Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

xchrom

(108,903 posts)
Fri May 16, 2014, 05:59 AM May 2014

Economists Think That Wages Are Going to Rise This Year. They should think again.

http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_edgy_optimist/2014/05/economists_think_wages_are_going_to_rise_this_year_they_should_think_again.html



By a significant margin, economists are feeling optimistic about the year ahead. In a recent survey conducted by USA Today, a large majority said that they expect wages to climb this year, after five years during which there has been hardly any growth at all.

That would appear to be very good news. But there are strong reasons to question whether these rosy expectations will come to pass.

irst, the expectations rest on the assumption that wages will rise as the job market continues to tighten. That was the familiar pattern for a considerable portion of the 20th century. Economic activity would pick up; companies would hire to meet the surge in demand; fewer people looking for work meant that companies needed to pay more to attract and keep workers; rising wages meant increased inflation, and so on. Today, although first-quarter growth was almost zero, the sense is that activity is picking up; the unemployment rate has been falling, and if past patterns hold, wages should soon increase.

But what if past patterns don’t hold? Take the move toward onshoring of American manufacturing. There does seem to be a move toward factories reopening in the United States, as labor costs in China go up and wage costs in a less unionized America are lower than they were decades ago, when those jobs began evaporating. Yet those new factories, whose output will boost GDP growth, are only hiring hundreds of people each. Back when those patterns of increased output and rising wages evolved in the mid-20th century, those numbers would have been in the thousands.

And why should companies feel compelled to increase wages at all? The argument that a tighter labor force will lead to higher wages may hold true for skilled jobs, high-tech jobs, and jobs that require specialized abilities in high demand. But for lower-end jobs—at mass retailers and fast-food restaurants, in temporary work— where will the pressure to increase wages come from?
15 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Economists Think That Wages Are Going to Rise This Year. They should think again. (Original Post) xchrom May 2014 OP
The economists are basing their assumption on the official unemployment number Savannahmann May 2014 #1
You have that at your local McDonalds? Prophet 451 May 2014 #4
Even in red state poor-as-hell Indiana we have that McDonald's machine... Shandris May 2014 #5
I would suggest Prophet 451 May 2014 #7
I can see an argument made from that premise... Shandris May 2014 #10
In the long run, you may be right Prophet 451 May 2014 #13
I couldn't possibly agree more about national healthcare. Shandris May 2014 #15
Machines everywhere Savannahmann May 2014 #6
That's a horrifyijng thought Prophet 451 May 2014 #8
And the food will be better and safer for it. nt Demo_Chris May 2014 #14
Seems like there are only two things to look at... TreasonousBastard May 2014 #2
Wages will only rise when they are forced to Prophet 451 May 2014 #3
Economists are right about their predictions about as often as astrologers. hobbit709 May 2014 #9
Please.. sendero May 2014 #11
Talking to a crew of guys yesterday who trim trees for the power company. Very B Calm May 2014 #12
 

Savannahmann

(3,891 posts)
1. The economists are basing their assumption on the official unemployment number
Fri May 16, 2014, 06:16 AM
May 2014

The problem is that this particular number is false, and has been for generations. It doesn't take into account those who have "left" the labor force, in other words, they've given up.

There are 92 million people who are not in the labor force. That is approaching the 1/3 ratio that is flatly unsupportable. Yet we celebrate every month and shout at the RW that Obama is kicking ass in Job creation. In 2004, there were 75 million not in the labor force. That number has gone up to 92 million so far this year, and it stands to increase dramatically.

There are nearly 5% of our workers that are multiple job holders. In other words, they get off work, and then go start a second job.

I'll be honest, I'm torn personally on the minimum wage thing. Yes, I want people to make more money. But when I go to McDonalds, I see machines doing things that many years ago I did as a 16 and 17 year old lad. Today, the cup is dropped into a ring, and it spins to the ice drop, where the proper amount of ice is placed into the cup. Then the cup spins around and the beverage of choice is deployed. All the human does is put the lid on and hand it to the customer along with a straw. Back in the old days, I was the mechanism that put ice in the cup, selected the drink to be dispensed and all that sort of thing, and then gave the cup to the person at the register to give to the customer.

The fries are similar. A machine shoots fries into a basket, and then drops the basket into the oil. When they are halfway done cooking, they are taken from the oil and shaken, by the machine. I did that job too many years ago.

So I believe the estimate that half a million jobs will be lost. Because in my life I've seen many jobs replaced by machines.

As I said I am torn, because I want people to make more money, but I am also wary of even more people ending up in that 92 million unemployed list.

I know, you doubt my numbers, well they're available from the BLS website here. Check them out yourself. I wish I was making them up, I really do.

 

Shandris

(3,447 posts)
5. Even in red state poor-as-hell Indiana we have that McDonald's machine...
Fri May 16, 2014, 06:53 AM
May 2014

...although there are still other Fast Food places that don't have them also.

But back in the day most places filled your cup for you, and there's not one single place here that I can think of that isn't a restaurant that fills your cup now; the cashier just hands you a cup at best and hands it to you. That other machine is only for the drive-thru.

I see most FF places around here running 5-6 person teams during rushes. When I was younger (read: early 1990) there were 12-14 on a rush night. We had 20 at Pizza Hut, and that wasn't counting drivers! Now its about a third of that.

I fear the new machines are going to be the outcome of the $15 movement. I think it's horrible and evil, but I know from people who work as lower-tier management that their corporate bosses are looking hard and heavy at those machines and the moment it becomes more cost effective, they're going to them.

The $15 movement is hopeful, and its nice...but I don't think its sustainable (although I'd LOVE to be wrong!!). I think we need to be getting the Basic Income argument started now, because the number of years it will take to pass means that we'll rack up the starving and dead before it ever gets instituted if we wait around while every observable sign warns us what's coming.

Prophet 451

(9,796 posts)
7. I would suggest
Fri May 16, 2014, 06:56 AM
May 2014

That we can't even begin having teh Basic Income argument until we get people to stop thinking of wages in the "just world" delusion. And the $15 movement is an important step in that process.

 

Shandris

(3,447 posts)
10. I can see an argument made from that premise...
Fri May 16, 2014, 07:09 AM
May 2014

...but once they concede to the $15 movement, the recalcitrance to any further movement will resolidify under the guise of "We -just- gave them what they want and now they want more! See, they'll never be satisfied!". Meanwhile, more will starve and all the time we've spent on a paltry $15 for a small group of the most easily replaced jobs will be almost worthless.

It's a rough position no matter which way we go, to be certain. Like I said...I can see the argument quite clearly. I just don't know if its the best one in the long run. In fairness, the $15 movement would ostensibly be better for -me- personally in the long run, but I'm not just concerned about me.

Prophet 451

(9,796 posts)
13. In the long run, you may be right
Fri May 16, 2014, 07:21 AM
May 2014

The problem is, a lot of these people don't have the luxury of thinking long-term. The people flipping burgers or stocking shelves (and I';ve done both) need the extra money right now.

Long-term, the whole economy needs re-thinking. Like I said, we have got to kill off the "just world" fallacy. The US desperately needs a national healthcare system (which would create a load of recession-proof jobs that can't be replaced by machines, at least not for another century or so), the imports/tariffs system needs overhauling (and your leaders have got to get over the obsession with free trade, free trade kills working class wages). There's a lot to do.

 

Shandris

(3,447 posts)
15. I couldn't possibly agree more about national healthcare.
Fri May 16, 2014, 02:55 PM
May 2014

The ACA, while a step, just isn't anywhere close to the same (and nearly half our states rejected furthering what little help they do give to cover the huge gap in it, including mine). Nor could I agree more about the JW fallacy. In fact, IMO, just killing that alone -could- (although I fear it may fall into, as my dad used to say, "Coulda woulda shoulda&quot give our burger flippers and shelf-stockers enough momentum to organize some collectives of our own -- not that anything is directly stopping us (and I use 'us' because my shared household includes one such individual and myself, 'forcibly' retired via disability), but that too many have in the past believed so strongly in that myth as to preclude the idea of charity or long-term collective thinking. And that's the real tragedy. At least in my area, although we scrape by pretty closely, two people on our low incomes can get by and still cover the essentials without hitting negative numbers every month (ie, some months we do, but not so often that we're drowning in debt like so many others). That's better than our coastal counterparts by a long shot! But so few people of my generation have the mindset to allow them to do that for a long period of time, especially once marriage or children (one problem I don't have, and likely never will) enter the mix.

I do notice that fewer of our younger generation seem to have so much of a mindset, and that gives me some hope. It's hard to speak intelligently about the prevailing attitudes of a generation from outside of it, though, and I see (also anecdotally) that the ones who -do- believe in it often appear to believe in it more than anyone I've ever seen. An odd kind of polarization, one that I can't help but feel my generation and the one preceding it gave to them while raising them. But like I said...maybe my view of that is off.

I guess at this point I'm just sort of rambling, and I do apologize for that. Haven't had enough caffeine yet. A lot to do, as you say...and what seems like so little time to do it in. It will be an 'interesting' decade. Of course, as I recall, that's the basis of an old curse.

 

Savannahmann

(3,891 posts)
6. Machines everywhere
Fri May 16, 2014, 06:54 AM
May 2014

Even the job of "flipping burgers" is gone. The grill now has a press that lowers and cooks the "top" of the burgers. The human shovels them into a hopper when they're done, oh I guess he/she sprinkles a little seasoning on them at some point.

It won't be long before you walk in, select what you want on a touch screen, and then wham a burger to order drops out of a chute with one human loading raw materials into hoppers in the back.

http://www.gizmag.com/hamburger-machine/25159/

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
2. Seems like there are only two things to look at...
Fri May 16, 2014, 06:19 AM
May 2014

what are the jobs over the next 10 years and what are the population trends?

Automation is killing jobs faster than imports are. It takes a lot fewer people to build a car or an office tower than it used to. Even in a machine shop one computer driven milling machine can do the work of ten or twenty manual ones. What is replacing those jobs?

The huge postwar population bulge is retiring and dying off-- where is population growth coming from?

Anyone can pretend to have a crystal ball, but it's usually some random invention or discovery that causes change. Can anyone imagine what the world would be like hadn't Bell Labs come across the transistor?

Prophet 451

(9,796 posts)
3. Wages will only rise when they are forced to
Fri May 16, 2014, 06:36 AM
May 2014

Corporations will pay the least amount they can get away with and if you don't like it, there's millions desperate enough to take it.

sendero

(28,552 posts)
11. Please..
Fri May 16, 2014, 07:20 AM
May 2014

... I personally think astrologers get it right more often than economists. A random guess would be closer than the continual rah rah recovery we keep hearing about, economists have left the arena of scholars and joined the ranks of cheerleaders.

THERE IS NO RECOVERY.

 

B Calm

(28,762 posts)
12. Talking to a crew of guys yesterday who trim trees for the power company. Very
Fri May 16, 2014, 07:21 AM
May 2014

dangerous back breaking work. They are on the road all week staying in motels and going home on weekends. I was really surprised to find out they only make around $15 dollars an hour. Talk about bullshit wages! They should at the least be making around $30 an hour!!

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Economists Think That Wag...