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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsBill O'Reilly denies that white privilege exists in America
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O'Reilly denied that white privilege exists in America and cited his past experiences of growing up on Long Island and working at an ice cream shop as reasons for why he is not privileged. But O'Reilly's guest, as well as other viewers, all seemed to agree -- someone needs to fill O'Reilly in on the definition of white privilege.
Looks like O'Reilly agrees with some DUers.
Ye shall know them by the company they keep.
Of course if you go to Free Republic or Stormfront, I'm sure they also believe white privilege doesn't exist.
In fact, they probably believe it's the straight white male who is oppressed and virtually in chains.
ismnotwasm
(41,980 posts)The things that made you go hmm
Swede Atlanta
(3,596 posts)I am a white male in my mid 50's. I am well educated with a B.A. and a doctorate degree. I am also gay.
I see everyday how I benefit from the fact I am WHITE and to a lesser degree male. In my profession (IT) women are very much competitive and seen.
I cannot deny that my ethnicity is a plus up for me. Based on many studies it appears my gender is still also a plus up.
For me while I do not hide my sexual orientation, this has not affected my ability to be hired and retain good jobs and otherwise enjoy a fairly carefree life.
phil89
(1,043 posts)Anything objective or just a hunch?
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Because frankly, there are none.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Since scores of academic studies and more anecdotal responses seem not to suffice?
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)And herein lies the problem. In terms of academia, "white privilege" wasn't originally meant to be a *literal* thing, but rather something of philosophical reflection. The literalist interpretation now so popular amongst angsty (or troll-esque in some cases) Tumblr types is definitely a more recent development.
And furthermore, anecdotal & other actual evidence that exists of real-world discrimination, whether personal and/or institutional, does not = literal "privilege" of white people. This isn't rocket science, fella.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Last edited Fri May 16, 2014, 02:11 PM - Edit history (1)
(Literal privilege) but refuse to accept the terms of actual social scientists, then use your pseudo - informed definition to interpret what those social scientists might. {Editted to Correct "Meant"}
That's true commitment to a bogus argument ... fella.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Furthermore, I didn't invent said intrepretation(I mean, that should be obvious to anyone who knows anything about this). I am merely describing it. World of difference, there.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)But I am not the one inventing terms/definition; then using that invented term/definition to "interpret" what the social scientists have said in such a way to further your opinion on this matter ... No, I rely on the work of social scientists; then, use their work, including their conclusions, to inform my thoughts.
Link to a single social scientist that holds your interpretation. I'd love to see where this "literal white privilege versus philosophical white privilege" idea comes from ... though I can already guess.
I'll wait.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)I'd love to see where this "literal white privilege versus philosophical white privilege" idea comes from ... though I can already guess.
The thing is, is that "white privilege" was originally supposed to be a philosophical thing; a "look from someone else's perspective" type of deal. However, though, as I've pointed out before, in more recent terms, the term was re-defined by some more radical individuals; as these folks told it, "white privilege" was now a tangible thing. According to this definition, white people somehow possessed actual above-the-norm type privileges.....while the disadvantaged were the real "norm". Which might actually have made some sense in, say, pre-Mandela (pre-1994) South Africa, in which blacks were the actual majority group but had no power at all.....but not so much in the U.S., where white folks had never been anything other than the majority(and never mind the barriers of class, religion, etc.).
Of course, to be truthful, there are probably those out there who can explain the truth of the matter better than I can.....so perhaps it'd be best for me to leave it to them, if any choose to come forward.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)No link to these social scientists? I thought I knew the origins of the "literal versus philosophical white privilege" concept. Two questions though ... did you wipe and why didn't you flush?
Radical individuals?
But I guess ... in a way, you have a point, academicians challenging the decades old dominant thought to reflect their decades of study, is by definition "radical."
"... disadvantaged were the real 'norm'."? Wow ... Did you read and/or think about what you wrote before you hit the "post my reply" button? That just demonstrates how deeply you misunderstand what social scientists (and those that understand them) have actually been saying.
I completely agree ... these folks are called social scientists/academicians; but I doubt they agree with your interpretation of their works. So, you best hope they DON'T show up.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)uponit7771
(90,339 posts)... fact that it exist and is palliable
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)BTW ... Why won't Stephen Hawking accept or even answer my calls to debate my ideas on theoretical physics, specifically my concept of "alternative translated dark matter"? After all, I read a couple books on physics and divined the concept.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Your link to a single social scientist that holds your interpretation of white privilege. I'd love to see where this "literal white privilege versus philosophical white privilege" idea comes from ... though I can already guess.
uponit7771
(90,339 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)It may not be perfect, but it's at least a start.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)and, no ... it's not a start.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I don't mind sharing ... but I think we need to lay out plans to get more popcorn and drink.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)And other that acknowledge W/P, actually say; rather than what the deniers of W/P think they hear.
I suspect you will not see what you claim.
Kind of like the right saying that the left refer to PBO as "the one" ... or those who say they have heard Black people refer to white people as "honkey" or "whitey" (any time in the 21st century ... I think they hear their own words and think it's coming from PoC.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Nice ad hominem there.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)as those who will not see....
but it seems you are in good company with BillO!
Perhaps you and he could go to Atlanta together and order Chicken and Waffles!
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)On Thu May 15, 2014, 05:42 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
White privilege exists and those that deny it are as bad as climate change deniers....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4959070
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
"White privilege exists and those that deny it are as bad as climate change deniers"? Really?
Last I checked, ad hominems were against CS here on DU.....
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu May 15, 2014, 05:46 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: NOT an ad hominem attack, LEAVE IT!
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Oh good grief. Oh good grief. Oh good grief. - Charlie Brown now has tourettes syndrome, congratulations.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Alerter needs to get a grip
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: silly alert
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Ridiculous alert.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts)couch where we'll at least be a bit more comfortable?
badtoworse
(5,957 posts)Do you base you position on what other people think? Whatever merit the "white privilege" meme has should stand on its own.
William769
(55,147 posts)Blue Owl
(50,373 posts)n/t
Squinch
(50,949 posts)Whisp
(24,096 posts)They must be feeling proud about now. And Right, Dammit! lol
Shandris
(3,447 posts)By checking what every idiotic right-winger has to say and making sure we're opposite of that?
That may be among the most bone-headed things I've ever heard said in my entire life. Literally, literally identifying ourselves by what Republicans believe and say (and, even moreso, without comparing the reasons or nuance behind something).
, indeed.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)I challenge anyone who believes that to put on a hoodie, paint yourself other than white and go strolling around a gated community, or jogging near one.
Shandris
(3,447 posts)The posts were a bunch of people talking about birds of a feather, know them by their kind, and all kinds of other lame insinuations that to share a single belief -- no matter what it is -- with a rightwinger is to be one.
I don't care if some people don't believe privilege exists at all; people are allowed to be wrong. The problem is when you get to the point that sharing any singular belief with someone else makes you just like them.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)Me, probably nothing. Maybe if he had a hot cuppa coffee and spilled it on his GOP lap he'd yell: Hey, That's Hot! I might agree with that. Generally Republicans of this age are wrong about most everything.
Shandris
(3,447 posts)I never once said I agreed with O'Reilly -at all- now, did I?
I agree that Republicans are -generally- wrong on most things. That doesn't mean I -measure- myself by whether or not something I -may- think aligns with something 'they' may think. That's what a cult does.
Edit: Overly antagonistic title. Changed, and my apologies.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)But the fact remains that it tends to be right wing conservatives who deny white privilege and even feel it's the straight white male who faces real discrimination.
Pointing out that some DUers are in agreement with the likes of O'Reilly, Stormfront, and Free Republic when it comes to white privilege is something that has to be done.
Shandris
(3,447 posts)It's when one goes the extra step and begins to -equate- the two that I get nervous (and I'm not accusing anyone directly). It's just one of those fine-line things that you (generic) have to watch out for.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)Shandris
(3,447 posts)If you meant something else, have the courage to say it.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)all in the name of some insist is 'free speech' for fucks sake, like Skinner is The Government.
Shandris
(3,447 posts)Thankfully I don't know of any right offhand, although I'm sure there are a handful or more that would love to point to me. But like I often say...people are allowed to be wrong.
But really, I don't see too many people outright denying the academic concept existing. I made a lengthy post on that topic just last night. Granted, I don't read all of the threads that closely once they hit over 50+ replies or so, so its entirely possible I've overlooked them on accident. I certainly haven't seen anyone saying they didn't believe in privilege because they couldn't tan. See, reasoning can make a huge difference.
Someone who says WP is a misnomer because it is only a small part of an intersectionality, and someone who says it doesn't -exist- because they can't tan are two entirely different things...apparently except for on DU.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)They just want to burn the witches.
Shandris
(3,447 posts)...but I just can't help myself. If reason won't carry the day, then we as a people are doomed to return to the caves. But I do thank you for the kind words.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)BillO is a pile of garbage.
He has brainwashed some good people that I know and knew in my life, I hate him for that.
Of course there is white privilege unlike any other privilege known to human kind.
Number23
(24,544 posts)Some here enjoy deliberate blindness as if it were a fine cognac.
randys1
(16,286 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)you'll get past it ... you will eventually come to the point where you accept that some are NOT the good guy, on this topic.
On the bright side, you will only be tangentially affected.
randys1
(16,286 posts)i am both angered by the way white people act plus I am not the one who can understand it the way I know you and others can
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Those of you that understand far out number those that don't.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)Why?
Because it proves something?
Because people with SOME beliefs need to be stigmatized and ostracized and pilloried?
So are you trying to convince me that I have been wrong to support Democrats all these years? That I should leave this group and go hang out with other people who will be more in agreement with me?
Or just trying to convince the choir that they should shun some people?
Many people here are already convinced of this little truism - there are two kinds of people in this world, there are those who agree with me, and there are a$$holes.
I don't find such an attitude to be conducive to conviviality or progress either.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)the fact that you *feel* "stigmatized and ostracized and pilloried", only shows that you are listening to the voices in your head (and those that feel equally stigmatized and ostracized and pilloried), rather than to what anyone is actually saying.
I think the biggest obstacle to growth is our standing in/refusal to get out of, our own way.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)No offense, but you could really take some of your own advice once in a while.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)to cling to antiquated concepts; rather than accepting the work of the social scientists that are advancing the understanding of their field of study.
Here:
This will give you something to do, while you avoid posting anything that approaches academic support for you "literal versus philosophical white privilege" sophistry.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)In reference to this, btw:
the fact that you *feel* "stigmatized and ostracized and pilloried", only shows that you are listening to the voices in your head (and those that feel equally stigmatized and ostracized and pilloried), rather than to what anyone is actually saying.
Do you have any clue as to how ironic this is? Really?
This will give you something to do, while you avoid posting anything that approaches academic support for you "literal versus philosophical white privilege" sophistry.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Please explain it.
Can I expect the explanation before or after you post a link to a single social scientist that holds your interpretation. I'd love to see where this "literal white privilege versus philosophical white privilege" idea comes from.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Not that you seem to really care much, of course(as can be seen). And frankly, given your past interactions with myself & others, I have reason to doubt you would change your mind even with the most detailed refutation anyone could offer. Which is your right, of course.........but I have just as much of a right to criticize and point out inaccuracies, etc. when I see them. So it's a two way street.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)when you post a link to a single social scientist that holds your interpretation that the social scientists intended a "literal white privilege versus philosophical white privilege" distinction.
But when your criticisms and pointed out inaccuracies are based on antiquated understanding of the topic ... not so much. The Earth still is spherical, despite ships appearing to fall off the edge of the Earth and Climate Change is occurring, despite it snowing every winter.
Gore1FL
(21,132 posts)boston bean
(36,221 posts)Gore1FL
(21,132 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)boston bean
(36,221 posts)to make this a welcoming place for minorities.
Gore1FL
(21,132 posts)boston bean
(36,221 posts)uponit7771
(90,339 posts)... it'll be exposed to.
Don't see the issue with talking about it and making it notable.
I do understand a subject can be beat to death on DU but there seems to be a faction of deniers
I think the discussion does more good than bad
randys1
(16,286 posts)Gore1FL
(21,132 posts)Now it's all about semantics and the many differing perception of those semantics. In many cases, people are vehemently agreeing.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)undoubtedly see that is not the case.
Gore1FL
(21,132 posts)In any event, beating a dead horse is not the solution.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)We don't have to agree, but don't think that just because you haven't seen it, doesn't make what others say untrue.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)boston bean
(36,221 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)a Link to a single social scientist that holds his interpretation that the social scientists intended a "literal white privilege versus philosophical white privilege" distinction.
AND, I'm still waiting for Stephen Hawking to accept, or even answer, my calls to debate my ideas on theoretical physics, specifically my concept of "alternative translated dark matter"? After all, I read a couple books on physics and divined the concept.
I guess, I'll get the responses on the same day ... the 12th of never.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)in the first place, anyway.
In all honesty, there a good number of liberals who've never even heard of the term "white privilege", anyway, including some People of Color and women, etc.
Of course if you go to Free Republic or Stormfront, I'm sure they also believe white privilege doesn't exist.
Oh, many of them do, Cali_Democrat. Believe me, I've done *plenty* of research on white supremacists. They believe they're specially privileged, alright; only they believe that said (imaginary!) "privilege" is a good thing given to them by God (or implied by law), and that these God-given beneficial privileges are being taken away by a Zionist/Communist/Satanist/etc. cabal of "anti-white" "Fabian socialists"......they may not use that language, of course, but that's what the core of their beliefs revolving around the supposed "dangers" to Western civilization are.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)Stuckinthebush
(10,845 posts)I've not been looking at all these threads but we seriously do not have DUers who say that there is no such thing as White privilege do we?
Can't be. If so then that's just intensely uninformed.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)pretty much 99% of them are White males though and they either are or know a poor White guy so White privilege cannot possibly exist!
Stuckinthebush
(10,845 posts)This white guy is befuddled. I'm privileged as hell and not all that wealthy.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)at least not in the "literal" sense.....and in fact, some liberals in general have no idea what it is, either.
Only thing is, is that many of those who don't, really don't seem to have as much of a stake in making that known. And I'm okay with that.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Some don't even believe in white people existing.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)its a small minority....much to your dismay. Most here disagree with you....
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Follow the exchange, here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4959839
sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)It's most extreme expression is white class privilege. But the idea that whites have some obligation to blame themselves in an orgy of public remorse over it in order to be "authentic" liberals is not useful. It is odd that conservatives and liberals would conveniently begin trumpeting a divisive debate over it at the same time. Maybe, we can look forward to a 24/7 analysis of "White Privilege Fact or Fiction" coverage on MSM for a few weeks or until someone finally bleeds because of it.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)Some people are born into wealth. What do you expect from them. To worry about anothers inequality. They can't help it. It's just who they are.
What you want them to give up their money?
They work hard for that money. In many cases some are self made rich. They certainly don't have any privilege, they worked for everything they got. Why do they have to worry about about others experiences.
for those who may be sarcasm impaired.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)without believing in literal "privilege" of white people. It's not that hard. End of Message, End of Story.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)Well, neither do I.
You've added something new to the conversation here. What's your definition of "literal" privilege?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I've been at issue with that since I first noticed it yesterday.
For your entertainment:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4959839
sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)some white people, a few white people? The problem with the white privilege meme is that it equates an entire race of people with institutional racism, and that is nonsense. The hardest blows every struck against that system have been struck by Americans of every race, privileged and not. End of message. End of story.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)If you acknowledge that institutional racism disadvantages an entire race of people; doesn't it follow that the entire race of people NOT disadvantaged are benefited?
Very true. How does that argue against W/P?
sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)"If you acknowledge that institutional racism disadvantages an entire race of people; doesn't it follow that the entire race of people NOT disadvantaged are benefited?"
If all A's are B's then all C's cannot be B's i.e If all whites are privileged then all non-whites cannot be privileged.
I live in rural Appalachia. There are plenty of white people here who are as poor or poorer than any people in North America. The irony is that many of them think they are better than their non-white neighbors because they're white. They think they have more in common with the rich man who lives in the big house in the gated community down the road because he's white too, even though he wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire. Whatever else that kind of delusional thinking is, it isn't privilege.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)The proper construction would be: If all A's (white people) are B's (privileged), and B is a function of W (race), and C's (PoC) cannot be A's; then, C's cannot be B's.
At any rate ... you cannot believe in wealth privilege, right?
And that poor white person would be correct ... when it comes to institutional racism; which IS what white privilege is all about ... every white person, rich or poor, is equally unaffected. But institutional racism does nothing to affect the relative position of that poor white person to that rich white person.
AND, there will be Blacks that (despite institutional racism), will achieve more wealth than a white person ... But that can only be seen as note-worthy from a white privilege frame where whites are supposed to achieve more wealth than Blacks.
sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)posits the same argument as mine. The quibble is more semantic than substantive. Institutional racism is prejudice backed by power. That institution cannot be overcome without the assistance from those who benefit from it. If the white privilege frame leads you to believe that all white people benefit from institutional racism then believe it. I don't. Progressive movements are successful when they unite, not when they divide. It is the rich who oppress the poor, not the white who oppresses the black. The white man living in a trailer park was not born a member of some malignant institutional collective because of who his parents were.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Your construction attempts to deny privilege; whereas, mine, proves it.
But that said ... the divisiveness that you find is only possible when potential allies in the class battle seek to dismiss the interests of others by clinging to the racial status quo, which is white privilege.
If whites, in general, and " liberals", in particular, would reject all facets of the racial status quo, you would find powerful allies in PoC.
As it stands, your dismissiveness merely gives our mutual oppressors room to operate.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Gothmog
(145,241 posts)It is hard to take O'Reilly seriously
Jamaal510
(10,893 posts)for Billo et al. to keep their viewers comfy inside a 1950s bubble. His job is to shut down the discussion and to convince his viewers that folks are crybabies and detractors for demanding a more level playing field. The average person knows that people, still to this day, get discriminated against due to factors outside of their control such as their color, their gender, their sexual orientation, or what their last name is. But to him and his RW talking head peers, it's far worse to retaliate against (and call out) discrimination than to be the perpetrator.
greendog
(3,127 posts)I'm pretty sure he's some demented billionaire's ventriloquist dummy.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)I'll give you some credit for that.
sheshe2
(83,764 posts)And they are going to the mat with this one C_D, that's just sad.
RedCappedBandit
(5,514 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)+1
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Unlike those loser poor whites who played the game of life on the easy setting and still lost by the only way we have of keeping score in America, your investment portfolio.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)JEB
(4,748 posts)would be sleeping under a bridge.