General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsQuestion: Do you think Russia is entitled to Ukrainian Military Assets?
Is any Ukrainian navy ship that was docked in Crimea when the Russian parliament voted that Russia owned Crimea now the property of Russia?
rdharma
(6,057 posts)Igel
(35,300 posts)No.
In the case of the USSR, there was no clear successor "owner" so things were divvied up. Russia may have wanted the nukes in Ukraine because Russians often believed the USSR was just the Russian empire, but in the end that's not how it turned out. They were forced to abide by their propaganda. The nukes stayed put, simply because moving them was a risk and there was no clear owner, just sites that they were stored at with difficulty in easily moving them. Naval and military assets were also divided up. The ships in the naval yards in the newly independent Ukraine were divided between Russia and Ukraine. Not because of any clear democratic or moral or intellectual principle, but just because Russia was rattling sabres and wanted its hardware and military capability, with an implicit (and sometimes explicit) threat of force.
The West rewarded a bully. Those who don't want to fight bullies tend to find justifications. "The homophobe's a fine person because he votes like I do on most issues. The anti-Semite might give my cousin a job. The Muslim basher doesn't affect me, I'm a Presbyterian. The jock threatening my friend might beat me up, too, and I'm afraid of him and have homework to do at home. The drug dealer's threatening my brother ... but he might cut me off if I challenge him, and I have a date tonight anyway." Lots of justifications.
In this case, there is a clear owner and it's not Aksenov and his Muscovite or Chechnya-based "local self-defense forces."
They blocked the ships from leaving, so the ships that were there when it declared independence weren't the ships that the Ukrainians would willingly have had there. They were trapped, blocked, threatened if they should leave, and even under seige. It's sleight of hand (and slight of intellect) that leads to your conclusion.
It's like repossessing a house, but for the month after eviction you issue the eviction notice you make sure nobody takes anything out of it. You keep the cars there. Keep them from removing the tv. Then, when the time comes, you insist that they come out, hands up, as squatters, and remove their wallets.
It's called "despoiling" and it's what a combatant does to the vanquished to humiliate him. Or, between equals, what the arrogant do to reinforce their egos. With some vicariously buying into the whole dynamic because they're really into solidarity with the winners.
dlwickham
(3,316 posts)Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)Igel
(35,300 posts)It is a non sequitur contest, is it not?
jazzimov
(1,456 posts)that an ambigous "West" engineered the coup in the Ukrainian government, but I have seem any evidence presented to support this claim.
On the contrary, I have seen evidence that the former President of Ukraine was a puppet of Russia and was being bribed by them. For example, the home with the private zoo that was shown on the news.
I'm not saying that "we" didn't engineer the coup - I'm simply saying that I have not seen any evidence presented that we have whereas I have seen evidence to the contrary.
Have I missed something? Can you show me any evidence other than unjustied claims?
pscot
(21,024 posts)to qualify for a job at Walmart?
Nika
(546 posts)This is a might is right situation. If someone steals your wallet at gunpoint, the thief feels it is his, but it is still your wallet in fact.
moondust
(19,979 posts)If Russia had wanted ownership of Crimea they had decades to negotiate with Kiev for it rather than waiting for a moment of Ukrainian vulnerability and militarily seizing it. It's an opportunistic land and possessions grab using the Trojan Horse troops they had stationed in Crimea under treaty.
djean111
(14,255 posts)I want to know if Crimeans who do not want to join the Russian Federation are free to relocate, and if so, will they be assisted in some way.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)What should our response be, given that Russia having annexed Crimea, considers all Crimean assets to now be Russian?
crabbydog
(1 post)What has happened in Crimea is illegal under international law and is nothing more than theft.
TBF
(32,056 posts)And is in "illegal" if Crimea asked their friend for help?
You must know that much of south and east Ukraine is loyal to Russia.
TwilightGardener
(46,416 posts)is that considered an act of war against Ukraine? If Ukraine attempts to retain these assets, move them, or destroy them in place, is that a hostile act against Russia? I can't figure out what's going on.
newfie11
(8,159 posts)Non of my business what they do.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)They belonged to the country of Ukraine and were blockaded against international law and were prevented from leaving. So if a state of the US left they would get all of the weapons, ships and nuclear weapons that were under federal ownership?
The Ukraine soldiers and sailors should destroy in place as much as possible as I feel they will be used against Ukraine in the future.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)Does Ukraine intend on repaying its loans to Russia?
Because otherwise they've been stealing billions in free gas from Russia for a long time.
Russia should probably return these to Ukraine, for as much good as it would do them.
And the Ukrainians better sure it stays that way, even if they have to destroy it all.
No worries... We'll be more than happy to give them better weapons.
ебать Россия