Thoughts on polyamory -- group marriage?

[Emelina]

&feature=youtube_gdata -- interview with anthropologist Janet Bennion.

My question is do you know people who are progressives who live in some sort of group marriage? I have heard it is not uncommon in places like San Francisco, Seattle and Portland. So does it work? Should such arrangements be afforded marriage rights for all participants?

[Marrah_G]

1. Very, very rarely ever works out

I've known lots of people that tried it and have never seen it successful.

[GliderGuider]

2. I agree. Poly can work OK for short-term relationships, but not well for longer ones

Open dyads are more successful, but multi-party long-term relationships usually succumb to the complexity of the interpersonal dynamics. They require more deep honesty and lack of ego than most people are capable of.

[Lizzie Poppet]

3. As others point out, they tend not to last in the long term...

...but that's not really relevant to the matter of whether or not they should be permitted (and accorded the same rights as other marriages). Assuming genuine informed consent by all involved parties, it's no one's business but their own.

[LittleBlue]

4. I don't care what consenting adults do

They should be able to marry as they wish.

[shanemcg]

10. I agree

I don't believe the government should be involved in relationships at all.

I've been married and I've lived with people not married and I don't believe in married tax rates for any one. I do believe that people should be allowed to take deductions for dependents, but there should be but one tax status filing.

As for children and such, it seems to work fine in regards to child support whether the parties are married legally or not, so in my view we can just get the government out of the business of marriage and relationships completely.

I think the government has enough on its' plate without trying to sort out all our business.

[GliderGuider]

5. Property settlement during a divorce would be a real nightmare.

Child support issues too. Our whole family law system is based on dyadic marriage. I have no moral or ethical objection at all, but the practical difficulties are a real show-stopper when it comes to giving a 4- or 5-way marriage legal status. Especially in an quasi-egalitarian society like ours.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

7. Nightmare is an understatement. Also, I have no objection but, would not be personally interested -

just thinking about the possibilities of outcomes as suggested above is enough to give me pause.

[yurbud]

11. I suspect divorce lawyers are the only ones pushing polyamory for this very reason.

[GliderGuider]

17. Polyamory is not the same as plural marriage.

Marriage of any sort is a legal institution. Polyamory is an issue of the heart. It's no wonder that the going gets rough when the two run into each other.

[Zorra]

19. The difference between polyamory and polygamy is:

Polyamory (from Greek ???ύ poly, "many, several", and Latin amor, "love&quot is the practice, desire, or acceptance of having more than one intimate relationship at a time with the knowledge and consent of everyone involved. It is distinct from Swinging (which emphasizes sex with others as merely recreational) and may or may not include polysexuality (attraction towards multiple genders and/or sexes)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyamory

Polyamory is not polygamy, which is illegal:

Polygamy (from Late Greek ???????ί?, polygamia, "state of marriage to many spouses" or "frequent marriage&quot [1][2][3][4] is a marriage that includes more than two partners.
---snip
Forms of polygamy

Polygamy exists in three specific forms: polygyny - wherein a man has multiple simultaneous wives; polyandry - wherein a woman has multiple simultaneous husbands; or group marriage - wherein the family unit consists of multiple husbands and multiple wives. Anthropologists treat serial monogamy, in which divorce and remarriage occur, as a form of polygamy as it also establishes a series of households that continue to be tied by shared paternity and shared income.[15] Ambiguity arises when the broad term "polygamy" is used when a specific form of polygamy is being referred to. Additionally, different countries may or may not include all forms in their laws on polygamy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy

[GliderGuider]

22. It's worth pointing out - most people have only hazy, erroneous ideas about this stuff.

I've been in a wide variety of long-term relationships - an open marriage, two closed dyads, and a polyamorous FMF triad.

In terms of interpersonal difficulty, the triad was at the top of the list. People seem to go into them with stars in their eyes, and realize too late that they have unresolved issues they aren't willing to work on

The biggest problem with an open dyad is the attitudes of the various third parties - lots of jealousy and fear gets imported from society-at-large.

For me, closed dyads are the most stable and the deepest. But they can also be the most expensive when they blow up and the lawyers smell blood in the water.

I'm a romantic at heart though. My current, and hopefully last relationship is a Twin Flame that shows no signs of flickering.

The human heart is boundlessly inventive. Human legal institutions are much less so.

[Zorra]

46. "most people have only hazy, erroneous ideas about this stuff."

It's pretty clear that many have difficulty grasping polyamory, or have trouble understanding that polyamory is a totally different from polygamy.

The drama and problems being projected on polyamorous relationship seems to be coming from the perspective of a culture of institutionalized monogamy that has difficulty thinking outside the Judeo-Christian box, and difficulty in conceiving that many people can actually have extremely successful relationships without bringing all the baggage and drama common to monogamous relationships.

People who identify as polyamorous typically reject the view that sexual and relational exclusivity are necessary for deep, committed, long-term loving relationships. Those who are open to, or emotionally suited for, polyamory may embark on a polyamorous relationship when single or already in a monogamous or open relationship. Sex is not necessarily a primary focus in polyamorous relationships, which commonly consist of people seeking to build long-term relationships with more than one person on mutually agreeable grounds, with sex as only one aspect of their relationships. In practice, polyamorous relationships are highly varied and individualized according to those participating. For many, such relationships are ideally built upon values of trust, loyalty, the negotiation of boundaries, and compersion, as well as overcoming jealousy, possessiveness, and the rejection of restrictive cultural standards.[10] Powerful intimate bonding among three or more persons may occur. The skills and attitudes needed to manage polyamorous relationships add challenges that are not often found in the traditional "dating-and-marriage" model of long-term relationships. Polyamory may require a more fluid and flexible approach to love relationship, and yet operate on a complex system of boundaries or rules. Additionally, participants in a polyamorous relationship may not have, nor expect their partners to have, preconceptions as to the duration of the relationship, in contrast to monogamous marriages where a lifelong union is generally the goal. However, polyamorous relationships can and do last many years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyamory

[yurbud]

51. you should tell conservatives you're in a closed dyad

even if it's hetero, they will think it sounds like some new kind of kink and freak out.

[GliderGuider]

52. That's just the sort of thing that tickles my funnybone!

When I was young I told an elderly woman I met on a train that I was a "Reformed Druid". She asked what we believed in, and with a straight face I said "Human sacrifice." End of convo. This would be a little more subtle than that, though.

[yurbud]

56. I had a conversation with a guy on a train like that once.

He introduced himself as "Gray Wolf," and I said, "Oh, are you a Native American?"

He said, "No, I'm a SHAMAN!" He answered excitedly like he was a missionary getting ready to pounce.

He was a white guy wearing a pocket protector, and I had 20 more hours left in my ride, so I excused myself and moved to another seat.

[yurbud]

43. thanks. I still think its good for divorce lawyers at most

[energumen]

20. It need not be any different from a business arrangement

with multiple partners. Everything would need to be spelled out, in a legally enforceable contract, on what would happen during the dissolution of the marriage. If every marriage was approached this way divorce might be easier and less adversarial.

[ZombieHorde]

6. I think it should be legal, but there are some issues.

We all know about Mormon compounds and misogynist religious practices and child marriage and all of that horror, so I don't need to touch upon that. I don't know if legalizing plural marriage would bring those folks out in the open since they're such a closed, controlled group.

The main issue that I can think of for non oppressive polyamorous relationships is they involve people, and people are crazy. Many two-person marriages don't work out, and adding more people adds more problems.

Sometimes a married couple will go through temporary boyfriends and girlfriends without too many troubles, but that is different. To have three or more people who love each other, are sexually attracted to each other, and want to be a family is rare. Most people are raised to be in two-person romantic relationships, so jealousy is really common.

On the other hand, seems like there is a lot of potential to cut down on domestic abuse. The person being abused is not as isolated, unless all the other spouses are joining in on the abuse.

I don't see any reason to take someone's money or force people into cages for living this way if it is not coerced by the other spouses. I see no reason to not grant the legal benefits of marriage to a group of people.

[Emelina]

8. Only know one example

I brought this up as I was recently talking to someone who was a bi-sexual woman who said the happiest relationship she was ever in was a three-way situation with another woman and a man. Problem was he became jealose of their romance.

Maybe there are people who can do this. If the people are all committed then it seems possible.

[Zorra]

9. I'm polyamorous. No, I don't know anyone who lives in some sort of group marriage.

I am currently involved in two intimate relationships with the knowledge and consent of everyone involved, and have in the past been involved in three relationships under the same conditions. Neither of my partners personally knows the other, but both are aware of, and are accepting of, the respective other.

You seem to me to be confusing polyamory with polygamy.

Polyamory (from Greek ???ύ poly, "many, several", and Latin amor, "love&quot is the practice, desire, or acceptance of having more than one intimate relationship at a time with the knowledge and consent of everyone involved. It is distinct from Swinging (which emphasizes sex with others as merely recreational) and may or may not include polysexuality (attraction towards multiple genders and/or sexes)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyamory

Polyamory is not polygamy, which is illegal:

Polygamy (from Late Greek ???????ί?, polygamia, "state of marriage to many spouses" or "frequent marriage&quot [1][2][3][4] is a marriage that includes more than two partners.
---snip
Forms of polygamy

Polygamy exists in three specific forms: polygyny - wherein a man has multiple simultaneous wives; polyandry - wherein a woman has multiple simultaneous husbands; or group marriage - wherein the family unit consists of multiple husbands and multiple wives. Anthropologists treat serial monogamy, in which divorce and remarriage occur, as a form of polygamy as it also establishes a series of households that continue to be tied by shared paternity and shared income.[15] Ambiguity arises when the broad term "polygamy" is used when a specific form of polygamy is being referred to. Additionally, different countries may or may not include all forms in their laws on polygamy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy

[MineralMan]

12. I leave people to come up with their own relationships.

It doesn't affect me, one way or another, so I have no real comment on this.

[KamaAina]

13. Two of my FB peeps are poly

One accidentally outed herself to her family through her FB posts!

[yurbud]

44. tell the story!

[KamaAina]

45. Well, that's basically all I know

she didn't go into details beyond that a family member saw her posts and figured out she might be poly.

edit: She is presently applying to divinity school. She describes herself as a "Jewnitarian"!! Oh yes, she is a former DUer.

[yurbud]

50. what did she post that made her parents suspect something most people don't know exists?

[KamaAina]

57. I think it was a sibling, not the parental units

Your piqued curiosity about this is... noted.

[yurbud]

14. the only good argument is something said on BIG LOVE about polygamy:

Everybody else has multiple partners too, either through adultery or divorce.

The polies don't throw people away, they keep them in the family.

I personally couldn't handle either. It would be like 17 dimensional chess and I'd have to share the bathroom with too many people.

[bettyellen]

36. Except that's BS, poly Mormons toss off wives to new husbands as punishment

Sending them off to different communities and separating moms from their kids.
They also routinely ditch teen boys who don't have great "connections" when they hit puberty. These kids are exiled so they guys running it have their choice of more teen girls. It's a sick parody of family where women are often treated like slaves.

[yurbud]

42. yeah, I was playing devil's advocate. Like a lot of things, its "merits" on paper don't pan out in

practice.

[jollyreaper2112]

15. fun in theory

That are the odds of a coin toss? 50%, right? Heads twice? .5x.5=25%. Three times? .5x.5.x5=12.5%. I think relationships scale the same way. Odds of two people working? x%. And you keep multiplying by x. The more people involved, the higher the chance of failure.

That's my take on it. I think people are pretty stupid this way.

[ismnotwasm]

16. Not my business

As is pointed out-- if it becomes a legal marriage society is not set up for divorce.

Other than that long term, short term-- I suspect polyamory happens more often than people think

[GliderGuider]

18. Waaay more often than people think.

It's not something you talk about in check-out lines.

[Zorra]

21. I am going on a sort of gathering of artists in the desert with a group of about 40

polyamorous people for four days at the end of this month. (It's not going to be a wild ritualistic pagan orgy, like some may be thinking who read this) but it will be life enriching. There will be several other groups of artists (ie painters, sculptors, writers, poets, musicians, etc.) who are not polyamorous as well.

There are an ever increasing number of polyamorous people out there; polyamory simply involves openness to multiple loving relationships, with honesty among all partners.

[ismnotwasm]

53. Sounds lovely

And creative, I hope you have a wonderful time

[pipi_k]

23. Consenting adults and...

all of that.

I really don't care what they do with each other.


My only concern is what happens to kids in whatever relationship brought them about, whether it's polyamory, heterosexual, homosexual, whatever.

If people want to do whatever with their own lives, fine.

Just don't fuck with kids' heads, or their hearts.

[ScootersPixiePie]

24. I'm Poly

And I am open about it. What I/we do in our home has no bearing on *your* life.

[Jesus Malverde]

25. Marriage is a conservative construct that is largely a failure for straight couples.

Why is it touted out as some holy grail? Better to create institutions and laws that make it easier to give the special rights conferred on married people to all regardless of status. Make them easy to change without involving lawyers, courts and clergy.

[Emelina]

26. Great insights thus far! Thanks.

[JustAnotherGen]

27. If it works for others

Kudos to for them!

Me - wouldn't work. My husband is the picture in the kindergarten teachers' handbook for the description of the child that "Does not share well with others."

[seabeyond]

29. "My husband is the picture in the kindergarten teachers' handbook...."

bah hahahah. that is funny, gen. too cute. i bet. lol lol.

ya. wouldnt work for most of us. says something.

[JustAnotherGen]

33. Says you!

He gave a guy a look at Home Depot on Saturday - I thought the guy was going to wet his pants!

[Nye Bevan]

28. Having to remember *two* spouses' birthdays?

No thanks.

[arcane1]

30. I know several people in such situations, the rules vary from group to group.

Though it's most commonly a pair of married people who also date others.

Whatever works for the individuals involved is fine with me. I've been in open relationships as well as closed ones and they are both a pain to me

[Kelvin Mace]

31. Children can make such relationships problematic

with lots of legal headaches in relationships where things go South.

That said, I know a "triad" (no children) that has been together for 25 years now.

[riqster]

32. Polygamy is illegal: polyamory is not.

I like to tell people that everyone is polyamorous - "do you love your wife and your kids? Do you love your mama and your husband?" It helps to open minds a bit as they think about the manifold ways humans can relate to one another.

I know couples that have tried poly and failed, and some that have succeeded. Just like those in mono relationships. As far as I am concerned, more power to anyone who has a successful, loving relationship. And best of luck to all of us in working towards that goal.

[Emelina]

34. Can polygamy and polyamory exist at the same time in a relationship?

Let's say you have one man and two or three women who have a polygamist relationship but the women are also romantically involved with each other. Doesn't that fit into both polygamy and polyamory?

[Humanist_Activist]

35. Some type of legal protections should be involved, even can call it marriage if they wish...

on an ethical level I find nothing wrong with it, as long as everyone participating is of the age of consent and does consent, the tricky part is with the legal wrangling that can result in inheritance, child custody, etc.

I do think things such as hospital visitation, right of attorney and other "next of kin" rights should be extended to whoever you feel comfortable giving them to with as little legal barriers as possible. All combinations possible that you can think of apply.

[PCIntern]

37. "Man on Dog"...

where is he when you need him? I'd be interested in HIS feelings in the matter...

[Warren DeMontague]

38. Florida

just a guess

[REP]

39. Yup, we're all group married out here in the Bay Area

Okay, not in the Bay Area. Parts of Utah, and God told us to do it.

[tabbycat31]

40. I have no problem with it

As long as all of the parties involved are consenting adults and consent to the marriage.

What I do have a problem with is the FLDS style polygamous marriages (I've read several books by women who have escaped) marrying off 15 year old girls to 50 something men and nobody consents (except for the man, who will be sleeping with a teen girl). Most of the other wives are miserable when the girl comes along and would not consent.

[haele]

41. It's great until there's a conflict in personal heierarchies of need. Rather like communes.

And while I have been active in the SCA since the early 1980's, I saw lots of small groups of "like minded adults" that attempted polyamours and/or communal household relationships.

In my observations, a grouping of Diads with a primary couple is easier to manage and tends to be more sustainable than groupings of Triads (or more), because when there's a major conflict, the extra person(s) will always be drawn in to take sides.
Without there being a position of recognized authority within the group or a serious attempt to maintain strong, equitable rules of approved and unacceptable activity within the poly relationships that have specific codes and responsibilities. That person or pair will also have to have a serious amount of charisma or otherwise be able to provide for all the other member's emotional needs to be able to keep that position within the group.
Once the leader(s) loses influence, or "the rules" fail to keep the peace, the group will tend to splinter.
My opinion is that the only way poligamy works is when there's a cultural bias towards it, which tend to have a lot of baggage, no matter what cultural basis it comes from.
As it is, most U.S. Poly relationships that aren't based off a cultural tradition, charasmatic cult of personality, or of an authoritarian matriarchal or patriarchal model tend to break down as soon as there's a serious conflict or the members outside the primary diad(s) or group begin to feel neglected/envious/dissatisfied.

There may be a few that are based more off bonds of friendship and trust than actual "amory", but I have yet to observe a poly or communal household relationship that can sustain an equatable atmosphere that provides satisfaction to all the participants within those relationships.

Haele


Haele

[In_The_Wind]

47. I'm polyamorous.

I did know other polyamorous families on the east coast but I didn't stay in touch with them.

[distantearlywarning]

48. I used to be supportive of it, until...

Two very close friends, who were polyamorous, decided to "help" my husband see the light of polyamory by encouraging him to cheat on me with the woman of the pair. Everyone involved except me knew for months. They all decided that my (up to that point) monogamous marriage was now open, but I never got a vote, or even the courtesy of being clued in to what was going on.

When the S eventually HTF (as you might imagine that it would), and I expressed my shock, betrayal, and anger, the only response I received was an email telling me that I needed to get over my irrational hangups and work on my jealousy and unenlightened attitudes, etc. I was also blamed for ruining my husband's life, and for hurting my poly friends' feelings. There was no apology or even any explanation for any of it. Again, keep in mind that I had no fucking clue what was going on, nobody told me a thing or asked whether I was ok with any of it or anything. It was just suddenly dumped on me after it had been going on for 9 months. They basically inflicted poly and poly social norms on me without my knowledge or consent and then attacked me when I refused to participate. It was literally the worst moment of my entire life to date. I felt like I had been run over by a bus and everyone was standing over my dying body yelling at me because I dared to interrupt their commute.

It destroyed my 9 year marriage and a five-year friendship. It also wrecked our entire social group, because we had a lot of friends in common. I was in the final stages of my Ph.D. dissertation work (2 weeks before my defense date), and I was so emotionally wrecked that I had to delay by 7 months and nearly failed out of my program.

I have told this horrible story in multiple places, and I always get the same response:

"That's not polyamory, polyamory involves honesty, etc etc"

Here's the thing, though. These people talked the poly party line and they lived the poly lifestyle. If you read the poly blogs on the internet and look at what they say about jealousy and which parties are responsible for drama and pain, these are the same things they said to me after the affair came to light. They were "leaders" in the poly community in our large city. There was nothing about them that would suggest that they were in any way not mainstream poly people, and they portrayed themselves and their lifestyle that way to others. If they "weren't poly", then somebody might want to inform all of the people they came in contact with, tried to sell the lifestyle to, etc. Because I sure as hell thought they were what poly was before they did that to me, and I totally respected their marriage, etc, while they were secretly and deliberately undermining mine.

I'm sure that this will be a very unpopular viewpoint, but I no longer give a shit: I think polyamory as a philosophy is primarily designed to allow selfish people to act selfishly without consequences, to disguise that selfishness under a very nice-sounding veneer (enlightenment! loving lots of people freely! allowing other to follow their hearts! purging one's own negative emotions!), and in many cases to assign all the blame to those who suffer the most as a result of their selfishness.

My own experience with polyamory and poly people was quite literally the worst thing that ever happened to my life, and I have no desire at all to ever repeat the experience. And frankly, I hope this lifestyle fad dies a quick death before it wrecks anyone else's life like it did mine.

P.S. Before anyone even goes there, I am in NO WAY suggesting that my friends were responsible for my husband's betrayal. I have assigned him every scrap of blame he is due and probably more. He went there completely on his own and could have said no at any time. Instead, I am speaking here of the responsibility my friends bear towards me, irrespective of him. Just as they are not responsible for him or his behavior, he is not responsible for them or theirs. They and I had a relationship too, and they used my trust in them and our relationship to deceive and betray me, they did it deliberately with malice aforethought, they justified every minute of their behavior via polyamory, and they used the tenets of polyamory as a weapon against me when I objected to their actions. That is what I am talking about here, not my husband's bullshit.

ON EDIT: I am also not making any statement about legality. At my core I still have no interest in what other people do in the privacy of their own homes. I just think poly is a shitty, self-delusional life philosophy that hurts people. If someone wants to practice shitty, hurtful, self-delusion in their own living room, have at it. I just don't personally want to have anything to do with it.

[Gravitycollapse]

49. It works for very few people. For everyone else, it will fail miserably.

I've witnessed this first hand. Most human beings are not socialized to be legitimately polyamorous and most of us lack the emotional and intellectual structure to exist in multiple committed relationships at once. What happens is a tendency to spread one's love too thin and this creates conflict and neglect and eventually some or all of the relationships will fall apart.

Real polyamorous relationships (and not just sexual promiscuity) are extremely rare.

[stevenleser]

54. I have no interest in telling fully consenting adults what kinds of relationships and marriage they

can have.

Aside from that, marriage to more than one person sounds like a prescription for disaster. Most of us have a hard enough time making a relationship with one person work long term. Throw another person into the mix and the complexities that a three way intimate relationship brings into it and man, it gives me a headache just thinking about it.

I don't want any part of that.

If others do, however, that is their business.

[djean111]

55. I don't really think being "progresive" has anything to do with it.

In fact, I think of it as a sort of right wing thing to do.
That being said, I don't have an opinion about it being right or wrong, I am not all that interested in others' sex and/or love lives, unless they impact me directly and personally.
As long as people are happy and okay with it, none of my beeswax.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

58. i think it could work in a gender egalitarian society

but otherwise it is generally super oppressive to women.

since, i don't consider society at large to be gender egalitarian, i would be against making this legal.

i know, that some will think this is hypocritical given the gays fight for equal marriage, but unlike gay marriage, polygamy has been tried and has been shown to be oppressive to women. it is not particularly a hypothetical argument, but a historical argument.



( i am talking about polygamy not polyamory)

[Prophet 451]

59. I know one poly triad

Seems to work for them but they've only been a triad for under a year so who knows if it'll work long term.

As long as everyone involved is of age, consenting and unrelated, I have absolutely no problem with polyamoury.

[Xithras]

60. My FIL has been in three polyamorous relationships, including one poly "marriage".

They didn't last. Jealousy eventually destroyed them all...including his relationship to my wife's mother. Basic human psychology says that all groups will eventually develop a hierarchy. Nobody wants to be the lowest person in that hierarchy, and that unhappiness eventually breeds jealousy and distrust. Interestingly though, he's been married to his current wife for 12 years now, and they started out as a poly relationship. Although the other people (originally one other man and two other women) dropped away, the two of them are still together and have a strong and healthy marriage (I believe that they still have an open marriage, but I've never specifically asked.)

My own marriage is "unconventional" (partly owing to the fact that my wife grew up in such a sexually liberal household), but neither of us has any interest in a polyamorous relationship. Over the long term, they rarely work out.