I'm so very proud of DU's ability to deal with nuance (re: Ukraine).

[BelgianMadCow]

Your mainstream media start beating war drums (again). Your leaders start using cold war rhetoric. Your national debate and debate on DU is often mired in "with us or against us" rhetoric.

And yet, it would seem that you have no appetite for war in Ukraine. The fact that the ultra-nationalist and anti-semitic Svoboda and the neonazis of Pravy Sektor took a leading role in the protest and now hold the ministry for security does give you pause. You do see that an unelected government that declares the language of half the population illegal may not be the most democratic. Please note that when Klitschko went to defend the agreement brokered by the EU to the people on Maidan, Svoboda grabbed his mike and shouted for an ultimatum.

You haven't missed neocon Victoria Nuland's actions in the Ukraine. Like me, you probably wonder what exactly 5 billion bought (clearly not food stamps for americans in need). Protesters were being paid on Maidan.

So you don't have an appetite for more spreading of "democracy and freedom". You remember Iraq, and Kerry's statement strikes you as totally hollow.

Like me, you're no fan of the oligarch Putin, and you support people that rise up against oligarchs, as would seem to have been the case in Ukraine. Yet you aren't asleep about the possibility of colored revolutions.

Reasonable people can disagree about how colored that revolution exactly is, but they don't close their eyes to the fate of half the population. That means at least considering how they might feel, and reading beyond your own propaganda outlets.

It especially means not dividing the world in black and white, but considering nuance and complexity. I know the above does not apply to all, but at least to many, and I can't tell you how glad I am to see it. The world doesn't consist of rah-rah-patriots and Putin lovers, but of people, and we only stand a chance united.

[msongs]

1. what's the russian equivalent of lebensraum l:-) nt

[sabrina 1]

2. I read about the law from Kiev banning the language of half the people there. Saw interviews

with people who were very upset about it. What a stupid but very revealing thing to do. I'm not sure, and being closer you may be able to answer this, but it seemed to strike fear into the Southern and Eastern part of Ukraine, as well as Crimea (where most of the people apparently speak Russian) and caused tens of thousands to start protesting the Kiev 'authorities'.

Looks like the country is split already. Some defections also from the Ukraine Troops to Crimeans who oppose the new Government.

Thanks, sometimes it seems that DU has swung all the way to the right due to a few loud voices, but when things get this serious, it is clear that DU has not lost its reason after all. A vast majority oppose any intervention by us in Ukraine.

We opposed the Iraq War and many of us also opposed Afghanistan realizing none of these wars are ever about the people.

Unfortunately the Propagand from media caused 70% of Americans to support that illegal invasion.

Hopefully they have learned by now. But when I listen to the MSM I know that unless people research on their own, they will react to the propaganda. It is so biased in favor of 'intervening'.

[newthinking]

3. Absolutely it did (the language law change)

People seem to have difficulty thinking about it from their standpoint. But all of this was perfectly predictable.

People in Crimea see the Russian forces as there for their security. They are frightened. Many fled immediately after the overthrow.

I am convinced, that this was heading to violent civil war. Say what you will but that potential is tampered for the time being.

[BelgianMadCow]

4. Thanks, sabrina. Of course, we cannot forget about the minorities in Crimea like the Tatars, either

Like you say, protests against the new "government" started straight away in the east and south and understandably so. They were un- or underreported in much of your MSM (but much less so here).

But, taking a step further back, it's indeed the spirit of the old, war-resisting DU of Bush years that has been rearing its head here. Not just about Ukraine. Thank you, all.

[shaayecanaan]

5. there won't be an intervention

Even if the US know wasn't busted arse broke, which it is, the US can no more defeat Russia in the Ukraine than the Russians could beat the US in Tijuana.

Unfortunately being a large power gives you a fairly wide ambit to kick the shit out of little powers from time to time. If the US didn't get sanctioned over Grenada the Russians are unlikely to be sanctioned over the Ukraine.

[BelgianMadCow]

6. I don't think so either.

or it would have happened already.

Actually, a UN peacekeeping mission would be OK for me.

[shaayecanaan]

10. to keep them safe from the russians?

Bit like appointing a canary to keep you safe from a cat. I certainly would not want a mission like that.

[BelgianMadCow]

12. looks likes there's a lot of peace to be kept

between eastern and western Ukraine, and between various factions in Crimea, yes. I agree with you that the UN is an unlikely saviour. This thing looks set for UNSC deadlock. Then someone will propose an ultimatum whilst inspectors are still on the ground. Or something.

[L0oniX]

17. Poor Russia spends 90 billion a year on their military and we spend 680 billion...

and yet we would not win a war with them ...at least not one we would survive for long on a radioactive saturated planet.

[reformist2]

7. Thanks for that nuanced and complex summary. ;)

[Agony]

8. kick eom

[Adrahil]

9. A reasonably nuanced post...

... though like some others, it seems to ignore the fact that PUTIN is in fact the one that is "beating the war drums" by initiating military action. I feel confident it stating that damned few in the west were contemplating military action before ole Pootie decided to flex a little ex-Soviet muscle.

The man who wants a return to the Cold War is sitting in Moscow.

South Ossetia, Crimea.... who's the next lucky winner?

[malaise]

11. Excellent post

Rec

[stevenleser]

13. The ability of some to twist themselves into supporting an unprovoked war of aggression is something

Some here are just as guilty as the IOC of forgetting history.

It's very simple. Look up the word Anschluss.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

14. Go speak for yourself. Because you're sure as hell not speaking for me.

You claim you are talking "nuance," and your entire post regurgitates all the disinformation and propaganda about the situation in Ukraine--that the protests in Maidan Square were ultra-nationalist and neo-Nazi lead, that the new government is illegitimate, that protesters were paid off by west (WTF????). Frankly, it's an insult to my family members over there who did participate in protests, are not ultra-nationalist neo-nazis, and haven't seen a dime of CIA money.

But it's okay, because you're balanced. Because you say Putin is sort of, kind of a meanie. Duh.



Just for your education, Russian was not declared "illegal." I repeat, Russian was not declared "illegal."

I'm sure you aren't a Putin lover. It doesn't stop you from spouting his propaganda, though.

It's times like this when I miss DU's old Unrec button....

[sabrina 1]

15. What does the Corporate Media have to say about all this?

That's where we should go for truth and honesty, right?

What have they said about the law against the language so many people speak in Ukraine?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

16. Russian was not "outlawed" in Ukraine.

It's status as an official government language in certain regions was cancelled, but millions of Ukrainians will continue to speak Russian without any consequence.

[sabrina 1]

18. Looks like the people are pretty alarmed by this development. Apparently it drove them to appeal to

Russia to protect them from what they are now calling 'the illigitimate government in Kiev'. I wasn't sure of the timing of the news about the law in relation to the huge demonstrations against Kiev in the Sough and Eastern parts of Ukraine, and of course Crimea.

It certainly doesn't seem like a very 'uniting' thing to do in a country where people have been free to do business in whatever language they please for a very long time.

What was the purpose of it? Is this the most important issue facing the people there?

I also read another law, an anti-gay law is, or will be passed in Kiev? Heard anything about that?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

20. There's been no reports of any type of widespread anti-Russian violence in Ukraine.

And people in Ukraine are still free to do business in whatever language they choose. Russian has not been "outlawed", I cannot stress it enough.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

19. BelgianMadCow has been pushing Nazi meme since last year

I give this peron credit for being first at the table offering Putin's propaganda.

[BelgianMadCow]

21. I started posting about it when I saw a who's who in the German media

And since you're trying to paint me as meme pusher, I can easily demonstrate nuance, as in my dec 11 post in LBN.

US foreign policy is the spreading of democracy and freedom. Except when it's inconvenient, then it's supporting obedient dictators. A point made at great length in Naom Chomsky's "Failed states".

Should the Ukranian people choose the US/EU side or Russia's? I don't know, I just wish them luck in whatever they decide, hope they primarily choose their own side, and have much respect for camping out at -13°C.

On edit: the comments at the Guardian are very interesting. This is a complex situation, and whilst I support the right to protest anywhere and by anyone, it may well be that this is not a widely supported movement, but rather a show of force by rightwing ultranationalists. Several agenda's at play, and the people mangled in between. Beware of propaganda.

That is my opinion, and reasonable people can disagree about the role and the prevalence of the extreme right, but not the presence.

People are smart enough. Take it away, Pretzel_Warrior.