Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 06:35 AM Mar 2014

Seems that ole' Putin is Protecting Ukraine from those neo-Nazis we've been hearing about

Or so he told Angela Merkel, to explain the "extraordinary situation" that forced Russian intervention. The Russian speaking, eastern populace of Ukraine needs protection from the constant neo-nazi threat and Russia has no choice but to move in to protect them.

That sounds to me like a weak pretext, even by the standard of weak pretexts.

(Story in LBN: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014743429 )

See... this is why I take a lot of stuff with a grain of salt—and especially overseas.

There are a lot of forces pushing certain narratives. Many of those narratives have some truth to them.

For instance, al queada types in Syria. Are they there? Yes. Resounding yes. How large a force are they in the aggregate armed opposition to Assad? Well... depends who you ask. 20%? 80%? Does anyone really know? Does anyone in the western press really know?

And do people with a story to tell have an interest in one narrative or another? Almost all of them would.

Do governments push certain views of that opposition? Yes.

Do multiple governments push differing self-interested narratives? YES! Everyone does it. Everyone is pushing their naratives all the time.

__________

Does Ukraine have ultra-nationalists (aka neo-Nazis). Yes.

Did they participate in some of the protest violence? Yes.

How big a political and cultural force are they in Ukraine? Hard to say... once we get away from true/false we are getting into narratives and value judgments.

Was some of the "Ukraine protest movement is largely ultra-nationalist" narrative fed out by parties favoring Russian interests, as a precursor to military involvement?

Yes. Of course. Why not? The Russian equivalents of the CIA and State Department are not rookies. Not all stories, but certainly some. There's no way around it. The same way that a lot of stories about Syria were to some degree driven by American interests. (And some driven by Russian interests, Saudi interests, Jordanian interests, Israeli interests...)


And none of that is to say that ultra-nationalists are not a substantial problem in Ukraine. If nothing else, with Crimea lopped off the nation the ultra-nationalists from the west will be a bigger percentage of the electorate.

But everyone has a viewpoint and starting assumptions, and almost everyone has an agenda, and major powers push this stuff.

So I am skeptical. About all sides.

10 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Seems that ole' Putin is Protecting Ukraine from those neo-Nazis we've been hearing about (Original Post) cthulu2016 Mar 2014 OP
BUT I DEMAND SIMPLISTIC GOOD GUY/BAD GUY SCENARIOS Recursion Mar 2014 #1
The point is that it is not our business and that we are fools to make it our business. bemildred Mar 2014 #2
"it is not our business " JI7 Mar 2014 #3
Yes, I do. The Neocon's results speak for them. nt bemildred Mar 2014 #4
The Us... sendero Mar 2014 #5
+1. bemildred Mar 2014 #9
I hear you. Laelth Mar 2014 #7
The neo-nazi revolution in the Ukraine provided the perfect excuse to invade. Laelth Mar 2014 #6
And Heroic Putin is LEAPING to protect the LGBT community in Moscow from neo-Nazis! backscatter712 Mar 2014 #8
Plus--the hell--one! n/t Nuclear Unicorn Mar 2014 #10

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
1. BUT I DEMAND SIMPLISTIC GOOD GUY/BAD GUY SCENARIOS
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 06:37 AM
Mar 2014

Preferably ones that reinforce my existing worldviews and political inclinations. Get on that, please.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
2. The point is that it is not our business and that we are fools to make it our business.
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 06:52 AM
Mar 2014

And simple-minded troublemakers like Nuland spouting drivel like Kerry make the perfect foil for Putin's machinations.

JI7

(89,248 posts)
3. "it is not our business "
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 07:00 AM
Mar 2014

and you call others simple minded when you make a comment like that about world conflicts.

sendero

(28,552 posts)
5. The Us...
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 07:16 AM
Mar 2014

... has no business in Crimea. We had no business in Iraq. We had no business in Afghanistan.

There is not a military solution for every problem as Iraq and Afghanistan have shown clearly. There is nothing we could accomplish in Ukraine using military force that would not cost 10 times its value.

Enough already.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
9. +1.
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 11:04 AM
Mar 2014

Not every problem is fixable, at all, and the ones that are, are not necessarily ones that you should fix.

Sometimes the smart thing to do is wait. Most of the time, the smart thing to do is wait.

Laelth

(32,017 posts)
7. I hear you.
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 10:52 AM
Mar 2014

But this is definitely Europe's business, and that makes it our business. That said, I am not advocating any action on the part of the U.S. at this time, but it's far too simplistic to say that this is none of our business.

-Laelth

Laelth

(32,017 posts)
6. The neo-nazi revolution in the Ukraine provided the perfect excuse to invade.
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 10:50 AM
Mar 2014

I honestly believe there's a grain of truth to Putin's claimed desire to protect ethnic Russians in the Ukraine from Ukrainian neo-nazis that we helped usher into power. I also believe said ethnic Russians could be in danger absent Russian intervention.

This is a very delicate matter, to be sure.

-Laelth

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Seems that ole' Putin is ...