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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIraq War Resolution: the most important vote in the past 3 decades?
Most important vote in Congress, that is.
If not, what do you think was more important?
15 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited | |
Most important vote in the past 3 decades. | |
7 (47%) |
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Nope. | |
8 (53%) |
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0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided. | |
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Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll |
DerekG
(2,935 posts)Bottom line: A congressperson who voted for the IWR is either dangerously naïve or hideously unscrupulous. Either way, they don't deserve access to the corridors of power.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)neverforget
(9,437 posts)WTF is the obsession with Greenwald?
DanTex
(20,709 posts)was a supporter of the Iraq War. Presumably, the implication of this OP is that any Democrat who voted for the Iraq War is irredeemable, right?
neverforget
(9,437 posts)as to decide whether to vote for a candidate or not. Bringing up a journalist that has no power to cast such votes as a Senator is a distraction since that person is not running for President.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)In deciding how much weight to give a journalist's writings, views held by the journalist seem pretty relevant to me. I'd certainly be interested in knowing whether a science reporter was a creationist or climate denier.
neverforget
(9,437 posts)But please proceed with the distraction.......
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Obviously, the anti-Democratic faction here doesn't really consider support for the Iraq War to be a litmus test.
neverforget
(9,437 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)neverforget
(9,437 posts)I'm undecided about who I want to be our nominee.
I agree that not everything is black and white.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)The Iraq War litmus test question is broader than that though.
neverforget
(9,437 posts)And, still, Greenwald has nothing to do with this thread.
Rex
(65,616 posts)faction on DU...almost as sad as Billy O calling liberals, commies on his show. Sad and like you said, a total distraction from the topic at hand. Probably done on purpose.
neverforget
(9,437 posts)Who is this anti-Democratic faction that he speaks of?
Rex
(65,616 posts)is some way, shape or form...I think he needs to lay off the weed...paranoia self-destroya.
G_j
(40,372 posts)Last edited Wed Jul 9, 2014, 11:59 AM - Edit history (1)
that generally is what having an obsession is...
DanTex
(20,709 posts)I pay attention to things. And I think that's a good thing.
G_j
(40,372 posts)but a real observation, trying to ascertain why Greenwald belongs in this discussion.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)I think Greenwald is relevant in a discussion of currently prominent figures who were in favor of the Iraq War. I'm not sure why he wouldn't be. Maybe you don't think Greenwald is a prominent figure? He seems to be pretty influential, at least on this board.
maybe Kelsey Grammer, and host of other public personalities supported it, it's not really relevant.
"Just wondering if people are aware that the hero of the anti-Democratic faction of DU" <<< you don't have an agenda?
DanTex
(20,709 posts)An agenda? If you want to call it that. People trying to blacklist Democrats for not opposing the IWR while heralding Greenwald as a hero are pretty seriously inconsistent.
or it could have been Chris Mathews..
But the OP was asking another question
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Are you claiming the OP didn't have an agenda?
PAProgressive28
(270 posts)Doesn't mean I don't have respect for Hillary.
Doesn't mean I'm against what Greenwald did.
Not everything is black and white here.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)I agree that not everything is black and white.
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)And I don't even think that's true. If he were running in the Democratic primary, I imagine you would vote for him.
I don't think you're serious about your litmus test thing. I mean, you apparently support Elizabeth Warren who was a Republican all through the Reagan years. What's that about?
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Oh, brother.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)My guess is she wasn't really thinking it through.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Algernon Moncrieff
(5,795 posts)Imperfect though it may be, the ACA will ultimately improve the lives of millions and save thousands of lives every year through the simple expedient of giving Americans access to health care prior to letting a condition grow so bad that they have to go to the ER.
When compared to a world without the ACA, Barack Obama and those who supported the ACA will ultimately be responsible for saving more American lives than were lost in Iraq, Afghanistan, and 9-11 -- year after year. Every year.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Questions:
1. Why only American lives?
2. The Americans killed in our failed wars were young and healthy, and would have likely lived for quite a few years, as compared to many of the people who'll be saved by the ACA. Should that be taken into account?
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,795 posts)2. The Americans killed were young, healthy, and did represent "the best of the best" (see Tillman, Pat). I'll even make your point further before I argue against it: if it weren't for signifigant advances in battlefield medicine since the 70s, we'd have an Iraq/Afghanistan memorial to rival the Vietnam Wall. Many more than were killed came back mentally and physically maimed. Having said all of that, the low-end of estimates that I've read (going back over 10 years) is that 15,000 Americans died every year from simply lacking healthcare. One of the chief reasons I supported John Kerry, then Hillary, then President Obama, was that I saw this as the number one issue in America. We were horrified and outraged as a nation when +/- 3,000 innocent Americans died on 9-11; however we were (as a nation) completely ignorant of the fact that 5 times that many (and I've seen DUers elsewhere cite figures stating as many as 40K per year, which would be 13 9-11s) died every single year from a cause that was 100% preventable. Are some old? Yes. But do the young and healthy benefit? Through screening; through higher quality prenatal care; through having chronic conditions like diabetes be managed.
1. This will sound selfish to a certain portion of DU (perhaps including you):
My voting considerations start in the US and work outward. My opposition to the Iraq war was not based on the human toll, it was based on the American toll. There was no need to involve Americans in removing Saddam Hussein from power; his ability to make war on others had been contained, and though he was a dictatorial S.O.B., there are many dictatorial S.O.B.s in the world, and it's not our job to police them. Our first priorities should be to solve problems here in America: ensuring that all of our children (not just those in wealthy school districts) receive quality educations; rebuilding our cities; balancing our trade deficit; ensuring that those who benefit most from the American economy pay for governance in proportion to their benefit; ensuring that we keep faith with our veterans; ensuring that the bounty of our economy is available to all, regardless of faith, color, or gender. I could go on. My second consideration is our neighbors. I want to do whatever we can do to assist Canada, Mexico, and the Caribbean remain peaceful and prosperous. That does not mean bending over and accepting a pipeline that does not make sense at any level to build. It does mean that I think NAFTA makes a helluva lot more sense than MFN for China, or TPP.
I've gone on too long as it is, so I won't detail what I'de have done differently after 9-11. However, I will say this. No good can come or has come from involvement in the Middle East. In a perfect world, we'd stop trying to broker peace agreements between parties that seem to want perpetual war; stop supporting absolute monarchs who practice modern-day slavery; and should stop taking sides in civil wars in which neither side is right. In a perfect world, we'd concentrate our efforts on making America the best nation it can be, and when we've done that, make it better. If we want respect, we should lead not by force, but by example. If we want secure borders, we should help our neighbors. So why only American lives? They are the lives I care about and the lives that should be the focus of our leaders.
If you read this far, you are sorry you asked
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)to be disgusting. American lives are no more or less important than any other.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,795 posts)American lives are more important to me. Have a nice day.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)For me, it's whether or not someone supported the Reagan Revolution in the 1980's.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)"Was voting for Reagan in 1980 worse than a member of Congress voting to invade Iraq in 2002?"
I suspect that most will agree with you, but who knows? Give it a shot.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)You seem to poll because you actually think it means something.
I've seen a number of original posts from you where you cite unscientific DU polls are proof...of....something....
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)johnnyreb
(915 posts)...and for the rest of us. For the billionaires, no.
A special war mix featuring Libach's "You're In The Army Now" along with edited samples from the film Johnny Got His Gun, various sounds from war movies, George B*sh, Iraq war.
http://www.radio4all.net/index.php/program/19696
BainsBane
(53,127 posts)Because the sad fact is America has had and will continue to have many more wars, but getting national healthcare is something that presidents have tried to do for 100 yrs.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)If the healthcare vote was for single-payer, I would have ranked it most important. As it is, I judge it slightly below IWR.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)ACA, Medicare, or Medicaid?
How would you rank these in terms of people covered, or life-years saved?
BainsBane
(53,127 posts)which only includes ACA.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)But it's reasonable to feel that ACA is the most important vote in 3 decades.
BainsBane
(53,127 posts)Medicare, ACA, Medicaid--though it's hard to judge ACA from this short time frame.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)It's pretty interesting
BainsBane
(53,127 posts)but what I imagine might be the long-term effect.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)before ACA, it won't be easy for ACA to catch up.
BainsBane
(53,127 posts)So how do you separate them?
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Before ACA kicked in, there were about 50 million unininsured Americans, and about 50 million on Medicaid. The number of uninsured has dropped about 13 million since ACA.
BainsBane
(53,127 posts)Or have had their costs reduced? You aren't considering the full story. Pre-existing conditions is a major one.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Pretty complex.
MFrohike
(1,980 posts)The 86 tax act was more important. So was NAFTA, CAFTA, ACA, Gramm-Leach-Billey, etc.
joshcryer
(62,287 posts)Iraq War sets back middle east peace a few decades.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)I know. I know.
Not strictly within your parameters but as far as voting goes, hands down this "vote" is the most important.... imho
mwrguy
(3,245 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)It changed everything.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Tetris_Iguana
(501 posts)And the executive branch knows it.
TheKentuckian
(25,035 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Voting to kill people certainly sways my vote.
conservaphobe
(1,284 posts)nolabels
(13,133 posts)Pretty much everything else was secondary after that
pscot
(21,024 posts)that's had a bigger impact. And it's still kicking our asses today.