A post of the (complex) sequence of events yesterday in Kiev

[newthinking]

I posted this in another thread but thought it would be helpful as an OP in understanding. What happened yesterday may well be remembered as a serious turn of events unfortunately for everyone there.

Here is the account I placed in another thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014795749#post25

Here are the events as I have researched (nothing from RT, it is not necessary to even quote them with this story, it is everywhere on the net if you can translate Ukrainian or Russian:

There were two locations involved: A clash in the center of the city and the Union building/Tent City there

*Clash *appears* to have possibly been started by a group that was inside of the antimaidan side when a fight with chains and bats started.
*That escelated into a firefight as both sides are now bringing guns along with them "in case".
*The initial provocateurs (they appear possibly to be so) are rumored to have been from Transneistra (Ukraine or the country we don't know)
*They were arrested. But since that they have disappeared and not much else is being mentioned about them in Ukrainian press.
*The gunman on the roof (in the center) was taken down by police (probably in fear) and given over to maidan where they proceeded to torture him to death, first by cutting off his leg (I am not sure what else as I have not wanted to open the video of it)
*Several people were killed on both sides
*Afterwards, right sector members joined in with the people in the clash and a larger group was formed. They headed to the "tent city" of the anti-maidan.
*The tent city "occupiers" (men and women) many of which were not at the clash (which was mostly men, who would have guessed), fled on seeing the mob to the Union building. There are conflicting stories about the "barracades", but there we others in the building including children at that point. It appears no children died fortunately. But I cannot confirm that
*It was likely the Right Sector members of maidan that set the building on fire. And they did do so, there are videos of pretty much the who thing with lots of petrol bombs being thrown (some yes, even at the third floor, but fire travels anyway).
*Some infiltrated the building and started a fight inside, which slowed movement out of the immediate area of the initial fire.
*The likely reason so many were killed is they continued to throw gas (Petrol bombs) throughout, even after the fire was raging
*There were gunman firing at people trying to leave through windows. Yes there were! And some people trying to leave were beaten.
*They were yelling death threats further making those inside afraid to come out.
*Yes, it does appear that on one side of the building some other maidan were trying to help some flee.
I have yet to find any video where you can see a petrol bomb being thrown from the roof, though I would not be surprised if it did not happen, but clearly it was the petrol bombs from outside that started and fanned the fire (it is a puzzle as to why the press reports otherwise, likely because they run with stories with incorrect information.
*It does appear that at some point some shots were fired from the roof (five stories up). It was a pistol, and I have yet to confirm any deaths by gunfire in the maidan that were there.
*The people who made it to the roof (I believe) were eventually rescued. But they were not able to get them out until well after dark due to the threats to their lives.. Right Sector remained outside the building until well after dark (there is a video showing them singing songs and yelling "molodetz" (Perfect!) as the police take out the burned bodies.

So far there are reports of arrests. But given that the official government line is that the fire was started by "accident" it is doubtful that the people who did it will end up in jail (besides, little has changed and money can still get you out of jail there)

This was all sourced from videos and Ukrainian sources. Most from Odessa news sites. Twitter is very helpful as a lot of sleuthing happens there. Nothing from RT.

[dixiegrrrrl]

1. Very helpful...thank you. n/t

[Duckhunter935]

2. I watched the video and you are wrong

*The gunman on the roof (in the center) was taken down by police (probably in fear) and given over to maidan where they proceeded to torture him to death, first by cutting off his leg (I am not sure what else as I have not wanted to open the video of it)

His foot was severely injured, the police arrived and several officers protected him and applied first aid. The Protesters left and He was very much alive with several officers around him. At least one protester was yelling for him to not be killed.

Don't just go by the headline, watch the video
GRAPHIC, shows some blood
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4a9_1399121015&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Both sides acted like thugs and were shooting, throwing Molotov cocktails and rocks. The Pro Maiden also tried to help those trapped inside.

The Pro-Russian side also attacked the police station and the police released those in custody. Nothing like attacking the police to get what you want.

[newthinking]

4. Yes, I stand corrected. The police stopped them from completing the act

I think I have pretty clearly mentioned that I see all this as very complex. As I mentioned in another post, the pro-Kyiv viewpoint is prevalent and so there is no need to point out what is already reported. That may make it "seem" like I am looking to slant things.

I do see the viewpoint of ordinary Ukrainians not being represented, particularly in the east.

My understanding is also that the majority in the country are not supporting the current government and want it to change, though who they would prefer to be in place will obviously be different west to east.

Have you noticed that there have not been any national polling? I think an accurate polling (not tampered with) would be an eye opener for a lot of people.

[Duckhunter935]

6. thanks, please update your posts

they are inflammatory and wrong.

Kind of hard to poll when you have thugs from the right sector and thugs on the pro-Russian side that are armed with weapons, abducting and holding hostage reporters.

It is very complex, I agree

[newthinking]

9. If I update the posts with new facts you can't follow the threads

and I will be accused of changing my info. I generally don't do that for that reason.
I know people can view the history but they generally don't take the time

[Duckhunter935]

3. at 2.00

fire starts inside the building, a rock seems to fall short of the window at the same time. Odd no flash or damage on the exterior of the window. Many lobbing around the front entrance.

[newthinking]

5. You need to view all the videos for perspective. There are 4 sides of the building!

That is not the case. Though there are some that would like you to think so. There were also several members who entered the building.

Why even bother trying to make that case anyway. Does it make them any less guilty of a massacre if they threw more petrol on the flames?

By the way, you may not know this, but the buildings there are made of concrete. It is not easy to keep a fire burning from room to room.

[Duckhunter935]

7. Links to others?

I am sure you have watched them

[newthinking]

10. I am having trouble responding to all the requests. Go to the video forum they are all over the

place there.

Quite frankly, the one you found is not well distributed while the others are everywhere here. Are you really having so much trouble or more interested in posting a particular story?

[Fred Sanders]

11. That is a brief view of one side of the very large building, good for propaganda though.

Also clear is that the pro-Kiev militia went to Odessa under cover of being fans to a soccer match, then gathered for a protest themselves.....Kiev is not even in control of its one Bundy like militia, let alone the,police or army.......overthrowing a democratically elected government can be awkward.