BREAKING ON CNN: US Intelligence CONFIRMS

[MohRokTah]

Last edited Fri Jul 18, 2014, 09:31 AM - Edit history (1)

The missile was fired by the Pro-Russian Separatists. No link yet, live on CNN.

This is now officially an act of terrorism.

UPDATED: Link

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/18/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-airlines-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_inthenews

Sorry, I had to step out for about an hour.

[greyl]

1. If the intended target was military and this was a mistake, I don't think it'd be terrorism. nt

[Skidmore]

3. It will be deemed a mistake regardless because to do otherwise

would demand that too many nations be launched into war right now and shatter whatever semblance of stability that exists.

[MohRokTah]

14. The terrorism word will probaby be leveraged.

If Putin does not disavow the separatists and cut all ties, they will be declared terrorists which will make Russia a state sponsor of terrorism. That's how to get tough on Putin diplomatically now.

[Coventina]

43. Except that the airliner was broadcasting, to any equipment capable of targeting it, a civilian

signal.

It's not the 1980s anymore.

[MohRokTah]

72. It appears to be depraved indifference

They seem to have been shooting at anything in the sky and simply did not care.

[laundry_queen]

86. From the intercepted discussion

It appears they didn't even understand that civilian aircraft was allowed in their area...they figured they were at war and so everyone would simply avoid the area, except those they were targeting. Sounds like they are profoundly uneducated, IMO.

[dipsydoodle]

2. Meanwhile Sky News is reporting

that the Russian Ministry has traced the radar signature of the missile and the origin was a unit supplied to Ukraine itself and which remains in its possession. Doubtless when called upon to do so the claim will be authenticated - or not so.

[malaise]

5. You know at the end of the day what we have here are we the pawns

caught in the middle of spy versus spy.

I expect as much truth here as we have received re Ft370.

[JustAnotherGen]

11. I don't know if I agree with that

If we are talking Russia v. Ukraine - I can get with that.

If we are talking Russia v the US - I can't get with that.


We didn't do this.

That said - my zippy dippy hippie mom last night has a theory or two about the first Malaysian flight that just went 'missing' a few months ago. She thinks it's related.

[MoonRiver]

12. Does she have an idea how?

Honestly can't see how they could be connected but it is a weird coincidence.

[JustAnotherGen]

15. My dad was a Green Beret

One of the first - she heard lots of 'pillow talk' over the years. The GB's in the 1960's and 1970's were not the 'boy scouts' of today. It's more the silence and lack of knowledge. She also made the point - "You mean to tell me that between Russia, China and the US we three could not figure this out?" <--- Regarding the missing flight.

Not that we (the US) are culpable - but that intelligence knows more than they are telling us about that.

[MoonRiver]

17. Interesting. Many dots to fill in though.

Hope we know someday what happened to those poor souls.

[panader0]

20. Wow, a hippy dippy mom and a Green Beret dad--I'll bet childhood was interesting

[JustAnotherGen]

21. Ahhh

She "saved" him from himself.

I'm coming up on the three year anniversary of my dad's death. This is who he was (journal at DU2) -

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/JustAnotherGen/29


A quote from that about him:
He's been very vocal these past few years about his anger. You would think that Green Beret is a man of war . . . He's not. He's a pacifist. He told us - no.ingrained in us that our country does things that the powers that be WANT us to believe only other countries do. But if we could turn that aggression to Positive things -we can be great.

[freshwest]

41. Thanks for that JAG. You know my opinion on who should run in 2016...

Just kidding. Still think it's a good idea. You've got all the background and knowledge to deal with the issues...

[zeemike]

50. Your dad was a wise man.

And wise men are enlightened by their experiences...and learn from them.
The unwise will explain away their experiences to hold on to the myths they have been taught,

What TPTB want us to believe will lead us to another cold war with Russia and perhaps a hot one when the PTB decide they can win it...and de populate the world.

[90-percent]

101. totally bitchen phrase zeemike

"And wise men are enlightened by their experiences...and learn from them.
The unwise will explain away their experiences to hold on to the myths they have been taught, "

I'm going to kidnap it and raise it as my own.

-90% Jimmy

[zeemike]

106. You are welcome to it.

I am a believer in open source.

[KT2000]

84. Nice tribute

to your father. And he was so right - wise.

[misterhighwasted]

30. I agree with your mom. I am a hipppy mom/grama also & I believe the same as she does

I presented that theory yesterday.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5252430

"Horrific all around. But if there was a certain target on board that plane...a "hit" & a phone call to the US President. Frightening & only intensified by the lunacy of Putin.
Who was on the Malaysian airliner lost forever (maybe) at sea? What took Malaysia so long to disclose info about that flight?
I'm smelling rats..definitely rats.

And is Malaysia cozy with Russia in reporting the plane tracking & who's on board?
My conspiracy theory. anyway.
Take it for what its worth to you.
------------------------------------------

I'm going with my first instinct & hello to your hippie mom. We grew of age during much different times. but, there was always a war somewhere, also.

[freshwest]

60. Someone posted a link at DU at the time of the other crash. Said Obama brought down that flight.

In order to demonstrate an amazing new war toy and to scare the Russians.

If your zippy dippy hippie mom (I think I love her, by the way) is into CT, she might think this plane was tit for tat. Not saying that is what she thinks, or even in the ballpark, but it's out there in netland.

From the thread with the Tweets it appears the rebels in Ukraine realized very quickly that they'd brought down a civilian plane:

7. Ukrainian security service on their official channel intercepted terrorist Bezler phone which confirms Boeing hit:

Translation:

0:20: A: Just now, just now, "Minera" group downed an airplane. It fell on Yenakivo.
0:26: B: Pilots? Where are the pilots?
0:29: A: We're going now to search and take photos of the wreckage.
0:33: B: How long ago?
0:34: A: About 30 minutes.

0:44: C: Yes, "Major"
0:45: D: From Chernuhino, they downed the plane.
0:48: C: Who?
0:49: C: From Chernuhino post, cossacks that are stationed at Chernukino.
0:56: C: The plane broke up in mid-air, near Petropavlosk mine. First 200 (ed: ?). Found first 200 (ed: ?). Civilian.
1:12: D: So what's going on?
1:15: C: Stupid civilian plane.
1:18: D: Understood. Are there many people?
1:20: C: FUBAR. Wreckage falling right in peoples yards.
1:24: D: What model?
1:26: C: I haven't figured it out yet. Haven't yet gotten to the main debris. I'm still where the first bodies fell.
1:31: C: There's wreckage of internal containers, seats, bodies.
1:35: D: Understood. Are there any weapons?
1:37: C: Nothing at all. Civilian stuff, medical supplies, towels, toilet paper.
1:43: D: Any documents?
1:45: C: Yes. Indonesian student. From Thompson university.

1:52: About that plane shot down near Snezhnovo Torez. It turned out to be a passenger plane. Fell near Grabovo, there's lots of bodies, women and children. Right now the cossacks are inspecting it.
2:03: On TV they are saying AN-26, Ukrainian transport, but are saying it's labeled Malaysian Airlines.
2:12: What was it doing in Ukrainian territory?
2:16: Maybe it was transporting spies. Who knows. It's war.

to ReverendDeuce

More at the link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5253748

Operating on the 'Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out' mindset.

OTOH:

Amazing to me just how on top of things Obama is and how he controls everything so he can do evil around the globe.

I call it the new American Exceptionalism cult from media, etc. If there is something wrong being done, or if it's wrong only in nuance, the Almighty USA did it. We also caused the fall of Rome and made the dinosaurs extinct. Yep, it was American know how!

Still, no disrespect to mom. We are in agreement that things are most likely going on and have gone on, that are like the sightings of angels or devils from the corner of one's vision, that few will believe since it makes it hard to plow through one's day and get anything done. It's a not a good thing to focus upon, unless it's truly time to give it a baleful stare in return to cause it flee one's reality.

[JustAnotherGen]

73. Oh she doesn't think it's tit for tat

But she thinks our intelligence has some kind of knowledge on what happened to that first flight. . . maybe to not cause a panic we aren't being told? Did they want to wait and see what the players on the chess board were going to do next?



And you should hear her on the kids at the border . . . I.E. - "We played war games (note - not drug wars - war games) in South and Central America for decades and now we are shocked that their children are looking for safe harbor?" <-- It's all connected.

And re the idea that Obama had something to do with it . . . that person ought to be ashamed of themselves. And I'm sick and tired of us always being the 'who who did it'. It's not true. Thanks for providing that link.

I fully acknowledge that we do terrible things - just like a lot of other countries. They do terrible things too. And when they do - we ought to be able to call them out on it the same way they throw everything in the garbage can at us. *feeling indignant!*

[JustAnotherGen]

6. Not sure if I understand this fragment here

supplied to Ukraine itself and which remains in its possession

Do you mean that Russia is saying that the 'missile' is still in its possession so it can't be the missile that was used to kill these human beings?

[dipsydoodle]

9. No - the base unit launcher which is one of a number which talk to each other.

The entire system was officially supplied to Ukraine by Russia and the chances are that Kiev already knows exactly which unit fired the missile.

[JustAnotherGen]

16. Thanks - I knew I wasn't reading that correctly

[zeemike]

56. I always ask myself who stands to benefit from this.

Not the separatist for sure, and not Russia...but Kiev does if they can drag the US into it with money and guns...which is the only way it would go, because we would never materially support the separatist even if it was shown to be Kiev that did it...in that case it would just be an accident not terrorism.
We are so easily manipulated it is almost funny.

[stevenleser]

110. If you walk into the street and someone mistakenly runs a red light and hits you, who benefits?

The rebels made a mistake out of negligence. No one is an intended beneficiary.

You need to get out of the way of your own agenda here.

[zeemike]

112. The lawyers who will sue the shit out of him.

But do we go to war with the driver?...or do we use this accident if that is what it is as justification for war?

My fear is that it will, and we will be asked to help...not of course with "boots on the ground" because that would be unpopular, but that is about the military...says nothing about private contractors, money and weapons.

We have a long history of doing that is South America and now it seems we want to take it global, and create another cold or warm war with Russia.

Sorry but I can go along with that...I don't want us to be an empire because empires fall and it is never pretty when they do.

[stevenleser]

113. Again, everything you wrote is wrong.

We're not going to war with Russia or asking this to excuse war with Russia.

And newsflash, Europe doesn't need the US to make the obvious point that Russia has become an outlaw nation engaging in unprovoked war and bullying of their neighbor. Europe is upset with them too.

[zeemike]

117. No it is not wrong it what I see.

And it won't be a war because there are no boots on the ground...that is what a proxy war is and how they work...and we have a long history of it...does the word Contra ring a bell?
And then you use the hypocrisy of saying Russia is doing it not us...when we have just come out of one of our unprovoked wars in Iraq that cost us a trillion dollars when Iraq had nothing to do with 911...and neither did Afganastan...but we used the tragedy to justify it anyway...now how can we with a strait face accuse Russia of unprovoked war?

Russia has become an outlaw nation because we say so...and our media will tell us that...just like they told us all about Saddam and what a monster he was...
And this will drive them to China and the east and once again we will have a cold war to fight and many proxy wars to fund.

[stevenleser]

115. But that has nothing to do with your original point which implies intent in advance in order to

benefit.

It's not surprising to me that you are all over the place with your reasoning because your posits with regards to Russia and Ukraine are simply unsupported and unjustifiable.

[zeemike]

118. It does not imply intent at all.

It implies exploitation of a tragidy...something that is done throughout history, sometimes even a created tragidy...like the burning of the Reichstag.

[ballyhoo]

83. Yep. That's what I thought from the beginning. I

just wonder if there was an assist?

[nilesobek]

114. The rebels get what they want out of this,

if true, because Eastern Ukrainian airspace would become a no man zone. Over the bodies of the dead.

[jeff47]

44. So the Ukranians drove a SAM launcher deep into rebel territory

in order to shoot down a commercial airplane. And then drove it back out of rebel territory before the rebels could catch them.

Yeah. Sure.

Now, the rebels did claim that they captured a "Buk" SAM launcher from Ukraine last week. Take out the "remains in its possession" claim from your story, and things make a lot more sense.

[dipsydoodle]

81. The specific launchers were already there in that territory.

The rebels captured one of them.

[MoonRiver]

4. Black Box is reportedly now in Russia.

Who really believes anybody but the Russians will ever set eyes on that device?

[MohRokTah]

7. Putin is now desperate

There's no altering the fact that citizens from five member nations of NATO were killed.

There will be a reckoning.

[TBF]

8. Reported by whom? nt

[MoonRiver]

10. The Ukranian government reported.

[socialist_n_TN]

23. No bias in that source........

That said, at this point we have no idea exactly what went down. I could see everything from a simple and deadly mistake, to the Ukrainian government shooting down the plane to drag NATO into active fighting on their side, to the US shooting down the plane in order to have an excuse to go to war, to...? And barring another Ed Snowden, we might never know.

[geek tragedy]

32. So, you think it's equally likely that Barack Obama ordered that

attack as it is that the terrorist thug on the ground who bragged about ordering the attack did?

[jeff47]

49. So the Ukrainians launched a large offensive

that nobody is talking about, in order to drive a SAM launcher deep into rebel territory. Then the Ukrainians shot down the plane, and retreated back out of rebel territory. Without the rebels, Ukrainians or civilians saying anything.

Yeah, that's an utterly believable scenario

[The Magistrate]

54. You Are Seriously Off Here, Sir

Honest attachment to workers control and socialism does not require the sort of bloody-minded credulity embodied by imagining this was contrived by the United States to go to war under President Obama, or that it was anything else but separatist puppets of Russia who thought they were shoot at a military transport with a weapon they are not really fully competent to operate. In fact, reflexive 'let's blame America' lines do serious harm to any real prospect for the economic restructurings you want to see. I have seen you say your organization tries to recognize its mistakes and learn from them; it is certainly making one in regard to events in Ukraine, and I hope it comes to recognize and learn from it.

[freshwest]

68. Thank you... Some socialists I know approach nihilism. And the right benefits from their cheering.

[socialist_n_TN]

90. In the case of Ukraine, I trust no one except Barotba........

and they are against ALL of the imperialisms, Russian, American, and European. In addition to this, I am anti-fascist and it is the fascists in Kiev that are the shock troops of the coup and the invasion in the south and east. The Ukrainian army is unreliable and the only ones Kiev can rely on are their "deputized" national guardsmen, who are part of the ultra nationalist to fascist contingent that supported the overthrow of the elected government in a reactionary coup.

As to reflexive "let's blame America" lines, I've lived a LONG time now and I've seen a LOT of American chicanery in foreign policy in order to further the capitalist agenda. I also saw the same thing out of the Stalinist states. So excuse me if I don't believe ANY of it. My first thought is "Who benefits most from this tragedy?" if it was a purposeful attack and not a fuck up. So who benefits most? It looks like Petro might have a chance to get NATO involved now, so I would say he benefits most from this attack.

[The Magistrate]

92. That Is Not Good Enough, Sir

People often benefit from things others have done; the mere fact someone's political position is improved hardly suffices to make the claim you are making. Because you are making the claim, however indirectly you couched it, that the airliner was not shot down by secessionists aided by Russia, but by agency of the Kiev government, or NATO on its behalf. That claim is false, and without any evidential foundation.

For the rest of this, I do not propose to argue with you point by point. Belief that the government in Kiev is somehow 'more fascist' than the government in Moscow, or that the various adventurers and Russian agents who have placed themselves in power in the east of the country are more legitimate than the government in Kiev, is not something drawn from consideration of facts but imposed by preconception.

It would be nice if events in the east of Ukraine were a workers rising against both Moscow and Kiev aiming to establish a workers state, but that is not what is going on, and the thing cannot be judged on the basis of pretending it were. One of the things one has to learn in life is to beware of believing what you want to be true is actually true in some particular instance. When you want very much to see something be so, the temptation to read that into some situation or event can be very strong, and can lead a person into some bad corners. I have had several occasions from which to learn this personally.

"The important thing to remember is that these things happened. They happened even though Lord Halifax says they happened."

[socialist_n_TN]

95. And as I have said several times......

we have no idea exactly who was at fault here. And quite frankly, I'm of the opinion at this time that, whoever was at fault, that it was a giant fuck-up on someone's part. But yes, I have no reason to trust that the Kiev government did NOT shoot down the plane since they were the ones who have the most to gain. The truth is, without another Edward Snowden, we will probably never know. I do know that Barotba is made up of ACTUAL Ukrainian socialists who actually live in the country which is why I believe what they say more than I believe Russia Today or the western MSM or the Kiev coup.

I've followed the Ukraine situation from the beginning and have had MANY discussions about it both on here and with comrades and nothing has changed my opinion that this was a reactionary coup paid for by western Ukrainian oligarchs who used ultra-nationalists, proto-fascists and outright fascists to further their agenda of taking over the country and making billions in profits by turning Ukraine over to European imperialists and the capitalists of the IMF who would also make billions in profits, all on the backs of the working class and poor. Call it a conspiracy or just the laws of capitalism at work, but it's no coincidence that every one of these agreements involves austerity for the people, all to save profitability for the system.

There are some who are advocating for a worker's state in Ukraine and those are the ones that I'm listening to and supporting. At present they're mostly based in the south and eastern part of the country. Ideally as this situation goes on, it will spread into the west also. Organized workers are part of the resistance to the Kiev regime in the south and east. The Maidan plot was NOT worker based. Ergo, since the Kiev government is using the fascists as their shock troops, in classic United Front methodology, the first thing you do is destroy the fascists and then be prepared to turn your weapons on those who are your current allies.

[The Magistrate]

96. I Am Trying To Be As Gentle About This As I Can Be, Sir

But very little of what you say in describing events has much contact with fact, and is expressed in terms which are pure boiler-plate. There is no prospect for a workers state in the Donets, and no one advocating for one is anywhere near power there. I can agree in good measure with the view that what is going on is a scrap over who will have the benefits of exploiting Ukraine, Russia or western financiers, but in that fight there is no left side, only two rights, and so if one is to choose a side, a standard other than who is the left side must be employed. I consider the Russian imperialism more direct and more reactionary, since it aims to reconstitute an old land empire, the most primitive form of large-scale political organization. It is also clear that, in terms of personal liberties, Russia comes off very much second compared to western Europe.

[socialist_n_TN]

100. At least SOME of the southern and eastern resistance is worker based.....

http://www.fifthinternational.org/content/statement-independent-donetsk-miners%E2%80%99-trade-union

That's from the Donetsk miners union. NONE of the western coup was worker based. In the west, the Euro-Maidan protests were fascist controlled from the start and many socialist and anarchist groups were threatened and blocked from joining the protest against Yanukovych. In addition, as soon as they ran off Yanukovych and a third of the elected deputies of the Rada, the fascists started trashing the offices of left groups and trade unionists. We're talking about within a week of taking power. And that didn't surprise me in the least because THAT IS THE TACTICS OF FASCISM!. They ALWAYS go first after the working class organizations, socialists, and communists because they are the ONLY organizations that can effectively counter fascism. It happens everywhere fascism even sniffs power.

As to which of competing imperialisms might be "better", that's the same as the "lesser of two evils" argument that has actually led to the current world crisis of capitalism. IF there is a group that is "left", EVEN IF NONE IN THE MAINSTREAM, IMPERIALIST MEDIA IS TALKING ABOUT THEM, I'm supporting them rather than one rival imperialism over the other, even if one of those imperialisms is PERCEIVED to be the "lesser evil". These are the issues that broke apart the Second International on the eve of WWI. I stand where Lenin and Trotsky did then. That's on the side of workers and AGAINST ALL of the imperial powers. My bourgeoisie is NOT better than your bourgeoisie, no matter their nationality.

[The Magistrate]

102. But Not Enough To Matter, Sir

As your own 'at least SOME' indicates you understand also. In point of fact, the conflict is between two imperialisms with no third force present. If one concentrates one's fire on one, it amounts to support for the other. And there are distinctions between the two.

[socialist_n_TN]

104. RE: your last sentence........

I turn your title back on you. The distinctions between the two imperialisms are "... not enough to matter, Sir". And if the left and working class forces that ARE there are ignored and marginalized and the concentration is on ONLY the imperialist rivalry, then that's a guarantee that the alternatives will NEVER get a hearing. And by hearing, I don't necessarily mean in the MSM in the west or on Russia Today. I'm talking about a hearing by all of the Ukrainian people, east and west.

And please note, I've been extremely careful to NOT "...concentrate one's fire on one..." side. I, and the League for a Fifth International for that matter, have been as vociferous at condemning Russia as we have been at condemning European Union and American imperialism.

And of course I recognize that a lot of the fighters in the south and east aren't perfect. Some are even fascist themselves. Those certainly can never be worked with even in a United Front. However, there's enough resistance in the south and east that's NOT fascist and that CAN be worked with (such as the mine workers) to make an start at an effective resistance to both imperialisms. Those are the ones I will side with every time. Even if it means I must be prepared to at some point in the future to stop supporting those groups. As Trotsky said, "...turn your guns on your UF partners". Right now, MOST of the resistance forces in the south and east are of an anti-fascist nature. That's what ties them together, except for the eastern fascist groups of course which are not a large part of the resistance.

At our recent national conference, my Workers' Power comrades were having one of those off the record bullshit sessions after a business day and I posited that the BEST outcome for the Ukrainian people (not the oligarchs, but the people) was a situation where the rival imperialisms are too scared of WWIII to get actively involved in the actual fighting of each other. Then the anti-fascist resistance has a chance to attempt a works council democracy in the south and east which could hold on long enough so that it spread to the west. I didn't think this outcome was likely, but I did think it was worth supporting, no matter how unlikely. There has been nothing that has changed my opinion since those talks. I don't believe the Ukrainian people, east or west, actually support the fascists, but one set of oligarchs in the west do. The Ukrainian military is very unreliable and the oligarchs are forced to rely on fascist "National Guard" irregulars for the brunt of the work against the Ukrainian resistance in the east. The unreliability of the military has spread to some of the western population too. That's mostly of an "anti-war" nature rather than anti-fascist at this point, but that could easily change as this drags on.

[The Magistrate]

105. I Understand That Viewpoint, Sir

I can certainly see where a person, coming at the thing from certain angles or distances, could sensibly maintain the differences between the two are not worth mentioning. I do not agree, obviously, but that does not mean I cannot respect a different opinion.

I disagree a bit more strongly with your characterization of the situation in both Kiev and the Donets, but see nothing to be gained by rehearsing these in any detail once again. I do strongly reject the claim that 'most of the resistance forces in the south and the east are anti-fascist in nature': that is simply wishful thinking at best. And even were one to accept it for purposes of argument, it would remain the case that all armed action in the east effectively supports Russian imperialism at present, and in the event Russian imperialism succeeds, no possibility will exist in the east of overthrowing it.

I disagree further that your line objects equitably to both sets of imperialists. It does criticize both, but one much more strongly, and certainly more frequently, than the other. In terms of exploiting and thieving, you may forgive me for being unable to see any appreciable differences between the two....

[socialist_n_TN]

107. L5I is an international organization, but .......

the working class in each country is primarily responsible for the bourgeoisie in their own country. Since I'm American, I must critique most harshly the American bourgeoisie. I leave it to the Russian working class, with my solidarity of course, to deal with the Russian bourgeoisie.

I disagree that armed resistance in the east effectively supports Russian imperialism. I would characterize it more in the lines of self-defense. Fascists will kill you if you're a working class activist. If the "3%"ers began to take over governmental structures in the USA, I would most DEFINITELY arm myself more heavily than I currently am because I would know that it would only be a matter of time before they came for me. And if I'm going to die, I will die defending myself to the best of my ability. So I empathize strongly with the miners in Donetz who are arming themselves against the fascists.

[The Magistrate]

109. Clearly, Sir, We Are Not Going To Come To Agreement On All Points

I suggest we leave this as a friendly exchange of views, and look to where we do over-lap for future encounters.

I will not be able to spend anything like so much time here this weekend as I have done yesterday and into the wee hours.

Be well, Sir!

[socialist_n_TN]

111. And you Sir.....

We seem to rarely disagree, but when we do, you definitely make me think and define and refine my arguments.

[Chan790]

116. Borot'ba is explicitly pro-Russian.

They're no more credible of a source than Russia, Ukraine, Left Front, Svoboda, CNN, RT, MSNBC or anybody else.

Back to the old rallying cry of "No eyes but our own!"

[stonecutter357]

63. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/18/sara-firth-resigns-russia-today-lies-anchor_n_5598815.html

[freshwest]

70. Thanks, stonecutter. That gives a different view on them. It's unfortunate.

[TBF]

80. Ah, I asked for some opinons in the socialist group -

I wondered what your take was.

My view is similar to yours. They've been shooting down cargo planes & if they were stupid enough to keep that airspace open for passenger planes then it's just an accident waiting to happen.

Prayers for the families of the victims. What a mess.

[socialist_n_TN]

89. Yeah, I saw where you had locked your thread.........

Sorry I've been pretty busy the last couple of days.

[pinboy3niner]

13. Kiev, Ukraine (CNN) -- [Breaking news alert, 8:18 a.m.]

The missile that hit Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 most likely was fired by pro-Russian separatists inside eastern Ukraine, a preliminary classified U.S. intelligence analysis concluded, according to a U.S. defense official with direct access to the latest information. The official declined to be identified due to the sensitivity of the information. Earlier, a senior U.S. official said the United States concluded that a missile shot down the plane.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/18/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-airlines-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_inthenews

[CTyankee]

18. the coverage of this today on morning joe made me sick at my stomach...

I had to turn it off and go back upstairs and lie down until the nausea passed.

[MoonRiver]

19. Since Morning Jerk said Joe Namath shouldn't be harassed for wearing tortured animals,

I refuse to even glance at that scum program.

[CTyankee]

22. he wasn't the cause today. It was the horror of the story that made me sick...

Mika actually did a fine job covering the story, so I will give credit where credit is due. I noticed Gene Robinson audibly sighing...and the look on his face was devastating...he was having a hard time dealing with the story himself.

[Cha]

24. post #13 has a link.. you could edit your OP.

[OnlinePoker]

25. No, that's impossible.

Terrorists are only brown skinned and worship Allah.

[geek tragedy]

26. Lavrov just admitted his side did it, for all practical purposes.

Attempts to call the plane crash a terrorist act are unacceptable" - Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-28360784

[LisaL]

27. Don't see this statement in your link.

[geek tragedy]

28. scroll down on left hand side

13:02: BBC Monitoring "Attempts to call the plane crash a terrorist act are unacceptable" - Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov.

If anyone thinks he'd be saying this if the Ukrainians had done it . . .

[MohRokTah]

29. Putin is also backpedaling

He's now calling for all parties to lay down arms and come to the table.

[geek tragedy]

31. he's said that before, too little too late, words from Putin are worthless

when he serves up Strelkin to the Hague then we can take him seriously

[MohRokTah]

33. Yep, he needs to completely abandon these terrorists.

I'm pretty sure he needs to get his special operations forces out of Ukraine, too.

[Little Star]

34. I think it was probably shot down by mistake....

A Brief History Of Civilian Planes That Have Been Shot Down

Ukrainian officials say pro-Russian separatists may have shot down the Malaysia Airlines plane that crashed Thursday in eastern Ukraine, killing all 298 people onboard.

It's rare, but not unprecedented, for civilian airliners to be shot down. In fact, it's happened before in Ukraine, just 13 years ago.

Back in 2001, the Ukrainian military accidentally shot down a Russian civilian plane while conducting an exercise on the Crimean Peninsula — the very territory that Russia seized earlier this year, prompting the current crisis in Ukraine.

Here's a list of the deadliest such episodes:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/2014/07/17/332318322/a-brief-history-of-civilian-planes-that-have-been-shot-down

There is no gain for the intentionally shooting down a passenger plane that I can see. Hell, even our Navy has accidentally shot down one.

[wtmusic]

48. "Hell, even our Navy has accidentally shot down one."

Kind of limits the official actions we can take in response, doesn't it?

[Little Star]

55. Yep. For the life of me I can't....

imagine what anyone would gain for purposefully shooting down a passenger plane.

What Putin did wrong was supplying the SAMs to people who don't know how to use them correctly.

[wtmusic]

64. The evidence seems to show it was a mistake.

A really stupid, careless, criminally negligent one.

It also suggests the launcher came from Russia, then after the crash it was smuggled back (minus two missiles) over the border.

From the Mail, FWIW

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696847/They-shouldnt-f-g-flying-There-war-going-Ukraine-intelligence-officials-release-phone-calls-claim-PROVES-Russia-shot-Flight-MH17.html

[MannyGoldstein]

57. Not at all.

Our accidents are different.

[Gore1FL]

65. In fairness:

The one we shot down had a military transponder signature and attempts to hail were made without response. It was also on a course to put it in firing range of the vessel that fired the missile. All of this was in the wake of the attack on the U.S.S. Stark.

I am not suggesting it wasn't a tragedy. I'm not suggesting it wasn't an accident. I'm not suggesting it wasn't unavoidable. At least a hell of a lot of due diligence was put into the failed attempt at identifying Iran Air Flight 655 before the missile was fired--not so much with MH17.

[wtmusic]

71. "A hell of a lot of due diligence", my ass.

You could argue with equal justification we had more tools at hand to make the identification. Instead, we ID'd a 290-passenger Airbus 300 as an F-14 Tomcat without any visual whatsoever.

According to the Iranian government, Vincennes negligently shot down the civilian aircraft: the airliner was making IFF squawks in Mode III (not Mode II used by Iranian military planes), a signal that identified it as a civilian craft, and operators of Vincennes mistook for Mode II.

It's exactly the same, so don't even go there.

[Gore1FL]

76. Your opinion vs the results of the investigation. n/t

[wtmusic]

77. Ah, "the investigation".

Was that the Iranian one, or the American one?

In your opinion, do Americans ever lie?

[Gore1FL]

85. I heard the radio broadcasts. Were they faked?

In your opinion, do Americans always lie?

[wtmusic]

87. You didn't answer my question

but of course I knew you wouldn't.

Americans sometimes lie, and very often to cover their asses when they make a catastrophic mistake like what happened aboard the Vincennes that day.

Both situations are examples of triggerhappy yahoos prioritizing their own safety over hundreds of innocent civilians. If you need to believe fairy tales about a civilian airliner broadcasting on a military frequency (if that's even possible) to feel better about America, that's your prerogative.

[Gore1FL]

88. Why would I answer hyperbole? n/t

[jimlup]

35. Russia is not an honest broker in this investigation

I'm concerned that the black boxes are headed to Russia.

[LisaL]

36. Thinking the boxes are headed anywhere appears to be optimistic.

They might have not been found.

[jeff47]

52. The bright orange things in the middle of the burning field.

Not that hard to find.

[jimlup]

61. Pretty sure I heard a report that they were found and headed to Russia

It was on NPR but I don't have the link.

However, on 2nd thought I don't think the black boxes matter that much. As both sides now seem to agree that it was a missile that brought down the plane. Not surprisingly each side is blaming to other. But the hard evidence of who was responsible will come from radar and voice communications not available on the black box data.

CNN is currently reporting Ukraine has supplied an intercepted radio transmission that implicates pro-Russian separatists. Russia will say it was Ukrainians to try and add reasonable doubt. It would be an interesting study in propaganda if it were not so horrible.

[conservaphobe]

37. Yep. And that's all the confirmation a decent human being needs.

Anyone else is a scumbag with an agenda.

[JayhawkSD]

38. Seriously? You aren't really watching CNN are you? nt

[geek tragedy]

40. you can find the US government's conclusions on any number of

legitimate sources.

There are no legitimate sources, or people, pointing the finger away from Putin and Strelkov at this point.

[JayhawkSD]

42. Well, probably so.

But CNN? If there are other sources, cite them. CNN is a farce. It's like discussing the Israel/Palestine war by citing the Disney Channel.

I'm not following the "airliner down" story yet. It is still all speculation, opinion and accusation. I will tune in when facts begin to emerge.

[onenote]

75. If you're not following it how will you know when "facts begin to emerge"?

And what specifically, will you consider to be a credible source?

[JayhawkSD]

97. A number of blogs like Sic Semper Tyrannis

which is run by a bunch of retired military guys. German, English and other European media.

I'm not following it because these sources aren't saying much about it yet. Unlike the American media, which I mostly ignore, they do not engage in speculation or rumor mongering.

[onenote]

98. tried to find sic semper tyrannies but couldn't

i'd like to check it out. can you provide a link or url?

[JayhawkSD]

99. Not really. If you're hanging out here, you won't like it there.

[onenote]

119. Interesting response.

But if you don't want to share, you don't want to share.

[William769]

39. All the propagandist in the world won't be able to stop this.

[maddezmom]

45. But we will still see them on DU trying

[greatauntoftriplets]

51. And failing, judging by efforts so far.

[MohRokTah]

53. Even people who used to be somewhat open to hearing the RT propaganda...

have been railing aginst it in this instance.

Only those who hold Putin up as the be all end all of righteousness seem to be falling for the bullshit on this one

[morningfog]

46. Well, not quite. It is not yet officially an act of terrorism.

It is officially an intentional act by the separatists, if the US source is accurate (which if very likely is). However, there is evidence that the separatists may have mistaken the target, thinking it a legitimate military target.

It doesn't lessen the pain and suffering felt by the victims' families, but should affect the response.

[Nitram]

47. I doubt that the black box can enlighten us about anything...

...other than whether the crash was caused by a malfunction in the aircraft itself. It certainly can't tell us who launched the missile.

[IronGate]

58. No, but US satellites using triangulation can,

as seems to be the case here.

[mike_c]

59. oh, the T-word, so beloved of simple minded media and so, so profitable for the MIC....

They's terra-ists EVERYWHERE, Mabel!

[MohRokTah]

62. It's a useful tool.

In this case, it will be used in public proclamations unless Putin agrees to back down.

You probably will not hear it out of any administration official's mouth, but I'm sure it's being tossed around in back room and telephone conversations because of how useful the label has become.

Putin has painted himself into a corner and the "T" word can come out easily and be readily accepted on a global basis if he doesn't back off his bullshit.

[Shoonra]

66. This changes the theories about the first airliner.

Now that we know that this Malaysian airliner was shot down by a missile, we have something that supports a theory for explaining the disappearance of the previous Malaysian airliner that vanished, presumably in the Indian Ocean, a few months back.

[MohRokTah]

67. No, we don't. eom

[Codeine]

69. The two aren't even vaguely related

beyond the fact that they were both flown by the same company.

[misterhighwasted]

74. My conspiracy theory actually supports yours. We only know what they tell us.

Anything else must come from our own deductions.
My theory is just mine of course, but I further question just WHO was on the passenger list in both Malaysian airliners.

Yes, a few simple rogue Pro-Russian dufus's could have brought this plane down, but considering the missing Malaysian plane and now this one..well it is worth looking for dots to connect.

If yesterday's disaster ends up with questions, fingers pointed, & leads to follow, yet NO answer to any of them, then my suspicions become as correct as any other.

[onenote]

78. So let me get this straight

You think that the same folks who figured out a way to make a Malaysian airliner en route from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing essentially disappear without a trace turned around and decided to take down a second Malaysian airliner, this one flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, and did so by firing a missile at it in the middle of the day in a war zone.

And this is the only way the perpetrators of these two allegedly related acts could find to take out the people that they were allegedly targeting.

Wow. Just wow.

[misterhighwasted]

82. well thats just a theory of course & i don't have all the facts

You can base your conclusions on what has been reported & assume what is obvious as you see it. However my belief that there are more layers to the story is mine to believe. Neither of us have evidence nor answers to prove nor disprove either at this point. I will never be confident that the public is told the truth in matters of government. Ours as well as others.

There is far more to know as to both Malaysian disasters to conclude anything, but my theory, in its most basic form simply asks the question as to whether the passenger lists offer clues for a more sinister connect. I don't doubt that something of that nature exists. We are privy to very little.

[reorg]

79. preliminary, classified, most likely ...

NOW I am convinced.

[HereSince1628]

91. Terrorism is done for the leverage that fear of terrorism produces

I am not ready to accept that separatists wanted to terrorize the international community.

They have provoked international condemnation of themselves, which will subsequently strengthen the Kiev government's military relationship with the West. It seems completely at odds with their goal.

I can't say what happened with an certainty, but I'm open to the idea that really poor organization, command/control, networking of the needed ancillary technology--ability to detect and the squawk of a commercial aircraft--and insufficient discipline to a meaningful mission plan contributed to a very costly mistake for the separatists' cause.

[BainsBane]

93. Sorry, i have to wait to see what RT says about this

(not really)

[MohRokTah]

94. .

[randr]

103. Any right wing nuts calling Putin a great leader today?

[WinkyDink]

108. U.S. Intelligence has been compromised in perception, at least, for some time now. WMD's, anyone?

NOT that this determination isn't the blessed truth; just that sadly, the U.S. has cried "Wolf!" before, depending upon the result we wanted.