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Mon Mar 10, 2014, 10:40 AM

The single most powerful moral statement the USA could make against Putin moving into Crimea

Put Dick and Dubya on trial for Iraq.

Extra points for conviction of war crimes.

81 replies, 8211 views

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Reply The single most powerful moral statement the USA could make against Putin moving into Crimea (Original post)
Fumesucker Mar 2014 OP
Berlum Mar 2014 #1
kairos12 Mar 2014 #47
4_TN_TITANS Mar 2014 #58
trusty elf Mar 2014 #72
FSogol Mar 2014 #2
Orrex Mar 2014 #9
FSogol Mar 2014 #10
zeemike Mar 2014 #41
FSogol Mar 2014 #44
Fumesucker Mar 2014 #12
Jim Lane Mar 2014 #55
Scootaloo Mar 2014 #60
mwooldri Mar 2014 #71
cali Mar 2014 #3
Fumesucker Mar 2014 #7
GeorgeGist Mar 2014 #15
Igel Mar 2014 #29
KittyWampus Mar 2014 #30
Fumesucker Mar 2014 #31
amandabeech Mar 2014 #43
freebrew Mar 2014 #79
geek tragedy Mar 2014 #4
Fumesucker Mar 2014 #5
geek tragedy Mar 2014 #6
Fumesucker Mar 2014 #8
geek tragedy Mar 2014 #11
Fumesucker Mar 2014 #13
geek tragedy Mar 2014 #16
Fumesucker Mar 2014 #18
geek tragedy Mar 2014 #24
Fumesucker Mar 2014 #26
geek tragedy Mar 2014 #27
Fumesucker Mar 2014 #28
geek tragedy Mar 2014 #38
Fumesucker Mar 2014 #68
geek tragedy Mar 2014 #70
Fumesucker Mar 2014 #73
geek tragedy Mar 2014 #74
Fumesucker Mar 2014 #75
geek tragedy Mar 2014 #76
Fumesucker Mar 2014 #77
proudretiredvet Mar 2014 #19
Fumesucker Mar 2014 #21
ReRe Mar 2014 #49
Junkdrawer Mar 2014 #36
JEB Mar 2014 #40
geek tragedy Mar 2014 #69
Junkdrawer Mar 2014 #81
malaise Mar 2014 #66
Junkdrawer Mar 2014 #14
Fumesucker Mar 2014 #17
Junkdrawer Mar 2014 #23
proudretiredvet Mar 2014 #20
Fumesucker Mar 2014 #22
Junkdrawer Mar 2014 #25
Fumesucker Mar 2014 #34
Half-Century Man Mar 2014 #62
hack89 Mar 2014 #45
Junkdrawer Mar 2014 #48
hack89 Mar 2014 #50
Fumesucker Mar 2014 #56
hack89 Mar 2014 #57
truedelphi Mar 2014 #61
ProSense Mar 2014 #32
Fumesucker Mar 2014 #33
Zorra Mar 2014 #35
Enthusiast Mar 2014 #37
JEB Mar 2014 #39
Hoppy Mar 2014 #42
amandabeech Mar 2014 #46
Mira Mar 2014 #51
MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #52
ProSense Mar 2014 #53
JI7 Mar 2014 #54
joshcryer Mar 2014 #59
Half-Century Man Mar 2014 #63
mazzarro Mar 2014 #64
daybranch Mar 2014 #65
Fumesucker Mar 2014 #67
L0oniX Mar 2014 #78
tea and oranges Mar 2014 #80

Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 10:43 AM

1. "No way, Jose. Smirk." - George AWOL Bush (R) & Dickie 'Five Military Deferments' Cheney (R)

"As bona fide Republicons, we get to stay AWOL from responsibility. Plus, we get the standard IOKIYAR deferment. Ha ha. Smirk. Sneer."

- George AWOL Bush (R) & Dickie 'Five Military Deferments' Cheney (R)

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Response to Berlum (Reply #1)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 12:44 PM

47. Chicken Hawks enrage me. They are beyond contempt. These two are the worst.

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Response to Berlum (Reply #1)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:31 PM

58. I thought you were SpiralHawk

with that response!

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Response to Berlum (Reply #1)

Tue Mar 11, 2014, 09:17 AM

72. ........

[IMG][/IMG]

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 10:44 AM

2. What color are unicorns?

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Response to FSogol (Reply #2)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 10:54 AM

9. Nine.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #9)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 10:54 AM

10. Smells like 9.

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Response to FSogol (Reply #10)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 12:25 PM

41. Smells like 9 but taste like 2.

And feels like 1

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Response to zeemike (Reply #41)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 12:27 PM

44. Feels like Tuesday.

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Response to FSogol (Reply #2)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 10:56 AM

12. Invisible pink

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #12)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 04:19 PM

55. Your post is offensive to Pastafarians.

 

As someone who'd heard of the Invisible Pink Unicorn (bbhhh) long ago, I can't help but think of this FSM character as being something of a deity-come-lately.

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Response to FSogol (Reply #2)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:49 PM

60. Rainbow and chrome, of course

 

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Response to FSogol (Reply #2)

Tue Mar 11, 2014, 09:11 AM

71. Pink and fluffy. Must dance on rainbows.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 10:45 AM

3. Putin wouldn't give a shit.

 

and that will never happen. too many dems voted for the IWR.

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Response to cali (Reply #3)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 10:49 AM

7. Then why bother making any moral statments at all?

If you are incapable of making the only moral statement that people will take seriously coming from you then there is no point in making lesser ones that sound completely hypocritical.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #7)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:06 AM

15. Agreed ...

American exceptionalism seems to be everyones excuse for not cleaning house.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #7)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:39 AM

29. A far stronger moral statement would be unacceptable to most here.

That would be putting Clinton on trial for war crimes in Kosova and Bosnia.


That's one place this started, not in Iraq. It didn't matter that we didn't annex Kosovo (or Iraq). What mattered is that the territorial sovereignty of another country, considered "inviolate", was achieved through predominately military ends.

All the talk of Iraq is mostly because it's more recent and because it's more likely to work with a (D) audience that is partly still is engaged in self-castration because of it. That example will become more pertinent only really in the event of a Russian invasion and "re-purposing" of Ukraine.

Prosecuting either, however, would serve no purpose except for domestic consumption and those that we think are important abroad. We live in a small, small word--one which, oddly, doesn't include most of the Earth's surface or population.

The other place this started was in the perceived humiliation of Russia by the West in the collapse of the Soviet Union and the splitting off of parts of the empire. The Baltics are still a sore point, and while many analysts are talking about how Putin's now not just speaking of "Russians" but "Russian speakers" it's not new talk with Russia--it's a repeat of what happened in Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania. Except then Russia was too weak, too disorganized, to do much. Worse was when the Baltics went all EU and NATO on Russia.

Putin considers his valuation of his own moral principles to be far more important than your valuation of either your own, Bush's, or his moral principles. He's sure in his moral judgments, fairly good in his political judgments, and really--we just don't matter to him that much except to the extent we actually do things.

It's like a scene from a comedy that I once had the displeasure to sit through. Two opponents. One adopted a kung-fu pose and made various grunts, shouts, and presumably threatening posturing. The other just watched the other guy's gyrations deadpan then pulled out a gun and shot him. We can posture all we want. Unless we do something that gets in his way, it's all posturing. Just as with the kung-fu parody, so it's portrayed as a kind of outrageous farce.

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Response to Igel (Reply #29)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:44 AM

30. WTF? Was there genocide happening in Ukraine like there was under Milosevic?

 

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Response to Igel (Reply #29)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:46 AM

31. I wouldn't be averse to that if you include everyone

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Response to Igel (Reply #29)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 12:25 PM

43. Not all Dems thought that the Kosovo business was a good idea.

 

I thought that it would come to bite the US in the behind, and thought that it was a dumb thing to do, alongside other dumb Clinton moves like ignoring Brooksley Born's warning that derivatives were a huge problem and signing Graham, Leach, Bliley and NAFTA and giving WTO status to China.

Why should I be castigated for writing that elections in Crimea pose serious problems, particularly in light of the lack of UN observers and the presence of Russian troops and their local followers in the streets with guns?

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Response to Igel (Reply #29)

Tue Mar 11, 2014, 10:37 AM

79. The 1st Gulf War?

Brought to us by GHWB, the R's hero, next to Raygun.

I saw the interview w/Jimmy Carter reprimanding Bushes war, brought to us with lies about the 'evil' deeds of the Iraqis. Carter told the truth about Kuwait illegally cross-drilling into Iraqi oil fields even after Iraq defended Kuwait from the Iran attempted invasion of same. It was on PBS so no one seemed to pay attention, esp. the M$M.

More Bushes = more war, more lies and more death.

I hate those evil bastards like the plague...worse even.

The U.S.A. has no more moral authority. It is an evil greedy corporation.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 10:46 AM

4. Moral statements are not going to sway Putin.

 

Only consequences will.

Not particularly interested in our government sending moral messages, rather in seeing our government preventing bad behavior on its own part as well as other nations.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #4)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 10:47 AM

5. You wouldn't see such a move as in any way preventing bad behavior? n/t

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #5)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 10:48 AM

6. On whose part?

 

There would certainly be consequences at home, but of the unintended sort that folks here would probably not like to see happen

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #6)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 10:50 AM

8. On the part of war criminals..

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #8)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 10:55 AM

11. more likely, it would embolden the next Republican who takes office

 

to start wholescale prosecutions of Obama administration officials, and Clinton administration officials, for everything from the IRS to Benghazi 'scandals.'

Another possibility would be to convince the next Republican who takes office and commits illegal stuff to, well, take extra steps to make sure he is never succeeded by a hostile party.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #11)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 10:58 AM

13. It's always easier to see the mote in another's eye than the beam in your own

So many of those Biblical saying still are wise about humans.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #13)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:07 AM

16. indeed. Republicans would not view a Bush prosecution

 

as a war criminal receiving his just punishment, but rather a politically-based prosecution based on policy differences, which they would treat as justification for turning Issa's press releases into indictments.

important to recognize how the enemy will react.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #16)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:11 AM

18. I thought Putin was the enemy?

That's what my OP was about, the enemy Putin and how to gain the most moral advantage over him, moral statements that could be taken by other nations of the seriousness of our resolve in this matter.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #18)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:25 AM

24. To paraphrase Tina Turner, what's morality

 

got to do with it?

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #24)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:28 AM

26. What does morality have to do with Putin invading Crimea?

I thought that was the problem, it's an immoral act which harms others without their consent?



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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #26)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:31 AM

27. No, the problem is that it undermines modern international

 

law's foundation--that states aren't allowed to invade, conquer, and annex other sovereign states.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #27)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:34 AM

28. And why is it that states are not allowed to invade, conquor or annex other states?




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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #28)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 12:13 PM

38. War is to be discouraged, nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #38)

Tue Mar 11, 2014, 09:03 AM

68. Why should war be discouraged?

Predicting that you will go back to "to strengthen international law" or some pathetically circular variant thereof.




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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #68)

Tue Mar 11, 2014, 09:05 AM

70. if you need explanations as to why war should be avoided, I suggest

 

you read up on the topic

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #70)

Tue Mar 11, 2014, 09:23 AM

73. I'm interested in your thoughts on the matter

You must have some personal rationale as to why war should be avoided.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #73)

Tue Mar 11, 2014, 09:25 AM

74. let's see, death, poverty, disease, rape, environmental degradation,

 

instability, tyranny

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #74)

Tue Mar 11, 2014, 09:27 AM

75. And what do all those things have in common?


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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #75)

Tue Mar 11, 2014, 09:34 AM

76. they're caused by war. the Socratic method is tedious, got anything else?nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #76)

Tue Mar 11, 2014, 09:43 AM

77. You really can't help yourself, can you?

Everyone sees what you're avoiding, you aren't fooling anyone.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #13)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:12 AM

19. Reality check

 

No one is going to do anything to Bush.

There is a problem in the Ukraine right now. Not when Bush was president. It is either dealt with or down the line conservatives will be talking about President Obama just like you are talking about Bush now.

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Response to proudretiredvet (Reply #19)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:13 AM

21. No, the problem is that people let *their* *own* politicians off the hook for this kind of thing

I'm just making it blatantly obvious.


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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #13)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 12:58 PM

49. (Sounds like Will Shakespeare to me)

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #4)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:52 AM

36. Putin = Take the food away from a cub in front of a Mother Bear (Russia)....

In that circumstance, I fully expect the gums to curl and the teeth to show.

Don't know about you, I'm dropping the food and putting as much distance between myself, the cub, and the Mother Bear as these old legs can manage.

There's bravery, and then there's fool-hearty overconfidence.

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Response to Junkdrawer (Reply #36)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 12:25 PM

40. As Shakespeare said, "Discretion is the better part of valor."

 

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Response to Junkdrawer (Reply #36)

Tue Mar 11, 2014, 09:04 AM

69. If Russia is a mother bear, the US is a bull elephant. nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #69)

Tue Mar 11, 2014, 07:58 PM

81. How many fight-to-the-death maulings can a bull elephant take?

Gotta be a better way to find food...

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #4)

Tue Mar 11, 2014, 08:53 AM

66. On the contrary

Putin learned well that morality is for suckers. If that were not so Bush and Cheney would the locked up in the Hague ages ago.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:03 AM

14. Here's what crossed my mind yesterday...

Last edited Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:39 AM - Edit history (1)

If Russia, India, and China unite to stop what they may well see as a "rogue elephant", we could end up with our asses kicked up to our ears. Russian physics and resources, Indian mathematics, Chinese production...

We're coming to a point where it's either recant or suffer the consequences....

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Response to Junkdrawer (Reply #14)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:09 AM

17. Russia puts the US strategic weapons in check

While the Chinese and Indians wipe us off the board economically.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #17)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:20 AM

23. Seen these?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4597049

and

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4597237

from the later:

...

The PAK FA, a fifth generation jet fighter, is intended to be the successor to the MiG-29 and Su-27 in the Russian inventory and serve as the basis of the Sukhoi/HAL FGFA being developed with India. The T-50 prototype performed its first flight 29 January 2010.

...


I believe India will be doing the more advanced software (mathematics)....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi/HAL_FGFA

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Response to Junkdrawer (Reply #14)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:13 AM

20. And all of this is based on their perception of us.

 

We will have more support in the world when we are viewed as a world power who will act to help others.

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Response to proudretiredvet (Reply #20)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:18 AM

22. Exactly..

When even our own politicians are not exempt from the rule of law they will get so much support we won't know what to do with it all.

Imagine the spontaneous outpouring all over the world of cheering seeing Dick and Duby dallying in the docket.

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Response to proudretiredvet (Reply #20)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:25 AM

25. All things being equal, Russia, India and China are not allies ...

Takes extreme outside threats for those three to weld into an alliance.

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Response to Junkdrawer (Reply #25)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:51 AM

34. Indeed

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #34)

Tue Mar 11, 2014, 07:31 AM

62. This chart brings us to the second tier of war criminals

The war profiteers. They need to be held accountable as well.

Due to our "foreign adventures" we are becoming the exact sort of people we staged a revolution against. Only a psychopath would want to rebuild the East India Company and reinstate a Victorian style economy (the one the world overthrew last century).

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Response to Junkdrawer (Reply #14)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 12:38 PM

45. Except that India is strengthening their military ties to the US to counter China

India and China have fought three conflicts since 1962. Today there is a massive military build up as India counters Chinese incursions into disputed territory. Additionally, India is very suspicious of Chinese ties with Pakistan.

India want a strong US presence in the region as a counterbalance to China. They are also buying a lot of US military hardware because they have learned the hard way that Russian gear is junk in comparison.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #45)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 12:52 PM

48. Agreed. See post #25. But alliances in a time of war can shift...

(WW II, Russia)

India may be keeping her options open.

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Response to Junkdrawer (Reply #48)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 12:59 PM

50. India does not care about Russia

their long term strategic aim is to find a counterbalance to Chinese military and economic hegemony. Which means a strategic alliance with the US. The Indians don't give a rats ass about Ukraine, Syria, Iran, Iraq or any other supposedly evil deed the US is up to. They care about China.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #50)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 07:42 PM

56. I suspect they may care a bit about Pakistan

And the US has spent plenty of time palling around the Pakistanis.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #56)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 08:46 PM

57. China is arming Pakistan

Which is why India is going with the US for arms - they want to ensure military superiority over Pakistan. Once America is out of Afganastan they will not care so much about Pakistan.

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Response to Junkdrawer (Reply #14)

Tue Mar 11, 2014, 01:39 AM

61. And don't forget the 23 nations that have backed away from the US dollar. n/t

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:47 AM

32. Well, at least there's agreement that Putin's actions were illegal. n/t

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Response to ProSense (Reply #32)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:49 AM

33. Have I ever even implied otherwise?

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:52 AM

35. +1, and totally pulling out of Afghanistan immediately would help as well. nt

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:54 AM

37. Kicked and recommended a whole bunch.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 12:20 PM

39. Love to see the W, Dick and crew perp walk, but

 

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 12:25 PM

42. That would require an attorney genreral and a president with high moral standards.

 

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 12:39 PM

46. Putin should have focused on preparing a Russian port to the east of

 

Crimea to accept the ships and personnel currently stationed in Ukrainian Crimea.

Novorisk was supposed to be the location, and there are other ports, as well, on the Russian shore of the Black Sea east of Crimea. Navies in the Black Sea are not supposed to include single-purpose aircraft carriers by treaty, so you don't need a humungous port for them. What Russia needed was a port for medium to small sized ships. Surely those could have been built with Russian technology and whatever other technology and oil and gas rich Russia could have built. You realize, of course, that the Russians sold their largest multi-purpose ship with the ability to launch aircraft to the Chinese.

If Putin had put some real money into that project, he's have Russian ports for Russian ships.

Instead, he spent money elsewhere, including $50 billion to build up Socchi, a semi-tropical resort with winter sports facilities

I'm not knocking Socchi. It looked very nice. But which project do you think deserved the highest priority: a Russian base for the Russian Black Sea fleet, or a resort with semi-tropical with winter sports facilities?

I know which I would have voted for.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 01:15 PM

51. You are singing my song. n/t

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 01:40 PM

52. Earning. Moral. Authority.

 

We need to.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 02:10 PM

53. Ukraine crisis: 'Russian soldiers' seize Crimea hospital

Ukraine crisis: 'Russian soldiers' seize Crimea hospital
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024639036

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 02:25 PM

54. i don't think anyone is calling for Putin to be charged with war crimes

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:32 PM

59. Obama would never do that.

Clinton might though. But not until her second term.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Mar 11, 2014, 07:43 AM

63. Personally speaking.

Not because of Putin, not to increase our global image, not for revenge of a presidential election decided by the courts, not for anti-corporatism, not for the left or the right, not for the fallen (ours and theirs), not for the any religious reasons; but because it is the right thing to do. We are, or at least should be, better than we have been acting lately.

The European religious crusades were a bust a thousand years ago. The wars for business reasons are the modern version of the religious crusade, and will end just as badly.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Mar 11, 2014, 07:57 AM

64. Yeah right! as if western nations ever put their leaders on trial?

Both political and economic/financial leaders are always exempt from any kind of repercusion from their deeds. The most that happens is that some underlins are set up to take the fall: if the dastardly deed is not schmoozed over.
Whereas for other nations, everything that happens is somehow traced to the leader and it is also put in such deviius light as to make that leader the most evil human alive.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Mar 11, 2014, 08:45 AM

65. How about

we give Texas back to Mexico. It would sure save us a lot of infighting and allow Texans to secede from this country they hate so much. And Mexicans are used to working for peanuts which would be right in line with all those good minimum wage jobs, Texas has created recently.

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Response to daybranch (Reply #65)

Tue Mar 11, 2014, 08:53 AM

67. I encourage you to post an OP with that as the premise

Should be fun.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Mar 11, 2014, 09:50 AM

78. There's nothing the USA can do to redeem itself ...no more than Nazi Germany could have.

 

100,000's ...maybe over a million died in Iraq because of lies. That will hang over this country forever.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Mar 11, 2014, 10:55 AM

80. Bars & Stripes (clothing) for the Bushies!

It should have been done right around the time Pelosi swept if off the table & Obama insisted we needed to move forward.

Hard to move forward while dragging a bunch of lying neocons still yammering their hawk BS, still holding positions of authority, & still being asked on talk shows.

Truly, they should have been quashed after what they did to Clinton, but apparently unable to learn, we continue to allow the unvanquished criminals & war profiteers to speak freely.

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