Who are those pro-Russia rebels in Ukraine, anyway?

[Comrade Grumpy]

Here's an article from the New York Times (not RT) on the men "in the 12th Company...of the self-proclaimed People’s Militia of the Donetsk People’s Republic."

The whole article is worth the read. Reality isn't as black and white as the competing narratives we hear.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/04/world/europe/behind-the-masks-in-ukraine-many-faces-of-rebellion.html?hpw&rref=world

Behind the Masks in Ukraine, Many Faces of Rebellion
By C. J. CHIVERS and NOAH SNEIDERMAY 3, 2014

SLOVYANSK, Ukraine

<snip>

Yuri commands the 12th Company, part of the self-proclaimed People’s Militia of the Donetsk People’s Republic, a previously unknown and often masked rebel force that since early April has seized government buildings in eastern Ukraine and, until Saturday, held prisoner a team of European military observers it accused of being NATO spies. His is one of the faces behind the shadowy paramilitary takeover. But even with his mask off, much about his aims, motivations and connections remains murky, illustrating why this expanding conflict is still so complex.

Yuri, who appears to be in his mid-50s, is in many ways an ordinary eastern Ukrainian of his generation. A military veteran, he survived the Soviet collapse to own a small construction business in Druzhkovka, about 15 miles south of here. But his rebel stature has a particular root: He is also a former Soviet special forces commander who served in Afghanistan, a background that could make him both authentically local and a capable Kremlin proxy.

<snip>

The rebels of the 12th Company appear to be Ukrainians but, like many in the region, have deep ties to and affinity for Russia. They are veterans of the Soviet, Ukrainian or Russian Armies, and some have families on the other side of the border. Theirs is a tangled mix of identities and loyalties.

Further complicating the picture, while the fighters share a passionate distrust of Ukraine’s government and the Western powers that support it, they disagree among themselves about their ultimate goals. They argue about whether Ukraine should redistribute power via greater federalization or whether the region should be annexed by Russia, and they harbor different views about which side might claim Kiev, the capital, and even about where the border of a divided Ukraine might lie.

<snip>

Throughout the week, as Ukrainian soldiers sometimes pressed closer, he chuckled at the claims by officials in Kiev and the West that his operations had been guided by Russian military intelligence officers. There is no Russian master, he said. “We have no Muscovites here,” he said. “I have experience enough.”

---------------------------------------

I think the east is out of Kiev's control, one way or another. Either a weak federal system with an autonomous east, an independent state or statelet, or going back to the ample bosom of Mother Russia.

[Comrade Grumpy]

1. Shameless self-kick n/t

[malaise]

2. K & R n/t

[davidpdx]

3. They are flat out lying

Russia has been fanning the flames in Ukraine and many of the "armed militia" are Russian thugs. Putin is counting on chaos so he can have a pretext to invade the east.

[AverageJoe90]

4. And right-wing thugs at that! n/t

[Gravitycollapse]

5. You're committing the very sin this article is trying to counter.

That is, they are trying to show how both official narratives are inaccurate.

The rebel soldiers obviously show a propensity for Russia and Russian culture. They even admit to that in the article. But they seem to give a reasonable story on how they aren't simply the proxies of the Russian Federation.

[Igel]

6. Many aren't.

That's not at issue.

The level of support is at issue. The "evidence" is a opolchenets's mother's support for her son's "division."

However, the (former?) leader in Donetsk said many of his men were from Crimea. Which is or isn't Ukraine, depending who's doing the talking. One or two of the leaders there, captured, seem to have dual citizenship, but are mostly RF residents in the "off season." And that's part of the problem--a lot of people are dual nationality. So Ukr can say "a lot are Russians" and the Russians can say, "They're Ukrainians."

And in Odessa, at least, there is no shortage of people involved in the disturbance there with Russian-issued ID documents.

One thing not at issue: With the media, the guys in Donetsk, at least (and apparently elsewhere) are very much "if you're not with us, you're against us." The video from Donetsk is very clear. The statements are very clear. The eye witnesses are very clear. And when challenged, the treatment of the media is judged "democratic" and "lawful," one presumes according to standards that prevailed when these men were "formed" some 25 or more years ago. Most are in their 50s and really miss the certainty of how things were. The glory that went with being Russian. The perks. All the benefits, such as they were during perestroika and the zastoi.

[Comrade Grumpy]

7. The rebels "appear to be Ukrainians but, like many in the region, have deep ties to Russia."

The NYT reporters are on the ground there. Where are you?

[OilemFirchen]

8. ONE member of ONE group.

As of yesterday, 15 of the 31 who died in Odessa were Russian citizens and 5 from the Transnistria region.

No matter, anyway. The NYT article hardly acquits the separatists. Explaining why they're armed and deadly cranks isn't even revelatory, let alone sympathetic.

We have plenty of secessionists in the U.S. who need no introduction. They're fucking punks... end of story.