Pope Makes Biblical Case For Addressing Climate Change: "Destruction of the planet is a sinful act"

[kpete]

Pope Francis Makes Biblical Case For Addressing Climate Change
BY JACK JENKINS ON MAY 21, 2014

“But when we exploit Creation we destroy the sign of God’s love for us, in destroying Creation we are saying to God: ‘I don’t like it! This is not good!’ ‘So what do you like?’ ‘I like myself!’ – Here, this is sin! Do you see?”

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

“Safeguard Creation,” he said. “Because if we destroy Creation, Creation will destroy us! Never forget this!”

The pope centered his environmentalist theology around the biblical creation story in the book of Genesis, where God is said to have created the world, declared it “good,” and charged humanity with its care.

Francis also made reference to his namesake, Saint Francis of Assisi, who was a famous lover of animals, and appeared to tie the ongoing environmental crisis to economic concerns — namely, instances where a wealthy minority exploits the planet at the expense of the poor.

“Creation is not a property, which we can rule over at will; or, even less, is the property of only a few: Creation is a gift, it is a wonderful gift that God has given us, so that we care for it and we use it for the benefit of all, always with great respect and gratitude,” Francis said.

Francis also said that humanity’s destruction of the planet is a sinful act, likening it to self-idolatry.

..................................

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/05/21/3440075/pope-francis-if-we-destroy-creation-creation-will-destroy-us/

[onehandle]

1. Excommunicate all elected Catholic Republicans. nt

[tokenlib]

4. Paul Ryan would be a good object lesson to be targeted..n/t

[Cleita]

15. Don't know if there are grounds for excommunication, but they could

singled out one by one and shamed on the pulpit I would think.

[TexasProgresive]

18. That would be great but

I doubt many bishops would tempt the IRS. Independent, non-aligned churches can get away with that since they can slide under the radar, not so with big intitutions like the Catholic, Episcopal, Methodist and so on.

[BrotherIvan]

23. There are many who are not listening to this pope

I wonder if he has a plan. Excommunication was my first thought. Needless to say, I won't be holding my breath.

[The Green Manalishi]

67. With the tea baggers,

Exorcism might be the appropriate first step.

[BrotherIvan]

73. I wonder what would come out?

[apnu]

2. I don't know about the self-idolarty angle

But I don't disagree with him. Modern Catholics, that I've met and interacted with, seem to be more of a "let's shepherd the earth" type than the protestant/evangelical "the earth is a gift from God and we can do anything we like." stuff. Catholics realize, like the rest of us, that we're part of this planet and it supports our lives. Trashing the planet is really a form of suicide. Perhaps that's what the Pope is getting at.

Either way, I've always found it amusing and scary that so many Christians in America think its their God given right to trash everything. Yet they're big on breeding like rabbits. I keep thinking, you want your kids to live in a polluted landscape? Really? But they don't care, they all think they've got tickets to the Rapture bus.

When I argue environmentalism with conservatives, I don't go the polar bear route, as much as they want me to, being an easy argument to dismiss. I talk about their land, their water, their air, their cancer, and then I talk about their kids being in that environment, right now, in the gated community they live in. Scares the hell out of them, every time.

Make the conversation about the environment personal to them, and they'll suddenly show up at the next Earth Day rally. Or they'll shut the hell up about industrialization. Either way, I count that as a win.

[kpete]

3. well said apnu

I don't go the polar bear route, as much as they want me to, being an easy argument to dismiss. I talk about their land, their water, their air, their cancer, and then I talk about their kids being in that environment, right now, in the gated community they live in.


you are a good teacher,
peace,
kp

[apnu]

5. Thank you! (nt)

[geardaddy]

13. There are plenty of evangelical Catholics around too.

My church (Congregationalist) is as liberal as you can get. I don't think it's Catholic/Protestant issue so much as it is a Evangelical/Liberal church issue.

[pnwmom]

66. The Roman Catholic Church doesn't include an Evangelical branch. And there is unanimity

among the Bishops, Cardinals, and the Pope on this issue.

There are some people who call themselves Evangelical Catholics, but anyone can call themselves anything.

[jwirr]

21. Self = me and only me. Self-idolatry. I will probably get it here but in my younger really

religious days I wrote a book concerning this very subject doing a study of the word self in the Bible and assuming that the theologians interpreted the word in the narrow sense. This type of interpretation would have led to hate of anything other than self. An example is the word selfish, self-centered, etc.

Needless to say the book is unpublished and will most likely stay that way.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. We had a few fires this past week

And the tea party activist tried to paint this as lib'rard tree hugger types that hate them and prevent controlled burns. I turned it around and pointed out who got up in arms last controlled burn, which included a few groves killed by invasive species. It was not the Sierra club. It was the very conservative back country residents.

They were the tree huggers. Quickly the conversation switched to camera gear. So yes, you are right, don't make it about the nettle, popular around these parts. Personify any issue to them.

[apnu]

30. Yup. Once I figured out how self-centered Conservatives are, dealing with them became easy.

Relate every and any issue to be a personal one for them, and they change their tune instantly.

Pick any issue:

Pro-Choice
Gay Marriage
Universal Healthcare
Unions

Anything... if you can relate it to them in terms that either benefit or threaten them, they'll be won over. Its how the right wing echo chamber talks to them, and why taxation is such a huge issue to Conservatives. Its a direct connection of the Government in their personal lives. They don't give a hoot about anybody else but themselves (and their immediate family). Any conversation about helping some generic other is a turn off.

Once you figure that out it becomes too easy to manipulate them to our way of thinking. They aren't deep thinkers for the most part, but even if they are. Turn the conversation to on that illustrates how their pockets are being picked (to pull from Jefferson for a moment) and even the most intellectual conservative's argument will crumble right away.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. I will add, this is not just conservatives

I have had a few conversations with very liberal people who do not have a global, or a regional view.

[Swede Atlanta]

87. The "self-idolatary" angle is, IMHO, spot on.......

It is a worldview in which self and satisfying the physical self's desires and wishes are central.

I want to be able to drive in a gas-powered SUV directly from my home to my office and back alone. I don't think we should invest in public transportation nor do I think I should even consider using it. After all, what is more convenient for me is to drive my fancy SUV whenever I want.

That is self-idolatry - the opposite of what Jesus taught.

So we destroy the earth, kill off many species, pollute the land, water and air, burn up all of its resources without any regard to the trust God placed in man (if you believe in Genesis) over care for creation.

[Volaris]

106. my exp has been that catholics are (Generally) better educated than the average,

Self-professed evangelical in America. That may be why they seem to get it more redily than their counterparts. The public exceptions are people like Santorum and Ryan, but i would bet dollars to donuts even they privatly know better. What they say is for campaign
checks and votes from idiots.

[pscot]

6. Dumb too

Incredibly dumb.

[riderinthestorm]

7. I'll K&R this. At this stage of the game I'll take any voice that urges action nt

[Uncle Joe]

8. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, kpete.

[Kaleva]

9. Destroying the planet is activity reserved for God Himself.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Actually god promised Noah to never ever

Do that again. (That dove in the story )

God said nothing about man. He gave us free will. Why the Pope is using the exact same story RW religious nuts use to justify using the planet as they see fit, since we were given dominion over the Earth.

[Kaleva]

39. God promised Noah that he wouldn't flood the world again

"never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of a flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth" (Genesis 9:11).

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. Which many experts translate as not destroying the world

we can do it, and are doing it.

Regardless, the Noah story is a new take on two other Sumerian sources.

[bananas]

45. Actually, the bible predicts fire next time.

As I just posted, James Baldwin used it as a title for one of his books.

It's often considered to warn of nuclear war. Or of the sun evolving into a red giant and consuming the earth billions of years from now.

Some of the bible quotes predicting fire next time:

http://biblehub.com/2_peter/3-7.htm

... through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

http://biblehub.com/matthew/13-40.htm

Just as the weeds are sorted out and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the world.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. That is the new testament

Pope Francis was referring to a tale written a few hundred years before that. To be precise, about a thousand years before.

And that actually makes a world of difference.

Many experts also believe that was an allegory to current events.

[bananas]

51. The Pope believe the New Testament. nt

[bananas]

52. 1993 TV movie "The Fire Next Time" about Global Warming.

I'm just pointing out that there are many cultural references to this biblical prophecy.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105998/

The Fire Next Time (1993)

TV Movie - 195 min - Adventure | Sci-Fi | Drama - 20 April 1993 (USA)

2017: The greenhouse effect and global warming take their toll as droughts, floods, and hurricanes wreak mass destruction in a world gone mad, one family struggles to survive against all odds...

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. And I will take any bible story and believe in it as a fairy tale

prophecy is not something I give to the Bible.

[Nonhlanhla]

68. Three things

First of all, good for the pope for expanding the Catholic ethical focus some more. Actually, having studied Catholic Social Teaching, what he is saying is not surprising to me. But it is high time that the leader of the Catholic Church makes this kind of noise, so I say good for him.

Secondly, to the posters who referred to James Baldwin - yoohoo. Love him! Love the title of that book too.

Thirdly, regarding the story of Noah. When I was a kid I always thought that the divine promise not to flood the earth again at the end of that story, is rather meaningless, given that God has so many other divine WMD's like fire or disease available! But having taught this text frequently, I have grown to love it for its symbolism. To interpret the Noah story, one has to go back to the first creation account, the one found in Genesis 1 (Genesis 2's story is an entirely separate creation account), where creation consists of a dome between the waters below and the waters above. Water = chaos, lack of creation order, and thereby a state of no life being possible. Dome in the middle of the waters = a place of rhythm and order in which life gradually develops, culminating in human life (in the story). In the imagination of the ancient Middle East, the world is therefore a place of order amidst the surrounding chaos/water. (The story is roughly based on the Babylonian story of the warrior god Marduk slaying the goddess Tiamat - goddess of chaos/water - and creating a dome in the middle of the two parts of her body.) Anyway, if one understands this about the ancient ME worldview, the story of Noah is not the story of a flood per se, but the story of the order of creation being overwhelmed by chaos. Hence the importance of the divine promise at the end of the story, in which the rhythms of nature are promised (day and night, summer and winter, etc.). What God promises at the end of the story is not that the world won't be destroyed by a particular method (leaving the door open for alternative divine WMD's like "the fire next time&quot , but that the rhythms of nature will continue, that the chaos won't be allowed to reign. The story is highly mythical of course (and also largely derivative of other ancient myths, such as the Eridu Genesis, Atrahasis, the Gilgamesh flood story, and others), but it has significance for the current climate crisis. At the root of the dominant Western religions is this story of divine care for creation. The irony is that we ourselves might be destroying the very rhythms of creation to which the story alludes.

That in short. One of my favorite stories, I should add. We read the Gilgamesh epic as well as the first chapters in Genesis in my freshmen college class every year, and I just enjoy teaching this material. A pity that these chapters are so widely misunderstood! They are classical expressions of the human spirit, and they often contain a lot of wisdom.

[Raksha]

89. Very beautiful exegesis - thank you.

Re What God promises at the end of the story is not that the world won't be destroyed by a particular method (leaving the door open for alternative divine WMD's like "the fire next time&quot , but that the rhythms of nature will continue, that the chaos won't be allowed to reign.

This is the way I interpret the Flood story and other biblical stories, although I don't think I've ever put it that succinctly, even to myself. But symbolic non-literalist interpretations like this are the only way these stories can continue to have relevance. I'm glad the Pope gets it too.

Re The story is highly mythical of course (and also largely derivative of other ancient myths, such as the Eridu Genesis, Atrahasis, the Gilgamesh flood story, and others), but it has significance for the current climate crisis. At the root of the dominant Western religions is this story of divine care for creation. The irony is that we ourselves might be destroying the very rhythms of creation to which the story alludes.

And on which our lives and all life depends.

Oh yes, and welcome to DU!

[Nonhlanhla]

98. Thank you!

Thanks for the kind words. I really love the first 11 chapters in Genesis, and I hate what a lot of people do with these texts. My reading of it is pretty standard in Catholicism as well as mainstream Protestantism, but not widely known among the laity, and of course not often heard over the noise of the fundamentalists.

And thanks for the welcome. I'm a longtime lurker on DU, and joined some time ago although I don't post often. It's one of my favorite sites!

[bananas]

49. Woody Guthrie - Sowing on the Mountain - 1944

Woody used it in his lyrics:
"God gave Noah the rainbow sign
It won't be water, but fire next time. "

Woody Guthrie Sowing on the Mountain The Asch Recordings Vol. 2 (1944) www.woodyguthrie.com

http://woodyguthrie.org/Lyrics/Sowing_On_The_Mountain.htm

Sowing on the Mountain
Words and Music Adaptation by Woody Guthrie

Sowing on the mountain, Reaping in the valley;
Sowing on the mountain, Reaping in the valley;
Sowing on the moun tain, Reaping in the valley,
You're gonna reap just what you sow.

God gave Noah the rainbow sign
God gave Noah the rainbow sign
God gave Noah the rainbow sign
It won't be water, but fire next time.

Won't be water, but fire next time
Won't be water, but fire next time
Won't be water, but fire next time
God gave Noah the rainbow sign.

[bananas]

43. The Fire Next Time - by James Baldwin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fire_Next_Time

The Fire Next Time
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For the 1980s British band, see Fire Next Time (1980s band)

The Fire Next Time is a book by James Baldwin.

<snip>

The book's title comes from the Negro spiritual line, "God gave Noah the rainbow sign, no more water but fire next time".[2][3]

<snip>

[bananas]

55. The Carter Family - God Gave Noah The Rainbow Sign - 1927

"God gave Noah the rainbow sign
No more water, but the fire next time"

Just pointing out this goes way back.

The Carter Family,God Gave Noah The Rainbow Sign,1927

http://lyrics.wikia.com/Ralph_Stanley:God_Gave_Noah_The_Rainbow_Sign

This song is performed by Ralph Stanley and appears on the album A Distant Land To Roam: Songs Of The Carter Family (2006).


I've got a home in that rock
Don't you see (don't you see)
I've got a home in that rock
Don't you see
I've got a home in that rock
Just beyond the mountaintop
Tide me over, Rock of Ages, cleft for me

God gave Noah the rainbow sign
Don't you see (don't you see)
God gave Noah the rainbow sign
Don't you see
God gave Noah the rainbow sign
No more water, but the fire next time
Tide me over, Rock of Ages, cleft for me

Poor old Lazarus, poor as I
Don't you see (don't you see)
Poor old Lazarus, poor as I
Don't you see
Poor old Lazarus, poor as I
When he died he had a home on high
Tide me over, Rock of Ages, cleft for me

East and West the fire will roll
Hide thou me (hide thou me)
East and West the fire will roll
Hide thou me
East and West the fire will roll
How will it be with my poor soul
Tide me over, Rock of Ages, cleft for me

When this world's all on fire
Hide thou me (hide thou me)
When this world's all on fire
Hide thou me
When this world's all on fire
Let his will be my desire
Tide me over, Rock of Ages, cleft for me

[daleanime]

10. K&R....

[peoli]

11. k/r

[underpants]

12. Lighten up Francis...

...or you will have to answer to Pat Sajak

[deutsey]

17. Lol

[Cleita]

14. Whatever reason it takes to get us there.

Even if it isn't very scientific?

[kiranon]

16. Perhaps no communion as the church does with prochoice

advocates. Good for the Pope.

[Bluenorthwest]

19. What a self serving man he is. He and his Bishops are supporting laws against God's people

some Bishops are calling for murder in the streets to eliminate minorities they don't like, whom they judge as mistakes of creation which they in their superiority to the divine must correct. They order their congregations to turn their gay friends and family into the police and they pray for a day when all LGBT people have been eliminated.
The hubris of this old bigot causes him to absolve himself and his employees without even a moment's reflection.

Those of you who dig hate mongers are really something to see. You make the world worse for people who never did any harm to you or yours and you do so simply for your own pleasure.

[Katashi_itto]

35. Lol, still spinning the same notes over and over.

[cleanhippie]

58. Actually it's religion spinning the same notes over and over.

This is the popes latest attempt to get people to listen to the music.

[Katashi_itto]

59. About Climate Change? Righhtt...

[skepticscott]

76. No, as usual, it's about HIS god

and what HIS god (or at least, his interpretation of that god) wants us to do. He's not urging people do this because the consequences to humanity will be grave if global warming isn't halted. It's all about keeping god happy.

[Katashi_itto]

78. He's urging 1 billion followers to wake up. But seriously if thats what ticks you off then Cool,

not do anything. Thats called cutting your nose off to spite your face.

[theHandpuppet]

79. There's a few other things he tells his 1 billion followers that's aren't so nice

But hey, if you can ignore those minor issues like equality and basic human rights, there's a role model for you.

[Katashi_itto]

82. In the face of basic Human survival? Again your priorities are skewed

[theHandpuppet]

86. So the Pope can't walk and chew gum at the same time. Gotcha.

Because as we all know, it's an either/or thing. Should he support basic human rights for all or champion the environment?
I'm sure the millions of women and GLBTs around the globe for whom equality and human rights directly effect their basic survival every day will understand that he couldn't speak up for them and the environment at the same time. Funny, there are people in this world who do manage to champion the environment without promoting misogyny and homophobia in the same breath.

[skepticscott]

80. Did I say it ticked me off?

No. Nowhere. Why you feel the need to say I did is a mystery. I pointed out that his motives have nothing to do with protecting the planet for humans.

And why is it that he gets credit for motivating a billion Catholics in a situation like this, but when the urges that Catholics should oppose same-sex marriage or forego the use of artificial contraception, apologists are quick to point out that most Catholics don't listen to the pope's dictates on what god expects them to do?

[Katashi_itto]

83. It doesnt matter about the other stuff in this situation. I am not apologizing for him. I am

looking at the fact mankind could be extinct in less than a hundred years. Equality, same-sex marriage, Uganda, it won't matter, there won't be anyone around to worry about it.

[skepticscott]

95. No, mankind won't be extinct

But regardless of that, the RCC is very late to this party (as usual) and Francis is only trying to grab headlines at this point. Where was he 10 or 20 years ago on this issue, when it might have made a real difference?

[Katashi_itto]

97. Lol! I am glad your so sure of everything.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

92. See the great skepticscott

Able to determine the motives of men he has never met. How to you know that Pope Francis' "motives have nothing to do with protecting the planet for humans"? Be specific.

I said elsewhere in this thread that you are so consumed with hatred for the man that you insist -- based on nothing more than your own prejudices -- that he has the basest of motives. Thank you for giving me evidence for my statement.

Of course, same sex marriage has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the environment, but of course, your hatred is so all-consuming that you are unable to avoid your obligatory irrelevant sneer.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

84. You have to uderstand that skepticscott and cleanhippie refuse to admit that any religious leader is

Not working from the basest of motives. The Pope is taking a stance that they actually agree with, but their hatred (and that is the correct word) is so overwhelming that they cannot just accept it for what it is. No, they have to sneer at him simply because he is the Pope. Hate, hate, hate, that's skepticscott and cleanhippie in a nutshell.

[Katashi_itto]

85. Excellent points. It's a variation on the Obama Derangement Syndrome.

[skepticscott]

96. As noted, the pope and the RCC are abysmally late to do anything

that will truly matter on this issue. Maybe a couple of decades ago, if they had been as loud, and had done as much political arm-twisting on the issue of global warming as they have on the sexual habits of non-Catholics, they might have done some good and deserve some credit. But they chose to make issues like abortion, contraception, divorce and same-sex marriage their political priorities instead.

You'll forgive me if I don't applaud that. Your cohort has argued that none of those matter in the face of global warming. Is he wrong?

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

99. A couple of decades ago, Francis was not Pope

But niggling little details like that do not matter to you, do they?

As I said, the Pope says something you actually agree with, but your visceral hatred is such that you refuse to give him any credit for saying it. You would rather natter about irrelevancies, which allow you to spew your bigoted hatred.

[skepticscott]

102. Oh, and he had no voice back then?

He was incapable of speaking, just because he wasn't pope? He was not allowed to express opinions on vital social issues? And the people who were pope were totally unaware of this issue?

Seriously? That's your argument? You can't even answer the simple points I raised, and you're spewing this laughable nonsense? Not to mention your usual playground insults.

And no, sorry, I'm not going to kneel down and kiss the pope's whatever because he's decided to make yet another grab for media attention on an issue that the RCC has for decades relegated to status far below that of who's sleeping with who, and whether they're enjoying it. We're supposed to take them seriously now?

[skepticscott]

109. And all you can do is spew more playground insults

while refusing to address any of the points I raised. If you had evidence of Francis speaking out on this in the past, you would have presented it. If you could counter the claim that the RCC has ever cared more about consenting adults having sex in private than about the fate of the whole earth, you would have presented it.

Sad.

[rug]

46. What! You didn't mention Uganda.

[theHandpuppet]

48. No, but thanks for reminding us.

[Jack Rabbit]

20. Get ready for more howling from right wing Catholics

Maybe Rick Santorum will drop his presidential bid to challenge Pope Francis instead.

[wandy]

22. OK, so far this Pope is condemnin inequality and now he's worried about destroying the planet.......

How long before well informed christian Teapublicans demand his impeachment?

[dflprincess]

24. Or they'll go back to their KKK roots and just add the "papists"

back to the list of people they think are un-merican.

[hatrack]

88. Oh, hell, the Teaklan Brigades view Catholicism they way most people view Scientology

But in answer to your question, I'm sure they already have.

[Raksha]

90. I don't think "well-informed Christian" and "Teapublican" belong in the same sentence.

They definitely don't refer to the same people. There are some well-informed Christians right on this thread, and they sure aren't demanding this Pope's impeachment!

[wandy]

91. I would agree with you. Unfortunately you have a very bad PR group............

Just as Democrats have allowed the right to set the tone of discussion, Christians have allowed the religious wackjob right to appear to represent you're views.
It is unavoidable that those with the loudest voice become the apparent representatives.
"Good" christions such as Pat Robertson, Pat Buchanan and Phil Robertson become the defacto preachers.
The likes of Sarah Geller and James Dobsen are the ones that extol god's love of their fellow man.
"Scholars" such as Ken Ham show the enlightenment of christan science.

You do understand that elected officials demanding christian representation in government without considering the various branches of Christianity much less loosely affiliated agnostics can be unnerving.
One can not help but wonder if this is the christanity they would bring to government.

Put simply "with a smile on my face and love in my heart", you folk need a new PR team.

[Raksha]

107. "You folk"? Slight case of mistaken identity here, so allow me to clarify:

I am not a Christian. I'm Jewish with strong neopagan and syncretist leanings, but a universalist and secular humanist before all else. The one form of Christianity I relate to is the Gnostic form, which is considered a heresy by orthodox or mainstream Christianity. It's very possible though that Gnosticism is pre-Christian in origin, and only acquired a Christian coloring later on.

The exegesis I was praising was a commentary on the Book of Genesis, the first book of the Tanakh aka the "Old Testament." NOT a Christian book, although Christians (fundies especially) have appropriated it and tried to copyright it.

[davidthegnome]

25. It's getting very late.

I watched a documentary last night that scared the crap out of me. It was all about natural gas and methane leaks. Basically, the position of the industry and of the EPA is that the overall leakage is well below the danger-level of 3%. What I didn't know until watching this was that the EPA gets it's data from the industry (the EPA does not take any comprehensive measurements of how much methane is leaking into the atmosphere - yet they claim a leak of something like 1.5%). Independent studies indicate that the amount is actually dangerously, frighteningly higher than anyone suspected. From the wells all over the Country, to the pipeline all over the Country, we are leaking an immense amount of methane into the atmosphere. So much, that, far from using "clean natural gas" we are actually speeding our way towards whatever the end result of global warming will be.

Nonetheless, these corporations and individuals with immensely deep pockets continue their campaign of misinformation. ALEC, the Hartland foundation, the Heritage foundation... Koch industries, they are pouring massive resources into (and fighting like hell for) rolling back any progress we have made with renewable energy policies. They are just barely failing - so far.

The oil industry, the natural gas industry... they are destroying the world for profit - and lying to us about it. The EPA, the government... as of yet, no one really has a clue just how dangerous "clean, natural gas" really is, but it is certain to be well beyond the safe zone. In other words - current methods of extracting natural gas make it even more dirty, even more dangerous than coal.

I'm no where near throwing in the towel - but the culprits, the sadistic, wealthy, immensely greedy crooks - they need to be pointed out and condemned over and over and over again. We are being lied to - and if we don't do something about this very soon, our grandchildren and great grandchildren will have nothing left to grow up in.

A sin to destroy the world? Absolutely - but doing so deliberately while misleading the public about it in order to profit financially? Surely, in nearly any religion, this would earn the criminals a very special place in hell.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

34. + n/t

[Chemisse]

74. Well said.

[Octafish]

26. Pope Francis certainly knows how to use the Bully Pulpit.

Wish more people in positions of leadership did likewise.

[raouldukelives]

27. Amen to that. nt

[theHandpuppet]

31. If that were true...

There's no reason he shouldn't be using his bully pulpit to promote the equality of women and LGBTs.

[Octafish]

32. So far, his actions have backed up his words.

Which is good in a leader.

[theHandpuppet]

37. Which means what?

He hasn't spoken in favor of equal rights for women and gays so I'm not sure what argument you're making here.

[Octafish]

38. He's trying, that's what.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/05/pope-francis-gay-parents-_n_4542026.html

[theHandpuppet]

42. Trying what?

I could point to a score of his recent comments against gay marriage AND gay adoption, not to mention his condemnation of contraception, abortion, rejection of women as priests and his smackdown of progressive nuns. He has done nothing to advance the cause of equal rights for women and LGBTIs. Get back to me when fantasy becomes reality.

[el_bryanto]

41. maybe that we should agree with him when we agree with him (like on this issue)

and disagree with him when we disagree with him - like on equal rights for woman and gays.

Bryant

[theHandpuppet]

47. Oh, well then.

I guess I can overlook the fact that he's the leader of a wealthy and powerful religious institution whose dogmas relegate HALF THE WORLD'S PEOPLE to the status of second class humans.

Yea, Francis!

[el_bryanto]

53. Right - because that's what I said. nt

[theHandpuppet]

77. To me, this is not a matter of picking and choosing what people wish to ignore

Last edited Sat May 24, 2014, 11:13 PM - Edit history (1)

Would anyone here be so magnanimous or forgiving had we been discussing someone who was an avowed racist? What if Francis had called Jews "intrinsically disordered"? Had stated that blacks shouldn't be allowed to adopt children and that to do so was tantamount to child abuse? Asserted that Hispanics could never become leaders in the church? Promoted a dogma that rejects the legitimacy of marriage among Native Americans, calling it an "anthropological regression"? Would these types of outrageous statements be tolerated here as long as the person delivering them called environmental destruction a sin?

This is not a matter of "agreeing or disagreeing" in measures. It's not okay to deny that all people are deserving of basic human rights as long as you believe in global climate change, for example. It's not okay to be an avowed homophobe and misogynist as long as you speak out on poverty, no more than Franklin Graham's bigotry can be excused because he's the president of Samaritan's Purse, an international relief organization. We excoriate such religious leaders here and deservedly so, yet elevate Francis to the status of a folk icon.

Perhaps some folks here are capable of a type of compartmentalization that gives Pope Francis a pass for his bigotry, but I'm not. The belief that ALL people are deserving of their basic and equal human rights is the foundation upon which all good works must be built, or the best laid plans and aspirations of the finest architects will fail. This holds true no matter what your religion or whether you ascribe to religion at all. It’s a truth that belongs to everyone, everywhere.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

93. Your problem seems to be that the Pope does not share your priorities

Let me tell you one of the great secrets: The world does not revolve around you. You whine about compartmentalizing, while doing exactly that.

Yes, he did not come out for gay rights. But because of that, you cannot give him credit for what he has said.

[theHandpuppet]

94. Wrong

The Pope has NOT come out for gay rights (or equal right rights for women). Stop circulating that PR lie. I'm sick of it.

Ah yes, I was expecting the word "whine" to show up any post now, as it usually does when someone happens to being up the issues of rights for women and gays. I'm only surprised you didn't ask me if I wanted a pony.

As for priorities... if I am to be faulted for criticizing Francis for not supporting equal human rights, have at it. I've already explained that one in a manner that should be sufficient for you. As for compartmentalizing , I think Francis takes the prize for that one.

Let me know when you come up with an actual response to my post.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

100. Whoop-de-hairy-do!

As I said, you refuse to give the Pope credit for speaking on climate change, because he did not come out in favor of gay rights.

And the word "whine" is the correct description of your previous post. You WHINED because the Pope does not have the same priorities as you want him to have. Like many of the atheists here, you are too consumed by hatred of the Catholic Church to give the Pope credit for saying something you actually agree with.

[theHandpuppet]

101. I don't even have to offer you a shovel

You seem to be doing quite well digging yourself into a hole, all by yourself.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

103. Typical atheist response

Declare yourself the winner and refuse to admit to even the possibility of being wrong.

As I keep saying, the Pope says something you actually agree with, but your hatred is such that you cannot give him credit for saying it. You just whine that he didn't say something else as well. And WHINE is the correct word.

[theHandpuppet]

105. What I stated in post #77 stands

If you choose to actually address what I said, refute certain facts within that post or if you simply disagree with my assertion that the belief in and recognition of the basic human rights of all people is the foundation upon which all good works should stand, then we have some basis for debate. If, however, your only response is a string of attacks on me personally, I'll grant you can continue this conversation all by yourself.

[roguevalley]

56. he is working to turn a ship sailing one direction for a thousand

years. It will never be fast enough and big enough. I am glad for him to speak to this. 2 billion people follow him. That can't be bad.

[treestar]

75. He doesn't have any actual political power

He can afford to say anything he wants. Any Pope can. It's not going to affect legislation.

[Kingofalldems]

36. Pure communism.

[Generic Brad]

44. So does this mean the Pope is an un-American racist?

The prophet Pat Sajak seems to think so.

[cleanhippie]

57. While I can appreciate the sentiment, it's another pathetic attempt to make the bible relevant

to modern society.

Using religious scripture as the basis for doing or not doing anything is a terrible idea.


Lets just use facts and reality instead, shall we?

[bearssoapbox]

60. Pope says "Destruction of the planet is a sinful act"

Besides...

"It's where I keep all my stuff."

[TBF]

61. This pope has got it going on -

honestly I think I'd like to replace the House of Reps with hundreds of him.

[theHandpuppet]

62. Wouldn't that be great?

That way, we could rescind a woman's right to choose and all those nasty laws granting any rights to gays.

[TBF]

63. Well you make an excellent point -

I was focused on economics but you are 100% correct. I blame it on not having my coffee yet and stand corrected.

[theHandpuppet]

64. Have one on me

[TBF]

65. That's awesome, thanks :)

[Hekate]

69. Have I mentioned just how much I like this guy? nt

[Cha]

70. Thank you, Pope Francis! Can you imagine.. the Pope acknowledges Global Climate

Change but the teabagger stooges in Congress are making laws so the Pentagon can't talk about it!

mahalo kpete

[flvegan]

71. I look forward to a vegan Pope!

And followers of Jesus Christ that actually are.

Sorry, that made me laugh a bit. Carry on.

[Lunacee_2013]

72. I have to agree with him.

If God (if s/he exists) came down to earth right this second and started giving out gifts, would we then turn around and just destroy them? If not, then why do we treat our planet the same way?

If the republicans really think that earth was a gift from God, then why do so many of them treat it so poorly? Or do they just say that because they don't understand science?

[maced666]

81. Making a Biblical Case is important now-versus normally being made fun of-different now because?

It jives with your side this time? I'm no theological scholar but I don't think that is how the Bible and practicing religions of the Bible works.

[sofa king]

104. So he's declaring Earth "subdued."

Mission accomplished, humans, now lets see if we can move past Genesis.