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G_j

(40,372 posts)
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 12:25 PM Jul 2014

Republished study: GMO Corn Can Cause Damage to Liver and Kidneys, and Severe Hormonal Disruption

Last edited Fri Jul 11, 2014, 01:19 PM - Edit history (1)

http://www.alternet.org/food/major-study-demonstrates-monsanto-gmo-corn-product-can-cause-damage-liver-and-kidneys-and

July 9, 2014

A scientific study that identified serious health impacts on rats fed on 'Roundup ready' GMO maize has been republished following its controversial retraction under strong commercial pressure. Now regulators must respond and review GMO and agro-chemical licenses, and licensing procedures.

A highly controversial paper by Prof Gilles-Eric Séralini and colleagues has been republished after a stringent peer review process.

The chronic toxicity study examines the health impacts on rats of eating a commercialized genetically modified (GM) maize, Monsanto's NK603 glyphosate-based herbicide Roundup.

The original study, published in Food and Chemical Toxicology (FCT) in September 2012, found severe liver and kidney damage and hormonal disturbances in rats fed the GM maize and low levels of Roundup that are below those permitted in drinking water in the EU.

However it was retracted by the editor-in-chief of the Journal in November 2013 after a sustained campaign of criticism and defamation by pro-GMO scientists.

..more..
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Republished study: GMO Corn Can Cause Damage to Liver and Kidneys, and Severe Hormonal Disruption (Original Post) G_j Jul 2014 OP
That study is STILL garbage mathematic Jul 2014 #1
ROFL... SidDithers Jul 2014 #2
Is it just me or is "Alternet" getting worse and worse? snooper2 Jul 2014 #3
Sadly, science reporting on the left is almost as bad as it is on the right...nt SidDithers Jul 2014 #4
On this I must agree. MohRokTah Jul 2014 #26
I've never trusted their content Bonx Jul 2014 #16
wow G_j Jul 2014 #5
No, we've just seen this garbage posted several times already...nt SidDithers Jul 2014 #6
ROFL G_j Jul 2014 #8
You're the one characterizing this as a major study... SidDithers Jul 2014 #9
If one guys can pay so much then wisechoice Jul 2014 #38
I think it's partly that "where's our jetpacks? their absence means SOMEBODY is to blame!" MisterP Jul 2014 #13
gawd I wish this nonsense would die permanently.... mike_c Jul 2014 #7
It won't... SidDithers Jul 2014 #10
You have a point. Since GMO corn is used so widely, Damansarajaya Jul 2014 #35
"We" didn't see the increase in obesity, diabetes and cancer? KurtNYC Jul 2014 #42
Hmmm . . . good data. I'm not a GMO fan. Damansarajaya Jul 2014 #45
Soda is GMO corn (HFCS) which is designed to be loaded with most easily absorbed sugar -- fructose KurtNYC Jul 2014 #47
Post removed Post removed Jul 2014 #15
I thought I had read the rats were predisposed to tumors! MohRokTah Jul 2014 #27
Alan McHughen frustrated_lefty Jul 2014 #31
Yay! More crappy science!! jeff47 Jul 2014 #11
Nailed it... SidDithers Jul 2014 #12
Do critics of this publication have evidence that current testing standards are optimal? Faryn Balyncd Jul 2014 #14
Do you have evidence that they aren't? jeff47 Jul 2014 #19
Any study showing long term effects of wisechoice Jul 2014 #39
Yes. It's called everyone around you. jeff47 Jul 2014 #46
It appears you have not read either the article or the study: Faryn Balyncd Jul 2014 #50
The study's sample size was too small to make heads or tails out of the data. Avalux Jul 2014 #17
They should redo the study... SidDithers Jul 2014 #18
How about wisechoice Jul 2014 #43
But . . . how does that herbicide affect humans? Petrushka Jul 2014 #20
It affects them poorly. Pesticides also affect humans poorly. jeff47 Jul 2014 #21
Wow, what excellent advice for systemic pesticides! /sarcasm appal_jack Jul 2014 #23
That sounds serious Babel_17 Jul 2014 #25
Here is one on neonics & bird declines: appal_jack Jul 2014 #28
Here's some discussion of problems from using RoundUp to dry down wheat: appal_jack Jul 2014 #29
RoundUp Ready GMO's contributing to Monarch decline: appal_jack Jul 2014 #30
RoundUp & its adjuvants killing amphibians: appal_jack Jul 2014 #32
Neonic pesticides implicated in bat die-offs: appal_jack Jul 2014 #33
Extinction is indeed serious. appal_jack Jul 2014 #34
I only buy non-Monsanto altered products Babel_17 Jul 2014 #36
I agree about rational choice vs. intrinsic opposition. appal_jack Jul 2014 #49
So change the subject, and then attack the strawman for changing the subject. jeff47 Jul 2014 #44
Good Luck with your Monarchs coming back, appal jack! Thanks for your posts not promoting Cha Jul 2014 #48
serious buisiness.. G_j Jul 2014 #22
The truth: Seralini is the Andrew Wakefield of biology. alp227 Jul 2014 #24
Tracing back the source it goes to this...http://www.elsevier.com/ Rex Jul 2014 #37
The Seralini study was originallyh published in the Elsevier journal Food and Chemical Toxicology... SidDithers Jul 2014 #40
Okay thanks, yeah they wouldn't retract anything factual or I wouldn't think so. Rex Jul 2014 #41

mathematic

(1,440 posts)
1. That study is STILL garbage
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 12:37 PM
Jul 2014

Bad statistics, cherry-picked data, incomplete release of raw data, bad design. You name it, it's just terrible science. And on top of all that the story in the OP's link makes a big to-do about how the study passed another "stringent peer review". It did no such thing. The journal that republished it says so:

ESEU conducted no scientific peer review, (editor-in-chief Henner Hollert) adds, “because this had already been conducted by (the first publishing journal) Food and Chemical Toxicology"

http://www.nature.com/news/paper-claiming-gm-link-with-tumours-republished-1.15463

Gilles-Eric Séralini is a fringe crank that pumps out these bogus studies to pimp his pop-science anti-gmo books. He makes far more money from his anti-gmo advocacy than any alleged bought-and-paid-for scientist makes doing real science that happens to benefit industry positions.

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
2. ROFL...
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 12:39 PM
Jul 2014

No matter how many times Seralini pays to have his study republished, or DUers post articles about it, it's still crap.



Sid

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
26. On this I must agree.
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 04:12 PM
Jul 2014

I avoid consuming GMO food as much as is humanly possible, but even I know this studied is severely flawed and thus the conclusions cannot be trusted.

Bonx

(2,079 posts)
16. I've never trusted their content
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 01:57 PM
Jul 2014

Whatever editorial mechanism is in place, isn't particularly discriminating.

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
9. You're the one characterizing this as a major study...
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 12:51 PM
Jul 2014

3 questions for you:

How much did Seralini pay to the journal to have hist "study" published?

What's the impact factor of the journal?

Did the journal have any comment on the content of the study?

Go for it.

Sid

wisechoice

(180 posts)
38. If one guys can pay so much then
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 05:23 PM
Jul 2014

How much did monsanto pay for publishing pro gmo studies?
I know any science against GMO is anti science.

MisterP

(23,730 posts)
13. I think it's partly that "where's our jetpacks? their absence means SOMEBODY is to blame!"
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 01:39 PM
Jul 2014

and a sort of technocratic "cult marketing" a la Apple
http://www.sourcewatch.org/
I dunno!

mike_c

(36,281 posts)
7. gawd I wish this nonsense would die permanently....
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 12:46 PM
Jul 2014

The Seralini paper was republished in a self-publishing, pay-to-print fake journal with zero impact factor and known for strong anti-GMO bias. The paper has no more credibility now than it ever had, which is to say, none.

http://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2014/06/24/scientists-react-to-republished-seralini-maize-rat-study/

Scientists react to republished Séralini GMO maize rat study

Alan McHughen, plant biotechnologist and geneticist at the College of Natural and Agricultural Sciences, University of California, Riverside, said:

The number of rats used was too small to detect a meaningful difference in treatments. In this ‘new’ study, the number of rats remains the same, too small to yield meaningful results. To illustrate for those not familiar, it’s as if Séralini tossed a coin two times, and the coin came up ‘heads’ both times. With this result, Séralini is trying to convince us that he has a magic coin that only comes up ‘heads’.

The strain of rats used (Sprague-Dawley) was inappropriate for this type of two-year long study, as these rats have a natural predisposition to form tumors, regardless of the treatment. Séralini has not and can not justify this fatal error in experimental design

Séralini now asserts that he follows all European ethical guidelines for animal care. But he still shows rats with massive tumors, and the European ethical standards requires rats be euthanized when tumors reach 4 mm diameter. Clearly the rats in the photos have tumors larger than 4 mm, about the size of a small pea.

There’s no dose response. In toxicity or carcinogenicity studies, increasing the dose of an actual toxin or carcinogen leads to greater effect. But Séralini’s data do not show such dose effects, and Séralini still does not properly explain why.

In short, the ‘new’ paper will have the same impact as the original, retracted paper, because the original data were useless, and there is no new data. The methodology was faulty then, and, as there is no new methodology, it remains faulty now.

When the results of an experiment fail to reflect what we observe in the real world, the scientist knows the experimental design or interpretation must be wrong and tries to correct it. But Séralini insists his experiments and interpretations are fine; it’s reality that’s wrong.

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
10. It won't...
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 12:57 PM
Jul 2014

In a few days some other gullible believer of everything they read on the internet will again post some fawning report of Seralini, from some agenda driven writer or publication that has no clue what they're writing about.

And credulous DUers will lap it up.



Sid

 

Damansarajaya

(625 posts)
35. You have a point. Since GMO corn is used so widely,
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 05:13 PM
Jul 2014

one would expect all kinds of increases in cancer and liver-kidney failures in humans by now--if it really happened.

Since we don't, it probably doesn't.

It's like all the evils of fluoride in the water--every major city in the US has it, so if it caused the problems people claim it does, it would be easily seen and quantified by now.

KurtNYC

(14,549 posts)
42. "We" didn't see the increase in obesity, diabetes and cancer?
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 05:29 PM
Jul 2014

"We" didn't see the increase in kidney failure?

Maybe we didn't look very hard:

Obesity in the United States has been increasingly cited as a major health issue in recent decades. While many industrialized countries have experienced similar increases, obesity rates in the United States are among the highest in the world


http://www.reuters.com/news/pictures/slideshow?articleId=USRTXT3DK#a=1

During 1995–2010, the age-adjusted prevalence of diagnosed diabetes among U.S. adults increased in all geographic areas, with the median prevalence for all states, DC, and Puerto Rico increasing from 4.5% to 8.2%


http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6145a4.htm

About 300 of every 100,000 Americans develop cancer each year, which means the U.S. has the seventh highest cancer rate in the world.


http://www.webmd.com/cancer/news/20110123/us-has-7th-highest-cancer-rate-in-the-world

An analysis of federal health data published last November in The Journal of the American Medical Association found that 13 percent of American adults — about 26 million people — have chronic kidney disease, up from 10 percent, or about 20 million people, a decade earlier.

“We’ve had a marked increase in chronic kidney disease in the last 10 years, and that continues with the baby boomers coming into retirement age,” said Dr. Frederick J. Kaskel, director of pediatric nephrology at the Children’s Hospital at Montefiore in the Bronx. “The burden on the health care system is enormous, and it’s going to get worse.

“We won’t have enough units to dialyze these patients.”


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/18/health/18kidneydisease.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

Damansarajaya

(625 posts)
45. Hmmm . . . good data. I'm not a GMO fan.
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 05:51 PM
Jul 2014

I'm willing to go whichever way the facts lead.

I had not seen this information, and it looks pretty damning. One wonders why it's not making more of a splash.

ON EDIT--it looks like the kidney disease increase, however, might simply be driven by more older folks since it references the "baby boomers." Diseases of old age will go up when the population has more old people. Similarly, cancer rates will go up when people DON'T die of something else first, like TB or malaria.

KurtNYC

(14,549 posts)
47. Soda is GMO corn (HFCS) which is designed to be loaded with most easily absorbed sugar -- fructose
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 06:35 PM
Jul 2014

GMO corn was designed to fatten cattle for slaughter and it does.

Bloomberg wasn't totally crazy when he went after soda -- it wasn't a political winner but the data is there. Bloomberg made his billions -- he didn't inherit it. The guy gets the best data and acts on it. He asked a panel to look into healthcare costs in the City and they found that it cost the City $217,000 for every NYer that develops morbid obesity. The City spend $4.7 bil on obesity related medical treatment every year and the number is rising. Obesity correlates strongly with diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure and cancers. Kidney failure is one of the ways that diabetes kills people -- in other words you don't die of being overweight you die because your kidneys lose the ability to get toxins out of your body effectively. The panel recommended a couple things that would make the biggest dent in the problem. One rec was to wean people off of soda. Another was to reduce the incidence of smoking tobacco.

The science is there, the numbers are there. Bloomberg wasn't relying on "Natural News" here. Diet has a huge impact on quality of life and the cost, for the individual and the community, of health care. Bloomberg made a lot of headway on smoking but not on soda. IMHO that is because people accept that smoking is very unhealthy but that took decades. So it will take time on the soda and other GMO foods. Bloomberg was too far ahead of the public perception of this problem.

Perhaps appropriately, the talking points now being used to defend GMO are being called "cigarette science" as many see the similarities. GMO is on trial in Vermont with the burden of proof on the GMO industry to prove that GMO has no significantly different health consequences than conventional seed.

And that may be tough because:

GMO corn was designed to fatten cattle for slaughter and it does.

Response to mike_c (Reply #7)

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
27. I thought I had read the rats were predisposed to tumors!
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 04:14 PM
Jul 2014

Thanks for the post. Don't they use those rats in tests of anti-cancer treatments?

frustrated_lefty

(2,774 posts)
31. Alan McHughen
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 04:22 PM
Jul 2014
http://www.powerbase.info/index.php/Alan_McHughen

"McHughen developed and spread the GM flax called Triffid which in 2009 was revealed to have contaminated European flax supplies (see "GM-contaminated flax débacle", below). "

"McHughen, the inventor or "engineer" of Triffid GM flax, was one of a group of scientists who have been accused of setting up Russian scientist Irina Ermakova for an aggressive attack in the pages of Nature Biotechnology in 2007.[17][18] Ermakova's multi-generational feeding studies on GM soya found that it created ill effects and high mortality in experimental rats.[19]"

I'd be very interested to see a list of McHughen's funding sources.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
11. Yay! More crappy science!!
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 01:00 PM
Jul 2014

Let's take a small sample rats that have been bred to get tumors, and then feed them stuff. When they get tumors, we'll claim it's the food.

Even better, we'll feed them a known toxic chemical (RoundUp) and then claim it's the food, not the chemical. To prove this, we'll feed the chemical to other rats and show they are also harmed.....but we never quite got around to only giving the food to some rats.

Instead of that fairly easy to do test, we instead spent years complaining about our paper getting yanked, and gathering groups of people to look at the paper. And then we paid people to publish our paper.

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
12. Nailed it...
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 01:04 PM
Jul 2014

Some delicious irony among the posters reccing this thread, too, given the crap science that's being promoted.

Sid

Faryn Balyncd

(5,125 posts)
14. Do critics of this publication have evidence that current testing standards are optimal?
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 01:46 PM
Jul 2014




According to Patrick Holden, Chief Executive of the Sustainable Food Trust (SFT) the study highlights the inadequacy of current safety testing:

"The most obvious deficiency relates to the fact that the current approval process is based on animal feeding trials of only 90 days, a totally inadequate duration when one considers that chronic diseases in animals and humans do not usually manifest until mid-life."

A second deficiency, he added, relates to the newly emerging science of epigenetics - which demonstrates that endocrine systems can be seriously disrupted by the presence of chemical residues at concentrations as low as a few parts per billion.

"This turns on its head the logic of an approval process based on MRL (maximum residue levels), since it is becoming increasingly apparent that these chemicals have patterns of non-linear response."







It would seem that these are significant issues.

And it would seem that condescending attacks on this publication divert attention from these issues.



Could it be true that the current approval process is based on 90 days feeding trials?

If this is, in fact, the case, do those criticizing this publication have reason to believe that this is adequate to determine long term renal, hepatic, and endocrine effects?













jeff47

(26,549 posts)
19. Do you have evidence that they aren't?
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 02:17 PM
Jul 2014

This study is fatally flawed in several ways. The two primary flaws:

1) Inadequate controls. They did not feed rats just the crop under test. They always fed the rats RoundUp. RoundUp is known to be toxic.

2) Inadequate sample size: They selected rats that had been bred to naturally develop tumors. They will do so at a random rate. In order to use these rats effectively, you need to use a lot of them in order to overcome the statistical noise from natural tumors. They didn't do that.

If this is, in fact, the case, do those criticizing this publication have reason to believe that this is adequate to determine long term renal, hepatic, and endocrine effects?

Considering no one has even a theoretical mechanism where the crop causes renal, hepatic or endocrine harm, yes.

RoundUp is known to cause harm to those systems. Food from RoundUp Ready crops is not normally coated in RoundUp - they added RoundUp to the food in this study.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
46. Yes. It's called everyone around you.
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 05:56 PM
Jul 2014

Humans have been eating GMOs for a few centuries now. For example, corn is an utterly artificial creation. The plant can not survive without human intervention. Also, there's many hybrids of other plants that people have been breeding for years that form the basis of many food crops.

If you want to get to GMOs where we directly manipulated the DNA, most people have been eating them for around 5 to 10 years.

If you'd like to prove GMOs are harmful, first you'll have to come up with some mechanism by which they could actually cause harm. Because then you'd have something to look for. That's been the big problem with the folks opposed to GMOs - they have lots of scary sounding stories, but they don't have a mechanism where the GMO can affect your body. Well, affect your body in a way other than being food.

ETA:
"They should have to study it first before releasing it!!"
They did. Before a GMO is planted in the wild, studies are done to see if the genes spread in unexpected ways. Or if the plant develops unexpected traits.

And then they ship it, and people demand more study.

GMOs sound spooky to people who don't understand what's being done. And unfortunately, our crappy education system means lots of people fall into that category. As a result, there's demands for "more studies". The problem is you can call for more studies forever. There will always be someone with a claim that a product is terrible. Heck, there's a large group of people who insist all food and drink are awful (the "Breatharians&quot .

So, find a way where they can cause harm. Then it can be studied.

Faryn Balyncd

(5,125 posts)
50. It appears you have not read either the article or the study:
Sat Jul 12, 2014, 12:23 AM
Jul 2014

Last edited Sat Jul 12, 2014, 12:54 AM - Edit history (1)



First of all, you assert "They did not feed rats just the crop under test. They always fed the rats RoundUp. RoundUp is known to be toxic."

However, the article linked in the OP clearly states- "Toxic effects were found from the GM maize tested alone, as well as from Roundup tested alone and together with the maize."

Because of your statement that ""They did not feed rats just the crop under test. They always fed the rats RoundUp." (directly contradicting the article), I examined the study itself to see if the OP article had misreported in regard to whether Monsanto's Roundup ready corn was also tested without Roundup as well as with Roundup. Here's the result:



Background

The health effects of a Roundup-tolerant NK603 genetically modified (GM) maize (from 11% in the diet), cultivated with or without Roundup application and Roundup alone (from 0.1 ppb of the full pesticide containing glyphosate and adjuvants) in drinking water, were evaluated for 2 years in rats. This study constitutes a follow-up investigation of a 90-day feeding study conducted by Monsanto in order to obtain commercial release of this GMO, employing the same rat strain and analyzing biochemical parameters on the same number of animals per group as our investigation. Our research represents the first chronic study on these substances...

Discussion

"... in our study presented here, in addition to extending the treatment period from 90 days to 2 years and in order to better ascertain the source of any ill health observed, we included additional test feeding groups. These consisted of NK603 maize grown without as well as with R application and R alone administered via drinking water. Furthermore, we used three levels of dosing in all cases rather than the two previously used [3], in order to highlight any dose response effects of a given treatment. It is also important to note that our study is the first to conduct blood, urine, and organ analyses from animals treated with the complete agricultural formulation of R and not just G alone, as measured by the manufacturer.

http://www.enveurope.com/content/26/1/14



So it would appear that your assertions that " They did not feed rats just the crop under test. They always fed the rats RoundUp..... Food from RoundUp Ready crops is not normally coated in RoundUp - they added RoundUp to the food in this study." are simply not correct.


Second, this study was designed to look for possible renal, hepatic, and endocrine toxicities over an exposure time longer than the 90 days of Monsanto's study, and was not designed as a carcinogenic study.




What is perhaps more disturbing (than your misrepresentation of whether the crop had been tested without Roundup, your focus on carcinogenesis rather than renal and hepatic effects, and your apparent lack of concern regarding the adequacy of a feeding trial limited to 90 days), however, is your opening question "'Do you have evidence that they aren't?", which implies that the burden of proof should be, not with the corporation seeking approval to market products such as Roundup and Roundup ready corn, but with others.

Certainly, you must not believe that the burden of proof belongs with anyone other than Monsanto... But why then such readiness to criticize those bold enough to undertake overdue long-term studies?





It would seem that the essential issue remains that pointed out in the OP,;




According to Patrick Holden, Chief Executive of the Sustainable Food Trust (SFT) the study highlights the inadequacy of current safety testing:

"The most obvious deficiency relates to the fact that the current approval process is based on animal feeding trials of only 90 days, a totally inadequate duration when one considers that chronic diseases in animals and humans do not usually manifest until mid-life."





Is this not a concern you find reasonable?


















Avalux

(35,015 posts)
17. The study's sample size was too small to make heads or tails out of the data.
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 01:57 PM
Jul 2014

The results cannot be definitively attributed to GMO corn and roundup; they were unable to prove the study's hypothesis.

They should do the same study with a bigger sample size instead of arguing for this one if they really want to shut people up.

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
18. They should redo the study...
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 02:06 PM
Jul 2014

Last edited Fri Jul 11, 2014, 03:21 PM - Edit history (1)

using rats that don't spontaneously develop tumors 75% - 90% of the time, regardless of what they're fed.

Sourced: "these are rats with a genetic predisposition to get cancer: 70% of males and 87% of females get it."
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/11/29/belated-retraction-of-seralinis-bad-anti-gmo-paper/

Couldn't source the comment while on my phone.

Sid

wisechoice

(180 posts)
43. How about
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 05:31 PM
Jul 2014

Monsanto should have done real science before releasing their GMO products? Monsanto releases whatever they want and it is up to others to do the study?

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
21. It affects them poorly. Pesticides also affect humans poorly.
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 02:20 PM
Jul 2014

Both of those are reasons why you're supposed to wash your food before you eat it.

 

appal_jack

(3,813 posts)
23. Wow, what excellent advice for systemic pesticides! /sarcasm
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 03:04 PM
Jul 2014

Wow, what excellent advice for systemic pesticides! You're all, like, science-y and expert-y. Phooey on those anti-GMO Luddites!



Hey jeff47, do you even know what 'systemic' means? Systemics travel through the plant. Washing produce does NOTHING to remove systemics. So when squash seed is treated with Admire (imidacloprid - a systemic) or wheat is dried-down using RoundUp (glyphosate - a systemic) or GMO corn & soy are grown under continuous spraying of RoundUp (glyphosate - again, a *&%$*#* systemic), these chemicals are INSIDE of the vegetable or grain. Those Admire-treated squash blossoms have toxic pollen that kills bees. But the squash is surely safe for us because corpo-agri-business says so... (/sarcasm again).

Nice RW trope to blame the individual consumer and their washing habits, btw. Do you always blame the end-user who unwittingly buys and suffers from harmful corporate products masquerading as essential inputs for life itself?

Here's a radical idea: why don't we focus on growing food that, y'know, nourishes us instead of poisoning us if not treated like hazardous waste first? And then maybe the ongoing extinctions of many bees and birds and bats and frogs and Monarch butterflies might just slow down a mite.

No, no, that would be too much trouble. Fuck you, bees. And all you bats? Fuck off and die - Monsanto has a quarterly earnings target to meet. Fuck you too, frogs. I would say fuck you to a Monarch personally, but I can't find one anymore. (Well, sarcasm except not being able to find any Monarchs - I've left every Milkweed plant I can in my garden, but no Monarch caterpillars yet.)

-app

 

appal_jack

(3,813 posts)
29. Here's some discussion of problems from using RoundUp to dry down wheat:
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 04:20 PM
Jul 2014

Here's some discussion of problems from using RoundUp to dry down wheat:

http://www.gmfreecymru.org/news/Press_Notice8May2012.htm

-app

 

appal_jack

(3,813 posts)
34. Extinction is indeed serious.
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 04:47 PM
Jul 2014

Extinction is indeed serious. I'm about 100 pages into Elizabeth Kolbert's excellent book, The Sixth Extinction, and I guess that it has me a bit wound-up today. Everyone should read this book. But what baffles me is why everyone else, even if they just hear about bees dying and bats declining in passing on the news, is not equally wound-up. A tragedy is unfolding before our eyes right now, and it may well destroy us as well.

-app

Babel_17

(5,400 posts)
36. I only buy non-Monsanto altered products
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 05:14 PM
Jul 2014

Thanks for the links. I'll click on them later, when I can focus.

Same as nation building, I'm not intrinsically opposed to GMO. But like I said about the Bush administration, I have no reason to trust Monsanto to do it right.

 

appal_jack

(3,813 posts)
49. I agree about rational choice vs. intrinsic opposition.
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 11:45 PM
Jul 2014

I agree about rational choice vs. intrinsic opposition. My sister has Type 1 Diabetes. Once upon a time, she injected insulin extracted from cows or pigs, but these days all her insulin is made by GMO bacteria in vats in labs. This is great by me, because those bacteria are confined to labs (or factories I guess). That's a whole lot different than planting a wind-pollinated crop in a field, and then spraying it with herbicides that can travel into soil, the water table, etc., while the pollen can travel for miles.

The GMO bacteria-grown insulin works better than the cow or pig stuff. Whereas, there is no evidence that GMO crops work better than a well-managed organic food production system. GMO-promoters love to talk about increased production or better drought resistance, but it's longer rotations and more cover crops that make for higher yields, and increased soil organic matter that allow crops to become better resistant to droughts.

-app

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
44. So change the subject, and then attack the strawman for changing the subject.
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 05:45 PM
Jul 2014

Nicely done.

Systemics travel through the plant. Washing produce does NOTHING to remove systemics.

Depends on the plant and the systemic. For example, some systemics do not show up in the fruit. Also, some systemics can be used a while before the harvest, because the systemic breaks down before the crop is harvested.

wheat is dried-down using RoundUp (glyphosate - a systemic)

Nope. RoundUp isn't a pesticide. You can tell because it kills plants instead of animals.

Oh wait, you changed the subject again to keep attacking, hoping people didn't notice.

Nice RW trope to blame the individual consumer and their washing habits, btw.

Yes, a snarky comment is casting blame.

Here's a radical idea: why don't we focus on growing food that, y'know, nourishes us instead of poisoning us if not treated like hazardous waste first?

Because we can't grow enough.

Really, it's that simple. We've reached this point in modern agriculture because we need a certain yield per acre to keep everyone fed for a reasonable cost. So we're dumping toxic chemicals on the ground, depleting topsoil and draining aquifers in an attempt to keep it going.

Obviously, that's not going to last. So we either need to start slaughtering large numbers of people, or we can start engineering plants for drought tolerance and higher yield.

You're free to select "option #1".

Monsanto has a quarterly earnings target to meet.

Monsanto does not make all GMOs. Just like Disney does not make all cartoons.

Monsanto engineers plants to then turn around and sell RoundUp to the farmers. As a result, they aren't part of the solution.

Cha

(298,021 posts)
48. Good Luck with your Monarchs coming back, appal jack! Thanks for your posts not promoting
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 10:36 PM
Jul 2014

poisons and encouraging healthy organic produce.

G_j

(40,372 posts)
22. serious buisiness..
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 02:24 PM
Jul 2014

"The United States seems to be completely behind Monsanto, regardless of any science questioning the safety of its products. Cables released by WikiLeaks show that US diplomats around the world are pushing GMO crops as a strategic government and commercial imperative. The cables also reveal instructions to punish any foreign countries trying to ban GMO crops."

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
37. Tracing back the source it goes to this...http://www.elsevier.com/
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 05:20 PM
Jul 2014

Anyone know about this site? Nice website, but hell I could make one just like it.

My only question is if this is factual, original source documents...why would you retract it?

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
40. The Seralini study was originallyh published in the Elsevier journal Food and Chemical Toxicology...
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 05:28 PM
Jul 2014

A reputable peer-reviewed journal. They later retracted the report because the science was crap.

Seralini has now paid for a no impact factor journal called Environmental Sciences Europe to republish his flawed study, without peer-review, and the anti-GMO crowd thinks this is big news, for some reason.

Sid

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
41. Okay thanks, yeah they wouldn't retract anything factual or I wouldn't think so.
Fri Jul 11, 2014, 05:29 PM
Jul 2014

I'm always leery of anything coming from alternet.

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