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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHomeowner caught on tape "finishing off" teen burglars. Murder or self defense?
Byron Smith recorded the double slaying in his Little Falls basement and on the second day of his murder trial the crystal clear audio was played to a silent courtroom, except for a woman holding back sobs.
In the recording, glass can be heard breaking, movement, then two gunshots as Nick Brady, 17, groans, 'Oh.' To this, Smith responds: 'You're dead,' the Star Tribune reports.
Then the rustling of a tarpaulin can be heard and a dragging sound as Smith, breathing heavily, moves the teen into his workshop to stop his dead body staining the carpet.
In the recording, glass can be heard breaking, movement, then two gunshots as Nick Brady, 17, groans, 'Oh.' To this, Smith responds: 'You're dead,' the Star Tribune reports.
Then the rustling of a tarpaulin can be heard and a dragging sound as Smith, breathing heavily, moves the teen into his workshop to stop his dead body staining the carpet.
Moments later, jurors heard the sound of a gun reloading and deep breaths.
Then a female voice mumbles 'Nick.' It's 18-year-old Haile Kifer - Brady's cousin.
Again, gunshots ring out and then Kifer falls down the stairs.
Smith says 'Oh, sorry about that' and a terrified Kifer screams 'oh my god!'
The old man then says 'you're dying,' before shooting her again and calling her 'b****' twice.
More dragging sound is heard and then a final crack of a gun, which is where prosecutors turned off the sinister recording.
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The killings rocked the small central Minnesota city of about 8,000 and stirred debate about how far people can go in defending their homes.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2610531/Court-hears-audio-recording-homeowner-Byron-Smith-shooting-dead-two-teens-broke-basement.html#ixzz2zfEd5XiW
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47 (94%) |
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| self defense | |
0 (0%) |
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3 (6%) |
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DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts).
Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Hell, I've seen online commenters advocate shooting a kid for stealing a candy bar!
kcr
(15,326 posts)Many in the online community will support murder. It's that simple. Human life other than their own isn't worth a damn. Furthering an agenda is the only thing that matters. Anything else is collateral damage as far as they're concerned.
progressivebydesign
(19,458 posts)especially if the teens were of another race, which i'm don't know in this story. But that stuff is the viagra for those angry old white guys.
XRubicon
(2,213 posts)
PeteSelman
(1,508 posts)I don't think this guy was in any danger when he finished them off but I think you have the right to kill intruders in your home. I was always told that you were better off killing the intruder because the criminal might sue you if you just wound him. It's a tough call here but I can't see murder charges. They shouldn't have been in his house.
Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)A few minutes later, Kifer walked down the stairs and Smith shot her, Wartner said. He tried another shot, but his rifle jammed, Wartner said, and Smith told police he believed Kifer laughed at him.
'He was angry,' Wartner said. He said that Smith then pulled out his revolver and he shot her twice in the head, once in the left eye and once behind the left ear.
Smith dragged Kifer's body into the workshop and laid it on top of Brady's, Wartner said. Smith told investigators he thought he heard Kifer gasping, so he placed his revolver under her chin and fired what he told police was a 'good clean finishing shot to the head,' the assistant prosecutor said.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2610531/Court-hears-audio-recording-homeowner-Byron-Smith-shooting-dead-two-teens-broke-basement.html#ixzz2zfQBxD8d
moriah
(8,311 posts)That's a murder.
lunasun
(21,646 posts)
once he shot them he should have called police not continued an execution
PeteSelman
(1,508 posts)Not only is this dude a murderer, he's a psychopath. He needs to be killed in turn.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)This man butchered two teens who, though they shouldn't have been in his house, seemed to pose so little a threat to him that he managed to execute them.
He should have called the damn cops. Instead he made himself the executioner.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)He thought they were armed.
What I cannot understand is why the girl went down the stairs after hearing gunshots. She might be alive had she run from the house. If she wondered about her cousin, she could have called out to him from the top of the steps and around the corner.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)I don't think it was exactly her choice.
And apparently, the poor bastard was so terrified, so ripped with fear, that he dragged their bodies off his carpet to keep it from getting stained. And that 18 year old girl posed so much a threat lying on the floor bleeding out that he HAD to stick a gun under her chin and execute her.
He should've run, gotten the fuck out of his house, and called the cops. Or defended himself, and whatever comes during the time he legitimately felt threatened, then call the cops. Instead, he fucking executed them.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)Read my post down thread.
Edit to add:
Eleven minutes passed after the first teen was shot until the second teen was shot. She should have run away.
Smith should not have shot those teens a second time. The only way he could have fled is if he had a walkout basement which is possible.
mn9driver
(4,429 posts)Pictures of the house were in the paper right after it happened.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)One of the news stories also mention a 'picture window' in the basement.
This must be rocking Little Falls. Smith's parents were long time residents but he only moved there after he retired. He was in LEO with the state department. He likely knew the self-defense law but went a little nuts because of the previous burglaries.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)Two cases of cold-blooded murder. If he's 'nuts', he's no more 'nuts' than every other nut with a gun who dreams of bring able to kill other human beings to 'defend' themselves. And the facts on the ground show it was a premeditated trap, not some spur of the moment 'fear' of being burglarized.
Is it nuts? Sure. But not in the sense of being cookoo for cocopuffs. In the sense that all of the macho vigilantee wannabee gun-toters are nuts.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)all gun owners and/or all CCW permiter holders as being just like Smith.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)who fantasize about killing other humans to 'defend' themselves or their property.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)My guns are locked up in my basement and I sleep upstairs.
progressivebydesign
(19,458 posts)
meanit
(455 posts)This sick fuck disabled two teens with gunfire, taunted them and then gruesomely executed them. He also filmed the entire act.
This guy is a cold blooded murderer, worse then any petty criminal could be.
tblue37
(65,538 posts)PeteSelman
(1,508 posts)I foolishly hadn't read all the details.
This dude is a stone psycho.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)Your post sickens me.
Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)The guy executed these two for a garden variety breaking and entering. He fucking put an extra bullet into each of his two unarmed victims to ensure they were dead.
Look, if he'd fired one shot and killed the kid, then I'd say he was on the bubble with this. Lucky shot. But that's not what happened here.
This is not a guy protecting his home.
This was a guy who lay in wait and slaughtered two kids because he was pissed off at them.
chrisa
(4,524 posts)progressivebydesign
(19,458 posts)There is a standard of threat, and he did not meet that. He murdered the girl.. he did not need to. He could have said "stay right there" But the asshole realized that she probably witnessed him murdering her cousin. And didn't realize at the time that he was going to regret that audio.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)
BuelahWitch
(9,083 posts)"Court documents from another case show Brady had burglarized Smith's property at least twice in the months before he was killed." So it wasn't an isolated incident.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2610531/Court-hears-audio-recording-homeowner-Byron-Smith-shooting-dead-two-teens-broke-basement.html#ixzz2zfRRqmCq
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Logical
(22,457 posts)JI7
(89,288 posts)they clearly were no threat and he had them down. they were not even going to be able to get away . but he still shoots to kill them.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)And, in this circumstance, an illegal one. Which makes it murder.
herding cats
(19,569 posts)That's what he said after his third shot to her head. These three shots came after he shot her with his .223 rifle, after which he claims she "laughed" at him when the gun jammed when he went to shoot her the second time. He then proceeded to pull out his .22 and shoot her once in the eye and once behind the ear, then he placed the "good, clean finishing shot" under her chin into her brain making sure she "gave out the death twitch." Because she was so threatening to him that he was able to stand up close to her and shoot her three times in her head with extreme precision. He knew her. He knew who she was and who her father was. He knew who he had just killed in cold blood was a neighbor girl. His testimony makes those points. He even uses it as an excuse at one point as to why he didn't call the police. Because he was waiting for her father to come after him. Instead he waited until later the next day when he had a neighbor call for him. He also used the excuse of not wanting to ruin other peoples Thanksgiving at another time, so take what you will from his words.
That's not self defense. What they did was a crime. What he did was a worse crime. He sought vengeance, and now the legal system is seeking justice.
They all took their chances and they all lost. The two who broke into his house lost the most. There's no coming back from death. No rehabilitation, no jail, probation or community service to pay their penance. No second chance at becoming a better person than a thief. They get no chance to stand in court and defend themselves for their actions before a jury of their peers. They can't, because they're dead. They're dead because he wanted to kill them to extract his vengeance for the wrongs they'd done to him. That's not justice.
BuelahWitch
(9,083 posts)And he certainly went above and beyond defending himself. Likely there is some dementia at play here too. But he is an old man, who was repeatedly terrorized by these kids, at least the boy. People who terrorize old people for kicks are scum.
If their parents had taken care of it when the boy was in court previously he might be alive now.
ForgoTheConsequence
(4,869 posts)...
herding cats
(19,569 posts)Which leads me to believe they don't apply here. Nor are they claiming terrorism. Terrorism is a weighty word in the legal world, as I'm sure you know. The defense claims there was evidence the male broke into his home before and the defendant was so scared he took matters into his own hands. None of this explains why he chose not to call the police, or involve them until long after the fact. He planned their demise and then carried it out, is what the evidence shows. I'm allowing it as a fact that the male was involved in previous break-ins, even though I don't know it for sure, since he never had a trial and subsequent chance to defend himself.
What he (the defendant) did was still wrong. You cannot lay in wait planning to, and then act on your plans, to take other people's lives. He was not their judge, jury and executioner, simply because he was their alleged theft victim. Yet that's the roll he appears to have taken on himself. That isn't how our judicial system is designed to work. He's the one who is going to have to answer for his heinous actions in court. At least he has the luxury of having a trial to defend himself.
tblue37
(65,538 posts)Last edited Wed Apr 23, 2014, 02:12 AM - Edit history (1)
August; I teach college, and my mind functions just fine. Dementia past 80, much more likely, but 64 is not when dementia typically sets in.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)Certainly the title "asshole" is not worthy of a death sentence. Especially when we are talking about young potentially misguided people.
Conversely, as evidenced by his cold-blooded demeanor, maybe the old man was also a well known asshole in the community and breaking into his house or scaring him was the product of someone who thought he deserved it.
I don't know. There's a lot of different scenarios here. But the one thing we know for certain is that he was recorded sadistically executed two people and that, precluding some truly exceptional circumstance, is a serious crime of inhumanity.
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)called on him because of it. Some people were worried one day he'd accidentally shoot someone - but the cops said nothing they could do because he was outside the city limits.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)MINE!
progressivebydesign
(19,458 posts)
alp227
(32,075 posts)And sheesh...a law-abiding gun owner this guy is? SMH at gun culture.
1000words
(7,051 posts)at some point, an instance of a man defending himself and his property, gave way to malicious intent.
BuelahWitch
(9,083 posts)If there are documents from another case that show he burglarized the home before, why did they allow him out to do it again?
"After their deaths, authorities said a car linked to Brady and Kifer contained prescription drugs that had been stolen from another house, apparently the day before they were killed. Court documents from another case show Brady had burglarized Smith's property at least twice in the months before he was killed."
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/prosecutor-minn-homeowner-lay-in-wait-for-teen-burglars/
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)that in Kansas, burglary, even repeat offenses, will only get you probation as long as you are not carrying a weapon.
The state prisons are already too full to keep all the burglars locked up.
That may be true in other states too, but that guy was pushing some kind of "sentencing reform" from a Republican Governor, so I don't know if that is still the case.
tblue37
(65,538 posts)hfojvt
(37,573 posts)and he said something odd.
I cannot recall the exact wording, but it was something like - the legislature had made drug offenses less severe, but the police and county DAs hated the new leniency. So they basically went around it by charging drug users with the more severe crime of dealing.
I thought that was strange. Like he admitted that police and county attorneys were basically ignoring a law they didn't like - or BREAKING the law.
herding cats
(19,569 posts)He was on a "stakeout" of his own waiting for someone to break into his home again so he could kill them. Then he proceeded to do so and made the choice not to notify the police of his actions. Later the following day he says he asked a neighbor to call the police.
How is that not murder? He had ample time to call the police, he could have even done so rather than shoot them. Instead he chose to kill them because he was mad and wanted vengeance.
High_Voltage
(11 posts)... but everything up to that is just the result of breaking into people's homes.
Ohio Joe
(21,776 posts)"Smith dragged Kifer's body into the workshop and laid it on top of Brady's, Wartner said. Smith told investigators he thought he heard Kifer gasping, so he placed his revolver under her chin and fired what he told police was a "good clean finishing shot to the head," the assistant prosecutor said."
And we have people here defending this kind of insanity... WTF?
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)See I think he was wrong in this.
Just as wrong as people who drown their kids in the tub. Yet time and again people will make excuses for such actions.
I don't blame guns because they are not responsible for what people do with them. I don't blame people who want the freedom to own a gun because they are a collective group weren't the ones who did this (anymore than all muslims are to blame for 9/11 and the kidnapping of 200 girls recently).
Some people just suck all by themselves and have issues that making a bunch of new laws will never address.
If I owned a gun and someone broke it I wouldn't hesitate to shoot them. I have a young daughter and her safety would come over some crack addict looking to steal something for their next hit - and if the are willing to break into my home I don't want to wait for them to detail out whether or not they plan to harm anyone there. But I wouldn't go off on a shooting frenzy either on them. Maybe some people don't have a desire to defend themselves or the ones they love and want to wait on the cops to show up and such but because someone else does doesn't mean they are a 'gun nut'. In this case the guy sounds like he would have done the same thing no matter the weapon - so let's just blame him.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)who doesn't own a gun . . . I would definitely hesitate to shoot someone. Unquestionably so. Anyone not hesitant to shoot someone scares the living fuck out of me.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)From being a deputy to living where I do right now - I wouldn't think twice about it.
I don't see the avg person breaking into my home as just some average person looking for a loaf of bread to feed themselves. I personally know criminals who break into homes and steal things. I hang out with them at times on my porch because, well, we grew up together and are neighbors. They really don't give a crap about most people.
I saw people night after night - killers, drug addicts, rapists - who didn't care about the person they were doing their crime to. If someone shooting someone else when they break into their home scares you then the people doing the breaking in should scare you even more. My friend was robbed, shot in the head, in his own home which was then burnt down. All because the people breaking in just wanted to steal some things for cash and he saw them.
So you bet if I saw them I wouldn't feel a bit of hesitation because at that point I am not just a victim but a witness.
And it has nothing to do with guns. I don't own one. This whole conversation really has nothing to do with guns but with how and when people would defend themselves. Guns just even the odds, especially for the elderly and those in poor health.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)And that sir, is the difference between you and I.
progressivebydesign
(19,458 posts)If they are armed, you shoot first.. then hold them at gunpoint while you call for medical and police help. You don't shoot one, then finish him off.. then kill his cousin for just wondering where he is, 11 minutes later. Then drag the bodies to a shed, execute the poor girl who was obviously dying a horrible death all that time... THEN tell your neighbors to call the police. that is the sign of someone that is not defending his property.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)including me, agrees with you.
meanit
(455 posts)He obviously savored it.
Anybody who thinks anything else is a sick fuck.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)JI7
(89,288 posts)i say murder based on his own words in the recording.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Anyone defending this disgusting execution should be ashamed of themselves.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)But sometimes, just...Jesus!
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)Jenoch
(7,720 posts)They stole some of his guns and other property. They had broken into many homes in the area.
If the homeowner had shot them just once, called 911 immediately, and rendered aid, he would not now be on trial for first degree murder. Even if they died, he would not have been charged with a crime.
From the information I have learned about this case (I know people in that town) I believe he should be convicted and sentenced to life without parole.
There is some misplaced sympathy, but the admitted coup de grâce tells me he is guilty.
Takket
(21,702 posts)if it were my home I'd fire until I saw whoever broke in go down. but there has to be some point where, if you haven't fatally shot someone, it is at least obvious they are not going to get back up to resist you. the part about blowing the girls head off because he thought she drew a breath is damning
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)10 to 15 years seems about the right sentence.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)Thankfully, he provided the evidence that will put him away. He possibly could have gotten away with his murders if he simply lied about what happened, like Zimmerman. But when you tape yourself going in for the execution after you've obviously disabled your victim, there's no 'second degree' or 'manslaughter' involved.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)It specifically rules out situations like this one.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)don't think you're home, then hiding out in the basement with water and energy bars sure sounds like prior planning and intent to me.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Does anyone know whether the jury will be afforded a range of choices?
hadrons
(4,170 posts)I'm sure he was angry and feeling violated at the previous break-ins particularly since it appears to be the same kids who did it multiple times. And I don't necessarily blame him for being armed or ready to shoot because he doesn't know if they're become violent this time around ... however, the callous indifference he showed after the initial shooting isn't defensible.
Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)
Post removed
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts) Mainly what not, though what with is a consideration.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)
xfundy
(5,105 posts)Cuz I have a feeling you won't last long here. You come across as an asshole, a vicious, unfeeling one at that.
Orrex
(63,268 posts)
deathrind
(1,786 posts)Should spend the rest of his life in jail.
"Smith dragged Kifer's body into the workshop and laid it on top of Brady's, Wartner said. Smith told investigators he thought he heard Kifer gasping, so he placed his revolver under her chin and fired what he told police was a 'good clean finishing shot to the head,' the assistant prosecutor said."
At this point he was in absolutely no danger. Both intruders were already shot and dying, yet he felt he needed to add a "good clean finishing shot to the head"...
Life, no chance for parole. Anything less would be an injustice.
BKH70041
(961 posts)
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)I've never understood how it's allowed here as a legitimate source. There are certainly other legitimate stories elsewhere about this case.
spin
(17,493 posts)to come to you. Of course, if possible you should contact the police and stay on the line with them.
For example assume that you are in your bedroom behind a locked door and you hear definite sounds that indicate that intruders have entered. Assume further that you do not have other family members to be concerned about.
Playing Wyatt Earp and clearing your home could give the intruders the advantage as they may hear you coming and ambush you.
If the intruders break down your bedroom door and enter, you should have enough time to be absolutely certain that they have no right to be in your house. I believe that in most states you have the right to use lethal force to defend yourself against a home invader.
Once they are no longer a threat, your right to use deadly force has ended. If you successfully stop their attack, you have no right to execute them afterward.
It's not a bad idea to have a cell phone in your bedroom. In passing a shotgun is an excellent weapon in such a situation.
meanit
(455 posts)attempts here to defend this asshole murderer are absolutely revolting.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)to wait. It is far safer than seeking out confrontation, and falls in line with the good advice to have a safe room. But once the home invaders are down and disabled, the threat has ended. It appears the shooter went too far, and he should pay a big price by going to prison for murder.
mn9driver
(4,429 posts)He clearly took his time and mocked them while they lay helpless before finishing them off. He was not in fear or defending anything at that point. He executed them. All the prosecution has to do is replay this tape as their closing argument and he is gone for life.
CANDO
(2,068 posts)All it takes is a juror with an agenda.
CincyDem
(6,419 posts)Just shows there's truth in the old research adage...
Ask 100 people which crayon they should use to draw a green line and 5% will answer "the blue one". Doh.
BuelahWitch
(9,083 posts)Response to BuelahWitch (Reply #59)
darkangel218 This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to BuelahWitch (Reply #59)
darkangel218 This message was self-deleted by its author.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Or what about his statement of "good clean finish shot"???
WTF?
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)'self-defense'. Certainly doing his or her best to 'defend' the shooter.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)1st degree isn't there in this case. 2-5 minutes of prior planning and intent is not enough to meet the demands of 1st degree murder.
Response to stevenleser (Reply #150)
darkangel218 This message was self-deleted by its author.
linuxman
(2,337 posts)Once the threat is down and you shoot again, all bets are off. There is a pretty definite line between self defense and murder. You shoot to stop the threat, not to kill the person.
This man is either insane, or incredibly dumb. I can't fathom taking pleasure in killing another person, but this guy seemed to be acting out some sick fantasy where he enjoyed it enough to put a gun directly under a person's chin (who by this account was down for the count already) and pull the trigger.
I have zero issues with everything he did up until the home invaders hit the floor. Everything that happened after that was murder, plain and simple.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)Dragging wounded people into a workshop and finishing them off is cold - blooded murder.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)meanit
(455 posts)to defend the almighty gun, no matter what.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)I'm missing where in the self-defense statues a homeowner is allowed to carry out executions
flvegan
(64,425 posts)I know, it's Fox. Deal with it.
This seems to be a story about two youngsters, medication theft and monetary gain. I'm a Floridian, and I know my rights as a gun owner (not that this is Florida, but I think it has merit). If someone breaks into my house, and I fear for my life, I will pull the trigger. I will aim for center mass. If I drop the crim, and the threat ends, I will not end that person's life for some sick, egotistical, hateful reason. When the threat ends, I would render aid. I wouldn't haul out a tarp to keep the blood from ruining my carpet. No verbal dialogue about someone being as good as dead. Once the threat is over, it's over. That's it, that's all.
I don't need that sort of shit hanging on my head and soul.
If this is truly what happened, and I don't know as I wasn't there, then the shooter is the biggest fucking moron in the world and I hope he rots in prison until they haul his bodybag out on a truck.
Response to flvegan (Reply #61)
Aerows This message was self-deleted by its author.
tblue37
(65,538 posts)what he'd done, how he had carried out each step, and why.
There is little doubt about the details.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)that is only enough to stop an attack. Castle doctrine allows lethal force when necessary when your home has been invaded. Anything he did following the use of force to render the intruders unable to attack is not legitimate self-defense. One can reasonably "finish off" an intruder ONLY if they are still presenting a danger. For example, say your home is invaded, and you shoot the invader in an arm or other place that doesn't render them unable to attack you, they come after you, so you shoot them again this time killing them.
There has to be a reasonable fear of harm either to yourself or to someone else in the house. Someone invading one's home by itself presents a reasonable fear of harm, but one can only use force to stop an attack or other felony such as theft, vandalism, etc.
Prosecutors are claiming that because he lay in wait for the intruders he didn't have a reasonable fear of harm or the intruders conducting another felony in his home. I think that's ridiculous. If one has reason to believe that their home is going to be invaded (and he did as it had happened before apparently more than once, and obviously it DID happen again), lying in wait in one's own home to protect yourself, anyone else in the home and from other felonies occurring by intruders into your home is absolutely reasonable... if you have good reason to suspect your home is going to be invaded, it is more than reasonable to lie in wait in order to attempt to prevent harm to yourself, someone else in the home or intruders conducting other felonies in your home.
What makes this guy a murderer is not what he did before the invasion of his home but what he did after he subdued the invaders. He had every right to be angry, lie in wait, and shoot the intruders, but ONLY to the point where they were subdued. Once subdued he also has the obligation to contact law enforcement as soon as possible so the intruders can be arrested and medical aid rendered.
This really is a case of premeditation to murder not because he lay in wait - which he had every right to do - but because premeditation does not require a lot of time, but can be as little as a few seconds. The amount of time in which it becomes premeditation is what a reasonable person would believe was enough time to realize that further force against the intruders was not justifiable. Clearly, what he said to police and what was recorded it was not justifiable for him to have continued to use force against the intruders after they were subdued, and clearly show that later use of force was because of anger, not fear.
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)don't break into someone's home.
This guy, from the little I've read just now, crossed a line of some type, but he was in his home, and they had broken in. I'd assume them armed too, and act accordingly.
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)Again, the lesson is - don't break into people's homes and you won't get shot breaking into people's homes.
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)little silly.
Yeah breaking into a house can cause your life to be lost.
But so can accidentally opening an unlocked door that you assume is your house (but actually isn't). So can sticking up to a bully. Lots of things can lead to dying.
The reason the homeowner has a right to shoot is because someone who breaks into a house could be a threat and the homeowner usually has no safe retreat option at all - trying to pass any kind of judgment on the intruders lives is wrong. People don't deserve to die because of theft - neither legally nor morally. Sent to jail? Yep. Get the piss beat out of them? Yep (well, morally, but probably not legal) . Shot, disabled, and executed? Nope.
Anything you say inadvertently helps to make the "shot, disabled, and executed" a justifiable action which it is not.
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)as a mortal threat. And in a me or him situation, which I'm going to assume it is if he's breaking into my home, I'm going to do everything I can to make sure it's him, and not me. The survival of the intruder is going to be at the bottom of my list of concerns.
Feral Child
(2,086 posts)2 crimes were committed, burglary and murder. The burglars died. The murderer will spend the rest of his life in prison.
You've certainly impressed us with how dangerous a fellow you are. I would suggest, if you ever get the chance to live out your fantasy, that you not narrate the event on tape.
SQUEE
(1,315 posts)The time has come to at the very least, make sure police and EMS are on the way. For me I would most likely start first aid on them.
I am not wired to flip the internal switch from protector of my loved ones, or my home, to deranged assasin...
Seriously I can not in any way find any form of sympathy for this guy, I have rendered aid on insurgents after we have both expended time terror and ammo trying to kill each other, as have many of my fellow soldiers, I believe a human in agony, no matter who or what he has done, triggers that response in a normal person.
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)beat the living hell out of an intruder. But when they're no longer a threat, you do not have the right to continue to harm them. Whether this guy walks or not he's had (and will have) a lot of sleepless nights. I bet he really regrets what he did now, if nothing else other than fear that he might be spending the rest of his days in the slammer...
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)what about this?
nobody seems to like what you're saying. or almost nobody.
tkmorris
(11,138 posts)The fact that they broke in is what excuses the first shot (for each). EVERYTHING after that is the work of a sick human being.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Which is no more nor no less a relevant lesson than "if you don't want to die in a car accident, don't get into a car"
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)killing the kids he raped and tortured them for days?
Don't want to be raped and tortured? Don't break into homes.
Stupid logic by the person you are responding to.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)It is not illegal to get into a car.
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)1. I believe one has the right to shoot, stab, club, or beat the piss out of an intruder. If someone is in your house, most likely they are up to no good (theft) and you can't be sure they won't use violence to get what they are after.
2. But once they are knocked out or disabled, you can't keep shooting. Even if it is your home. This sets big time bad precedent. The death penalty is bad enough in all cases (even murder), but now you're allowing citizens to be the judge, jury, and executioner? WTF?
3. I find the defendant's behavior before the shooting, while legal - quite sick. This guy went to elaborate lengths to make sure he shot the kids. This was NOT the case of a guy who got sick of too many break ins and bought a gun and just happened to shoot a repeat intruder. This is a guy who waited and went to elaborate planning to make sure he was going shoot the intruders. Moved his car. Waited with two guns. In a not so great to be spot. His basement reading a book? For hours on end?
Seems with all the time and effort he put into this plan he could have improvised some kind of trap so the kids would get stuck in the basement then he calls the cops. Keep the gun in case the kids break out. But no, he didn't want to just stop the burglaries, he wanted to kill the burglars no matter what.
4. I find those who defend this guy equally sick and it's disturbing so many are this country. They are one of two types (possible to be both). They also want all thieves to die no matter what. Of course, the cretins who espouse this view never put any thought into the number of "assumed, but not actually a thief" people will get killed in their holy war on all thieves. The other type are gun nuts who will defend a shoot - any shoot as long as it can in any stretch of logic (to near breaking it) can be considered self defense. It all goes to the "Obama's gunna take my guns!" so to them, this is about keeping their guns. No matter what. No matter how many people die because of that view. It's also about winning/scoring political points / imagined victories.
Sick. There are way too many sociopaths in the world.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)house. Then I'm calling the cops to report a crime. Then I'll get better locks/security system. Then I'll call my insurance company. What I will not do is consider shooting someone a first reasonable option. I get so tired of the "enter my home and I'll put a bullet in you" mentality.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)I'd get my dogs out of the house first, but otherwise what you said.
Oh, and I'd make sure the dogs were staying with my neighbours when the cops were around too. Seems like pets get shot more often by cops than intruders, simply for barking at the police.
Warpy
(111,449 posts)and he appointed himself police, judge, jury and executioner.
This is murder.
joshcryer
(62,287 posts)He dragged the girl to the other body and then executed her. That's intent. One might argue that the boy was just heat of the moment, overthinking, 2nd degree, didn't think murder. But the girl, he said he killed her to stop her suffering or whatever. That's willful murder with intent.
I understand why the prosecutors went with 2nd degree, it's open and shut, but they should've still charged him with 1st degree (especially if that's a state where you can have stacked charges, I know some states don't).
Brown Coat
(40 posts)Seems like he got caught up in the situation. You've been victimized, probably very scared, adrenaline is in overdrive. Then you shoot and instead of coming out of your fight response you get really pissed and the two who broke in are right there and you escalate things to a level they shouldn't be. That's just how I see it.
meanit
(455 posts)Last edited Wed Apr 23, 2014, 10:38 AM - Edit history (1)
After shooting and then executing the 17 year old, the 18 year old girl gets shot with a .223 rifle, then a .22 at nearly point blank range in the eye, behind the ear and then a final, planned kill shot under her chin. Oh, and all this after he had dragged both bodies into his workshop away from the original encounter.
That was "failing to come out of fight mode"? Adrenaline? Worried for his safety?
That is ludicrous. This man is a murdering animal.
B Calm
(28,762 posts)cold blood murder.
MineralMan
(146,351 posts)It doesn't look good for this guy, but there's a jury already impaneled and the trial has begun.
CBGLuthier
(12,723 posts)He had already shot and absolutely incapacitated the kid. Then he reloaded and shot him a few times more. He will probably die in prison unless our charming fucking governor pardons him before the door hits her ass.
The point is, once you have incapacitated them shooting them again is not allowed. Unless you are a US Marshal in a courtroom of course. Then you can fire a couple more as they lay on the ground.
meanit
(455 posts)the situation is usually under your control and shooting is not necessary.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)the sights of my gun, I need to you leave my house immediately. I don't want to shoot you, but if you advance any closer you'll leave me with no choice and I will. I need you to turn around and run, not walk, away from my home and never come back."? Once they leave the cops are called and the homeowner has a good description and they pick the guy up, justice is served. It seems more sane to me than living a shoot-em-up fantasy.
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)Where the guy shot 2 men who were inspecting their new property.
Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)over material goods. I'm all for armed self defense to protect lives. Protecting property with deadly force is another matter.
Getting burglarized over and over has to suck, the kids had stolen prescription meds in their car, they may have been junkies. Still no reason to kill them the way they were shot down.
riverwalker
(8,694 posts)I think he was setting a trap, trying to appear unoccupied. The kids thought the house was empty, IMHO he was in no danger.
Nick Brady 17
Haile Kifer 18
SevenSixtyTwo
(255 posts)And then proceeded to deem himself judge, jury and executioner. He should serve time.
However, it's up to the burglar to decide if his or her life is worth breaking into someone's home and stealing material possessions, not the home owner.
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)While he had every right to shoot them for breaking into his house, he lost any claim for self defense when he shot them while they were on the ground once they were incapable of harming him.
chrisa
(4,524 posts)This guy is dangerously psychotic - for example, who laughs after getting shot? Only one of the shots was fired when the first burglar was climbing through the window. The fact that he calmly described his kills shows a lot about his mental state.
progressivebydesign
(19,458 posts)Even if he was in danger... he should have called 911 after the first shot, and held the injured at gunpoint until help arrived. But killing the girl??? And finishing them off? Fuck the "stand your ground" bullshit. This was murder. Period.
That's not defending your home. that is murder. Had someone broke into his house and threatened him with a weapon, and even if he fired once to disable them... I could understand that. this was not that. He murdered those kids.
hamsterjill
(15,224 posts)While it is very obvious that this homeowner went WAY too far, I do believe that Americans have the right to defend their homes.
But from what I read here about this homeowner, he sounds like some sicko who enjoyed killing two people. I can imagine someone who had been robbed once, and then the same people were breaking in again, being hyper sensitive and scared. But this doesn't appear to be the case here. The homeowner's actions don't seem to be out of fear or concern. He seems very controlled.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)Bragi
(7,650 posts)America has a (bad) plan for addicts (jails) but seems to have no public security plan for dealing with growing numbers of armed, elderly sociopaths?
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)Yes we should have far better treatment options but for some addicts like my brother he is too far gone to be fixed by a rehab center, even a well run one.
He needs to really hit rock bottom, and jail/prison may have to be part of that equation if he is ever going to get better.
Bragi
(7,650 posts)You're in a tough situation, and so is he. My best wishes go out to you both.
On your point, my understanding is that jail has about the worst record in terms of helping people with addictions reach good outcomes.
Have you checked out what research shows on this? I haven't done so recently, but my recall is that prison produces generally very bad results for addicts.
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)I'm not sure your logic is totally sound. Jail/prison may have typically bad outcomes for addicts but that may be because those going to jail/prison are more often the really far gone ones and typically come from lower socioeconomic status. The rehab population probably has a higher proportion of people who aren't as hooked.
As for my brother, I've written him off long ago. I do not have contact with him, just hear stuff from my mother.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Okay, our mental healthcare system had serious problems prior to the Reagan era, but Reagan's presidency saw the desintitutionalizing of countless patients who were ill-prepared for it (and a subsequent spike in crime...quelle surprise!). Warehousing our mentally ill on the streets and gutting programs has benefited no one.
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)not thankful I've had to live through all the damage he has done.
Bragi
(7,650 posts)I can't foresee how a court will decide, but it's clearly murder.
What interests me most about the perpetrator is not how he will be sentenced, it is his appatent sociopathic incuriosity about the lives he chose to end, let alone the potentially catastrophic effects his actions would have on other people, especially the victim's families.
What I most would like to know from this is if the killer here is actual evidence of Fox News Derangement Syndrome, which is a particular psychotic problem, I gather, for some angry, white elderly men. They become unable to feel/show empathy/compassion at an individual or societal level.
We know the adverse effects this syndrome has on our political and social wellbeing, but is this case possibly evidence that people suffering from this condition may be dangerous to others? If so, what, if anything, should be done in response to any related public security risk?
See http://www.salon.com/2014/02/27/i_lost_my_dad_to_fox_news_how_a_generation_was_captured,_by_thrashing_hysteria/
randys1
(16,286 posts)And once we get rid of ALL of them, we will be a FAR FAR FAR Better society for it.
Maybe make exceptions for hunters living in certain areas only...
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)a hobby or something they collect. I wasn't aware the constitution was written for hobbyists.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)besides posting your thoughts on the subject on an internet message board?
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)Sounds like this old dude knows there were people breaking into his basement. Rather than lie in wait in the basement with a gun, he can go about his business otherwise - watch TV or read in his bedroom or something.
Board up the windows in the basement. Lock any other doors if there multiple doors. Rig the door they are entering the basement in to automatically lock and shut. As soon as the first intruder gets stuck in the basement, call 911.
Problem most likely solved - and far cheaper than a defense attorney and far less hassle than a trial. He could have even kept his guns in case the kid broke the door down and went after him.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)The legal and ethical right to use deadly force evaporates in the absence of legitimate threat of death or grave injury. This is a no-brainer.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)However, there is a lot of fail to go around in this tragic case. Obviously the teens themselves. Plus their parents... where was the supervision and instilling of values and respect? Also to the legal system... several prior convictions obviously didn't deter the teen's criminal behavior. They should have been in jail, not out committing additional crimes.
dilby
(2,273 posts)I hope this guy gets the death penalty for what he did. I am all for defending yourself I am totally against executing someone with double taps to the head once they are no longer a threat. If he is convicted and gets the death penalty this story will serve to purposes, if you are home owner there is nothing in your home worth losing your life over. And if you are a burglar there is nothing in someone's home worth losing your life over.
Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)
Bethany Rockafella
(952 posts)And visualizing what they went through.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)... where I couldn't get at him.
joeybee12
(56,177 posts)Guy like that would probably have shot someone else at some point...lots of ignorance and hate in his tiny little mind.
