pointed out the other night, it has never, in the past, been Christie's pattern to attack a political foe's constituents; rather, his usual pattern is to go directly after the foe himself/herself. Thus, the only people these mayors were tying to 'protect' from Christie was themselves.)

[smokey nj]

131. Well said.

Unfortunately, I don't think some folks will get it. That there's a person here who's upset with people criticizing Democratic officials who endorse Republican candidates because we're "bashing" Democrats proves we're through the looking glass. I still can't believe somebody actually stood up to justify and defend corruption and cowardice and did so with pride.

[markpkessinger]

133. <Sigh>

Depressing, isn't it?

[smokey nj]

136. It is, indeed.

[JoePhilly]

134. OK, so after we "call out" the Dems mayors in NJ, what do you want

to do about them next?

My problem with the "blame Democrats first" folks are that they rarely have some actual plan of action. They whine. That's it.

So ... in this situation should we be (a) pounding Christie, and making his extortion THE focus, or (b) complain impotently about a few NJ mayors that no one on this board can actually even name.

You mention Rachel's show ... Did she spesnd her time last night (a) going after those Dem mayors, or (b) providing example after example of what a nasty POS Christie is when it comes to political retribution?

She spent the entire show on Christie, and I'm pretty sure those mayors went unmentioned. Why? Because they did not create this situation. They are victims of it.

Her reporting did make one mistake last night. Most of those other instances also included non political players who got hurt. As one example, the removing of funding for the position at Rutgers University. That hurt more than just that professor. It hurt the school and the students. Same for the lower level government employees who were friends of another political opponent to Christie. They were not involved in the dispute, nor were their families who were hurt when those folks lost their jobs. I think Rachel was trying, unnecessarily, to distinguish this particular political attack from New Jersey's long history of nasty political retributions.

In a number of places in this thread, I compare this situation to the store owner who pays the mob protection money. Would you blame the store owner, or the mob boss? Who is really at fault? Where should the focus be? Do you make it stop by (a) removing the store owners who pay, or (b) catching the mob boss?

The bottom line is this ... What action do we want to take? Let's be honest, none of those I debated in this thread are going to lift a single finger beyond their keyboard to go after or remove any of those mayors. They are simply using those mayors to complain about how terrible the Democratic party is. I don't see how that is going to do anything to get rid of that POS Christie.

Honestly, I think that one of the reasons the more progressive parts of the Democratic party can get the candidates they want elected, is because these folks can't figure out which fights are the ones that matter. In this case, they get all worked up about what are mostly a bunch of small town mayors, and then lose sight of the real focus, which in this case, is Christie.

[Laxman]

135. You're Correct-Partly...

There are several reasons that some (and I emphasize SOME because the number is higher than it should have been but not large in comparison to the number of elected democrats in the state) supported Christie.

1. The democrats linked to Norcross/Development Interests/Business Community/Christie- include in this subset some who may not have endorsed him but have enabled his legislative agenda. (remember-democrats control both houses of the NJ legislature).

2. Democrats seeking to participate in a power play in the state (these are mostly found in north Jersey) Some of them not only endorsed Christie but actively spoke out against Buono. I also believe they played a part in holding down turnout in the heavily democratic urban northern counties. These are the democrats mostly concerned with themselves.

3.Economically vulnerable democrats. These were primarily small town mayors of communities devastated by Sandy. The governor's office holds nearly total control of the Sandy aid fund distribution. They were, in their minds, trying to protect their towns and their constituents.

4. There is a very small group of mostly mayors who think Christie is actually good. Take a big enough sample of the population and you're bound to find a few idiots in the bunch.

They should be judged accordingly, mostly harshly. New Jersey is a strange state politically. There are republicans who are more liberal than democrats in parts of the state. Some of them used to actually hold office. There are democrats beholden to the same big business interests as the republicans. It comes from the state's highly segregated nature. And I mean that on a lot of different fronts. There are only a relatively few of the 565 towns that cannot be categorized as a republican or democratic town. Yet there is extreme diversity in the state.

Finally, with all due respect to Rachel, she is wrong about Christie not exacting retribution on the constituents of his foes. It is often used as a threat and is sometimes carried out. No previous administration in the modern era of NJ has conducted their affairs in this manner.

[CatWoman]

9. didn't the Fort Lee mayor say something about investigating where the Sandy money went

as in, who was granted funds and how much?

[giftedgirl77]

27. That would be interesting....

Did he say that he thought there was any wrongdoing, or was he just floating the idea?

There's a reason the NJ AG has a RICO dept.

[Laxman]

31. Don't Count on The NJ Attorney General's Office...

to do anything. Here's the link to the "executive leadership" of the A.G.'s office.Three of the four have direct ties to Christie and were hired due their loyalty to him.

http://nj.gov/oag/oag/cs.html

Any real investigation will need to come from outside of state government or from the legislature.

[giftedgirl77]

35. True that they are part of his posse,

my brother in law works for the RICO division in Monmouth & they are independent of the rest of the office due to the corruption. Hopefully this will get pulled up higher.

[0rganism]

64. well, since this directly impacted interstate commerce, the fed certainly has an interest

of course, any federal prosecution of Christie or his underlings will be decried by the RWNJs as "Obama persecuting his political rivals" or some such crap.

[pnwmom]

18. +1. n/t

[sabrina 1]

75. And yet, we have learned since then, that many of the victims of Sandy were very angry at

Christie despite the public photo ops. Maybe if we had some dedicated Dems who could follow these stories we might not have fallen for the 'but Sandy' story.

It really is simple. All of us seem to get it. Democrats should not abandon their own candidates and endorse Republicans. In fact when that happens in NJ there are supposed to be consequences but oddly enough there have been few if any consequences for those Dems who supported Christie, the Republican over Buono, the Democrat.

Just saw her on Chris Hayes. She confirms what many thought back then, she had no money and the party would not help her, claiming, she says, to be 'frightened of retaliation because Christie had a reputation of doing that'. Well, how sad. We are rerpesented by cowards it seems. ONE man was not afraid of them and he refused to support Christie. If only the rest of them, including the DNC who seem clueless wrt to politics, had had the fortitude to vote their consciences.

[Dawson Leery]

8. EVERYONE of them MUST face a primary challenge!

[JustAnotherGen]

34. Not gonna happen here

Just not gonna happen. I think some of the Indies will have a better shot at those offices. Us is pissed . . .

[Zorra]

11. Losers, every last one of them. nt

[yellowcanine]

12. How's that Christie endorsement working out for you?

[rocktivity]

13. To all the New Jersey Democratic Mayors who supported Buono over Christie...

Last edited Sat Jan 11, 2014, 08:43 PM - Edit history (2)

Are you willing to testify as to what Christie threatened to do to you if you DIDN'T support him?


rocktivity

[pnwmom]

17. That's what I'd like to see -- intimidated Dems coming forward. n/t

[Lydia Leftcoast]

79. That is exactly the response that extortion victims should take

Not this, "Poor me, the bully took my lunch money" approach.

[WillyT]

14. GREAT POINT !!!

& Rec !!!

[rhett o rick]

15. Proud has nothing to do with this. It's politics. Some foolishly think that all Democrats

are goodness. They are sooo very wrong. They are looking for the simple way, the way that doesnt require thinking.

[pnwmom]

16. I wonder what kind of threats and intimidation they were exposed to?

Even Sokolovich backed off after those first rumors, saying that it wasn't to his interest, to Fort Lee's interest, to say more.

[Firebrand Gary]

19. Egg on their faces! Shame, shame on them! nt

[jsr]

20. They sure acted like a bunch of scaredy cats

Pathetic.

[lostincalifornia]

21. I will tell them to go f**k themselves, and join another party, we don't need them

[ScottyEss]

23. A D is a D. We shouldn't bash our own.

[Ikonoklast]

24. Who's "we"? You got a mouse in your pocket?

Fuck any N.J. Democrat that enabled that asshole Christie.

The mayor of Ft. Lee has more stones than all of those cowardly shits put together.

[ScottyEss]

53. No mouse, more likely a rat.

[Ikonoklast]

55. Enjoy your stay.

[ScottyEss]

56. I'm sure it will be fun but short-lived

[Ikonoklast]

57. Glad to see someone that ha the strength of his convictions.

Like all those sticking to the sinking ship called the Republican Party.

[ScottyEss]

58. I don't fully understand.

[Cha]

82. Mayor Mark Sokolich is awesome.. I would add Mayor Steven Fulop

of Jersey City, too. Although I don't know that much about him..

"Christie’s “inaccurate claims”: Jersey City Mayor slams governor’s honesty after press conference"

"In one of the e-mails released Wednesday, reported the Jersey Journal, Christie Appointee David Wildstein is asked about the Port Authority’s answer to alarms raised by Fort Lee’s mayor, and responds, “Radio silence. His name comes right after Mayor Fulop.” Like Fort Lee’s Mayor Mark Sokolich, Jersey City’s Fulop did not endorse Christie’s re-election. The Journal reported that Mayor Fulop responded to an inquiry by texting a reporter that Wildstein’s e-mail suggests he is “Enemy Number 1.”

"As the Journal noted, when asked about Fulop at his Thursday press conference, Christie said “You bet I have” been angry with him, and that “Mayor Fulop seems to have a lot of disagreements with a lot of people,” but that he and his administration “continue to work” with him. Christie noted a Wednesday meeting between Fulop and New Jersey officials regarding funding to purchase Hurricane Sandy-damaged property."

http://www.salon.com/2014/01/09/christies_inaccurate_claims_jersey_city_mayor_slams_governors_honesty_after_press_conference/

Oh, and fucking Christie doesn't.. "have a lot of disagreements with a lot of people"?

Yes, I agree.. all those dems who enabled asshole Christie.. are not much better. They may have had a hand in bringing his whole perch in the clouds down though. the harder they fall.



http://www.hudsonreporter.com/view/full_story/20553591/article-Race-to-the-stop-Fulop--Healy-to-introduce-competing-pay-to-play-amendments-this-week-

"Steven Fulop is a member of Mayors Against Illegal Guns." He's Romanian!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Fulop

Don't mind me.. I just got carried away researching a Democratic Mayor who opposes Christie.. gotta love 'em.

[Fumesucker]

46. And D politicians definitely shouldn't endorse Republicans

[ScottyEss]

54. What about bipartisanship?

[markpkessinger]

129. What about it?

Bipartisanship does not mean endorsing the other parties' candidates nor their agenda. It is, rather, about elected leaders of both parties, once elections are over, being willing to come together in a genuine spirit of compromise. But it certainly does not mean, and has never meant, that one should feel compelled to view the opposing party's candidatss, and its agenda, in a favorable light.

[markpkessinger]

132. Are you seriously suggesting Democrats should abide by Reagan's "11th Commandment?"

Reagan's '11th Commandment' was: "Never speak ill of a fellow Republican." Sounds an awful lot like, "A D is a D. We shouldn't bash our own."

I would add that Reagan's 11th Commandment played no small role in the ascendancy of the lunatic fringe of the GOP, as Republicans stood by and politely refused to "bash one of their own," even when many of these "ones of their own" were raging idiots. The day the Democratic Party demands that I walk in lockstep with every elected Democrat, regardless of those elected Democrats' actions and policies, is the day I will cease to be a member of the Democratic Party. As Will Rogers famously quipped, "I do not belong to any organized political party. I am a Democrat.?

[beachbum bob]

26. Obvious that they all were fearful of retaliations

I am sure they may start talking about it as christie is about to go down. Christie made an example of Ft Lee Mayor....this is gangster mentality, once the floodgate lets lose its all coming down.

sooner or later the Feds will be involved as its obvious public corruption at the highest level with abuse of power.


the drama is only starting

[B Calm]

30. Hopefully some of them will grow a spine!

But I won't hold my breath. .

[malaise]

32. Well now that the cork is out of the bottle

Sandy money may do some talking

Follow the Sandy money!!! This gets sweeter by the minute

[Laxman]

38. Very Little Has Been Spent This Far

That's good and bad. You need to make sure that its spent appropriately, but it also needs to start getting out there. The problem is that the Christie administration hasn't been holding back to make sure the money is spent wisely, its being controlled to maximize political benefit for Christie.

[malaise]

39. Who was promised what?

Word is the new speaker is more favorable to Christie - is that true?

[Laxman]

43. Yes it Is. A little complicated but...

It has to do with the democrats from the Hoagie eating, Wawa shopping Eagles fans part of the state cutting deals with some of the developer owned democrats from the Sub eating, Quick Check shopping Giants fans part of the state. However, if this reveals some weakness in Christie, the Chamber of Commerce, Business and Industry Association, NAIOP, Home Builders Association alliance that created him will cut their losses. In that case, he may no longer enjoy such a cozy relationship with the south jersey democrats.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

36. How you enjoyin' those kneecaps? Heh? Heh?

Heh?

Remember that when your joggin'.

[ProSense]

50. It's time for

a federal investigation and Christie's resignation.

Barbara Buono Rips Democrats For 'Betrayal' In Race Against Christie...(updated)

“The Democratic political bosses — some elected and some not — made a deal with this governor despite him representing everything they’re supposed to be against," Buono said. "They didn't do it to help the state. They did it out of a desire to help themselves politically and financially. But we did it our way and I’m proud of that.”

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023988674

N.J. Democratic Party Blasts Christie's 'Vindictive Political Motivations'
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/john-currie-christie-bridge

Fallout continues from Christie bridge scandal
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024303626

Former Christie Ally, Opponent Always Knew Governor 'Would Implode At Some Point'
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024303645

Barbara Buono: Christie Running A 'Paramilitary Operation'

New Jersey state Sen. Barbara Buono (D), who lost last year's gubernatorial election to Gov. Chris Christie (R), accused him Wednesday of running a "paramilitary operation."

Buono was referenced in documents obtained by TPM and other news outlets that connected one of Christie's closest aides to lane closures on the George Washington Bridge that gridlocked Fort Lee, N.J. A side effect of the closures was that it was difficult for children to get to school; the documents showed an individual corresponding with one of Christie's appointees to the authority that oversees the bridge, joking that the lane closures affected the "children of Buono voters."

“When I heard about it when it initially surfaced in September, I knew it was an act of political retribution,” Buono told the Daily Beast. “And to suggest that Christie wasn’t aware and didn’t direct it, I thought was ludicrous at the time.”

“This is a guy who runs a paramilitary operation,” she added. “His people don’t sneeze without checking with him first. But I think what really was the most damning [revelation] was the cavalier attitude that these folks had about subjecting children and the public to public safety hazards. These are terrible people, and the ringleader is Chris Christie.”

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/buono_christie_paramilitary_operation

[LynneSin]

59. Personally I think their names should be posted so we can help vote them out next election

Nuff said!

[Bluenorthwest]

60. Also the DNC which left Buono hanging.

What burns me is the folks who excused and executed the abandonment of Buono did so, as they always do, with lots of blustery rhetoric about how they know the future, 'she can't win' they say 'those with deep pockets know this'.
But did they know that Christie would be mired in scandal shortly after the election, toxic, poisonous?

[Beacool]

61. Some liked the guy, others may have been afraid of the playground bully.

I think that they attempted to make the mayor of Fort Lee an example to deter others from even thinking about opposing the governor's wishes. Mob mentality. I don't know whether Christie knew exactly what his aide and the others were up to, but he must have encouraged that kind of behavior. This must have been a pattern for them. If someone doesn't comply, make them an offer that they can't refuse. If they still don't acquiesce, then make them pay a steep price as a message to others that there will be consequences if they don't support the governor.

[indepat]

66. Killing the tunnel should have killed off Christie politically imo,

but the good people of New Jersey must have though otherwise and are reaping their reward.

[CreekDog]

73. kick

yes. good question.

[winstars]

99. Corrupt Dems, in the words of Al Pacino in "Scent of a Woman"-------

"Well Fuck You Too!!!"

[DonCoquixote]

126. a fucking men

There is no way CC could have captured NJ if he did not have the support of a bunch of goddamned Reagan Democrats! The same Reagan Democrats that want Queen Hillary on the throne so she could finish off scarficing us to the poltical Gods, so that they may be the new right wing!

[woo me with science]

127. K&R