Here Are 4 Ways We’re Accidentally Teaching Kids That Consent Doesn't Matter

[eridani]

http://www.upworthy.com/here-are-4-ways-were-accidentally-teaching-kids-that-consent-doesnt-matter?c=upw1

The third way that we sometimes teach kids that consent isn't important is through forced hugs and kisses and this is all in the [guides] of teaching politeness. We want them to give Uncle Joe a hug and kiss when you see him because he's their elder, and it's important to respect him in that way, and because he wants a hug and a kiss, regardless of how your child is feeling. And the idea of being that if they don't go give Uncle Joe a hug and a kiss it reflects poorly on you, that your kids are rude or, you know, standoff-ish or whatever. And we worry about that as parents and so then we end up, you know, whether it's by force or coercion getting our kids to hug and kiss someone that they don't want to.

This is a huge red flag. You know, we don't want our teen daughters or our teen sons to be in a sexual situation where they're feeling like they don't really wanna continue, but they feel like they can't say anything because they've come this far and it would be rude to stop or that type of thing. That is exactly the problems that we get in young adults with not asking for consent but also not being bale to give it because you don't feel that you have that place to say no, I'm not comfortable with this, we need to stop right now. So it's very important not to make your kids hug and kiss, or you know, shake hands or anything like that, you know. "You know Uncle Joe, you saw him last year," and if Uncle Joe asks for a hug or kiss, you can say, "Do you want to give him a hug or a kiss or just wave hi?" And then have a wave hi or, you know, blow a kiss or whatever is comfortable in your family for some type of non touching related greeting.

And also, you don't have to force your kid to greet someone that they don't want. We often are forcing our kids to hug relatives that to them they don't even remember, very distant relatives, and we wonder why sexual abuse is so frequently a family member and why the kids didn't tell mom and dad when they've been taught their whole lives that they should respect their elders, that they should be giving physical affection to family members, so it becomes very hard for them to say 'I was touched in in an inappropriate way.' So this one has a very big implication right now for child sexual abuse. You really want your kids to know that they could say no and they never have to be touched in a way that they don't wanna be touched, and also for when they're older so that they feel like whenever they get that feeling in their stomach that 'I don't wanna do this next thing. I don't wanna be touched in this way" that they know that they can say no.

[delrem]

1. My mother's great-grand-daughter didn't want to kiss her.

My mother is very old. Beyond anything her great-grand-daughter had ever experienced.

Of course nobody forced the young girl to kiss the old lady. Jeeeeeeees, people.

Let's be real.

[eridani]

2. So, are you saying consent doesn't really matter? n/t

[delrem]

3. how could you possibly imagine that?

that goes entirely against the experience I related.

[Skittles]

4. what you related

doesn't make much sense

[delrem]

5. Oh.

I apologize.
It was a piece of actual history from my family.

[Skittles]

6. it's just easily misunderstood

are you saying no one coerces their children into contact they'd rather avoid? I've seen it quite frequently.

I see you're doing it again here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025241662

wtf do you mean?

[Skittles]

9. "you guys", as in critical thinkers

you poor thing, NOW we see why you are so easily confused

[delrem]

11. Then alert me for calling it. Skittles.

[Skittles]

12. oh I don't alert

have no use for it - much more fun just calling you out

[delrem]

15. and your point is?

did you really "call me out"?

I can't see how.

All I can see is someone trolling me.

[Skittles]

16. LOL....done here

you're boring me now

[delrem]

17. you were "done" awhile ago, Skittles.

[Squinch]

26. delrem, seriously, back down. I couldn't figure out what your post was saying either.

If you were clearer, people wouldn't "troll" you.

[joeglow3]

41. I figured it out in the first reading

A young child had not experienced an extremely old person and did not want to kiss her. No one forced her to.

Not difficult at all. Honestly, I think one would have to try to be obtuse for some of the replies.

[Squinch]

46. That's nice but I didn't and neither did eridani, who very civilly asked him what he meant.

He hit high C just because someone asked, reasonably, what his post meant.

[Behind the Aegis]

8. I was lucky as I never experienced those messages.

My mother was very forceful when it came to not allowing people to touch us. If we didn't want a hug or a kiss, we didn't have to endure it. Number 3 was a bit mixed, but for the most part we were questioned as to why we would say such things as opposed to be being told "no, that isn't what you really think or feel." One relative wanted a hug from one of my brothers, and was refused. When she said "you are hurting my feelings", my mother pulled her aside and said "Fuck your feelings! If he doesn't want to hug you; get over it!"

[eridani]

10. Good for her!

I think your experience is probably unusual, though.

[Behind the Aegis]

13. It likely is and may have something to do with her own abuse by a family member.

My mom went to great lengths to make sure we didn't have to endure the things she did as a child. She doesn't ask "did you miss me?" she states, "I missed you." It may seem trivial, but it demonstrates how she feels, rather than what she expects.

[pinboy3niner]

14. That's very insightful. nt

[Bonobo]

18. I agree with you.

In Japan where I live, there is a much greater respect for people's physical (and emotional) boundaries -probably because it is so densely populated that they needed that private place to go.

[Shankapotomus]

19. How would this non-greeting philosophy play out in RL?

Would it be okay for a diplomat to refuse a handshake or greeting of their counterpart from another country?

I mean, if it really does make sense in the child's world, it would have to make sense in the adult world. But I don't see this working without basic cordiality between people eventually breaking down.

I can understand hugs and kisses but a handshake or even a greeting is too much? I know in other cultures a greeting between new acquaintances is not always necessary and still be inoffensive but I don't see how not at least giving someone the acknowledgement of existence would not be considered by anyone as a little insulting here.

I mean, are we a social species or not? If we are I would think that would entail retaining at least one symbolic gesture of civility and acknowledgment toward each other. It doesn't have to be a lot or particularly demanding. But given that there is such a negative connotation to being ignored, no matter who you are, shouldn't there be something?

If every verbal greeting is to be treated as a possible precursor to abuse, we might as well pack it in as a civilization right now.

How about we still greet each other but if someone we've greeted behaves in any way weird or intrusive after that, then we can be suspicious and withdraw contact?

It sounds like this article was written from the perspective of someone who may have been abused, who still is dealing with the trauma of it and who is looking back on the experience in hindsight and thinking "If only I never said 'hello' to uncle joe this would have never happened."

[eridani]

20. Adults are capable of understanding diplomatic protocols

They are able to rationally analyze social customs and decide how to comply with them or not. Forcing social interactions on kids doesn't teach them diddlysquat IMO.

[laundry_queen]

23. Yep.

Reminds me of parents I know who say, "They have to learn about the REAL world!"

dude, your kid is 4. Give them a break. They have many years to learn about the 'real' world, and it will come in time. They will learn how to work and how to be diplomatic and how to interact as they grow up, no need to push them too early as that can be equally as damaging as not teaching them anything at all. Teach them (without forcing them) as the opportunity comes up and they will learn just fine.

Also, if one is worried about social interaction and how that makes others feel, then it's the perfect opportunity to teach empathy. You don't have to force your kid to hug or even say hi, but as kids get older you can say things like, "Grandma hasn't seen you for awhile and I know how excited she was to see you. She loves you a lot. I know it would mean a lot to her if you acknowledge her. You can decide how you want to do that." No forcing needed, and a good opportunity to teach empathy. I did this with my kids when they met my grandfather (who was nearly 100 at the time) and they decided to draw him a picture that said, "we love you great-grandpa" on it. My aunt put it on the wall of his room at the home he was in and he treasured it and showed it off to his friends. No forcing of anything needed and everyone felt respected and heard.

[Shankapotomus]

24. I agree

Social interactions should not be forced on kids. I'm talking about a simple greeting. A greeting does not imply a social relationship. Ultimately, the behavior will be coerced out of adults through positive and negative interactions based on behavior anyway (there are social penalties for being rude or truthful), what is the point of this training if society is just going to hammer it out of us anyway?

Plus, a child that doesn't learn how to greet someone without spinning some negative inner narrative around that greeting is going to have to learn how not to do that later in life. Not being able to give someone a basic greeting is going to have far worse repercussions later in life. Training a child they do not have to greet someone is like training them to not look both ways when crossing the street. It's complete overkill when the problem is not the greeting as such but what could follow the greeting.

In this day and age, when refusal to acknowledge a partner in a domestic situation is such a common abuse, I can't believe someone would not see teaching children it's okay not to at least acknowledge someone is training in the same kind of abuse.

If someone did that to you in a work environment it would be abusive. If your partner did it to you it would be abusive. If a stranger did it they would be an asshole.

I agree children should be given more leeway than adults but refusing to greet someone is, ultimately, not an equally acceptable and valid alternative option as the video seems to present.

[gollygee]

36. It is entirely possible

to not expect a 4-year-old to greet people and then, when they're six, say "you're old enough now to be expected to at least wave and say hi."

[Shankapotomus]

39. Absolutely

There has to be some allowance for dealing with a child. But you've just proven my point, really.

Eventually, the illusion the woman in the video is trying to convey, that of pretending the child has a choice, is going to have to be broken. There really is no choice here. You can't have a functional adult walking around not returning greetings on any whim. No matter how long you put it off, you as a parent or somebody is going to have to break the child of the habit that there is any real functional choice in the matter.

[Brickbat]

32. But it's not talking about verbal greetings.

It's about forcing a four-year-old to be quiet and polite when people touch and embrace them, when they don't want to be touched or embraced,. A better analogy would be adults having to submit to hugs and kisses from their bosses when they get to work every morning.

[Shankapotomus]

37. She did include simple greetings

I agree with the part about hugs and kisses and physical contact. But she was including simple non-physical greetings such as saying 'Hi'.

Specifically in regards to non-physical greetings, it's seems what is being conveyed is more trauma projection than proper parenting skills. I understand some people have experienced trauma and abuse in their lives and that should be acknowledged and seriously considered. Where I think it goes too far is when tactics for avoiding potential abuse take on the unhealthy and traumatized perspective or state of a victim still in a condition or recovery and mistrust of others. It's understandable that the world can appear full of uncertainty with every encounter but not every situation, person, and certainly, not every greeting is a potential springboard for abuse conditioning. I think it is unhealthy to project that on everyone else and certainly wrong to start teaching everyone to accept a way of thinking that probably is the product of trauma and an unfortunate experience rather than a carefully reasoned out approach. It's fine, if as someone who has been abused you feel not able to trust others enough to grant them even a simple 'hello'. People should be understanding of that, for sure. That is a special situation where someone is trying to recover from abuse. But I think it goes too far when you start projecting and requiring that from everyone else. I have a serious mistrust and suspicion of conservatives and won't socialize with them when I can avoid it but I would not expect or require everyone to adopt that tactic.

Greetings are the social currency of civilization, the glue that holds us together. For thousands of years it has been in the social contract. The deal is you say 'hello' and I say 'hello' back. What the woman in the video is proposing is stripping that behavior from our DNA and the fabric of civilization. It is a very selfish behavior to reinforce in a child and an anti-social one by definition and universally disliked. Nobody ever feels positive after being ignored or snubbed. It makes sense that someone traumatized through a social interaction would want to sever and look suspiciously on any connections that keep us tied to others. But challenging a simple greeting is not the perspective of a healthy or fully developed psychology -- it's immature at best, sociopathic at worst -- and shouldn't be promoted as one or applied to a typical situation.

[Comrade Grumpy]

43. Nice post. "Trauma projection" is a nice, useful phrase.

[ananda]

21. Children generally learn from what adults DO not from what they say or order.

And children notice and take in everything.

[laundry_queen]

22. EXCELLENT link (I read the transcript)

This is a huge issue. I did some reading about this when my kids were little and I made the decision that I'd never force them to hug and kiss relatives. I was forced to do it and unsurprisingly I was put in a few situations where I was physically violated but scared to say anything.

Also, the part in the article about tickling and rough housing was a bit of a trigger for me. I remember my dad not stopping when I would beg him to stop. One time, after I had begged him to stop he was tickling me so hard I couldn't breathe and felt like I was going to pass out. Then when I got a breath, I screamed bloody murder. Then he was mad I screamed, "you were laughing a minute ago" he said. My mom was a bit mad at him, but all he would say was, "I like hearing her laugh". (Yeah, my dad was always a narcissistic parent). What kind of parent is more concerned with their own pleasure at hearing their kid laugh than at the child's feelings about tickling? I always told him I didn't like it. He never listened. Not surprising, again, that I didn't say no very much when people invaded my personal space. I still have issues with it. He did the same with roughhousing and it always ended with me in tears. He would always say it's because I'm a wimpy girl (but yet my brother cried too and never got the same ridicule).

Oh, and also in the article, the part about invalidation. That was my parent's MO. There wasn't a feeling I had that they couldn't find a way to deny. I wasn't allowed to have a feeling unless it concurred with their feeling. I could write a whole book filled with examples. Ah, life with narcissists.

Obviously I don't do any of these things with my kids. If they declare they are hot when I'm cold, I'll say, "Oh? You're hot? I'm freezing. Maybe you are hot because you are running around and I'm cold because I've just been sitting here by the open window. Would you like some ice water maybe to cool off?" If they don't want to hug or kiss, they don't have to. I only tickle when asked to, and I stop when they say no, or if they are laughing, I'll stop every few seconds to let them catch their breath until they yell 'again'.

My kids used to interrupt a bit and I've not been over the top with trying to stop them. I take in on a case by case basis. If I'm on the phone, they have learned (now that they are older) they can write me a note if they need something. Most of the time I can help them out while still continuing on the phone. I haven't been 'interrupted' and they get their needs met. It's even better now that my youngest can write notes too.

I've never believed in the 'respect your elders' thing (and weirdly neither did my parents) so that doesn't apply because I've never taught it. I teach them that everyone deserves respect, and I've emphasized empathy (that is my #1 'thing' as a parent...I want my kids to be empathetic...everything after that one lesson will fall into place imo) so that they treat everyone how they want to be treated. Obviously my kids aren't perfect with that, lol, but for the most part they are really in tune and kind to others.

I could go on about this subject forever. Thanks for posting this link.

[aikoaiko]

25. My first thought was too dismiss this piece but I see it resonated with others so I'll reconsider

But my thoughts were:

Do chores teach child labor is ok when he doesn't want to clean his room?
Do physicals and shots teach forced medical procedures are ok?

I can't imagine what telling my child year to get undressed, take a bath, and making him wash his hair teaches him?

Maybe the issues in the video are different, in general, for boys and girls. Or maybe just me.

[Squinch]

27. If an adult insists that a child clean his room, are there a lot of precedents for children later

being assaulted by those rooms?

Lots of children are assaulted by relatives. If we teach children that they are not allowed to say no to physical contact by a relative, we take away their ability to see the situation clearly and follow their feelings when they do not want physical contact.

[Quantess]

28. Apples and oranges.

Although I can see that this OP is exaggerating the case, and that it is a real stretch to say pressure to hug people is a slippery slope to date rape.
But personally I think nobody, no matter how young, should be unduly pressured to give out hugs. And yes, I see it happen all the time.

Some children, for example those with developmental delays, give out hugs too often and/or in the wrong social context, and/or to strangers. Hugging can be very unwanted and obnoxious. Sometimes even aggressive.

[Squinch]

29. I don't believe that date rape is the issue. I think the issues is with children while they are

children. If we teach them they must obey when an adult says, "give me physical affection," we are setting them up if, God forbid, there is a predator in their lives. And we all know that kind of predator is around and there are a lot more of them than we like to think.

[Quantess]

30. Okay, I'll buy that.

Children are taught that it is not polite to reject a hug, no matter how socially obnoxious. Even from other children, in some cases.

I am thinking of a certain 6 year old boy, with developmental delays. He runs up and hugs people in socially inappropriate occasions, as well as socially acceptable occasions. Most of us who work at the school are aware that we need to discourage hugging in his case. But adults and children who are unaware of this boy's aggressive need to hug people accept his awkwardly timed hugs because (I assume) they don't want to be rude.

He is aggressive in his hugging. He uses hugging as a way to express himself (not always nice feelings), which really concerns me. I am worried that he will be dangerous when he gets older, if he doesn't outgrow the habit.

Sometimes it is good to reject hugs.

[Squinch]

31. It is often an issue with developmentally delayed kids, both giving hugs and not saying, "I don't

want you to hug me, please stop."

If they are hugging inappropriately, I will I always try to help them understand the negative signals they get from the other child who doesn't want to be hugged. I also talk it out with the "hug-ee" with the "hug-er" present,and ask, "Did you want him to hug you?" If they say no, then we role play for the next time with the hug-ee telling the hug-er that he didn't want to be hugged and to please not do it again.

It takes a while, but it often works.

[Quantess]

35. Yes, hugging appropriately takes social skills! We sometimes take this for granted.

Most of the students I work with at the school seem to want to express affection, but they overdo it. For them, I generally tell them they only get to hug me once per day, and the other teacher seem to have that policy also. Since they would like to be socially acceptable, this seems to work.

But this one boy is often really aggressive with hugging. He has learned that this is easier to get away with than hitting or kicking. He is smart enough to know that people generally don't reject a hug, because they don't want to seem rude. The way I see it, he has found a sneaky way to assault people. I wish we could get his parents on board to try to limit the hugging. Otherwise, he could end up in jail for assault, when he grows up.

All children need to learn the fine art of accepting or rejecting hugs, and that it's not rude to not hug someone if you don't want to.

[Brickbat]

33. The other messages kids get about hygiene and labor are generally pretty consistent, though.

The ones we have for affection, love and sex are all over the map, and this is just one piece of it.

[talkguy365]

34. Kids are shy by nature.

As parents it is our responsibility to guide our children to the norms of social and familial protocol. Nowhere in a innocent hug and kiss by a relative are we espousing molestation. The result of teaching such fear is an introvert who is scared of their own shadow.

[Quantess]

38. All things in moderation, absolutely.

But like most things, the pressure to give or accept hugs can be taken too far. I don't think anyone should be forced into hugging anyone.

[talkguy365]

40. Ah ha. Moderation is key.

Deliver us from the horrors of the dreaded aunt line. Yuck.

[Quantess]

42. What do you imply by that?

Can you please expand on that? I have posts upthread which are a lot more detailed than your one, minimally worded, post.

[talkguy365]

45. No implications.

My aunts would form a line and slobber all over my cheeks. Even I consider that too much. Allowing my child the option to give their aunt and uncle a hug and kiss is just right. It's our responsibility to teach our children the appropriate level of affection, or we run the risk of throwing them to the wolves during their pubescent years.

[Quantess]

47. Which is exactly my point! Nobody should be forced to hug anyone.

Although I see that in your case, as so many others, hugs & slobbery kisses were inescapable.

Usually a hug is nice. Just nice.

[Comrade Grumpy]

44. As a kid, I had to hug smelly old aunts. It was gross. Then I got over it.