What a cruel, male-dominated culture! (Malcolm Evans cartoon, 2011)

[closeupready]

I thought this was interesting food for thought.

[SummerSnow]

1. Very interesting.Thanks for sharing.

[closeupready]

2. Very welcome.

[Malone]

26. ..

Part of that is a human nature thing where people are defensive of their own family/country/culture when questioned by someone outside of it. It's the "I can call my dad a drunk, but you can't" situation. They don't want to admit their flaws to western culture, but may discuss it amongst themselves.

[DesertDiamond]

4. I wonder if women in midEastern countries would really make that assumption.

Possibly some of them would, while others would think, "I wish I could be that free." They would get that women who live in cultures where bikinis are allowed are doing so because they enjoy wearing bikinis, it feels good and it feels freeing, and if they look great ina bikini then they can enjoy that, but it's necessarily not to please men. Speaking for myself, and my belief is that I speak for a lot of women, although men may think everything we do is about them, that's actually their delusion.

[nomorenomore08]

7. It's about individual perception, not necessarily reality.

Of course women - in most respects at least - have it far better in the West. But a Muslim woman, within her own cultural context, may not see it that way. Then of course, like all human beings, her perspective is limited by her individual experience of the world.

[nomorenomore08]

11. I see what you're saying. And I do agree the equivalency is a stretch at best.

Just considering the fact that what we see as "liberating," others in a different context may not.

[Jim Lane]

18. No, the cartoonist is depicting the women's differing perspectives

It's not an equivalence between a society that allows bikinis and another that requires burqas. That would be false. Instead, the equivalence is that each woman thinks her own attitude is the natural one. Each woman further thinks that the other woman's attitude is unnatural, purely a product of culture.

Of course, there is a genuine underlying equivalence -- each woman is right in thinking that the other one's style of dress and her attitude toward choice of dress are shaped by culture.

I'm reminded of Marx's famous statement (using "men" in the generic sense): "It is not consciousness of men that determines their being, but, on the contrary, their social being that determines their consciousness."

In a commentary on this passage, Erich Fromm wrote:

In the first place, it should be noted that Marx, like Spinoza and later Freud, believed that most of what men consciously think is "false" consciousness, is ideology and rationalization; that the true mainsprings of man's actions are unconscious to him. According to Freud, they are rooted in man's libidinal strivings; according to Marx, they are rooted in the whole social organization of man which directs his consciousness in certain directions. and blocks him from being aware of certain facts and experiences.

These two women have been shaped by their societies to hold certain beliefs. Each can see that in the other. For each of them, as for almost all of us, it is harder to see that in oneself.

[Jim Lane]

25. It was 100 degrees 100 years ago but no woman in this country would have publicly shown so much skin

What changed? Was it, by any chance, the culture?

I'm not contending that all cultural norms are purely bourgeois illusions. Back at the link I gave, Fromm quotes Marx: ""The production of ideas, of conceptions, of consciousness, is at first directly interwoven with the material activity and the material intercourse of men, the language of real life." I doubt he was thinking specifically of swimwear but, based on that statement, I don't think he'd be surprised to learn that most women don't like burqas at the beach.

[closeupready]

14. Your expected response, like clockwork.

The perfect foil, and I thank you.

[lame54]

9. I'm not aware of a law that makes the girl on the left dress like that

[closeupready]

13. But there ARE Western laws prohibiting the hijab.

Because, lawmakers say patronizingly, we know that no woman who wears one is doing so because they want to.

[closeupready]

20. In France, there sure is. Also in Turkey if I recall correctly.

I'm not an expert in international law, but even I know those two for starters - there's probably more. Russia, perhaps?

[ismnotwasm]

10. And the irony is palpable

Because it's exactly correct.

[nomorenomore08]

12. I see it as being something like, the distinction we make between "free" and "unfree" societies

isn't quite so cut-and-dried in reality.

[ismnotwasm]

28. Well yes

Well put

[William769]

16. kick & recommended.

[Nye Bevan]

22. The woman on the right would face severe punishment for dressing like the woman on the left.

She would probably be accosted and physically attacked. Maybe even stoned to death.

The woman on the left could dress like the woman on the right without any repercussions.

[nomorenomore08]

29. Western society still has "punishments" for stepping out of line.

They just aren't so overt (or bloody) in most cases.

[Gravitycollapse]

30. This is a commentary on self-regulation of hegemonic masculinity...

And not on the objective consequences of either side not participating in normative performance.

The point of this is not to equate the laws of either culture with each other but to define the underlying reasons for women lacking personal autonomy. The joke in this (the horrifying absurdity, really) is that each woman judges and thus regulates the other using the "morals" of the ruling order. They are middle managers for male dominance.

[nomorenomore08]

32. There's also a sense of "Freedom is doing things *my* way!" without regard for difference of opinion

or, indeed, cultural difference. A form of myopia unfortunately common to all human societies.

Also shows why "morals" (as opposed to ethics) are repressive bullshit, and invariably rooted in such.

[Rex]

31. A to O - one lives in a secular society and the other is controlled by religious fundamentalists.

I will let you guess as to which one is which. The lady on the left might be religious, the lady on the right MUST be religious or will face possible torture.

[Squinch]

33. Nonsense. I - me, myself - get to choose whether I wear a bikini or a space suit.

No one else can legally force me. No man can beat me on the street if I am not covered up or if I am not wearing what he wants me to wear. No one can require that I can't drive a car or go outside without a male relative. In my culture, if I am out alone in a crowd of men, it is not assumed that I am asking to be assaulted. Genital mutilation is not commonplace in my culture as a means to keep me "in line."

The lady on the right is much more likely to be subjected to all of those horrors than I am. She is likely not to have choice in these matters. I do have those choices.

This is a silly, false, equivalence. A hajib and a burka are different things. A hajib may not be oppression, but a burka most definitely is.