This comment just rubbed me the wrong way...

[liberal N proud]

"I operate heavy machinery and make that... how does a fry cook get that?" said Carole Holfeld, a 39-year-old forklift operator and single mother from Tacoma, Wash. Making $16 an hour at Mega Brands, where she's worked for seven years, she doesn't think waiters deserve to make more than she does. What if the minimum wage is raised to $15? "Zero tip," she said.



This from a story about opponents to raising the wages.

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/consumer/raise-minimum-wage-foes-say-theyll-stop-tipping-n39011


I would love to respond to that asshole! They handle and prepare your food, that's why! Lame ass excuse for not tipping the server. My guess it they already don't tip.

[jberryhill]

1. I would suggest just reading it, and not applying it topically

[Warren DeMontague]

82. I love you.

I just wanted to get that out in the open.

[jberryhill]

85. Now I'll NEVER get a cake in Arizona

[Warren DeMontague]

87. I hear the best ones are the ones they make at the teabagger concentration camps.

C'est Magnifique!

[jmowreader]

108. Come to Idaho, and I'll be happy to make you a penis-shaped cake

Would you like it in Democrat size (13x9 cake cut in half and layered, plus three 9-inch two-layer cakes arranged strategically) or Teabagger size (three Hostess Cup Cakes and a Twinkie)?

[jberryhill]

109. If you knew I was coming...

I've been to Paris and Pocatello!

[jmowreader]

110. When you do Champagne and Coeur d'Alene, let me know

[Warren DeMontague]

115. I thought Idaho WAS a penis-shaped cake!

well, it sure is pointy.

[jmowreader]

116. Shame on you

It's logging boot shaped. The Mormons wouldn't all flock here if it was penis shaped.

[Brickbat]

2. The response is, "Why not build yourself up, instead of bringing others down? Maybe you're not

making enough, either."

[cyberswede]

6. Yep.

Same as when people try to tear down public employees because they "make too much."

[RC]

59. I remember back before george w bu$h readjusted the economy, government workers made less, often way

less than the private sector. It was the crashing of the economy, outsourcing and the outright elimination of Living-Wage-Jobs, that suddenly government workers were being over paid.
No, they weren't. They are still being underpaid because Congress wouldn't fund some law or the other that would allow federal government employees pay to catch up with inflation since 1950 or some such date.
I can't find any particulars on that at the moment.

[Blue_Tires]

25. Which is why I *NEVER* understood the logic behind the

anti-union or anti-gummit employee ragefests

Of course, I promise you if that person is a sports fan he's all for his favorite athlete or coach making all they can...

[Enthusiast]

70. The ragefests are being cultivated by the corporations.

The logic behind them is more profit.

[ScreamingMeemie]

89. Nope. I love me my sportsers; however, I think they are all overpaid.

Your statement isn't true for a lot of people. Nobody is worth that much, no matter how much I like them.

[jeff47]

32. Jealousy is much easier to use than logic when marketing a product. (nt)

[Brickbat]

3. Also, LOL at "forklift" = "heavy machinery."

[sharp_stick]

7. Me too

I had to laugh at that one. As though running a forklift around is any more difficult than food service.

[TexasTowelie]

14. Running a forklift means that someone is sitting on their butt all day.

Serving food requires movement (exercise), interacting with customers and handling other people's money (or credit card). It can also be more mentally taxing than a job as a forklift operator.

[MicaelS]

61. You do not know what you are talking about.

Read my other post.

[MicaelS]

42. You are full of crap. People are killed driving forklifts.

They can kill others. If think driving a 'lift is a piece of cake, you're wrong. You have to have a forklift license to drive a 'lift. You have to be certified on each TYPE of 'lift in order to drive it safely.

Forklifts weigh much more than cars or trucks. They have to in order to be able to move heavy loads. They operate differently from cars or trucks. You have to mindful all the time driving one, in order not to cause damage to equipment or injury to your co-workers or yourself.

I have had a 'lift license for over 12 years. I know how dangerous they can be. Fortunately no one has ever been killed or serious injured in our facility.

http://www.toolboxtopics.com/Gen%20Industry/Forklift%20Fatalities.htm

FORKLIFT FATALITIES

OSHA estimates forklifts cause about 85 fatal accidents per year; 34,900 accidents result in serious injury; and 61,800 are classified as non-serious. According to the Industrial Truck Association, there are about 855,900 forklifts in the U.S. Therefore, over 11% of all forklifts will be involved in some type of accident each year (assuming only one accident per forklift).

The ITA also reports that the useful life of a lift truck is about 8 years. This means that about 90% of all forklifts will be involved in some type of accident during their useful life--again assuming only one accident per forklift. If you operate this equipment, there is a possibility that you may have an accident at some point during your career. To help reduce the possibility of being injured, it's important to understand where and how these accidents occur.

Studies show that many of these accidents could have been prevented by better training. No one starts out with the innate knowledge, skills, and abilities to safely operate a forklift. As OSHA requires, drivers must be properly trained to do so. The lesson to be learned is, operating a forklift without training is dangerous and can even be fatal to you or other employees working in the area..

Training can also prevent or reduce the severity of an accident related to the stability of a lift truck traveling with an elevated load. Keep the load as low as possible to increase vehicle stability and to help prevent tip-over accidents. Even if drivers ignore this rule, and the vehicle tips over, injuries are usually minor if they stay with the vehicle instead of jumping off. The normal tendency is for a person to jump downward, so the driver lands on the floor or ground--usually directly into the path of the overhead guard. The most common result is a crushing injury to the head, neck, or back where the overhead guard strikes the employee.

http://ohsonline.com/articles/2013/09/01/death-by-forklift-is-really-the-pits.aspx

Death by Forklift is Really the PITs

By Chuck Paulausky
Sep 01, 2013

The owner of a machinery and equipment training school was killed while filming a forklift safety video. He was thrown from the forklift and crushed. The investigation revealed the fatality was due to driver error, high speed over rough terrain, and an unused seat belt. Unfortunately, this type of forklift fatality is all too common. OSHA statistics indicate that there are roughly 85 forklift fatalities and 34,900 serious injuries each year, with 42 percent of the forklift fatalities from the operator's being crushed by a tipping vehicle.

OSHA has established detailed regulations for operation of "powered industrial trucks," which include all types of material-handling vehicles, from forktrucks to powered pallet jacks to order-pickers. The Powered Industrial Truck (PIT) regulations can be found at 29 CFR 1910.178. Incorporated into the regulation by reference, ANSI B56.1-1969 covers the design and construction requirements for PITs.

The OSHA regulation provides specific designations for PITs based on the type of power source and safeguards. In addition, "designated locations" are identified, such as hazardous atmospheres. The regulation also covers a variety of other topics, including operation, maintenance, and regular, documented inspections of the vehicles. One critical part of the regulation covers operator training.

PITs can be especially unforgiving under the wrong conditions. Operators need to understand that PITs are very different from regular vehicles in the way they maneuver and are balanced. Employees who have never driven a PIT will not have the innate knowledge and skill to drive one without training. For this reason, much of the required training is focused on operation, load capacity, stability, and operating limitations.

More at link.

[redqueen]

50. Thank you. nt

[hibbing]

69. A thank you from me too

[TexasTowelie]

81. And bullshit back to you. People are killed and injured working in the food service industry also.

There are plenty of hazards in all trades. There are reasons why minors are not allowed to use certain equipment (e.g. meat slicing machines).

There were 6 deaths in 2012. Check page 7 of the pdf which is for Florida only:
http://www.bls.gov/ro4/cfoifl.pdf

Furthermore, if the food service workers aren't aware of safety precautions they can also kill their customers. They also experience exposure to violence because of dissatisfied customers and the occasional gun incidents.

FWIW, I'm grateful that you have not had any losses at your employer--probably, due to the heightened emphasis on safety in those trades compared to the food service industry since some people consider them as unskilled labor and therefore, expendable. Are you one of those people?

[MicaelS]

92. No, I'm not.

What I am is a person who doesn't like people who denigrate working class people's jobs with comments like "sitting on their butt all day". What you're really saying is forklift operators are lazy fucks, and food service workers are "real workers".

Frankly you sound like one of those white collar types who proclaim of auto workers, "All they do is turn a wrench all day, how much skill does that take? Why should they get paid a lot of money for that?"

You don't like what the woman in question said, fine. But don't use that as excuse to attack all people who work in the same type of job she works at.

[TexasTowelie]

103. You know what, I've seen people sit on their butts all day doing nothing in both blue collar

and white collar jobs. I know since I've worked both type of jobs. I also worked in the food service industry, so I do have the experience to offer an opinion.

I never worked in the auto industry, but I did take care of my own mechanical work on my vehicles until I moved into an apartment complex and the lease agreement prohibited extensive mechanical work in their parking lot. So while I wasn't paid, I do understand the difficulty of turning a wrench in hot and cramped conditions.

As far as your comments are concerned, it sure reads like you don't think that food service workers are real workers. The facts are that most food service workers are on their feet throughout their entire shifts and the working conditions are not any better than those found in a warehouse. It also seems like your statement is an attack on white collar workers. So if you are going to condemn someone for being disrespectful to certain groups of workers, make sure that look in the mirror while you do so.

I realize that you may not have liked my comment and I shouldn't have drawn generalizations about a specific group of workers, but I was responding to the OP and the woman mentioned in it. However, I didn't specifically say that you were lazy or make a personal attack against you like you did with the response of "your full of crap." I expressed my disagreement with your statement which is my right, just like you have the right to disagree with me. However, you don't have the right to personally attack me without expecting me to defend myself or my opinion.

[MicaelS]

105. You did see the point where I said "working class" right?

I'm a champion in the working class over the white collar class, and not ashamed or embarrassed to admit it.

Am I attacking white collar workers? Yes, I am. Because I have read that same exact comment on other websites I visit. Those websites are oriented toward white collar Computer / IT types because computers are one of my main hobbies. And unfortunately, those websites are a haven for RW Libertarians because it seems many IT types ARE RW Libertarians. They have little respect for, and many times outright contempt for "people who work with their hands." So that is part and parcel of my dislike of the white collar class. And the white collar class have repeatedly sold out working class people in this country. And they continue to do so. And some of them have a "D" after their name.

I have also seen the same type of disrespect right here on DU toward working class people, especially in the South, and yes Texas. Oh sure, many white collar Progressives consider themselves "champions" of the working class. Until that class lives in the South, or listens to Country Music, or watches NASCAR, or own guns.

Are food service workers disrespected, vastly underpaid, work in hot, dirty, hard, grueling, dangerous conditions in this country?

Absolutely to all of the above.

I respect food service workers because 40 years ago in San Antonio I was a dishwasher for $1.21 an hour. I was 16 years old, and I worked like a dog. I was wet, dirty, sweaty, and stank after 8 hours. IIRC, I took home $40 a week after taxes and SS. And in 40 fucking years that minimum cash wage hasn't even doubled.

That woman is an ignorant fool, because if heavy industry could get away with it, they would be paying her the same $2.13 wage that food service workers make. That woman's quote is typical of the disrespect toward food service workers in this country. And it is hypocritical on her part. And if I met her face to face I would tell her so.

[TexasTowelie]

106. I guess that the definition of "working class" is where we disagree.

I've always consider that I was part of the "working class" whether I was sweating in the sun outside a restaurant, delivering pizzas, operating a printing press, getting burned in the chemistry lab, or being tethered to a cubicle. It didn't matter if I was wearing a T-shirt or a suit & necktie, I always had to work since I was from a lower middle income family.

I consider myself as "fortunate" since I was able to do the work that I enjoyed and trained for after getting a college degree. However, as much as I liked certain aspects of my work, there were many other disappointing aspects ranging from difficult supervisors to incompetent colleagues that turned the job into a hellhole.

I can reassure you that my attitude towards other workers (and other people) was guided by some great advice that I received in my first interview after I received a college degree. The interviewer said that all workers from the top of the chain of command to the part-time help that emptied the trash can are real workers who take pride in their work and worthy of respect. I've tried to keep that in mind and respect that advice, even though some of the RWNJs called me a socialist or worse.

While we may disagree over the term "working class" at least we do agree on the sentiment you expressed in your final paragraph about the woman being an ignorant fool and that wouldn't change regardless of her choice of vocation.

[Marr]

11. lol, yeah.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

13. It would be pretty "heavy" if it slammed into you at full speed

No, it's not an earth mover. But then again, earth movers aren't hauling large pallets of goods in narrow warehouse aisles and around corners at pretty fast clip.

[Brickbat]

20. LOL.

[progressoid]

21. Not defending this douche but some forklifts are heavy machinery

Last edited Thu Feb 27, 2014, 04:36 PM - Edit history (1)

[RC]

65. It is heavy machinery.

Ever try to lift one?

[badtoworse]

4. So what would happen to the minimum wage for tipped employees?

[Bandit]

23. That hasn't been raised in thirty years, it is still $2.15

I doubt it will be raised now either.

[badtoworse]

24. Then the higher minimum wage would not apply to them

And there would be no basis for not tipping.

[Bluenorthwest]

28. Not in Washington State it's not

In WA, tipped minimum is the same as the untipped minimum, same thing in Oregon.

[Bandit]

33. Each state has their own minimums but I was referring to the Federal one

[trixicopper]

41. In Washington tipped employees make the same minimum wage

as everyone else $9.32 an hour. So most servers are already making more than this person.

[tridim]

5. Line cook was the hardest job I ever had.

I couldn't do it again at my age. It's hours and hours of pure non-stop stress, at least if the restaurant is busy.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

8. At bare minimum, you have to get certified as a fork lift operator

And it is a job with heavy focus on safety. It is typically easier to find someone to wait tables than it is to find a qualified fork lift operator. All are reasons the market for labor has placed higher price for hiring fork lift operators than wait staff.

That being said, her sentiment will naturally lead to increase in wages across the bottom end of wage earners.

[redqueen]

46. "Nonsense."

It is a violation of Federal law for anyone UNDER 18 years of age to operate a forklift or for anyone OVER 18 years of age who is not properly trained and certified to do so.

https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/poweredindustrialtrucks/

Takes less than a minute to look this shit up, but I guess bloviating about how since you don't already know it it must not be true takes even less effort.

[7962]

68. BOOM!

[11 Bravo]

43. PW, I'm often on your side; but I drove a fork lift in Chapel Hill, NC, to supplement ...

my GI Bill benefits for a couple of summers. I can tell you that they didn't even ask me if I knew how to operate a bicycle before handing me the keys to the lift.
Of course, things may have changed since the mid-70s, I'm not sure.

[Enthusiast]

74. It remained that way in Ohio into the late 1980s.

I got next to zero training. I found I didn't really need any.

[redqueen]

49. +1

[Rider3]

9. Rubs me the wrong way, too

There's something about someone who thinks they're above another is what puts me off. She probably couldn't even handle the line cook's job. That's one demanding position. That comment confirms to me that she is a petty, uncaring individual (and who probably voted GOP).

[JHB]

10. Not to mention... "Maybe you should be making more than you do now"...

"They pay you 15 now because if you leave, what are your options? Odds are they pay less. A low minimum depresses all wages, including yours."


And, frankly, I'm in favor of reducing or doing away with tipping in favor of decent pay for the workers.

[JJChambers]

12. Hmmmm, living wage for ALL

Operating a forklift is one of the easiest things I've ever had to learn. I still can't cook worth a damn. Support a living wage for ALL.

[daleanime]

39. Amen....

[fleabiscuit]

79. YES! 1000% YES!

~eom

[TBF]

15. I really wonder how many of those comments

are posted by random folks as opposed to folks hired by the Koch Bros (or their PR firms). Honestly, they will do anything they can to pit workers against each other so that we make no progress whatsoever. I think everyone should keep that in mind while reading such comments. Not that we shouldn't respond - but don't assume it's really someone who works for a living making that comment.

[dionysus]

29. sadly, i know some family members who just that stupid. they see anything that helps people less off

than they are (and often people as less off as THEY THEMSELVES are!) as someone ripping them off (in some vague way they can't ever actually explain).

so they'd vote against raising the minimum wage, even if they were making minimum wages.

it's hard to wrap one's head around their way of thinking... it's like some bizarre fealty to rich people, it's crazy...

then throw in some Koch trolls on top of that, spouting the same nonsense (but knowing full well it's bullshit), and you get the icing on the stupidity cake.

[Enthusiast]

78. You said it. It's a widespread phenomenon.

Low wage workers are worried to death that someone else will get a raise or get food stamps or an unemployment extension.

This shit is being fostered by the right wing through Fox and Limbaugh.

"it's like some bizarre fealty to rich people"

"you get the icing on the stupidity cake"

Excellent, dionysus.

[dionysus]

86. why thank you!

[Enthusiast]

75. We know for a fact that these discussion groups

are populated by paid right wing sock puppets.

The Kochs and others like them have untold millions to spend trying to pit us against one another. And it's working like a charm. That's why they need their fucking taxes raised by many %.

[TBF]

98. Agree 100% nt

[hughee99]

16. I understand why this bothers you, but from a practical standpoint,

hasn't one of the biggest arguments for tipping waitstaff been that they don't make anywhere near what a regular job does so they rely on tips to make up the difference. If they start making the same as everyone else, that argument goes away. Now it becomes, why do I tip the people who handle my food and not the people who (do something else) and you get into a "whose job is more important" argument that no one is going to win.

I'm all for raising the minimum wage and favor paying waitstaff the same wages anyone else is entitled to, but I understand that it's going to hurt the tips, and I understand why.

[woo me with science]

17. Divide and conquer.

We are propagandized to fight one another over the scraps, while the obscenely wealthy walk away with everything. Robert Reich nailed it here.

Get the Reds to fight the Blues.
Get the unionized to fight the non-unionized.
Get public employees to fight private employees.
Get native-born Americans to fight immigrants...
Set the poor against one another.

Ask yourself, "Why did THAT quote make it into the news?"


http://m.

&feature=player_embedded

[Enthusiast]

80. +1 an entire shit load!

[rrneck]

18. A forklift ain't a Boeing 747. nt

[Token Republican]

22. Insufficient Data

Last edited Thu Feb 27, 2014, 03:50 PM - Edit history (1)

1/3 PICTURE OF CMNDR DATA DELETED WITH "INSUFFICIENT DATA" CAPTION DELETED TO BE ON SAFE SIDE. Google "insufficient data" and choose images to see it if desired.


I understand why the statement would anger some. But there's not enough information to determine if the complaint is justified. From the article itself, it looks like there's a very good chance the person who made the statement came from some financial hardship.

She's a single mother, who works at that job for seven years, learned a skill, and is currently earning more than minimum wage.

From her viewpoint, increasing minimum wage to about what she's earning now means all her efforts to get ahead were a waste of time, especially if her child spent time in day care while she was working or learning how to do her job.

I get why her statements could rub people the wrong way, but I don't get the anger towards her, especially if they were made out of frustration.

[jeff47]

34. If her job truly is worth more than minimum wage, then her income would be going up too.

She's getting paid $16/hr, about $8/hr more than minimum wage. That premium exists because of skill and demand for that skill.

The need for that premium does not go away if minimum wage goes up.

So if minimum wage goes up to $15, she should expect to get paid around $23/hr. Because she'd still be worth that premium. (It's not linear, but close 'nuff for this discussion).

[fleabiscuit]

47. That hasn't ever been the case for wages going up. It's a myth.

Real wages for most workers have not gone up for several decades. When they did it was worker organizing that did it, or law.

[jeff47]

52. No, you're talking about a different statistics.

Minimum wage hikes have always raised wages for near-minimum-wage workers. Being paid $2/hr more to be a supervisor was still worth $2/hr more.

That increase breaks down the further away from minimum wage. Someone making $100k will not see their wages go up.

But you're talking about wages not keeping up with inflation - that's why you're talking about real wages. That doesn't have any direct connection to minimum wage going up. Because minimum wage hasn't been keeping up with inflation either.

Raising the minimum wage greatly helps the lowest-paid workers. It won't help the middle class, because they aren't the lowest-paid workers. That requires much more complex solutions.

[fleabiscuit]

63. No. I'm talking about minimum wage.

Minimum wage has never been a driver for anyone's wages being higher, or going higher. It is a myth. Higher wages has always been driven by availability of workers, organizing, and law.

[jeff47]

77. Then you're wrong.

Minimum wage has never been a driver for anyone's wages being higher, or going higher. It is a myth.

Then reality is showing a terrible bias towards that myth.

Minimum wage provides a floor, it does not provide a middle class. That comes from organized labor.

But that floor still exists, and still exerts effects on other low-paid workers. If you run a fast food joint, you are not going to pay your supervisors, skilled workers and new hires the same wage. Because your supervisors and skilled workers will find a different fast food joint to work at. So you pay a premium to those workers, and you still have to pay a premium if minimum wage goes up.

We are not going to rebuild the middle class back to its 1960s glory by raising the minimum wage. Minimum wage increases do not have much effect that far up the income ladder.

What we can do is make it not quite so shitty to be paid minimum wage.

[fleabiscuit]

91. You're arguing against your own arguments.

Not just on this post either. If a company could buy you for $1.00 an hour, that's what they would pay. The law sets the minimum, the scarcity, what you're calling skills, is what will drive an employer to pay more. So will organizing.

Unless they are your father or mother in-law, then you might get son-in-law, or daughter-in-law pay.

[jeff47]

100. No, that would be you.

The law sets the minimum, the scarcity, what you're calling skills, is what will drive an employer to pay more.

Which is exactly what I've been saying. They're paying an $8/hr premium for this forklift operator. Post-minimum-wage-hike, she's still worth an $8/hr premium.

[fleabiscuit]

104. Doh!

The minimum wage has nothing to do with it. That “$8/hr premium” is an arbitrary number, not tied to the minimum wage. Why would it be? That makes no more sense than ‘raising the minimum wage brings everyone else down.’ Yet they are exactly the same argument.

Workers are a resource and hired for the least amount companies can pay someone skilled enough to do the job. Unless the particular company feels some kind of community obligation. As for inflation, my old mill also paid forklift drivers $15-$16 dollars an hour. Back in 1987. Then closed two years later from depleting their raw materials. Even professional occupations are under assault by the wage hammer. From programmers, to airline pilots, to teachers, to welders, most everyone is being hired in new at lower wages. It’s sad, they have people going at the throats of anyone making more than them AND the poor on the street corners. WTF is with that!

[Token Republican]

62. Not necessarily

If her company is awash in money, then in theory, they'd want to keep a skilled employee by paying her more than close to minimum wage.

If her company is just breaking even, then increasing her pay may simply not be an option.

Not every company is making record profits.

[jeff47]

72. Whether or not her company is profitable doesn't change what the job is worth.

It only changes what that company pays.

If skilled forklift operators are worth $8/hr over minimum wage now, they're still worth $8/hr more after minimum wage goes up. If her company tries to cheap out, it is likely some other company will still offer an $8/hr premium.

This is the mechanism by which the linearity breaks down - if her company cheaps out, another company may try to get a bargain by paying $7/hr more. She takes it because of the higher real pay, but did not get the full benefit of the minimum wage hike.

[Token Republican]

94. Respectfully disagree

Our views reflect a fundamental difference on how wages are viewed.

One side (dare I say the right side, pun intended) would say that her job is worth based upon her value to the company. Her pay would be justified by showing that the company makes at least $16 and hour for every hour she works. If the company grows and needs better paid fork lift operators to further allow additional profit, then in theory (conceded that practice does not always equal theory) her wage would increase correspondingly.

The other side (the non right side, pun intended again) is essentially arguing from a command economy perspective; that using minimum wage as a baseline, someone with X skill is worth minimum wage plus X and someone with a Y skill is worth minimum wage plus Y.

While I disagree with your premise, I am open to understanding your point of view. To that end, one specific question would be extremely helpful. You made the assumption that skilled forklift operators are worth $8 more than minimum wage. How exactly is the $8 determined? Because you later said that if minimum wage increase to $15 an hour, forklift operators should make $23/hour.

Contrast with the market view, by saying that skilled forklift operators make $16 an hour because they are worth that much to the company.

The way I see it, market driven wages is a very different animal than minimum wage. Minimum wage is essentially an arbitrary amount set by the government. This amount might very well be justified socially, but it has no bearing on the value a minimum wage employee brings to a company economically. Left to their own devices, many employees have exploited and continue to exploit minimum wage workers, simply because they are easily replaced. But that's worthy of a whole different thread.

The point here is when a minimum wage figure is mixed with a wage set more or less by market forces, the two don't always mesh, and I'm trying to understand your line of thinking.

[MicaelS]

44. That picture of Data is causing my

ESET Security to react. It is blocking the full image. I do no know that is wrong, but I suggest you delete it to avoid possibly infecting people's computers who may not have good AV software.

[Token Republican]

53. Deleted

just to be safe, but the picture was only the top part of Star Trek's Commander Data's head. Hence the "insufficient data" caption on the picture.

[MicaelS]

60. Thank you.

That did it. ESET no longer alerting.

[edhopper]

26. Try this

I am much better at what I do than the assholes on Wall Street who loose their clients money and still get upper 6 figures.
I make below the nat avg income.

Let's really talk about parity then.

[B2G]

27. I would still tip, but

not the 20% that I currently do.

[Adrahil]

36. Me neither.... I'm a generous tipper partly because I know they get paid crap...

The only time my "generous tipper" reputation really helps me is at my regular joints. It is a LITTLE funny to see the senior waiters take over my table regardless of where it is in the restaurant.

I do tip well because I know they get paid crap. If they are not longer paid crap, I would definitely alter my tipping strategy.

[Orrex]

30. Anyone arguing against raising minimum wage...

is arguing in favor of depressing their own wage.


Myopic idiocy.

[Demo_Chris]

31. How would the critics here feel if we raised wait staff to 15 while lowering teachers to match...

Or is that somehow different?

[jeff47]

35. In any job, you pay a premium for training and skill.

Waitstaff doesn't require much training, and it's possible to get by with very little skill.

Teachers require lots of training. That's going to result in higher wages.

That doesn't make teachers "better". That makes them more highly trained. Just like doctors aren't "better" than teachers, just more highly trained.

[Adrahil]

37. Concur.... though I have had waiters that were definitely what I'd call "skilled."

[Demo_Chris]

38. Correct. But those criticizing this woman seem to feel HER training and skill are irrelevant...

She earns 16 an hour because her skills are difficult to acquire and valuable. Relatively few can do it or no one would pay that much for it.

[jeff47]

40. No, we're criticizing her because she doesn't realize that training premium would still exist.

If she's getting $8/hr above minimum wage now, she should expect to keep getting $8/hr above minimum wage after minimum wage goes up. Her training and skill are still worth $8/hr over untrained/unskilled workers.

(It's not really linear, but close enough at that end of wages for this discussion)

[Demo_Chris]

51. It doesn't actually work that way...

And if it did, thanks to price inflation, the new higher wage would be worth no more than the current minimum wage is worth today. In any case, raising the minimum will not result in an across the board pay raise for all American workers. But then maybe I am wrong... so let's just raise the minimum to whatever teachers are paid. The newly minted high school age McDonald's floor mopper can earn the same as his instructors at school. Why not?

Or maybe this woman, who is obviously pretty fucking good at her job if she earns that much, has a point. Maybe the problem isn't the wage floor, and maybe dragging everyone back isn't the solution. Maybe the answer is more jobs competing for labor, rather than too much labor fighting over too few jobs.

[jeff47]

66. That's why I said it isn't linear.

raising the minimum will not result in an across the board pay raise for all American workers.

Which is why I said it isn't linear. Raising minimum wage increases the wages for people getting paid near minimum wage. Being paid $2/hr more to be a supervisor is still worth $2/hr.

That relationship breaks down the further from minimum wage. Someone making $100k/yr isn't going to see any direct effect. The relationship breaks down somewhere in "middle class".

And if it did, thanks to price inflation, the new higher wage would be worth no more than the current minimum wage is worth today.

Except history did not start today. We've raised minimum wage before. It hasn't caused an equal inflation boost.

The only nice thing about minimum wage being stuck for so damn long is we got to run a bunch of natural experiments. Raising minimum wage didn't cause inflation in states that raised it. In fact, there's a lovely article comparing the prices of McDonalds food in Eastern Washington and Western Idaho. WA raised their minimum wage, ID didn't. Same prices. That pattern repeated decade after decade, state after state.

Don't get me wrong, a massive raise ($100/hr) would be inflationary. But we have not seen any inflation caused by the kinds of increases we're talking about.

The newly minted high school age McDonald's floor mopper can earn the same as his instructors at school. Why not?

Because the teacher requires more training than the McDonald's floor mopper. That results in a higher wage. Usually beyond the point where minimum wage hikes affect salary.

Or maybe this woman, who is obviously pretty fucking good at her job if she earns that much, has a point. Maybe the problem isn't the wage floor, and maybe dragging everyone back isn't the solution. Maybe the answer is more jobs competing for labor, rather than too much labor fighting over too few jobs.

I must commend you for placing so much wrong in a single paragraph. It's an impressive achievement.

Increasing the minimum wage does not drag everyone back. It never has. Her skills rate an $8/hr premium above minimum wage. Her skills will still rate an $8/hr premium after the minimum wage hike. She is not stuck making the same wage she currently makes.

Additionally, the way you get more jobs competing for labor is to get more money into consumer's hands. By, for example, raising the minimum wage. That way the McDonald's floor mopper has more money to spend. He'll spend all of it, because saving is non-existent at that end of the income spectrum. That increased demand will require more jobs to satisfy the demand.

[dionysus]

84. pwnage. nice.

[Demo_Chris]

93. response....

You say it isn't linear, but that is an admission that her position has merit. Her skills are currently worth twice the minimum. After the mentioned increase she will see her pay reduced back down to minimum, but this is apparently irrelevant to you because she might eventually see some of this back. If this is fair in regards to an equipment operator, why not a teacher? Why not set the new improved minimum to match the average salary of the teacher? The teacher won't see her salary adjusted to compensate, not in a linear manner, but according to you that's okay, so why the opposition? Is the teacher salary special to you in a way that an equipment operators salary is not?

Understand that you are already doing just that, only instead of a FULL teacher's salary you are saying that the pminimum should be some sizeable fraction thereof.

These are the contradictions that arise whenever an agent outside the supply / demand loop attempts to meddle. The government can no more decide what an hour of my time is worth than it can dictate the price of pa piece of art. My time is worth whatever amount I can trade it for. If I have valuable skills and people compete for my service I can ask for more. You want the government to negate this natural process by decree. And more, you seem to believe that they it's more jobscan do so in a way that only impacts those at the bottom.

The solution, as I said, is not dragging everyone else down to some new and improved minimum, it's more jobs creating competition for labor.

[jeff47]

101. Sooooo much wrong in one place.

Her skills are currently worth twice the minimum. After the mentioned increase she will see her pay reduced back down to minimum

Can you read?

It's a serious question. Because every single response to you in this thread has been about how her pay will go up.

Every.

Single.

Response.

And this:

If this is fair in regards to an equipment operator, why not a teacher? Why not set the new improved minimum to match the average salary of the teacher?

Has been answered.

In Every

Single

Response.

If this is fair in regards to an equipment operator, why not a teacher? Why not set the new improved minimum to match the average salary of the teacher?

Nope. It's just high enough that minimum wage increases have not historically translated directly to higher teacher salaries. As has been explained to you in every single response.

Teachers get paid more than forklift operators due to the higher training and scarcity. Thus the forklift operator in question can expect a bump in pay. But a typical teacher will not. Neither will a typical cab driver. Or a typical plumber. Or a typical software developer. Or a typical lawyer.

Sorry that reality gets in the way of your teacher bashing.

These are the contradictions that arise whenever an agent outside the supply / demand loop attempts to meddle. The government can no more decide what an hour of my time is worth than it can dictate the price of pa piece of art.

Ah, no wonder you're desperately trying to not understand. You're a libertarian. So history must be wrong, and your theories right.

The solution, as I said, is not dragging everyone else down

Good thing that isn't what a minimum wage hike does!

See, Mr. libertarian, time doesn't stop the instant after the minimum wage hike goes through. The forklift operator gets to use her ability to negotiate to change her wages. She's worth an $8/hr premium. If her current employer won't pay her $8/hr more, then she will find another employer willing to pay that premium. Because supply and demand still exist, even with minimum wage laws.

[ArtiChoke]

58. Jeff's right.

[dionysus]

88. that's the exact argument RWers use, your slip is showing...

[Demo_Chris]

97. Is it? How about adress the point...

The only person to even attempt to address it just admitted that down the road compensation for minimum wage increases was not linear. In any case I have to go try and earn some money. Bbl

[fleabiscuit]

99. I believe the RW term was used because it takes a special person

to view bringing up those on the bottom is lowering others.

[Demo_Chris]

111. So apply it consistently. That's what everyone is dancing around...

If you REALLY thought it didn't matter you would have no objection to the teacher salary proposal. But instead it's 'Teachers are skilled, they are special'. And that's true, they are special, they have skills and qualifications that have earned them a better salary. But so have others, and it pisses me off to see regular hard working people dismissed. Apparently to some here a heavy equipment operator might as well be a bathroom floor mopper for all the respect they get and salary these folks think they deserve. The woman under discussion earns 16 an hour, good money, and many here think she really deserves to make a little over minimum wage.

You know what will really happen if the minimum is raised to 15? She'll go to her boss complaining that the night janitor is now making what she is, and her boss will tell her that yeah, it sucks, but thanks to the minimum wage increase we can't afford to pay you more.

[fleabiscuit]

113. I never said those things.

Although I do hold teachers in very high regard. Each grade they teach is a specialty in it’s own right, from pre-school through college. Most are highly educated at a great cost to themselves. That speciality needs to be rewarded its due. Unfortunately, we have many people in the US who have moss growing where brains are supposed to grow.

What I’ve said here is that the minimum wage has no effect on raising others wages. What raises wages is demand for workers, law, and organizing.

Your premiss was probably badly flawed from the beginning. I suspect a teacher would generally earn more due to organizing than other factors in these times. However, a forklift driver making $15-$16/hr could also indicate an organizations help also. Most “drivers” are probably paid much less now and do other scut work when their driving skill are no longer needed. BTW, that $15-$16 hr is pretty darn close to what many new teacher hires make now. Whoop.

[MADem]

45. If that waiter doesn't handle her food properly, she could be crapping and puking and

not able to go to her "heavy machinery" job. She sits on her ass in a cab operating that forklift, she should try humping twenty pounds of plates and food on her shoulder for an eight hour shift, and walking/running MILES in the process. SHEESH!!!!!!!!

Here's the soundtrack to her life:

[liberal N proud]

48. And that is why we should be paying these people more!

MUCH MORE!

[MADem]

102. I agree. I think a fifteen dollar minimum wage is not unreasonable.

Even a twelve dollar one would be "a start." Not optimal, but it would help many improve their lives, and it would kickstart the economy so the MW could be elevated to above fifteen. Twenty two would be even better, but I doubt we'd see that. Not soon, anyway.

[My Good Babushka]

55. A higher minimum wage will put upward pressure on wages

Her wage will go up. Ask her to consider instead what would happen if the minimum wage was lowered or eliminated. Then they could drop her wage to six or seven dollars, and tell her to be grateful that she's making more than the $2 or whatever the waiters would be making at that point.

[gollygee]

56. That's kind of a sad attitude

If the minimum wage is lifted, her wage should also go up. Why do people feel the need to see other people struggle?

[AAO]

57. A forklift is certainly NOT heavy machinery.

Unless it's the biggest M/F of a forklift I've ever seen!

[ArtiChoke]

64. I tip because...

I'm trying to have a good time. I know the wait person is not having a good time, though sometimes they're very good at hiding it, which I appreciate. So I hope that by getting a little extra $ they're encouraged. My good time would be spoiled if I felt I hadn't left enough.

[Enthusiast]

67. I ran a forklift for a while. It wasn't very challenging.

Seriously. A guy told me, "This raises the forks up and down. And this is how you tilt the forks." That was the extent of my training. I didn't run into anything or have any problems.

I'm sure a forklift operator would suffer from back issues after years of riding a forklift with no suspension to speak of. But in my opinion a fry cook deserves every bit as much money as a forklift operator, probably more.

[NCTraveler]

71. Maybe she should be making more than servers.

That doesn't mean she shouldn't fight for them to make more money. She should fight for more money too.

[lostincalifornia]

73. If the person is not happy, then why doesn't the person become a waiter. Salaries are determined by

the particular company the person works for, it is also determined as you said by other factors in this case food preparation, which is public health

[Donald Ian Rankin]

90. Not under a minimum wage law, they aren't. N.T

[7962]

83. Of course it needs to go up. But I dont think it should go up a lot INSTANTLY.

I believe that would have a detrimental effect on the minimum wage jobs. If we just jump from 7.25 to 15.00 in one move, I can see myself ordering food from a touch screen instead of a person in no time. You cant just double the cost of labor instantly and not have a negative impact in a major way.
But I believe a measured rise would be absorbed much easier and thats the way we should go.

[arthritisR_US]

95. If her jealousy gets the better of her

she can always change professions.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

96. Is $15 on the table? I thought it was $10 being discussed?

[CANDO]

107. The correct answer is.....

raising the minimum wage tends to have an upward pressure on all other wage levels.

[frwrfpos]

112. too bad greed blinds people

The woman should be demanding more pay for a heavy equipment operator. In this cutthroat economy however, most people dont care about anything but themselves. Instead of competing against one another, how about cooperating together.

That would be too much like socialism I guess. Cant have that

[mountain grammy]

114. The woman is missing the whole point, that she's worked for 6 years

driving heavy equipment, and yes, this is skilled labor, and she should be making MORE than a paltry $16/hr. She should be glad if the minimum goes up, because she will go up. Why would someone take a higher risk, more skilled job instead of a less stressful job if they pay the same?
Raising the minimum wage raises everyone.. when wages are generally low, special skills, certifications, experience and high risk jobs are often undervalued also. The reality of the minimum wage is so awful, $14/hour sounds great! We've got to get past this mentality and raise the minimum wage.

[yurbud]

117. the person who said that is likely to give zero tip in any case.