General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhat is 'misandry'?
Generally, "misandry" refers to the hatred and oppression of men on a genotypic basis.
However, dictionary definitions often fall short, so let's examine what these men have to say:
As sociologist Allan Johnson notes, "misandry" has no place in a male-identified, male-centered world. Moreover, Johnson states: And it takes almost no criticism at all in order for men to feel "bashed," like it's "open season on men." In fact, just saying "male privilege" or "patriarchy" can start eyes rolling and evoke that exasperated sense of "Here we go again. (Allan Johnson, Privilege, power and difference, p. 197)
"Accusations of male bashing and man hating work to discredit feminism because people often confuse men as individuals with men as a dominant and privileged category of people. Given the reality of women's oppression, male privilege, and some men's enforcement of both, it's hardly surprising that EVERY woman should have moments when she resents or even "hates" men. (Allan Johnson, "The gender knot," p. 107)
Both movements (white supremacists and male supremacists) attack women and people of color for playing the victim card because they see white men as the real victims. (Michael Kimmel, "Privilege: A reader," p. 325)
The slightest deviation from male and white centeredness is perceived as a profound loss of privilege. This is why with each tiny step that women and minorities take toward equality, the outcry of white and male supremacists about how "oppressed" white men are has been getting louder.
The conservative backlash is in overdrive to protect their illegitimate, unethical, hierarchal system of privilege. Many White heterosexual men feel "oppressed" and rave about the mythic "misandry."
name not needed
(11,660 posts)quinnox
(20,600 posts)redqueen
(115,103 posts)Response to redqueen (Reply #3)
Post removed
redqueen
(115,103 posts)You seem a little worked up.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)redqueen
(115,103 posts)Your posts in this thread, and many others since then, tell me all I need to know about you.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002894783
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)redqueen
(115,103 posts)and you post links to some offsite nonsense.
Yes, you and the rest of the obsessive stalker club put on quite the show.
Hey, when was the last time that you insisted that "the no means no meme is bullshit "? Here, on DU.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)You were taking his words out of context and I added the context. It's that simple really. If you don't like having your disingenuous comments amended for clarity, then don't make disingenuous comments. Pretty simple stuff really.
If you don't like the data and conclusions that two academic feminists came up with, you should take it up with them. I've noticed you seem to only have a problem with it when I repeat it, and have yet to say one word condemning what they had to say about it, or even so much as acknowledge they studied it at all. Very telling that someone wouldn't even want to discuss their favorite topic studied by no less than two feminists. But to answer your question directly, I reckon it was around the same time your TERF buddies were having the TERF pow-wow over at duckies to hate on the transgender because you guys couldn't do it here anymore after they got the boot. If you think I'm afraid of my comments, you're quite wrong. I have them in my journal for everyone who wants to can review quite easily. Unlike you I stand behind what I say rather than running away from it and pretending it never happened, as if anyone is really going to believe you.
Just sayin'
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)I wasn't the one who brought up Warren Farrell in the first place. You seem to rant about him obsessively and if I dare make one comment correcting your obvious misrepresentations, you have a cow and stalk me endlessly about it for years accusing me of "defending" just because I make a bullshit call. Then you interject said misrepresentations in situations which have absolutely not one iota of relevance all the while actually having the gal to act as if I'm the one stalking you.
And what exactly do every single one of your accusations about Farrell (or me for that matter) amount to? Turns out, pretty much a bucket of warm spit. Anyone who cares to set their wiki to Farrell will find absolutely none of the allegations you've made about him, and it's not as if others who are better than you haven't tried to put them there. You can view the wiki history page and see that once one iota of reason and accountability are injected, those accusations fall like the house of cards they always were. In fact, no-shit real anti-feminists like Phyllis Schlafly are critical of Farrell which can also be found right on the wiki page.
I do agree with you completely here. Mine and your posts do speak for themselves, and anyone who cares to look can find out that really the best you have is misrepresenting other people's viewpoint for what can only be imagined as some game to score rhetorical points. And when your actual comments are laid out in context, without misrepresentation, you just pretend they never happened rather than apologizing to those you've hurt.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)There are some (a handful) of members here that I would say are reflexively manhating. Redqueen is definitely not one of them, not at all.
K&R for a good discussion topic.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)"Accusations of male bashing and man hating work to discredit feminism because people often confuse men as individuals with men as a dominant and privileged category of people. Given the reality of women's oppression, male privilege, and some men's enforcement of both, it's hardly surprising that EVERY woman should have moments when she resents or even "hates" men. (Allan Johnson, "The gender knot," p. 107)
Even when a poster's display, is followed by the obligatory, "Whatttt? I was just kidding!"
niyad
(113,433 posts)gollygee
(22,336 posts)how much more your post says about you than her.
Warpy
(111,286 posts)Insight makes people realize that trying to shut women down is a bad thing. Some men lack it completely. All they know is that some woman has voiced an opinion and no woman is entitled to have one of those.
And no, they are never aware.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)and are meant to score points against feminists and feminism, not to point to a real problem facing men.
Of course, you can prove that your pathetic little accusation was meant honestly by producing comments from that poster demonstrating hatred of men as a group.
CFLDem
(2,083 posts)ROASTED!
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I'm curious.
Response to redqueen (Reply #64)
CFLDem This message was self-deleted by its author.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)just might not appreciate men sending PMs saying how it's cool with them that misogynist slurs are socially acceptable?
Really?
Cause I think you are actually very aware of that being a near certainty.
Response to redqueen (Reply #75)
CFLDem This message was self-deleted by its author.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Response to redqueen (Reply #88)
CFLDem This message was self-deleted by its author.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Response to geek tragedy (Reply #92)
Post removed
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)dear lord, not even subtle any more.
Dorian Gray
(13,496 posts)This is just creepy
(And I'm not a regular poster in any of the fem groups.)
CFLDem
(2,083 posts)Dorian Gray
(13,496 posts)CFLDem
(2,083 posts)But I meant the whole situation.
Response to CFLDem (Reply #118)
A-Schwarzenegger This message was self-deleted by its author.
Squinch
(50,957 posts)noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)And your creepy posts.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)JTFrog
(14,274 posts)Some time away might be good for your perspective. I doubt it, but crazier things have happened.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)Also can be construed as harassment. You probably should stop trying to contact posters in this thread privately. Nice job, though. You and a few others have perfectly demonstrated exactly what the OP is about
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)We are not oppressed and I don't get how some men think we are.
niyad
(113,433 posts)persecuted THEY are.
Raksha
(7,167 posts)As a Jew who likes to frequent interfaith discussion boards I hear plenty of the "persecuted Christian" bullshit. It gets more barf-inducing with each repetition.
Warpy
(111,286 posts)White males as a group have been oppressed over the last 40 years by having their manufacturing and farming jobs disappear and their wages severely depressed. The only reason women are now earning 77% of what men do instead of 59% is because men have lost so much purchasing power over the last 40 years of wage depression.
White males are definitely being oppressed but it's not by women. It's by other white males.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)White males as a group are NOT oppressed, as the class necessarily includes those "other white males."
A more accurate, but still off base, statement would be, "Working class people, including working class white males, have been oppressed over the last 400+ years."
Warpy
(111,286 posts)but wage depression has disproportionately hit white males. Other groups didn't have that far to fall and have taken less of a cut as a percentage of earnings before liberals went out of power.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)You are confusing "men as individuals" with "men as a class".
redqueen
(115,103 posts)nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Must be that extreme binary thinking I'm always complaining about.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)And claim it is all about class. Hint: these folk are not people of color.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)Of privilege. I remember when Bill Cosby made his stupid remarks about (some) black people. Some people actually lectured ME about going to school and getting a job and stop blaming the white man, etc. it happened right here on DU. Alert, you say? HA! Didn't do much good. I got them to shut by posting my credentials: BA and MA, both from private colleges, and asking for their. CRICKETS!
Squinch
(50,957 posts)"allowed" to compete with them in the workplace.
What white men see as oppression occurring over the last 40 years is simply a condition in which the advantages they hold over other groups are somewhat fewer. They still have those advantages, but they are fewer.
That's not called oppression. That's called holding a deck that is stacked slightly less in your favor.
Warpy
(111,286 posts)that was nearly double what everybody else was paid. They're still trying to cling grimly to the social privilege, but it's going fast.
dawg
(10,624 posts)There are probably some bitter women out there who hate all men and are prejudiced against them.
But it's still one of those man-bites-dog things that rarely ever happens. Certainly, it's nowhere near the misogyny prevalent in our society today.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)create problems. Many misogynists or male chauvanists are in a position to impose their positions on other and do a far amount of harm, and that's before you get the unthinking assumption of many white males that they way they like things is the way things ought to be.
Where as misandrists or female chauvanists have relatively little power in society - almost no power really.
Bryant
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)to this passage of the OP:
As it is relevant to both of your comments.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)saying the same thing, as those they are siding with, but they are missing a huge point.
BTW ... I am so biting my tongue on this topic, as there are so many comparisons to the white privilege threads.
spooky3
(34,461 posts)I think a lot of us would be interested.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)proving Johnson's point.
niyad
(113,433 posts)nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)And one particularly clueless poster who hijacked the thread.
niyad
(113,433 posts)redqueen
(115,103 posts)Not quite there yet.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)What is-
Eating a Ghost Chili Pepper
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)a lot better than I did when I chewed on a habanero.
I ended up on the floor without having to be kicked in the balls.
Warpy
(111,286 posts)A tiny slice will make a whole pot of chili too hot for people who aren't used to chile peppers. Two slices make it almost hot enough for me. Three slices are about right.
Then I'm stuck with half a habanero and no place to use it.
I usually use jalapenos for taste and serranos for heat. I'll leave the habaneros to the show offs.
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers, it's still gonna hurt.[/center][/font][hr]
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)tkmorris
(11,138 posts)Funny thing though, I happen to think true misogyny is rarer than a lot of people think. I think what most often is labeled misogyny is usually rather a profound lack of respect shown by some men towards women. They seem incapable of considering them as equals.
tea and oranges
(396 posts)Seems like textbook def of misogyny to me:
...a profound lack of respect shown by some men towards women. They seem incapable of considering them as equals.
dickthegrouch
(3,176 posts)It becomes clear that the very existence of (mostly male) armed forces is an all-too common (and forgotten) form of misandry, mostly perpetrated by men.
I know I am ignoring that women have increasingly become part of the armed forces over the last 50 years.
Men have classically started wars, funded wars, created armies, trained them to peaks of fitness (and attractiveness), and then sent them to die horribly. What could be more man-hating than that?
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)I think some make the mistake of leaning too hard on the literal dictionary definition.
Think of homophobes saying "What homophobia? I'm not afraid of teh gheys!"
Please note that I'm not calling you (or anyone else) a bigot here. Just trying to draw an analogy.
bloom
(11,635 posts)It is a concept that should be understood by anyone who considers themselves to be progressive.
If you don't understand it, you should make an effort to change that.
People should understand that we are all part of a culture that favors men throughout our education and in the media. If you merely take what you learned/learn for granted, then you will not have a very comprehensive viewpoint of the world. (That can, of course, apply to women, as well).
For instance, the way (at least back in my youth) women were excluded from history, by and large - with a couple exceptions such as Florence Nightengale. I am still adding to my knowledge of amazing women and I feel like I was robbed of a reasonable vision of my gender.
Notice how the day that women received the right to vote is not celebrated, just the day that white men demanded that right.
Consider movies - so many with the token woman. Women as arm candy and rewards, not as people. I hardly watch mainstream movies anymore - fortunately, there are independent movies and foreign movies that have more of a clue about this. Then, of course there is the world of advertisements. And all of the patriarchal religions.
If you continue to be a clueless man, spend some time imagining you are a woman, perhaps try to write from the viewpoint of a woman. You will be a better person for it. Read Ms. mag online, and other resources that are from the point of view of feminist women.
What exactly are you proposing should be added to the forum rules? That there be no complaints of misandry? That it is essentially a thing which does not exist? I'm just a clueless man - help me out here.
Phlem
(6,323 posts)But I see here it legally exists when typed out.
Yes, I'm being serious.
Could be construed as disrespect. I use it as a "I can't wait to see the posts" but I can see how it could be misconstrued as disrespect.
-p
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)excringency
(105 posts)... A.) a rationalization that attempts to justify, vindicate, and evade one's responsibility as a cog in the dominant patriarchy, B.) an alibi to mitigates one's failings, C.) an immense band-aid used by weak minds to cover their butt-hurt.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)You have a way with words, I must say. And I love your sigline too.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Gore1FL
(21,132 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)large degree of overlap between the complainers of both ephemeral 'problems'
bullwinkle428
(20,629 posts)Christians/Jews/Muslims.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)who manage to nail themselves to the cross of self-proclaimed victimhood with the greatest of ease?
Gore1FL
(21,132 posts)you are at least as good at it as conservative Christian, heterosexual, white men.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)I'm not whining about reverse racism, or misandry, or having my religious freedom oppressed by gay marriage.
That's something only you and yours do.
Gore1FL
(21,132 posts)Gore1FL
(21,132 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)who pretend to be victims of misandry much like Megyn Kelly and Fox News tried to pretend that white people were the victims of the New Black Panther Party.
So, it's a success for me.
Gore1FL
(21,132 posts)nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Gore1FL
(21,132 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)since it's based on a subjective evaluation and opinion rather than empirically-demonstrable fact, unlike say the failure of floor joists or beams in a structure.
You have provided no criteria by which to ascertain how one is supposed to succeed and fail in this discussion.
If the metric is whether one has failed or succeeded in agreeing with you and your crowd, well then failure is the goal of every enlightened person here on the subject of gender.
Gore1FL
(21,132 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)go ahead and type fail again, or maybe just say it to yourself as you're the only one who believes it.
toodles.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)Very convincing argument
Gore1FL
(21,132 posts)noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)My smilie is a more cogent thought than your word. Epic FAIL!
oldhippie
(3,249 posts)...when you are trying to reframe a term.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)Please, watch "The Bro Code." Try to understand white male privilege, without getting defensive as though you are being personally attacked.
oldhippie
(3,249 posts).... but no.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)I'm not trying to insult you, I'm asking you in all honesty, as a fellow man.
oldhippie
(3,249 posts)Zorra
(27,670 posts)"The slightest deviation from male and white centeredness is perceived as a profound loss of privilege. This is why with each tiny step that women and minorities take toward equality, the outcry of white and male supremacists about how "oppressed" white men are has been getting louder.
The conservative backlash is in overdrive to protect their illegitimate, unethical, hierarchal system."
Bravo, redqueen.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Men here are highly respected.
There is no misandry here.
In fact DU is just full of love for each other; as we struggle against the machine.
ProfessorGAC
(65,082 posts)The only nit i have to pick is:
I don't care for people deciding for others what a definition is when there's already a definition.
The sentiment is hard to argue, and to me it's just a word. I've never experienced it, but i'm sure there are people who hate men for just being men.
No skin off my back though. I seriously doubt it will ever affect me like the opposite word being debated here for a couple weeks affects its target.
GAC
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I don't care for people deciding for others what a definition is when there's already a definition.
As a "Professor" (in an academic area, I presume), are you resistant to the evolution of terms, that comes with a better understanding of the subject matter, in your field of study?
ProfessorGAC
(65,082 posts)I said i agree with the sentiment. And, if you see this as an evolutionary affect, ok. I see it as one person redefining the term.
I also said it was just a nit.
And yes and no; for years i taught organic chemistry. I don't anymore. The screenname is an artifcact of the early days of the internet where we all got email addresses at the school and it was ProfessorXXX@ etc. The XXX's were people's initials.
You sure you actually read what i wrote? You jump on the nit and miss the fact that my post title says i'm ok with it.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)It's NOT just one person redefining the term ... the redefinition is the state of the study.
Yes ... I read your entire post and I apologize if I offended, it's just I see so many using the "Redefining of the term" argument (whether as a "nit" or an active objection) that I have to speak up and correct the inaccuracy.
It is this uncorrected inaccuracy, that allows the argument to persist as legitimate, whether you, personally, are okay with the term or not.
ProfessorGAC
(65,082 posts)What's the difference?
Oh, i already know the answer, but it's not one you'd admit to.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)in a thread attempting to expose the need to change the status quo, "picking a nit", then yes ... the nit be picked.
Please share then.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I did provide two sources. I could find dozens more.
Sociology is a well developed field of study and this concept isn't new.
ProfessorGAC
(65,082 posts)Are you so wrapped up in your position that you can't stand minor scrutiny? My post was titled "I'm Ok With This"
Why is that so hard to get?
I just don't agree with the defintion of the term in favorable terms to the person making the defintion. I disagree with that tactic when conservatives do it too. I've been saying that here for years.
At least i'm being consistent.
And, all that being said, again i'm agreeing with the sentiment. Misandry is NEVER going to affect me, so it's just a word to me. It has no meaning to my life and it never has, so i'm ok with the idea that it's not really the oppostite of misogyny. I get that.
I'm agreeing with you and your picking on the nit i picked. When did agreement in concept stop being an alliance?
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)argument. "I agree with you, but..." is frequently an underhanded way of undermining a given idea.
But I agree that you yourself don't deserve to be tarred with that brush.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)The only part of your post that I had any issue with was this:
I guess my attempt to clarify that is somehow a big enough problem for you to get upset about.
librechik
(30,674 posts)tea and oranges
(396 posts)The perception of victimhood by privileged classes is more than tiresome. It seems the more privilege they have, the louder they yell about their persecution.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)the larger the privilege, the larger the perceived loss, when/if equality is ever realized.
trekbiker
(768 posts)know or even care what the word "mysandry" means. We generally dont even think about it.
what do a LOT of men care about?
the fucked up family court system
no fault divorce
lifetime alimony
I personally know many men that will not be able to retire because of these things. They will work till they drop. They are slaves to the system.
http://judgybitch.com/2013/09/17/what-would-happen-if-no-men-showed-up-for-work-today/
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I suspect that this will not go well; but, why is "no fault divorce" a matter of concern?
If she/he don't want you no more ... she/he don't want you no more.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)However, given that reality, and the flip-side of it, why even have marriage contracts in the first place?
All it seems to do is present the opportunity for the government to deny that contract, often on an arbitrary and capricious basis, and enrich lawyers when it comes time for dissolution. The whole idea seems to have outlived its usefulness and if they didn't exist today, I doubt anyone would invent them.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)void contracts.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)marriage. Sure, I might get married myself someday, if I meet the right woman. But regardless, I see where you're coming from.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)I've been married myself for decades.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Which is not a libertarian or "small government" argument, but simply an argument against over-complication, and waste of time and resources, if that makes sense.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Really?
As for family court, this is my go-to reference
http://www.salon.com/2009/11/05/mens_rights/
There is SO MUCH more out there detailing why this issue is not exactly the way it has been presented by MRAs.
Alimony goes both ways.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Thank you for that. Helps put things in perspective.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)It is critical that we depend on facts and not stories from people about how unfair things were forty years ago in family courts.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)The misogynists and rightwingers are decloaking left and right on this one.
P.S. judgybitch.com is a woman-hating misogynist hate site, thanks for outing yourself
Here's a sample:
more:
.......
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I bristled at the URL for that site, but with so many feminists 'reclaiming' the word I figured he was throwing one of those at me.
Fuh king hell
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)the author of that blog is proof that there are female misogynists
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)...
Learn how to cook Seriously, its not that hard. Get a cookbook and get at er. A key part of controlling your own weight will be to cook your own food. Ladies, there is nothing, and I mean nothing that will convey love and care quite like a good meal. There is no excuse for the tee-hee arent I a useless twat in the kitchen cultural trope that women think men find adorable.
...
Dont get a divorce. Unless you dont have kids, in which case do whatever the fuck you want. But if you have children, divorce should be off the table except in cases of severe and extreme abuse. Divorce will not make you happy, and it will destroy your children. You will teach them that there are NO obligations, NO responsibilities and NO moral lines that should not be crossed. You will fail in your most basic responsibility as a parent if you destroy your childrens family. Whatever the issue is that you are facing, find some way to deal with it that doesnt include divorce. A sexless marriage? That is what prostitutes are for. He doesnt pay attention to you? Surround yourself with friends who DO. He doesnt share your interests? Find some friends who DO. He doesnt help out enough around the house? Hire someone or lower your standards. There is always a way. All predicated on the assumption that you will act like a fucking grown-up and not get in fights or altercations with your spouse in front of your children, or at any time, really.
...
Single ladies, stop being sluts! Married ladies, please carry on! Very few men like sluts. If youre the sort of lady who doesnt give a shit what men think or what they like, then please carry on, this doesnt apply to you. Im speaking to women who DO like men, who WANT to have a man who loves them and lives for them, forever. Ladies, you have been lied to. Being a slut, sampling a lot of dicks with no commitment and no affection, and letting men use you is NOT empowering. It does not give you power. It reduces your power in the sexual marketplace, which already skewed heavily in favor of men, thanks to slut culture. If you are serious about finding a partner and a husband and a best friend who will walk through life with you, then you need to learn how to compete with sluts. Heres how:
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Raksha
(7,167 posts)The timing couldn't be better, although I had no way of knowing that when I ordered it.
Raksha
(7,167 posts)What does a woman get out of running down other women like that? Does it make her feel more important or what?
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Within certain circles, yes, it does. These women are the Clarence Thomases of the MRA "movement."
gollygee
(22,336 posts)including "misandry" and what site came up?
http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/family-courts/defending-marriage/
Yes, at A Voice For Men, it appears opposing no-fault divorce is a big issue.
This is a new one for me. I'm trying to think if my MRA brother ever mentioned no-fault divorce to me but I'll have to casually mention it when I can and see what happens.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)by being so brazen about outing themselves.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)JoeyT
(6,785 posts)Apparently removing that "right" means you hate men.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)IronLionZion
(45,465 posts)bullwinkle428
(20,629 posts)KauaiK
(544 posts)Kudos - well stated with references.
cer7711
(502 posts)However, to simply hand-wave away all anti-men comments/workplace behavior/double standards as "mythical" violates my sense of reality, semantic logic and life-lived experience.
But don't listen to me; I'm a man. A self-identifying feminist white male. (GASP!)
Here what Dr. Peggy Drexler has to say on the subject:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/peggy-drexler/who-says-women-arent-sexi_b_3331315.html
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)J/K
I don't have a boat.
11 Bravo
(23,926 posts)in the workplace.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)now on keyboard..
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)Scott6113
(56 posts)As a male survivor of an abusive marriage, I need to say that there is nothing more isolating that the invalidation of the suffering I experienced just because it doesn't fit gender role expectations. In fact, there are women who use the expectation that they are often the abused to their advantage.
I know of one man who was jailed because his wife calmly held her hand over a lit gas stove, burning her hand, called the cops and said her husband held it over the stove. His story was summarily rejected. She knew what she was doing. She was a borderline.
I'll never excuse prejudice, bigotry or hatred of any group just because they aren't generally perceived as victims. They can be victimized more easily because people don't expect it.
Let us not judge anyone due to the color of their skin, but the content of their character, to paraphrase MLK. Let us likewise not judge due to the kind of reproductive equipment a person happens to have.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)I'll take "urban myths popular amongst seething misogynist trolls for $800 Alex!"
Scott6113
(56 posts)Because it was disclosed to me in confidence. But, do you really think the female gender is incapable of evil? I mean Mata Hari? Tokyo Rose? Susan Smith? Aileen Wuornos?
You can say that their numbers dwarf the number of depraved males, but that's a corollary to my point. When we attribute characteristics to groups, it can get used to the advantage of the diabolical. If women are generally perceived as gentle, nurturing, and good, it provides cover to those who aren't. I mean, Father Geoghan would never have done half what he did if he were not a priest. He would have been caught much earlier. Just that, in the 60s, we actually revered priests.
If you think my story is a myth, try and prove it. No more likely than the opposite. I trust my confidante. You don't have to. But to not admit the possibility is willful blindness.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)there and hold her hand over an open flame while chewing gum and reading the morning paper.
Your story is not credible.
Scott6113
(56 posts)If you've never known anyone who was perfectly willing to damage him/herself simply to get revenge, to make you look like the culprit you're lucky. I have not been so lucky.
The woman was perfectly calm. She was even smiling. To her it was a show of strength, of victory.
Again, you're lucky.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Your story is bullshit, a fable, a myth, a lie.
Perfectly calm while the flesh in her hand was being roasted like a piece of meat on a BBQ grill?
Sounds like you were there, which makes one wonder what your role really was.
Get out of here with that shit. No, just get out of here.
'Men' like you who go around trying to portray domestic violence victims as a bunch of fakers make me sick to my stomach.
Repulsive.
Scott6113
(56 posts)Just bringing out details.
Where is your hostility coming from?
First you say it never happened, they you wonder if I was there. Which is it?
Of course people with mental problems act out in dysfunctional ways.
Mental illness crosses every kind of group, every kind of person.
I never said that domestic violence victims are fakers. Perhaps this point is too subtle for you.
Let me try again.
Conventional wisdom has it that wives are more often physically harmed than husbands. Certainly the reported statistics support that. I suspect that it is actually true. Upper body strength is a gender difference. I know that women can train and be much stronger than the average man. I'm just talking averages here. Women in my experience are more articulate, and men act out more often, though that too is a generalization.
And what do the social service and police functions proceed on? They perceive a situation according to their experience.
That leaves room for someone to work the police's prejudices to their favor, if they are diabolical.
It does stretch the mind to imagine a scenario that does not fit stereotypes. If you don't want your mind stretched, I understand. Few do.
I remember a radio interview about domestic violence with a state director of social services. She said it goes in every direction: grown daughter against mother, elder abuse, she has seen it all. If you think wife beating is the only thing going on, I would like to disillusion you.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)if your finger touches hot water, your spinal cord reflexes will zip the hand away before your brain will process it.
if one barbecues their hand over an open flame like a sirloin steak, it would take extreme concentration and complete discipline to hold the hand there while the flesh sizzled, the subcutaneous fat melted, and the smell filled the room.
the idea that a woman would sit there with her hand over the flame, smiling, calm, to be able to claim a false act of domestic violence, is horseshit.
If that is what it takes to convince police that there has been an act of domestic violence, then the system is stacked against women
Scott6113
(56 posts)Not 3rd degree burns. Yes, she'd have to fight reflexes. I suspect the smile was more of a grimace, but that's what he said. Smile. Human beings are quite amazing. Think of the fakirs who lie on beds of nails, or the people who fire walk.
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)The fakirs who rely on basic physics. Force downwards on a single nail drives it through the skin. Force downwards on a thousand nails makes the pressure 1/1000th less on each nail. There's videos of people on a board of nails with another on top getting sledgehammered. Look it up. As for firewalkers, they move quickly enough that their skin doesn't burn. The coals are also specially prepared so they don't burn their feet. It's not magic.
I think my point is this: your story is full of holes. Your level of knowledge about this supposed incident is constantly changing, and complete crap as far as the burn goes. Maybe I'm wrong. Prove it to me and I'll apologize.
For now, I'm going to assume you're one of the typical people who distract and deflect from the real problems at hand. Yes, there are men abused in our legal system, and yes, there are men being harmed elsewhere. But there are things far worse and with simply staggering frequency happening to women, everywhere. There are massive cultural and other blocks women have to overcome. To come and try to deflect from that, to try and tell women that their systematic suffering is somehow equivalent to that of relatively few men?
I'm calling bullshit.
With perserverance and lot of work, we'll be able to fix a lot of society's gender problems. But people like you deflect and minimize. They block progress. They hurt people, if indirectly. And I can't stand it.
Scott6113
(56 posts)We disagree less than you might think. The big picture shows that women have it worse than men. I wasn't trying to say otherwise. I was trying to say that when we look at generalities, particulars get lost. Acting as though outliers do not exist creates injustice.
I remember in the 70s there was a billboard up near Fenway Park in Boston. It showed a glowering Ayatollah Khomeini with the caption: Fight Back: Drive 55. And I thought, ah, so we have been given permission to hate the Arab, the Muslim. It was no longer politically correct to tell n-word jokes, Pollack jokes, etc., but a certain kind of person always needs a scapegoat, an other, a stranger, someone different to blame.
That's what's wrong. And there are lots of women who make nasty comments about men as a group. They're angry, they defame, they denigrate. Defamation leads to dehumanization, then real harm. I've met female divorce lawyers who had a bad relationship, and for the rest of their lives were hell-bent on making all men pay. It is not OK. Somehow they think feminism gives them the right to think of men the way blacks were considered 75 years ago. Are they the majority? No.
No it is not equivalent to what women have suffered. Two wrongs don't make a right, however. There is a better way, a higher way. If women displace men in social position, and treat men as they were treated, where is the progress in that?
Wouldn't it be better to correct sexism and all that goes with it like lesser pay without the old winner-loser paradigm?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)proceed, once that's out of the way, to write several paragraphs about how women are hateful persecutrices of men.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)gollygee
(22,336 posts)I might have to put that in another thread I just saw. Or save it for the next time MLK's message is deliberately misinterpreted and misused to excuse racism.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Scott6113
(56 posts)Would you think it as funny if the woman had a chair thrown at her so hard it knocked her over for making an obnoxious comment? If not why not? Is violence against men funny? Is violence against anyone funny?
You can find your own bias by a simple gender swap.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Tee hee!! My sides!!! Hurts to laugh so hard!!!
You just did this.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Scott6113
(56 posts)You really are making my point. It is not OK to take anyone who merely questions some aspects of feminism and consider violence against them funny, ridicule them, and call them equivalent to Rush Limbaugh, the most sexist person around.
Does bona fide misandry exist? Yes. Is the term misused so the privileged can cry victim, yes. Is it as big a problem as sexism? Far from it. Should we railroad over small problems to fix big ones? Doesn't seem optimal.
Above all, it is not OK to hate.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I thought this was just a game you were playing. After the weird lie about a woman holding her hand over a flame calmly while she burned just to get back at a man for 'something', i knew you could not be serious. I mean, really? I have been burned by a water heater on my back and i jumped five feet and screamed bloody murder, that was before i passed out from shock. So, if you want to have a bit of fun, i figured i'd play along for a second.
Are you ready to admit you made that story up or that the person who told you that was lying?
Or at least admit it was a joke?
Scott6113
(56 posts)Like I said. I know it to be true but can't offer proof, so you can think what you want. Of course if you are surprised by pain reflexes take over. There's a devout Christian Scientist woman who does office work for a Dentist I had before he went on disability. When she needs a filling she refuses novocaine. She says she can control her mind and does not feel the pain, so she claims. I'm skeptical, but I do believe the Dentist that she gets work done without novocaine.
The point of the story is that if you only work with generalities, there are always situations that don't fit.
Putin in Abhazia had his own people killed in a way that he could blame the insurgents as a pretext for invasion. That's the way evil thinks.
Divorce Courts almost always award custody to the mother. There are some women who are unfit to be mothers. The fathers sometimes stay in awful marriages to protect the children, for fear they cannot prove the abuse in divorce court, and divorce will mean the children stay with the abuser without protection. Maybe they could prove it, but it is an uphill battle at best, and they're not willing to take the chance. They're in a special kind of hell. That's how operating on prejudice leads to injustice.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)These are talking points used by misogynistic groups. If you need proof i will pm you links to research. I do not respond to these types of talking points because they are used for foul purposes like demonizing women and denying misogyny. That is why you are getting a negative reaction, we have heard different versions of the same story and yours has extraordinary claims. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Or at least quite a bit of proof, not just an extraordinary anecdote.
Your story does not make physical sense or logical sense.
Treating people like individuals. It really is that simple.
Squinch
(50,957 posts)trekbiker
(768 posts)This is DU, home of the shrill. Dont expect any sympathy for the male perspective here.
I barely escaped a similar situation with a borderline woman. Luckily the damage was minimal even though the stress was incredible. It was a real eye opener. I still to this day cant talk about it with my sister or mother, they have no understanding at all and still believe that womans bullshit. Time is a healer thank god.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)be,
Given your description of this place as "home of the shrill" and your citation of woman-hating websites to back up your material, I have to say that it still means your perpsective is still not welcome here.
Also, if you "barely escaped a similar situation witha borderline woman" why were you whining about no-fault divorce in another thread (something only rightwing knuckledraggers and seething old school misogynists complain about):
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5012928
the fucked up family court system
no fault divorce
lifetime alimony
I personally know many men that will not be able to retire because of these things. They will work till they drop. They are slaves to the system.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Assuming he was abused by a mentally ill woman, which certainly does happen, but is hardly as ubiquitous as the MRA types like to imply.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)past relationships, given his citation to anti-women hate sites and extreme rightwing views on divorce and his description of DU as "home of the shrill."
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)chervilant
(8,267 posts)Are you angry at all women, or just your abuser?
And: "Dont expect any sympathy for the male perspective here."
Really? Do you honestly believe that? If so, why are you a member of this forum?
(Calling feminists "shrill" is an example of misogyny...)
opiate69
(10,129 posts)And calling people butt buddies is an example of homophobia.
IronLionZion
(45,465 posts)I'm a survivor of an abusive sociopath. It's not because of feminism, or equal opportunities, protections, and pay. It's because she seriously failed at human decency 101. Some deranged individuals just want to hurt people.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Of course there are far too many male DV victims - and I am genuinely sorry about what happened to you - but blaming that on "feminism" (even implicitly) is so far beyond disingenuous it scarcely deserves a response.
IronLionZion
(45,465 posts)nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)as possible, or so I'd like to think. My occasional abrasiveness notwithstanding.
intaglio
(8,170 posts)Secondly this has flock all to do with misandry
Thirdly, I wonder who was doing the abusing in your marriage (if it existed)
Fourthly, that tale of false accusation has as much believability as the old "Honestly, officer, she tripped and fell downstairs!"
Raksha
(7,167 posts)Re "The slightest deviation from male and white centeredness is perceived as a profound loss of privilege. This is why with each tiny step that women and minorities take toward equality, the outcry of white and male supremacists about how "oppressed" white men are has been getting louder."
Does this EVER need to be said! And the louder and clearer and more often, the better.
quinnox
(20,600 posts)it would be for keeping the popcorn smiley.
I am truly outraged by even the mere suggestion!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Somebody gets it.
Banning the rofl smiley is also a problem. It can get you a hide. I don't know why.
Have some of mine, it's better.(because i'm a woman j/k)
valerief
(53,235 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)So that every misogyny story must have a matching misandry story.
Prophet 451
(9,796 posts)but is pretty rare. I hang on a lot on "Fundies Say The Darnedest Things" and we occasionally have quotes submitted from whackadoodle extreme feminists that qualify as misandry. It's pretty rare though.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Because if they don't hide it, maybe it will be taken away!
"The slightest deviation from male and white centeredness is perceived as a profound loss of ..... privilege."
Great OP- thank you!
Scott6113
(56 posts)That men claiming oppression just because their level of privilege is diminished is obnoxious. It should be ridiculed. The point I was trying to make is that there is such a thing a male abuse. Just because it is more rare than other forms doesn't mean it doesn't exist. So this crying wolf about being a victim just because you're less of a victor makes it all the more difficult to use the term properly, and to treat it as an actual problem. Not as big as others, perhaps, but still there, still valid.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)Why is it that if a nonwhite nonmale group of people get rights, so many MRAs feel that they have to give their rights up for that to happen? It is not as if there are a limited number of rights to go around. There is no reason why everyone cannot have equal rights.
flashbang
(18 posts)...because the concept of water finding its level eludes them?
Some water molecules have brains. These brains think, while in the Clouds, "I shall always be a cloud, above those
waters down there. Me and my bro's just a floatin' around."
Then the hydrologic cycle kicks in.
"Oh. Well, at least I'm landing in the top of a mountain."
As they trickle to the expansive ocean ahead, they ride next to other water types. Some don't speak cloud boys language anymore.
Other have no memory of cloudiness. But they all speak of equality in a vast ocean, then taking another turn, maybe at a great height.
Cloud boy doesn't like this one bit. He's used to Above. He was made for Above. But he senses that his own desire is not as relevant to the other waters as he thinks it should be. He doesn't want to 'blend' into some big ocean where he's not unique. So he cries and cries.
In fact, he becomes so annoying that the Sun, sitting Above, hears him, contemplates his return to the top of the cycle, and burns him up for good.
His presence is not missed. He is not mourned.
So listen little cloud boys, 'the circle of life' might frighten you but fighting it just makes you sound childish and petty. People aren't going to stand aside so you can dominate the playground forever. The other children want a turn too.
And the Adults are not asking YOU to go down so much as RISING TO your 'level'. Got it? Cause I ain't got anymore dumb stories to explain basic chit you should've wrapped your head around when you turned 18. Denying the system is set up by and for white males is beyond cognitive dissonance. It's just a tantrum.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)Over-inflated sense of self-importance...sense of supetiority...and a deep sense of inferiority. just my guesses
redqueen
(115,103 posts)The reason some men get sucked into it is they enjoy sexual objectification and do not want to lose that perk.
The Traveler
(5,632 posts)At the age of 58 I have run into real, honest to gawd misandry 2, maybe 3 times. In that same period I have known hundreds of feminists. That would include my own mother and three sisters, who were certainly not guilty of misandry.
My point is that misandry is real, and if you look hard enough for it you will certainly find it operating somewhere. It is not influential, and it does not represent the views or feelings of the vast majority of women who are active in the effort to secure women's rights. Nor do I think you are afflicted with that particular issue, as others in this thread have implied. I find that absurd, actually.
Accusing feminists of misandry is a familiar conservative canard. Pretending that white male privilege does not operate in our society is silly, but equally familiar. And while I am white, and I am male, and I certainly feel pressured, neither women nor people of color bear any responsibility for my difficulties. Nor are my difficulties made worse by their achievement of equality. The effort to make me feel otherwise about it is real, though, and essential to those who have an interest in taking my eyes off the real problems, and the set of people who are really causing them.
Trav