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I trust Native Americans to know what is bad for my environment ... (Original Post) MindMover Mar 2014 OP
K&R n/t Aerows Mar 2014 #1
Can you imagine our leaders considering the fallout for generations into the future... polichick Mar 2014 #2
I have worked with Native Americans and find there reverence for the land they .. MindMover Mar 2014 #5
One of the first times I really felt my Native American roots was... polichick Mar 2014 #11
Keep up the good work ... MindMover Mar 2014 #15
You too! :) polichick Mar 2014 #16
generation gap DustyJoe Mar 2014 #3
Come to NW Washington KT2000 Mar 2014 #6
In our little corner of NW Washington..... Capt.Rocky300 Mar 2014 #38
Where is that? KT2000 Mar 2014 #39
Swinomish Tribe near Anacortes. Capt.Rocky300 Mar 2014 #40
I see - KT2000 Mar 2014 #45
We have been following the progress.... Capt.Rocky300 Mar 2014 #57
Exactly this. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2014 #98
I have also seen these conditions brought on by neglect and really a MindMover Mar 2014 #7
+1 ismnotwasm Mar 2014 #8
Aside from outright genocide, the effort to deculturalize American Indians by forcing a slumcamper Mar 2014 #41
AMEN ... and thanks for your understanding .. MindMover Mar 2014 #43
I also am quite fond of the reaction of a Native American elder to our truedelphi Mar 2014 #51
in AZ, most of the state declines to participate in that silliness Kali Mar 2014 #106
I'd imagine that's due more to regional poverty than age... LanternWaste Mar 2014 #12
these are the vestiges of grinding poverty. nt G_j Mar 2014 #26
Really? Come to Appalachia and see what European Americans have done. Enthusiast Mar 2014 #29
generations II DustyJoe Mar 2014 #93
In part this is true Rockyj Mar 2014 #67
Not only visual blight, but pollution and poor resource managment. Cofitachequi Mar 2014 #76
What you might be seeing on the 4 corners is the unholy influence of the white man Stargazer99 Mar 2014 #96
In the Washington mudslide KT2000 Mar 2014 #4
^^^^^This^^^^! love_katz Mar 2014 #42
Posted this a few posts above yours on the thread. Thought you'd be interested. Cofitachequi Mar 2014 #77
Exactly where are you talking about ... ? MindMover Mar 2014 #119
I've worked with Cherokee on and off trust lands in North Carolina and Tennessee. Cofitachequi Mar 2014 #124
Now, you are talking about internal politics ... MindMover Mar 2014 #125
tough folks CountAllVotes Mar 2014 #126
While I know that there's a great number of Native Americans who are environmentally conscious, WatermelonRat Mar 2014 #9
Everyone has one and you are entitled to yours ... MindMover Mar 2014 #10
Yes they are entitled to their own opinion you are right and they are also right in that cstanleytech Mar 2014 #19
My experience is definitely different than yours ... MindMover Mar 2014 #21
I'm not trying to be divisive I am trying to point out people are not superior on anything due to cstanleytech Mar 2014 #25
Sorry but, the KKK is not a race, it is stupid white people ... MindMover Mar 2014 #28
Knowing about racism is not the same as knowing about environmentalism. Racism happens because... Moonwalk Mar 2014 #103
You use the word savage and digress to arguments about racism ... MindMover Mar 2014 #105
Well of course members of the KKK are stupid but its not because they are white its cstanleytech Mar 2014 #155
Call all white people racist because of the KKK Revanchist Mar 2014 #133
"Call all white people racist because of the KKK" Then its a good thing I didnt do that then. nt cstanleytech Mar 2014 #154
+1 Jgarrick Mar 2014 #14
Seriously. eom uppityperson Mar 2014 #30
I know, right? Thor_MN Mar 2014 #44
The reward is small, and goes to a few. The risk is great and goes to many. Scuba Mar 2014 #13
if the bad river have their way unionthug777 Mar 2014 #20
+1! That's the point. Only a few are rewarded but at the expense of millions. Enthusiast Mar 2014 #27
I trust scientists. Gore1FL Mar 2014 #17
I do to, and yes you are correct .... MindMover Mar 2014 #18
Native americans, like many other people and cultures, are much more in touch joeybee12 Mar 2014 #22
and AMEN ... MindMover Mar 2014 #23
True - and that connection is sacred. polichick Mar 2014 #36
Really? homegirl Mar 2014 #74
They probably built there casino on land treatied to them ... MindMover Mar 2014 #122
"Native American" is not a singular culture or people. NYC Liberal Mar 2014 #120
Where do you get your information ..? (hundreds of years before Europeans arrived). MindMover Mar 2014 #123
A few links: NYC Liberal Mar 2014 #129
Thank you ... and yes they had differences ... MindMover Mar 2014 #131
K&R! This post should have hundreds of recommendations! Enthusiast Mar 2014 #24
I trust some, not all. No more than all of any ethnicity or race uppityperson Mar 2014 #31
Well said, Jean-Paul ... MindMover Mar 2014 #32
I always knew this was environmentally friendly!... yawnmaster Mar 2014 #33
Ok, I give, is this an underfunded tribal medical complex ... ? MindMover Mar 2014 #34
Oh it is funded... yawnmaster Mar 2014 #35
I will not get into casino/resorts owned by Native American tribes ... MindMover Mar 2014 #37
"Innate"? Brickbat Mar 2014 #59
Humans do not the type of innate knowledge of which you speak eom yawnmaster Mar 2014 #87
If your post could mean something, I would respond ... MindMover Mar 2014 #89
It means that humans are not born with innate knowledge beyond... yawnmaster Mar 2014 #94
You think you have knowledge and understanding and you do not ... bye MindMover Mar 2014 #95
Biology fail. NuclearDem Mar 2014 #121
THAT DOESN'T COUNT. Brickbat Mar 2014 #60
This is rascism and fake spirituality... Demo_Chris Mar 2014 #46
Thank you for alerting me on who to ignore .... bye MindMover Mar 2014 #47
It does have some elements of the "noble savage" cartoon to it. Throd Mar 2014 #53
You might say that, but I could not possibly comment. nt Demo_Chris Mar 2014 #54
Exactly. /nt Marr Mar 2014 #63
K & R !!! WillyT Mar 2014 #48
Thanks WillyT ... MindMover Mar 2014 #49
Anytime, MindMover... Anytime... WillyT Mar 2014 #50
I toss that up to her being a smart lady, rather than because of her race Scootaloo Mar 2014 #52
I trust the Irish to tell me about liquor... AngryAmish Mar 2014 #55
I can tell you about some good cheese and wines ... and I speak one of those funny sounding ... MindMover Mar 2014 #56
And I trust the Germans on matters concerning.... Kaleva Mar 2014 #58
if you have something to say please say it clearly ...nt MindMover Mar 2014 #61
the word, if I can speak for another, is racism. AngryAmish Mar 2014 #62
so I am a racist ... WOW .. MindMover Mar 2014 #64
They should fucking know! They've been fighting terrorism since 1492. lonestarnot Mar 2014 #65
And they have been better stewards of the land than ... MindMover Mar 2014 #66
I don't know about that as I am not familiar with race and stewardship of planet earth. lonestarnot Mar 2014 #68
of course you are an expert... MindMover Mar 2014 #69
Really? What does that even mean? lonestarnot Mar 2014 #70
goodnight ... and good luck with your next 70000 ... MindMover Mar 2014 #71
Right. Sweet dreams. lonestarnot Mar 2014 #72
Absolutely!!! K&R!! hue Mar 2014 #73
I've come full circle from my thinking towards Native Americans ffr Mar 2014 #75
Bravo and thank you for your understanding ... nt MindMover Mar 2014 #79
Hardly full circle. 180 degrees. malthaussen Mar 2014 #82
and yours are greater for pointing out others ... bye MindMover Mar 2014 #91
You are correct. Sorry. An about face. ffr Mar 2014 #157
Would you trust them on their feelings towards the Federal Government? dilby Mar 2014 #78
I trust people from my experience and internal feelings ... MindMover Mar 2014 #81
That is my point, if I took their position I would probably hate the Federal Government. n/t dilby Mar 2014 #83
So your point is ridiculous ... MindMover Mar 2014 #84
My point is you don't blanket support a group based on a person. dilby Mar 2014 #88
Thank you for alerting me on who to ignore .... bye MindMover Mar 2014 #90
"Noble savage" cartoonish nonsense. NuclearDem Mar 2014 #80
Exactly. DavidDvorkin Mar 2014 #102
I trust Native Americans to know what is bad for our environment ... AlbertCat Mar 2014 #85
I and others have already made your important point but thank you for ... MindMover Mar 2014 #86
It doesn't take a report.... AlbertCat Mar 2014 #92
You finally say something that is true and logical ... MindMover Mar 2014 #97
You finally say something that is true and logical ... AlbertCat Mar 2014 #99
And you do not understand or know everything ... MindMover Mar 2014 #104
And you do not understand or know everything ... AlbertCat Mar 2014 #108
I have driven past this place for 20 years. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2014 #100
I think your picture is for this purpose ... MindMover Mar 2014 #113
No, shake mills are uninvolved in clear cuts. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2014 #127
In my research I found that land was parceled to individual tribal members ... MindMover Mar 2014 #128
Forest practices laws in Washington dictate what remediation private landowners must do. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2014 #132
How many acres would you guess is involved in the clear cut .... ? MindMover Mar 2014 #134
The one I have in mind is roughly 100 acres. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2014 #135
Of course you know that this tribe only owns 200,000 + acres ... MindMover Mar 2014 #136
The QIN has sold much of their holdings. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2014 #138
Exactly my point ... sold much of their holdings to the government for pennies ... MindMover Mar 2014 #141
We're drifting off topic. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2014 #144
Casinos? nt mr blur Mar 2014 #101
Because they are primitive and closer to the land? Nothing like a little soft bigotry. CBGLuthier Mar 2014 #107
The first person to call racism is a what .... ? MindMover Mar 2014 #109
perceptive person? eShirl Mar 2014 #130
It's called the Noble Savage stereotype gollygee Mar 2014 #140
Your link points to an obviously ugly portrayal of Native Americans ... MindMover Mar 2014 #146
Well you looked at it for three seconds then, apparently gollygee Mar 2014 #147
This message was self-deleted by its author gollygee Mar 2014 #139
I trust European Americans to know what is good for our economic well being. mathematic Mar 2014 #110
LOL... because it is not true ... MindMover Mar 2014 #111
Which is precisely the reaction sensible people have to your OP. mathematic Mar 2014 #115
Sensible people will understand what my post is about ... MindMover Mar 2014 #117
Your post is about cashing in on longheld racist stereotypes mathematic Mar 2014 #118
I trust humans to know what is good for humans! eom yawnmaster Mar 2014 #114
apparently the Pequot tribe, at least, has other innate knowledge! yawnmaster Mar 2014 #112
That entire complex was made from recycled dream-catchers, so it's OK. Throd Mar 2014 #116
Okay, do you think Jews are better with money and blacks have more rhythm, too? Spider Jerusalem Mar 2014 #137
I believe that Native Americans have an understanding and reverence for the land they stand on ... MindMover Mar 2014 #142
I'm not the one using racist stereotypes here; you are. Spider Jerusalem Mar 2014 #143
That is your opinion ... MindMover Mar 2014 #148
Mine and that of quite a lot of other people on this thread Spider Jerusalem Mar 2014 #149
Racism .... Really ... >? MindMover Mar 2014 #150
You've met definition number 1 there. eom yawnmaster Mar 2014 #151
Yep, racism Spider Jerusalem Mar 2014 #152
Like here!! yawnmaster Mar 2014 #145
Yes that old "noble savage" idea treestar Mar 2014 #156
Native Americans are not monolithic. Kali Mar 2014 #153

polichick

(37,152 posts)
2. Can you imagine our leaders considering the fallout for generations into the future...
Wed Mar 26, 2014, 03:47 PM
Mar 2014

the way Native Americans traditionally do?

MindMover

(5,016 posts)
5. I have worked with Native Americans and find there reverence for the land they ..
Wed Mar 26, 2014, 03:50 PM
Mar 2014

stand on to be unparalleled with anyone I have ever met...

polichick

(37,152 posts)
11. One of the first times I really felt my Native American roots was...
Wed Mar 26, 2014, 04:04 PM
Mar 2014

standing on the banks of a badly polluted river when I was about four years old. I cried uncontrollably, feeling completely heartbroken.

After a few experiences like this over the years I started to read about "genetic memory" - and concluded that we can inherit more than blood and bone.

I got involved with politics and the Democratic Party with the first Earth Day because of those "memories." imo our leaders would be smart to listen to Native Americans about our continued survival on this planet.

Thanks for the thread!

DustyJoe

(849 posts)
3. generation gap
Wed Mar 26, 2014, 03:48 PM
Mar 2014

Maybe the older natives still see environmental issues as they did in younger days.
But ...
In my many travels through the 4-corners area multiple tribal areas over the past 40 years living in the area. On the Navajo and Ute reservations, the backwater areas can be as blighted as any non-native area. Open sewage, open dumpsites, abandoned buildings, vehicles galore. Not to mean that they don't want pristene conditions as in the past, but seem to be as neglectful as non-natives in policing their own closed environments. Tribal laws if any regarding blight seems not to be regulated or enforced as closely as non-tribal zoning and environmental laws.

KT2000

(20,577 posts)
6. Come to NW Washington
Wed Mar 26, 2014, 03:53 PM
Mar 2014

and you will see the tribes involved in environmental restoration projects that have saved our little corner of the world. This area is an example of tribes saving a community.

Capt.Rocky300

(1,005 posts)
38. In our little corner of NW Washington.....
Wed Mar 26, 2014, 05:49 PM
Mar 2014

the local tribe has clearcut large tracts on the reservation, left the slash and not replanted. Not what I'd call environmentally friendly.

KT2000

(20,577 posts)
45. I see -
Wed Mar 26, 2014, 06:20 PM
Mar 2014

I guess I should be more specific as it is our local S'Klallam tribe in Sequim, Port Gamble and Port Angeles, especially the Sequim Jamestown. They are restoring the Elwha and Dungeness Rivers as well as some creeks and the bay at Port Gamble. They opened a large medical clinic that serves everyone and they take on Medicaid patients where other clinics will not. They have set up several businesses to assure employment for the tribe members and others - they are actually the second largest employer here, behind the hospital. They are front and center in protection of salmon.
Their many buildings are beautiful and artistic as opposed to the big box and hastily built metal structures that are going up.

They have a tribal leader, Ron Allen, who is a business genius in my opinion.
http://www.jamestowntribe.org/

Capt.Rocky300

(1,005 posts)
57. We have been following the progress....
Wed Mar 26, 2014, 09:27 PM
Mar 2014

on the restoration projects with great interest. Hats off to them for all they have done. Hopefully our local tribes on this side of the Sound will take a lesson from their brothers on your side.

MindMover

(5,016 posts)
7. I have also seen these conditions brought on by neglect and really a
Wed Mar 26, 2014, 03:54 PM
Mar 2014

hopeless, helpless feeling generated by an American society that cares little about who or what they represent ...

and I want to add that Native Americans have little respect for what American society holds important, ie: possessions, stuff, meaningless shit

slumcamper

(1,606 posts)
41. Aside from outright genocide, the effort to deculturalize American Indians by forcing a
Wed Mar 26, 2014, 05:57 PM
Mar 2014

Euro-American conception of "civilization" on them failed. While such efforts certainly inflicted great harm, they failed to destroy the essence of the earth-spirit that resonates in the words of Faith Spotted Eagle. The excessive private consumption and materialism that our economy feeds on is rejected; things will turn to dust. Spirit endures.

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
51. I also am quite fond of the reaction of a Native American elder to our
Wed Mar 26, 2014, 06:30 PM
Mar 2014

Habit of altering our clocks (Spring ahead, fall behind.)

"Only the white man thinks that by cutting off the top of a blanket and sewing it to the bottom of the blanket, that he now has a longer blanket!"

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
12. I'd imagine that's due more to regional poverty than age...
Wed Mar 26, 2014, 04:05 PM
Mar 2014

I'd imagine that's due more to a regional poverty coerced in part by early development, the Dawes Act era, and contemporary policy rather than by mere age...

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
29. Really? Come to Appalachia and see what European Americans have done.
Wed Mar 26, 2014, 05:15 PM
Mar 2014

What the Utes and Navajoes have done pales in comparison.

New guy, huh?

DustyJoe

(849 posts)
93. generations II
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 01:05 PM
Mar 2014

Yep, 6 years new. A low post count sometimes doesn't indicate time on the site. For me personally I try to post on topics I have personal knowledge or experience with. As I attempted to point out, for the Navajo especially. Tribal elders always have and still seem to hold a great reverence for land and life, while the current generations, not so much. Much to the dismay of the elders.

Rockyj

(538 posts)
67. In part this is true
Wed Mar 26, 2014, 10:26 PM
Mar 2014

Last edited Wed Mar 26, 2014, 11:48 PM - Edit history (1)

on my reservation in Oregon, and on most reservations. Old vehicles, appliances left outside etc., has more to do with not caring about white man ways such as; manicured lawns, planting flowers & bushes, etc.

 

Cofitachequi

(112 posts)
76. Not only visual blight, but pollution and poor resource managment.
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:13 PM
Mar 2014

I do environmental permitting, and the tribes can be as callous and unwilling to do the right thing in regards to wetland and resource managment as any greedy corportation. I was blown away when I got a hard time for trying to protect archaelogical sites from destruction on Indian land!!!!

KT2000

(20,577 posts)
4. In the Washington mudslide
Wed Mar 26, 2014, 03:49 PM
Mar 2014

The geologists for tribes in the area of the Washington mudslide warned of the possibility of a catastrophic slide years ago.
In the area where I live, the tribes are the ones that care about the environment. Since they are sovereign, they have great weight in negotiations with federal, state, county, and city governments. Their biologists, geologists are actually telling the truth whereas many consultants for government agencies are trying to deliver what the powers that be want to hear.

The tribes are saving us all.

love_katz

(2,579 posts)
42. ^^^^^This^^^^!
Wed Mar 26, 2014, 05:57 PM
Mar 2014


And, we know who funds the political campaigns of those who do not wish to listen to what traditional tribal people are saying, or try to minimize it.
 

Cofitachequi

(112 posts)
77. Posted this a few posts above yours on the thread. Thought you'd be interested.
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:15 PM
Mar 2014

I do environmental permitting, and the tribes can be as callous and unwilling to do the right thing in regards to wetland and resource managment as any greedy corportation. I was blown away when I got a hard time for trying to protect archaelogical sites from destruction on Indian land!!!!

 

Cofitachequi

(112 posts)
124. I've worked with Cherokee on and off trust lands in North Carolina and Tennessee.
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 02:58 PM
Mar 2014

I've been very pleased in that projects where the Cherokees had a regulatory role on projects where they were not the developers, they have been very easy to work with and very demanding about the quality of work, but at the same time, on projects where they were the developers and had to answer to the same processes, they fought tooth and n ail to try to short shrift the process. I was very surprised.

MindMover

(5,016 posts)
125. Now, you are talking about internal politics ...
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 03:01 PM
Mar 2014

"on projects where they were the developers and had to answer to the same processes, they fought tooth and n ail to try to short shrift the process. I was very surprised."

Please turn on the news and understand where the internal politics of this nation lie .... in bizzarro world ....

CountAllVotes

(20,870 posts)
126. tough folks
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 03:06 PM
Mar 2014

As someone with roots in these same areas, I know what my people are like. They are tough, resilient and most certainly not to be underestimated.

The Cherokee had their own government that worked quite well long before the white man arrived and stole their lands and just about everything else they had.

Thomas Jefferson ... thanks for nothing. *oink*

WatermelonRat

(340 posts)
9. While I know that there's a great number of Native Americans who are environmentally conscious,
Wed Mar 26, 2014, 04:01 PM
Mar 2014

they don't necessarily have authoritative knowledge on the subject by virtue of being Native American. A great many people of all races have come to the conclusion that this pipeline is bad news.

cstanleytech

(26,291 posts)
19. Yes they are entitled to their own opinion you are right and they are also right in that
Wed Mar 26, 2014, 05:02 PM
Mar 2014

a persons race does not have any bearing on their knowledge of whats "right" or "wrong" with any subject be it environmental or any other item.

MindMover

(5,016 posts)
21. My experience is definitely different than yours ...
Wed Mar 26, 2014, 05:07 PM
Mar 2014

and I am sure that African Americans can tell you something about what is right or wrong in America ...

If you knew what you were typing before trying to just be divisive in this thread then I might listen to you ... but you really do not know what you type ...

cstanleytech

(26,291 posts)
25. I'm not trying to be divisive I am trying to point out people are not superior on anything due to
Wed Mar 26, 2014, 05:11 PM
Mar 2014

their race.
If that was the case the BS the KKK spews about whites being superior to other races would be true.

MindMover

(5,016 posts)
28. Sorry but, the KKK is not a race, it is stupid white people ...
Wed Mar 26, 2014, 05:13 PM
Mar 2014

I think my African American friends know more about discrimination than my lily white ass knows ...

and my Native American friends can tell you a few stories about discrimination and desecration and desperation ... and that is just words starting with d

Moonwalk

(2,322 posts)
103. Knowing about racism is not the same as knowing about environmentalism. Racism happens because...
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 01:51 PM
Mar 2014

...of your skin color. Meaning people react to you, personally, on basis of ethnicity. Typically, your looks. I'm sure you could say that every friend you have who is overweight knows more about discrimination than all the naturally thin people you know, too.

But whether you are an environmentalist or not often is about your upbringing and culture and many cultures of many races as well as many private individuals have raised their children to hold the environment as sacred. One can be raised to feel this way no matter what one's race. Or would you argue that a white child raised by Native Americans who held the environment as sacred would somehow not "get it" and grow up to be a natural polluter, while the child who was genetically Native American would?

Saying that Native Americans are inherently knowledgable about environmentalism because of their race gets you into the old "noble savage" territory. Do we really want to go there?

MindMover

(5,016 posts)
105. You use the word savage and digress to arguments about racism ...
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 02:12 PM
Mar 2014

Last edited Thu Mar 27, 2014, 03:10 PM - Edit history (1)

I will humor you and acknowledge that you do not want to understand what my original post is about and that you are just hunkering down for a fight. So here ya go, feast on this ....

Have you ever contemplated what instincts truly are, if not the “cliff notes” of the accumulated knowledge which stems from the experiences of the consciousnesses that have preceded you?

Are instincts not inherent knowledge?

And if they are inherent knowledge from the consciousnesses that have preceded us, somewhere within us may be the inherent knowledge of the singularity, the consciousness from which we all originate.

I don’t need to ponder how much of that inherent knowledge is dormant, hidden, tucked away in many, because they need to influence the world to know they exist.

Curious enough, the observer is intangible. How real can reality be when the self that is determining it to be real is itself intangible?

cstanleytech

(26,291 posts)
155. Well of course members of the KKK are stupid but its not because they are white its
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 08:24 PM
Mar 2014

because they are racist assholes.

Revanchist

(1,375 posts)
133. Call all white people racist because of the KKK
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 03:42 PM
Mar 2014

is the same as calling all African Americans anti-Semites because of Louis Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam. Don't try to revile or praise a whole group of people due to the actions of a few.

 

Thor_MN

(11,843 posts)
44. I know, right?
Wed Mar 26, 2014, 06:09 PM
Mar 2014

and Asians know a lot about laundry and laying railroad track.

And for those who can't figure it out


 

Scuba

(53,475 posts)
13. The reward is small, and goes to a few. The risk is great and goes to many.
Wed Mar 26, 2014, 04:08 PM
Mar 2014

Same is true of the Geobic mine plan in Wisconsin.

unionthug777

(740 posts)
20. if the bad river have their way
Wed Mar 26, 2014, 05:03 PM
Mar 2014

there would be no mine. let's hope so. even though i am from Lac Du Flambeau, i think the mine will destroy the area. imho.

 

joeybee12

(56,177 posts)
22. Native americans, like many other people and cultures, are much more in touch
Wed Mar 26, 2014, 05:09 PM
Mar 2014

with the earth than the vast majority of us...knr

homegirl

(1,429 posts)
74. Really?
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:48 AM
Mar 2014

In my county Native American tribes have built the largest casino/convention center/hotel in the district, directly on the watershed. Sensitive to the environment, healthy living, I doubt it.

Some people are living in a dream world.




MindMover

(5,016 posts)
122. They probably built there casino on land treatied to them ...
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 02:50 PM
Mar 2014

in other words the only land they have to survive ...

Although, I like the picture in my mind about a roomful of Native Americans sitting around discussing how they will provide for there families and one says, let us sell the white man what they sold us, beads and trinkets for your land and treasures. We will give you what you seem to want, a chance for more beads and trinkets for your treasures ... brilliant, really ...brilliant .... and talk about Karma ... that is some Karma.

NYC Liberal

(20,136 posts)
120. "Native American" is not a singular culture or people.
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 02:48 PM
Mar 2014

Many NA tribes have historically done plenty of damage to the environment, particularly through hunting and deforestation (hundreds of years before Europeans arrived). Every culture is a mix of good and bad people and practices.

MindMover

(5,016 posts)
123. Where do you get your information ..? (hundreds of years before Europeans arrived).
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 02:54 PM
Mar 2014

I agree with "Every culture is a mix of good and bad people and practices."

MindMover

(5,016 posts)
131. Thank you ... and yes they had differences ...
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 03:38 PM
Mar 2014

but when you have to live off the land, you have respect for that land ...

I can generalize in saying they lived off the land ... and had/have respect for the land.

yawnmaster

(2,812 posts)
35. Oh it is funded...
Wed Mar 26, 2014, 05:42 PM
Mar 2014

it is the Foxwoods Resort Casino in Ledyard, Connecticut and operated by the Mashantucket Pequot Tribe.



MindMover

(5,016 posts)
37. I will not get into casino/resorts owned by Native American tribes ...
Wed Mar 26, 2014, 05:44 PM
Mar 2014

and this thread is not about casino/resorts ...

Although, I like the picture in my mind about a roomful of Native Americans sitting around discussing how they will provide for there families and one says, let us sell the white man what they sold us, beads and trinkets for your land and treasures. We will give you what you seem to want, a chance for more beads and trinkets for your treasures ... brilliant, really ...brilliant .... and talk about Karma ... that is some Karma.

This thread is about a Native American innate knowledge about our environment ....

If you have a bone to pick about the ownership or the environmental impact of casinos/resorts by N.A. then I would suggest you take it up with the Federal Government ...

MindMover

(5,016 posts)
89. If your post could mean something, I would respond ...
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:56 PM
Mar 2014

unfortunately, you have made yourself perfectly unintelligible ...

yawnmaster

(2,812 posts)
94. It means that humans are not born with innate knowledge beyond...
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 01:08 PM
Mar 2014

reflexes on how to grip, suck, and avoid falling (and similar simple reflexes).

To say that a group of humans (such as Native Americans) somehow have an innate knowledge of the environment is romantic thinking at best, and more likely just propaganda.

The environmental knowledge you mention is learned. It is not innate.
Look at the background of an individual not their genetics to determine if they should be trusted for a given subject.

Brickbat

(19,339 posts)
60. THAT DOESN'T COUNT.
Wed Mar 26, 2014, 09:38 PM
Mar 2014

Because survival and federal government and it doesn't match the OP' narrative, you big meanie.

 

Demo_Chris

(6,234 posts)
46. This is rascism and fake spirituality...
Wed Mar 26, 2014, 06:21 PM
Mar 2014

Sorry, but being Native American doesn't make you more environmentally or spiritually enlightened. It might (and should) make you more skeptical of government BS, but that's about it.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
52. I toss that up to her being a smart lady, rather than because of her race
Wed Mar 26, 2014, 06:31 PM
Mar 2014

But y'know. Whatever gets the point across, I guess.

MindMover

(5,016 posts)
56. I can tell you about some good cheese and wines ... and I speak one of those funny sounding ...
Wed Mar 26, 2014, 06:58 PM
Mar 2014

romantic languages ...

Kaleva

(36,301 posts)
58. And I trust the Germans on matters concerning....
Wed Mar 26, 2014, 09:32 PM
Mar 2014

There's a descriptive word for those who attribute characteristics, either positive or negative, to a race or nationality.

 

lonestarnot

(77,097 posts)
68. I don't know about that as I am not familiar with race and stewardship of planet earth.
Wed Mar 26, 2014, 10:29 PM
Mar 2014

I would agree with what I know, but do not claim to be an expert. Oh and I consider fracking to be a form of legalized terrorism.

ffr

(22,670 posts)
75. I've come full circle from my thinking towards Native Americans
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:07 PM
Mar 2014

We taught they were simple people who didn't know there was a better way of doing things, the European anglo way of doing things.

Now, even before this graphic, I'm seeing they were right all along and we have it totally wrong.

malthaussen

(17,195 posts)
82. Hardly full circle. 180 degrees.
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:28 PM
Mar 2014

When you come full circle, you will recognize that the indigenous peoples have flaws you hadn't considered previously. The way to wisdom is not to categorize whole populations based on incomplete knowledge.

-- Mal

dilby

(2,273 posts)
78. Would you trust them on their feelings towards the Federal Government?
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:16 PM
Mar 2014

I trust people based on logic not superstition and romantic fiction.

MindMover

(5,016 posts)
84. So your point is ridiculous ...
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:39 PM
Mar 2014

Your point is based on a person, because they have been wronged by government, taking revenge on the government by opposing a private corporations raping our land for profit and further destruction of our planet earth.

I would suggest you go back to my last post and start reading ...

dilby

(2,273 posts)
88. My point is you don't blanket support a group based on a person.
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:56 PM
Mar 2014

Nor based on what you perceive as the groups belief. The idea that someone is more knowledgeable about government or the environment based on their race is ridiculous. What the person said was right, giving them special credit based on their race was not.

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
80. "Noble savage" cartoonish nonsense.
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:20 PM
Mar 2014

Simply being a NA doesn't make one more in tune with the environment.

That's tantamount to "Asians are better at math" and "women are better caregivers" just by nature of being Asian or female. Positive stereotypes are still stereotypes.

 

AlbertCat

(17,505 posts)
85. I trust Native Americans to know what is bad for our environment ...
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:41 PM
Mar 2014

Well, I trust people schooled in environmental sciences....regardless of where their ancestors came from.

MindMover

(5,016 posts)
86. I and others have already made your important point but thank you for ...
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:45 PM
Mar 2014

your enlightened input ...

Butt, I do want to remind you that several reports from the scientific community used by our state department have been used to support Keystone and most probably will be used again ... so what is your comment about those reports ...?

 

AlbertCat

(17,505 posts)
92. It doesn't take a report....
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 01:04 PM
Mar 2014

...... to know that a Mississippi River of toxic sludge in a pipe is a baaaaaaaad idea.

MindMover

(5,016 posts)
97. You finally say something that is true and logical ...
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 01:30 PM
Mar 2014

"It doesn't take a report to know that a Mississippi River of toxic sludge in a pipe is a baaaaaaaaad idea."

That should be your bumper sticker...

 

AlbertCat

(17,505 posts)
99. You finally say something that is true and logical ...
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 01:35 PM
Mar 2014

My post about trusting or not trusting someone just because of their ancestry was also true and logical.

MindMover

(5,016 posts)
104. And you do not understand or know everything ...
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 02:00 PM
Mar 2014

I trust that the Jewish people know persecution.

I trust that African Americans know discrimination.

I trust that Native Americans know what is bad for our environment.

 

AlbertCat

(17,505 posts)
108. And you do not understand or know everything ...
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 02:15 PM
Mar 2014

Aaaaaaand....who said I did.

I don't trust huge generalizations based on stereotypes.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
100. I have driven past this place for 20 years.
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 01:40 PM
Mar 2014


It was clearcut four years ago, left like this, and never replanted.

If it were not part of the sovereign Quinault Indian Nation, state laws would have required better treatment and conscientious forest practices.

Your trust is misplaced.

MindMover

(5,016 posts)
113. I think your picture is for this purpose ...
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 02:37 PM
Mar 2014

"MANUFACTURING
The tribe operates two small mills which manufacture cedar shake shingles and cedar fences. Between 10 and 20 tribal members are employed in these ventures."

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
127. No, shake mills are uninvolved in clear cuts.
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 03:19 PM
Mar 2014

collection of cedar blocks is wasteful and disruptive in its own way, but isn't responsible for this mess.

MindMover

(5,016 posts)
128. In my research I found that land was parceled to individual tribal members ...
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 03:32 PM
Mar 2014

this is a member that wants his land clear cut ... ?

I have neighbors that park there RVs, boats, trailers, old autos, broken buildings, and many other unsightly stuff all over ....

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
132. Forest practices laws in Washington dictate what remediation private landowners must do.
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 03:42 PM
Mar 2014

I understood that this tribal land was owned in common. I could be wrong, but it's not relevant to the issue. The forest practices rules of the Quinault Indian Nation (if there are any) didn't prevent this example of really gross forest practices negligence.

http://www.dnr.wa.gov/BusinessPermits/Topics/ForestPracticesRules/Pages/fp_rules.aspx

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
135. The one I have in mind is roughly 100 acres.
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 03:48 PM
Mar 2014

I'm only this familiar with it because I drive through it on the logging access road frequently and have been watching their lack of reforestation progress. I am told that it is representative. It is distinctly unlike the clear cuts in the national forest nearby.

MindMover

(5,016 posts)
136. Of course you know that this tribe only owns 200,000 + acres ...
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 03:52 PM
Mar 2014

down from the original treaty stating they owned 688,000 acres and that most if not all the clear cutting is due to corporations ...

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
138. The QIN has sold much of their holdings.
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 03:54 PM
Mar 2014

Which is okay because at least "the corporations" they sold to are subject to Washington forest practices rules.

MindMover

(5,016 posts)
141. Exactly my point ... sold much of their holdings to the government for pennies ...
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 03:57 PM
Mar 2014

and many tribal members have sold their lands for pennies ....

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
144. We're drifting off topic.
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 04:04 PM
Mar 2014

The lands they "sold for pennies" are managed in a more environmentally conscientious way than (at least this one) that they kept. It calls into question the biased view that native americans should inherently be trusted in that regard.

The people who decided how to manage this clear cut should not, in any way, be trusted.

CBGLuthier

(12,723 posts)
107. Because they are primitive and closer to the land? Nothing like a little soft bigotry.
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 02:14 PM
Mar 2014

Are they spiritual? Do they all have visions? Oh tell us about our great brothers and how monolithic they are. Did you go in a sweatlodge and have a vision of it all?

The shit people say about native americans is kind of getting old. Racist stereotypes have no value in this century.

MindMover

(5,016 posts)
146. Your link points to an obviously ugly portrayal of Native Americans ...
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 04:04 PM
Mar 2014

of course you know that ... and just want to encourage the fighting ...

and you limit your intelligence by using such inflammatory allegories ...

gollygee

(22,336 posts)
147. Well you looked at it for three seconds then, apparently
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 04:05 PM
Mar 2014

Look down to "Noble Savage stereotype"

Or google "Noble Savage stereotype"

It being a stereotype that tries to be nice doesn't make it less limiting or OK.

Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #107)

mathematic

(1,439 posts)
110. I trust European Americans to know what is good for our economic well being.
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 02:25 PM
Mar 2014

Gosh, that sure sounds bad when I say it like that. I wonder why.

mathematic

(1,439 posts)
118. Your post is about cashing in on longheld racist stereotypes
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 02:47 PM
Mar 2014

What's the point of thinking Native Americans are inherently environmentalists and knowledgeable on environmental science if you can't trot them out to support your political positions when it's convenient?

yawnmaster

(2,812 posts)
112. apparently the Pequot tribe, at least, has other innate knowledge!
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 02:36 PM
Mar 2014
http://www.foxwoods.com/aboutus.aspx

Humans generally behave like humans. In general, they protect their immediate environment and their offspring.
How they do this can be cultural and it changes based on the local environment ("local" size can change).
Here the Pequot tribe (and of course a number of other tribes) are using the casino laws to help ensure that their tribe survives and thrives. In some cases environmental causes ensure the same thing.

Sometimes "race" can be used to make a point or strengthen an argument, and sometimes for propaganda.
This is not to say in the OP above that the Yankton Sioux are being disingenuous, as I suspect they are not, but one cannot take that one position and logically expand it to all Native Americans.



 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
137. Okay, do you think Jews are better with money and blacks have more rhythm, too?
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 03:52 PM
Mar 2014

I'm not sure what's worse, racist stereotyping or the fact that so many people agree with it.

MindMover

(5,016 posts)
142. I believe that Native Americans have an understanding and reverence for the land they stand on ...
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 03:59 PM
Mar 2014

and all of your race baiting comments will not alter that belief...

MindMover

(5,016 posts)
148. That is your opinion ...
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 04:06 PM
Mar 2014

I am attributing a trait to a race which I know exists ...
.
You are race baiting ...

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
149. Mine and that of quite a lot of other people on this thread
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 04:07 PM
Mar 2014

helpful hint: if 20 different people tell you that what you've just said is racist? It's probably racist.

MindMover

(5,016 posts)
150. Racism .... Really ... >?
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 04:15 PM
Mar 2014

rac·ism [rey-siz-uhm]
noun
1.
a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2.
a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3.
hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
152. Yep, racism
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 04:21 PM
Mar 2014

Believing that Native Americans have some innate sense of attunement with the environment is just as much an expression of racist belief as believing that Asians are inherently better at math, or that Jews are "good with money", or that the Irish have a sense of humour. It's ascribing a characteristic on the basis of membership in a racial/ethnic group. That is racism by definition.

Kali

(55,008 posts)
153. Native Americans are not monolithic.
Thu Mar 27, 2014, 04:31 PM
Mar 2014

they are human beings like everyone else. some are assholes and some near-saints, most are regular people just like you or me. NA "culture" is not a single entity either. There is great variation.

Fake adulation is as insulting as hostile racism to a lot of indigenous people.

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