"We used to think they behaved badly because they were drunk...

[MissMillie]

...Now we know they were just behaving badly."


http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2014/03/03/285307535/mens-drinking-isnt-the-driver-of-sexual-aggression-in-bars


The researchers also wanted to look into whether unwanted sexual advances were intentional or just a matter of misperception. This study points to the former, Graham says.

"If you walk through a bar and grab a woman's breasts and then disappear into the crowd, that's probably not a misunderstanding," she says. "You don't actually think that she wants you to do that."

[Orrex]

1. I think we can file this under "No Shit."

It's like the common assertion "he's a nice guy until you piss him off, and then he's an asshole."

No, he's an asshole who sometimes manages to act like a nice guy.


If you're a guy who gets drunk and assaults women, then you're a guy who assaults women, and sometimes you're drunk.

[brewens]

2. I've always looked at alcohol as more of a truth serum. It's never an excuse for being an asshole,

it's just that they are assholes. You never hear, "he's a real asshole except for when he's drunk, then he's a really great guy!"

I have one friend that says he told his daughter that the first thing she should do is get a guy drunk and see how he behaves. I can see that, and the reverse would of course apply as well. I'd never put up with a woman that goes on bad trips while drinking. It's supposed to be fun. That's a deal breaker for me.

[Cleita]

5. Pretty true. Alcohol lowers inhibitions.

Last edited Tue Mar 4, 2014, 11:22 AM - Edit history (1)

I have seen people get funny too after a few drinks or very animated and talky as well or descend into being asshats.

[whatthehey]

7. Funnily enough this was said, in paraphrase, about me.

Apparently, I was told just two days ago, I am generally considered aloof and antisocial by other bar regulars where I hang out until I have had a few beers. "Decent guy when he's buzzed, miserable bastard sober" was I think the exact quote. I generally never approach reeal drunkenness but on reflection I see where comes from. My version is that I just need some time to relax in crowd situations. The truth? Who knows, but I for one certainly am viewed more positively after some etoh exposure.

[snooper2]

16. Well, you were just sitting at the end of the bar by yourself

staring at us playing golden tee-

It was kind of creepy. At least when you get a buzz going you start walking around a little bit

[whatthehey]

23. playing trivia myself actually, but other than that uncannily accurate. nt

[awoke_in_2003]

30. I am very aloof sober...

I don't run away from socializing, but I don't go looking for it. Even then, I am very quiet. Get some drinks in me and I let my defenses down, and actually engage in conversation and allow myself to laugh.

[chervilant]

3. And, if someone posts pictures

of topless women posed suggestively -- unarguably deliberately objectifying and sexualizing these women -- that's probably NOT a misunderstanding.

[Orrex]

8. You gloss over a ton of subjectivity there.

Lots of room for interpretation in "suggestively," "deliberately," "objectifying," and "sexualizing."

Hardly the "unarguable" assertion that you suggest.

[chervilant]

12. As expected...

Feeling a wee bit defensive? Touched a nerve?

Try watching "The Bro Code," and "The Century of the Self." Read (there's a concept!) about Edward Bernays.

Most importantly, stop justifying -- even obliquely -- the objectification of women.

[Orrex]

17. As expected...

You frame any alternative interpretation as "defensive," and the only possible reason why anyone would disagree with you is that you "touched a nerve." Baloney in both cases.

Also, your petty snipe of "Read (there's a concept!)" is likewise unsurprising. Why would you resort to such childish and insulting tactics? Because you're feeling a wee bit defensive? Because I've touched a nerve?

Most importantly, stop justifying -- even obliquely -- the objectification of women.

Thanks, but you don't get to dictate terms of the discussion just because you're convinced yourself of your own righteousness.

I've seen enough disagreement as to the nature objectification--even among the women here on DU--to demonstrate that your interpretation isn't paramount, and you have no particular authority on the subject.

[Cleita]

10. ...

[raven mad]

14. Dang. And it's still early here, Cleita........

6:40 a.m. and I want popcorn.

[chervilant]

13. PS to all the boys that respond

defensively: you are on my IL, for good reason. I will never see your vitriol, your sarcasm, your sexism, your puerile attacks. I no longer play in your dirty sandbox.

[JustAnotherGen]

18. Do what you gotta do to survive here

I've got a few folks on my IL for a very different reason than this - but it's amazing how much more enjoyable DU is when people you cannot relate to AT ALL Disappear.

Psst - I didn't see anything alertable in this post I'm responding to. But someone did. *sigh*

[chervilant]

35. Wow...

How sad that a few DUers feel defensive about feminist issues, and are unable to see how patriarchal precepts have shaped their world views.

[Orrex]

21. Well, whose dirty sandbox will you girls play in, then?

[Marr]

22. Feel free to put me in your ignore list.

I can't stand that self-aggrandizing threat, as though anyone cares who you ignore.

[Cleita]

24. +10

[chervilant]

33. Self-aggrandizing threat?

That post is intended for the unpleasant persons on my IL whose responses are hidden from my view by MY decision. So, yes, I will add you, as you wish.

[joeglow3]

37. Ohhhhh. She told you...

Hope your day can recover from the shock of being placed on someone's ignore list.

[joeglow3]

26. Why did you feel the need to post this?

Why not just do what you stated without having to pre-emptively tell everyone? It is almost as if you hoped this post, by itself, would garner you some attention?

[chervilant]

34. Oh, for pity's sake!

I was addressing the handful of people on my IL who persistently respond to my posts, despite my reminders that they're on my IL. I encourage you to put me on your IL, so that you won't have to view my posts in future.

[joeglow3]

36. I don't need to put people on my ignore list. I can cope with life just fine

If they are on your ignore list, then you don't see their replies. Plus, that is NOT what you posted. But keep on fishing for attention.

[AgingAmerican]

28. I looove women in bikini's

Please add me to your list.

[awoke_in_2003]

31. I only have one person on ignore...

(and that is only because I responded to someone in two different threads and so was accused or stalking) but the ignore function is becoming more and more attractive everyday.

[chervilant]

32. The tiny contingent of sexists,

misogynists, and verbal bullies compelled me to use my IL, particularly once I realized they add nothing of merit to the discussions herein.

[redgreenandblue]

4. People who are assholes when drunk or probably assholes otherwise.

[jimlup]

6. As a man I will say that I know (and have known) that this true.

Men will use lots of excuses for bad behavior.

As men we need to support each other so that we don't do dumb stuff like this. It isn't necessarily our state of our being but it could be if we don't work on it.

[1awake]

9. All alcohol does

is remove inhibitions and allows a person to be who they really are or do what they are thinking about doing but don't. Alcohol isnt an excuse nor is it the reason... whats inside is the reason.

[unblock]

11. bottom line is that drinkers know its effects and are completely responsible for their actions

even a neophyte has a pretty good idea of the effects of alcohol, although everyone reacts differently so there can be some allowance there. but anyone who knowingly drinks, knowing its effects on them, is completely responsible for their actions, imho.

if you drive drunk, you need to figure sort out your transportation while you're sober, or else not drink, or at least not drink beyond the legal limit.
if you're say or do things you regret when you've had a few, you need to drink less than that, not drink at all, or drink alone. or at least bring someone who will kick you under the table when you open your trap.

[MissMillie]

15. I think you guys are missing something from this article

"When researchers at the University of Toronto and the University of Washington observed young people's behaviors in bars, they found that the man's aggressiveness didn't match his level of intoxication. There was no relationship."

This article doesn't say men behave badly when they're drunk. It says that these sexual aggressors AREN'T drunk but they target women who are.

Moreover....

""There's no reason that women should be touched against their will," says Kate Graham, the study's lead researcher and a senior scientist at the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health at the University of Toronto. Women wouldn't accept that kind of behavior at school or on the street, she notes, but it seems to get a pass in bars, she tells Shots."

[JustAnotherGen]

19. I'm glad you gave that clarity

It says that these sexual aggressors AREN'T drunk but they target women who are.

[Cleita]

20. I used to get grabbed and groped on the job back when and no one

was drinking. When I complained, it was laughed off. Well, those were the times. However I estimated that only 2% of the men I worked with engaged in this behavior. The rest did respect a woman's person.

[Orrex]

27. That's shitty.

I suspect that having your legitimate complaint "laughed off" is in some ways more hurtful than crude behavior that led to your complaint.

I'm glad to hear that these assholes were in the minority, but it sucks that they mistreated you this way all the same.

[Cleita]

29. Well fortunately there are now laws in place to address this today so young

women can take a complaint to HR and have it taken seriously.

[JustAnotherGen]

38. Not really

Sorry but that's not true. Not if you want to keep your job. I'm sorry - but I know this first hand.

It's still better to scrunch down to where your boobs are and start talking to your opponent to put him in his place. You can also use it to silently hold it over his head to knock him out of your way if there is an initiative or project or idea you want to lead. Tit for tat - pardon the pun.

It's not black mail.

It's Corporate America 2014. Play nice or I'll trip you when you least expect it. Everyone wants to make six figures and no one - I mean NO ONE should take anything personally.

That's how it works at this NSA Loving Telecom.

[Solly Mack]

25. K&R