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Fri Jul 18, 2014, 10:54 AM

“Political correctness”: decoding a vicious, pernicious code word

I always cringe when I hear the phrase “political correctness” being used. It’s a deeply coded phrase, and what it encodes is a stubborn, neoconservative cultural politics, a politics of entitlement and disrespect. And yet that politics is so deeply coded that one encounters the phrase being used by people who should know better; and maybe they will learn to avoid the phrase, if they take the time to get caught up on its context and complexity. If I never see it being taken out and waved around in public discourse again, it will be too soon.

...

More plain-spoken versions of this definition appear as ripostes to a diatribe against political correctness that was published (unsurprisingly enough) on the Richard Dawkins Foundation website:

“Political Correctness” – Buzzword used to express the absurd notion that the majority is being dominated by the minorities. (foundationist)

Political correctness is formalised good manners. It has been a benefit to society. Before it became influential it was common to see overt racism, sexism, homophobia, jokes about the disabled and so on. Fortunately a culture of respect for diversity developed and with it a culture of disrespect for rudeness – political correctness. … The term ‘political correctness’ can be used as a verbal weapon by those who want to do extreme things, things which would attack equality and human rights. When others complain, the response ‘that’s just political correctness’ is supposed to be a conversation stopper, because political correctness is supposed to be wrong. Complaining about political correctness is as absurd as complaining about good manners. The response ‘that’s just political correctness’ usually translates as ‘that’s just being polite’. (Zara)


In other words, “political correctness” is a nasty way to describe talking nicely, as though talking nicely is nasty. This rhetorical duplicity, coupled with the privileged, dominant positions from which pronouncements on political correctness typically come, has made the phrase “political correctness” slippery, robust, and insidious. The phrase thus provides a present-day example of “political speech and writing” as “the defense of the indefensible,” as criticized by George Orwell, in his 1946 essay “Politics and the English language.” The phrase “political correctness” is a perfect example of a phrase whose cryptic complexity lets it smuggle into one’s speech or writing a formidable freight of covert (and perhaps, sometimes, unintended) meanings that can detract from or even derail the point of a statement in which it’s used, when it’s not being openly used to justify oppression.

Amidst the flame wars, troll rampages, and other hostilities that attend a digital mediascape much more populous and interactive than it was in the mid-1990s, it is a tragedy of English vocabulary and public discourse that one of the main progressive take-away points from the “political correctness” furore – that we be courteous, thoughtful, sensitive, inclusive, and above all respectful in our language – has been lost, body-snatched by a sneaky and vicious code word for the privileged, entitled, and bigoted to claim not only license but even moral high ground for their vituperative sound and fury.

http://academicalism.wordpress.com/2012/10/12/political-correctness-decoding-a-vicious-pernicious-code-word/

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Reply “Political correctness”: decoding a vicious, pernicious code word (Original post)
redqueen Jul 2014 OP
MohRokTah Jul 2014 #1
etherealtruth Jul 2014 #2
Louisiana1976 Jul 2014 #105
OLDMADAM Jul 2014 #228
Name removed Jul 2014 #132
MohRokTah Jul 2014 #133
Bohunk68 Jul 2014 #216
CBGLuthier Jul 2014 #3
seabeyond Jul 2014 #5
CBGLuthier Jul 2014 #8
Louisiana1976 Jul 2014 #106
eridani Jul 2014 #147
Tetris_Iguana Jul 2014 #189
eridani Jul 2014 #192
Tetris_Iguana Jul 2014 #193
eridani Jul 2014 #205
Tetris_Iguana Jul 2014 #225
eridani Jul 2014 #231
Tetris_Iguana Jul 2014 #233
SidDithers Jul 2014 #223
Springslips Jul 2014 #217
Tetris_Iguana Jul 2014 #226
redqueen Jul 2014 #220
Number23 Jul 2014 #230
redqueen Jul 2014 #237
seabeyond Jul 2014 #179
seabeyond Jul 2014 #4
nomorenomore08 Jul 2014 #177
ieoeja Jul 2014 #6
redqueen Jul 2014 #11
Algernon Moncrieff Jul 2014 #32
HERVEPA Jul 2014 #50
Algernon Moncrieff Jul 2014 #162
HERVEPA Jul 2014 #201
Algernon Moncrieff Jul 2014 #203
ieoeja Jul 2014 #78
Algernon Moncrieff Jul 2014 #166
greiner3 Jul 2014 #204
ieoeja Jul 2014 #238
The Wizard Jul 2014 #79
hunter Jul 2014 #7
redqueen Jul 2014 #13
Live and Learn Jul 2014 #67
sufrommich Jul 2014 #9
derby378 Jul 2014 #10
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nomorenomore08 Jul 2014 #195
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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 10:55 AM

1. "Political Correctness" is what my mama always called "being polite". eom

 

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #1)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 10:57 AM

2. Exactly ...

Being "required" to be polite and respectful is not a burden

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Response to etherealtruth (Reply #2)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 03:30 PM

105. True. It's always best and makes things go better.

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Response to etherealtruth (Reply #2)

Sun Jul 20, 2014, 12:22 AM

228. "Being required", is interesting, in and of itself..

Required, denotes control, and that may be the real rub.. Perhaps "preferred", or "expected" would be a more acceptable position.. But to demand compliance, is what chaps my ass, not that I would ever use any of those obnoxious words or phrases..

By demanding compliance has driven the true bigots even further underground.. In an effort to control behavior through the enforcement of coded words, the assholes are easily avoiding detection.. Let them speak and let the listener hear the message, unfettered.. Banning words is really no better than burning books, in my humble opinion..

That is my 2 cents..

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #1)


Response to Name removed (Reply #132)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 06:26 PM

133. That's a steaming load of bovine excrement.

 

Freedom of speech does not mean freedom not to be criticised.

Nobody from the government is going to arrest you for being rude, and make no mistake, you are being rude.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #1)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 08:48 AM

216. Yup! Although my grandma

put it just a tad different, she called it, "good manners."

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 11:04 AM

3. I saw it used earlier today, here on DU

to deride the hiding of a thread with the word for a female dog in a joke. I agree that about 99% of the time what some call PC is merely being polite and considerate of other's feelings and why anyone thinks being polite is wrong is beyond me

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Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #3)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 11:13 AM

5. ya. patting the guy on the head in commiseration that he had a post hidden

 

for calling a woman the b word. oh po baby, cant call women the b word. life is too not fair.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #5)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 11:20 AM

8. That was the one

People can not see that we need to evolve in our language and our behavior. Sure, there was a time when these words flowed freely and without thought as to their ability to hurt. People also used to use racial slurs casually too and few people who matter would argue for the right to use those words today. but some so-called progressives still think it is 1950 when it comes to women.

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Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #8)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 03:35 PM

106. Exactly. Also, people are more sensitive today than they were years ago.

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Response to Louisiana1976 (Reply #106)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 06:49 PM

147. Wrong. There are just more categories of people it's not OK to insult n/t

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Response to eridani (Reply #147)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 10:20 PM

189. No people are just more sensitive in general.

Life years ago was so tough with death, disease, and general poverty that people had bigger things to worry about than his or her feelings that day.

Thankfully our society is generally much more prosperous; but it's made us fat, dumb, and superficial.

That and the negative narcissistic effects of the "every child deserves an award for participating" self esteem movement... But I digress.

Not to say that there's nothing to say for common courtesy in public spheres. Of course one should be mindful not to be menacing to others, but there's a big gulf between common courtesy and the immolation hack job that the PC movement attempts to conduct on gritty individualism and free thought.

No one has the right to be free from merely being offended.





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Response to Tetris_Iguana (Reply #189)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 10:30 PM

192. If your standard of comparison is the Middle Ages, of course we are more sensitive

Insulting people for membership in any group is hardly "gritty individualism." It's just shitty manners.

If we're so much more sensitive, how come people are much more tolerant now about public references to sex? Come to think of it, shaming people for ethnicity or gender has become more taboo over the same time frame that talking about sex has become less so. It's only conservatives who are unhappy that it isn't still the other way around.

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Response to eridani (Reply #192)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 10:49 PM

193. No actually I'm talking about a couple of generations ago.

As my grandma says, back then people in working class neighborhoods of differing ethnicities called each other by stereotypes and insults.

You didn't take it personally cause that's just how it was.

As to comparing acceptance of gritty language about ethnicity to the same about sex, those concepts are on the opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to open vs closed societal aspects.

But anyways, politeness is mostly people lying to each other to get along whereas an honest society expresses those thoughts that are now becoming more taboo.

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Response to Tetris_Iguana (Reply #193)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 02:48 AM

205. Ethnic insults becoming moretaboo is a great thing. Just like talking about sex becoming less taboo

A couple of generations ago, Jim Crow was in full swing. Is that what you are trying to defend here?

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Response to eridani (Reply #205)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 11:40 PM

225. We're talking about language not laws.

Jim Crow is without exception wrong, btw.

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Response to Tetris_Iguana (Reply #225)

Sun Jul 20, 2014, 03:27 AM

231. Lanugage reflects society and its laws n/t

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Response to eridani (Reply #231)

Sun Jul 20, 2014, 09:53 AM

233. Not always.

The law merely reflects the attitudes and culture of the ruling class and not the under-societies.

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Response to Tetris_Iguana (Reply #193)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 01:32 PM

223. ...




Sid

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Response to Tetris_Iguana (Reply #189)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 10:19 AM

217. You are talking about the day when....

Having the wrong form of Christianity got you burned at the stake? Yes, yes. Those generations were certainly not 'superficial.'.

*eyeroll*

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Response to Springslips (Reply #217)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 11:43 PM

226. Actually from their perspective they legitimately thought they were doing the right thing.

It wasn't until the scientific revolution that western civilization could prove burning witches is a legitimately crazy enterprise.

It's all about context.

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Response to Tetris_Iguana (Reply #189)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 11:42 AM

220. Welcome to DU

Enjoying your stay?

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Response to Tetris_Iguana (Reply #189)

Sun Jul 20, 2014, 03:26 AM

230. You call it "people being more sensitive"

I call it more black, Asian, Hispanic, gay, disabled etc. people saying "this shit is offensive to us and we won't put up with anymore."

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Response to Number23 (Reply #230)

Sun Jul 20, 2014, 10:19 AM

237. Exactly. It is people getting fed up and saying they won't just accept it anymore.nt

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Response to Louisiana1976 (Reply #106)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 09:24 PM

179. people are tired of continually being insulted for no reason but the manner borned. horrible,

 

i know.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 11:12 AM

4. i am in the maher thread. purposely offensive to offend then offended when the insulted are offended

 

the man does not like women and has clearly come thru on his "jokes" about women.

same with the "political correctness" bullshit.

people know those words are offensive and merely want to use them anyway, then cry pc.

you know. if you want to be an asshole, at least take the accusation of being an asshole.

people want their "free speech" in acceptance. not only do they get to say and do the offensive. those they offend are suppose to shut the fuck up and not decry the offense.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #4)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 09:17 PM

177. They seem to have no idea what "free speech is a two-way street" really means.

Or they're simply too self-absorbed to care.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 11:17 AM

6. Conservatives love 99% of Political Correctness

 


"America is the greatest nation on Earth."

"Thank you, and God Bless America."

"I love children."

Standing during the National Anthem. The National Anthem before every sporting event. Singing God Bless America on Sunday's during the 7 inning stretch. Pledging your allegience to the flag over and over and over again because apparently there's a fucking time limit on that pledge.

These are some of the most virulently enforced examples of political correctness. Step out of line on one of these, and you can kiss your political career goodbye.


This guy used to have a complete online book based on that very point. It was really humorous.

http://rackjite.com/web/politically_correct.htm


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Response to ieoeja (Reply #6)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 11:21 AM

11. He actually called that "conservative correctness".

I stopped reading when he blamed inclusive language and considerate behavior as the reason people don't call themselves liberals / vote for the GOP.

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Response to ieoeja (Reply #6)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:19 PM

32. Both sides of the political spectrum manipulate language to further their agendas

Thus, a conservative is "Pro-Life", not "Anti-abortion." They are not "fortunate", they are "blessed." A progressive is "Pro-choice", not "Pro-abortion". I could go on, but you get the picture.

I've voted for Democrats and supported various progressive causes throughout my life. I also fly an American flag in front of my home, and I stand during the National Anthem. The difference, I think, between myself and most conservatives is that I don't lose my mind if my fellow citizens don't do these things. On the other hand, if my daughter's school wants to have a Holiday concert in which Hymns are sung, or a Nativity and a Menorah are placed in a lot near city hall, I don't feel a burning need to phone the ACLU.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #32)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:46 PM

50. Totally false equivalence.

 

"Thus, a conservative is "Pro-Life", not "Anti-abortion." They are not "fortunate", they are "blessed." A progressive is "Pro-choice", not "Pro-abortion". I could go on, but you get the picture. "

Pro-choice is exactly correct. Pro-abortion is not. Most pro-choice people wish there were fewer abortions.

Pro-Life is not correct, as most of them don't give a shit about the baby after (s) is born. Anti-choice is the correct term.

And, by the way, you clearly don't give a shit about the separation of church and state, nor understand the difficulty for those not part of the majority religion(s).

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #50)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 07:48 PM

162. Back when, news organizations reported on "Pro Abortion" and "Anti Abortion" politics.

The reference being to the legality of Abortion, rather than the procedure itself. Conservatives (in the late 70s IIRC) decided that they were being unfairly treated by the media and wanted to rebrand: hence, they were no longer "anti-abortion", they were "Pro-Life". There are some interesting (though somewhat slanted) articles on Wikipedia that discuss political framing and terminology controversies in the abortion debate.

The First Amendment is many shades of grey -- not black, not white. There is a world of difference between not being offended by a Nativity in the public square and not giving a s*** about the SOC&S. Someone who didn't care about the SOC&S would advocate for a faith-based interpretation of marriage (which I do not) or would advocate for teaching creation in schools (again, I do not). While I occasionally do support stoning, it's the exception, not the rule.

As for the difficulties of those not part of majority religions - I'm not a member of the majority religion.

By the way, don't attack posters - attack posts. It's the way to make DU suck less.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #162)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 12:38 AM

201. I've been here over a decade, you three months.

 

No lectures on how to behave please.
My kids wound up with the short end of the stick due to not wanting to sing about Jesus Christ the Savior in the choir.
That stuff does not belong in a public school, period!

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #201)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 02:08 AM

203. Longevity gives DUers license to be rude? Fascinating....

My kids have played "Amazing Grace" and "Ode to Joy" in band and symphony. Our neighborhood did not morph into "The Handmaid's Tale" as a result.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #32)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:46 PM

78. You know what schools do in Liberal Chicago at Christmas time?

 


They hold Christmas pageants. They put up a Christmas tree. And they give out Christmas presents.

But they are also inclusive of other religions as well. The larger culture does not denigrate those who are not the right type. So they can do this in big, bad Liberal Chicago. Because nobody gets hurt.

The reason you see these things challenged in the Bible Belt is because Bible Belt religion is abusive. Catholics are "papists who worship the antichrist in Rome". Muslims are "sand niggers who worship a pedophile." Atheists are "worshipers of Satan and incapable of morality."

You put up with enough of that shit, and see if you remain so sanguine about them shoving their religion down your fucking throat. You take enough abuse and maybe you'll stop making fun of those who fight back against it.

Or at least stop feeling smug superiority over the abused.


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Response to ieoeja (Reply #78)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 08:00 PM

166. So, to be clear, tolerating a Menorah or a Nativity = smug superiority over the abused?

Yeah...sorry. Not seeing it.

Are you assuming that I live in the Bible Belt or are you saying the Bible Belt is the only place these things are challenged? I'm not snarking -- I genuinely don't see where you are coming from there. As to the rest -- I can find those attitudes in rural Georgia; I can find them in suburban Fort Lauderdale; I can find them in Fresno, and I can find them in Boston.

But you are correct: personally, I think the ACLU has bigger fish to fry than whether someone wants to have a prayer before a football game or whether Smallville wants to display a Nativity. JMHO, YMMV

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #166)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 02:28 AM

204. "I think the ACLU has bigger fish to fry than whether someone wants to have a prayer before a footba

 

But Freedom From Religion Foundation, FFRF, takes on so many similar cases that the ACLU can't because of the enormous costs in trying to stem the United States of Theocracy from becoming a reality.

They do a lot of great good and if you were to have a few 'extra' dollars, here's their website;

http://ffrf.org/

"The nonprofit FFRF works to educate the public on matters relating to nontheism, and to promote the constitutional principle of separation between church and state. FFRF is the nation's largest association of freethinkers (atheists, agnostics and skeptics) with over 20,000 members.

Since 1978, FFRF has acted on countless violations of the separation of state and church, and has won many significant complaints and important lawsuits to end state/church entanglements.

Won’t you join us in our critical work to promote freethought and defend the separation between government and religion?"

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #166)

Mon Jul 21, 2014, 10:09 AM

238. Maybe you're just a really lousy writer.

 


I also fly an American flag in front of my home, and I stand during the National Anthem. The difference, I think, between myself and most conservatives is that I don't lose my mind if my fellow citizens don't do these things. On the other hand, if my daughter's school wants to have a Holiday concert in which Hymns are sung, or a Nativity and a Menorah are placed in a lot near city hall, I don't feel a burning need to phone the ACLU.



You are equating Nationalistic bullying with the opposition to State/Church bullying. You describe the former as "los(ing) my mind" and the latter as "a burning need".

That is displaying smug superiority over the abused who oppose State/Church bullying. It is displaying it rather blatantly. If that is not what wished to express, then you did a piss poor job of expressing yourself.


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Response to ieoeja (Reply #6)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:53 PM

79. If truth be told

I always say under Zeus instead of under god. It makes people twitch.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 11:20 AM

7. Doublespeak is a common right wing tactic.

"Less is more" economic policies (lower taxes for the wealthy, "austerity" for everyone else), "bad is good" (that greed and hoarding are good for the economy), "good is bad" (political correctness is a fault), Fox News is "fair and balanced," climate change denial, etc., etc., etc..

I think it's all calculated by the owners of this society and their lackeys in mass media.

Our nation is a plutocracy.

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Response to hunter (Reply #7)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 11:23 AM

13. Exactly. Seeing that agenda pushed here grinds my gears. nt

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Response to hunter (Reply #7)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:18 PM

67. +1 nt

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 11:20 AM

9. Excellent OP! nt

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 11:21 AM

10. I think Steve Zara pointed out the major flaw with political correctness

It is "formalised." And as he also said, "The more serious problem was a version of political correctness which insisted that ANY diversity should be respected. It was mixed up with cultural relativism. That is the danger."

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Response to derby378 (Reply #10)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 11:25 AM

14. That makes no sense.

In every movement, with any idea, there are those who go to extremes. That doesn't prove anything special about consideration and inclusivity, or any other idea or movement.

Whether it's "formalised" or not makes a difference why? (And what does that even mean?)

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Response to redqueen (Reply #14)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 11:36 AM

16. I insist on your freedom to misbehave

Misbehaving means you run the risk of offending some societal norm, this is true. But it also gives you the possibility of making people see things in a different light. That's one reason we enjoy comics so much - they challenge us to see the world through different eyes, even absurd ones.

I'm not lobbying for some unabashed right to insult people based on gender, color, or creed. I'm simply lobbying for the ability to offend those who need to be offended. And thus, I leave myself open to be offended as well if I require it. I take the risk that there's a plank in my eye when I point out the splinter in someone else's.

Perhaps it's just orneriness, but I like to think of it as well-meaning orneriness.

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Response to derby378 (Reply #16)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 11:52 AM

17. I get what you're saying, but entertainers are a different story.

People posting here may think they're kindred spirits with Lenny Bruce or George Carlin, but nobody signed up here to see their act. This is a progressive board, not a comedy club stage. Not someone's living room. Not a bar. When entertainers are on stage they have license to break social mores. The audience expects this and it is in a context which enables people to opt in rather than have to tolerate shit they shouldn't have to. Similarly when we're at home or around friends we can expect to behave in a more relaxed manner wherein the people present pretty much all know each others' sensibilities and are less likely to encounter rudeness of a level that they're not comfortable with.

On this board we have a lot of freedom. We can curse as much as we like. We can post NSFW stuff and link to it too (though the expectation that it be labeled as such seems to have been lost somewhere along the way). The expectation that we not tolerate bigoted language isn't asking a whole hell or a lot. It's not some huge burden. Its certainly not an assault on freedom much less anything to do with "freedom of speech" or "censorship".


Oops went off on a rant there...

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Response to redqueen (Reply #17)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 09:51 PM

182. "Rant" or not, this is one of your best posts that I've read in a while. You draw the lines

perfectly between "public" and "private" and what is proper decorum for each. Really, it should be somewhat common-sensical, but we both know how many people either lack common sense or simply "play dumb."

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Response to redqueen (Reply #14)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 11:54 AM

18. For the part about "insisting any diversity should be respected", consider this:

We questioned the Metropolitan Police Service about the failure to prosecute for FGM in the UK. They said that it was difficult to get victims, who tended to be young girls, to come forward. They told us they were looking at ways to provide support and prosecute without having to rely solely on the victim's testimony.[57] We asked them whether they collaborated with social services to ensure that at-risk girls were placed on the Child Protection Register. They were not aware of this ever happening for referrals they received.[58] Nimco Ali, an anti-female genital mutilation activist, suggested that political correctness was preventing police and other professionals—teachers, social workers, the NHS—from stepping in, and that the UK must stop "treading on cultural eggshells".[59] Dr Purna Sen of the London School of Economics told us that:

Cross-cultural conversations on violence against women and girls can suffer from excessive deference to difference and diversity or an aggressive sense of cultural superiority [...] Dialogues on child marriage, crimes of 'honour', dowry, female genital mutilation and many other forms of violence often become tangled in angst about interference in the cultural norms of others.[60]
...
We were shocked to discover that there are estimated to be 20,000 girls at risk of female genital mutilation within the UK. Whilst it is beyond our remit to comment on domestic policy, we believe that—as it stands—the UK's credibility in calling to end the practice overseas is undermined by the failure to tackle the problem at home. Witnesses recommended that the UK must put aside political correctness and adopt a far more robust, cross-agency approach, where the police proactively track girls at risk of female genital mutilation and step in to prevent parents having the procedure performed on their daughter(s). We commend these recommendations and urge the Government to act upon them. We were appalled to discover that, despite 148 referrals of female genital mutilation cases in the past four years, police and social services do not place at-risk girls on the Child Protection Register. This must change.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmselect/cmintdev/107/10708.htm


That is, I think, the kind of thing Zara was thinking about.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #18)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 11:58 AM

19. That's not political correctness, nor a result of it, though.

That's simply a refusal to recognize the rights of the child.

Respecting other cultural beliefs is great, unless those beliefs involve oppressing people. My obligation to respect your culture ends where your fist meets anyone's face, so to speak.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #19)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:05 PM

23. But we see that an anti-FGM activist did call it 'political correctness'

'It' being the hesitation of authorities to step in and monitor the girls who looked at risk of abuse by their parents. The 'political correctness' is someone saying "we must make allowances for this family's cultural traditions". The police etc. are not doing the harm themselves, but they are failing to prevent it.

And while we all agree FGM must be stopped, male circumcision is a highly disputed area, where cultural beliefs and what it means to the children really get tangled. As DU threads on it show.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #23)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:14 PM

26. They can call it whatever they like. It's just used to push an agenda.

Enabling child abuse isn't being "politically correct" any more than simply being polite and considerate and inclusive.

As for male infant circumcision, I wonder if anyone labels my or anyone else's efforts to educate people about that barbaric practice as us being 'politically correct'... or is it the people who reflexively defend the practice who are being 'politically correct'? See? It makes no sense. The stupid phrase is just being used to push an agenda. Every time.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #26)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:21 PM

34. All words are "just used to push an agenda"

In this case, the activist is using it to "push an agenda" with which we agree. I don't regard what Nimco Ali said as 'vicious' or 'pernicious'.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #34)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:24 PM

37. I don't think his *goal* is vicious or pernicious.

I find his willingness to conflate the conservative term used for politeness and inclusivity with the habit that all kinds of people (on the left and right) have of excusing and enabling this and many other forms of abuse.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #37)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 10:13 PM

185. +1

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Response to redqueen (Reply #26)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 03:02 PM

95. but a further problem with the example of circumcision is that it is foundational to

Judaism. Things can get ugly at a certain point in that discussion. Which is why I don't discuss it. Ever.

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #95)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 03:12 PM

98. And ritual nicks on the clitoral hood are part of some other religion,

but those are banned. As they should be, because bodily integrity is a human right.

And the fourteenth amendment includes an equal protection clause that I don't think falls apart 'because religious tradition'.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #98)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 03:27 PM

104. well, as I said...I really don't discuss it...

I've seen too many awful fights and too many people get hurt feelings...

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #23)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 10:01 PM

184. The use of the phrase is still misguided. "Political correctness" has become such a generic

all-purpose buzzword that it's nearly meaningless, in practical terms. "Cultural relativism" is a little better, but still often misused.

Otherwise I agree that there should be no "cultural" excuses allowed in the legal fight against FGM.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #18)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 05:01 PM

125. I can understand Zara's point.

 

When I was in Edmonton, I ended up in a discussion about female genital mutilation and expressed my abhorrence of the practice. One of the feminist women with whom I was discussing the issue forcefully derided me for my American cultural elitism, and criticized me for having the hubris to tell other cultures what they should and should not do.

Is that an example of "excessive deference to difference and diversity?" I don't know. I'm still puzzled by that woman's motivations in attacking my stance on FGM.

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #125)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 10:17 PM

186. Yeah, I would think "telling people what to do" is pretty well justified when it comes to mutilation

of the human body for no valid medical reason.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #186)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 05:56 AM

207. But what you just described applies to male circumcision too

and that gets very complicated - one religion demands it, another expects it, and it's been very common in some countries for members of a third. It's the lasting effects that make a difference - for FGM, they're really awful, but for circumcision, there doesn't appear to be a lasting problem. When a German court said there should be no non-medical circumcision, there was a big controversy.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #207)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 04:48 PM

224. I'm not a fan of male circumcision either, even if it's nowhere near the same thing

in practical terms. I expect the religions who practice foreskin removal will take generations, if not centuries, to catch up with the rest of the world, unfortunately.

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Response to derby378 (Reply #10)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 11:31 AM

15. Formalized behavior is simply a layman's term for 'cultural mores'

Formalized behavior is simply a layman's term for 'cultural mores'-- which is part and parcel of the human condition when we interact with more than one individual on a social level. It's not a problem at all; indeed, it's part of the historical and human process...

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #15)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 03:41 PM

108. +1

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #15)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 10:27 PM

191. +2

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 11:22 AM

12. tellingly, the same people who bandy that phrase about

 

will also bleat like scared sheep whenever they encounter phrases like "white privilege" and will be the first to play the "not all men!" card.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #12)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:26 PM

73. They have a name

 

"Republicans"

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #73)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 03:43 PM

110. True that.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #73)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 10:18 PM

187. Most of them are Republican/conservative/right-leaning. But not all. n/t

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #12)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 03:19 PM

100. +1,000,000,000

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #12)


Response to Name removed (Reply #150)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 07:22 PM

151. You A Special Little Snowflake, Fella, Ain'tcha?

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #151)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 07:28 PM

157. It's funny how snowflakes are all supposed to be unique...

 

but special snowflakes all seem identical.

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Response to Name removed (Reply #150)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 07:22 PM

152. No it is not like that.

 

Welcome to DU.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #152)


Response to geek tragedy (Reply #12)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 10:20 PM

188. What they don't realize is they have their own, equally arbitrary version of "political correctness"

and are usually just as quick to take offense, if not more so. So yeah, they're hypocrites.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 11:59 AM

20. Yes. For example, substituting "spring spheres" for "Easter eggs"

is simple politeness towards those who are not Christian, and it is in no way an example of "political correctness gone mad" (whoops, make that "political correctness gone mentally challenged".

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #20)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:03 PM

21. It's an example of made-up bullshit. Propaganda of the conservative, fox news variety.

Thanks for staying true to form and being a fine example once again.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #21)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:05 PM

24. Seattle school renames Easter eggs 'Spring Spheres'

http://mynorthwest.com/11/459668/Seattle-school-renames-Easter-eggs-Spring-Spheres

Why would anyone have an issue with this? Surely "spring spheres" is a more inclusive term?

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #24)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:17 PM

27. They're not spheres.

Spring ovoids?

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #27)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:44 PM

48. Yes, I guess that is a legitimate point.

But the larger point is, why not accommodate those folks who are going to suffer severe, life-changing mental trauma if they are exposed to the "E" word?

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #48)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:52 PM

55. Is that a point? Sounds like more Christian whining to me.

People being outraged that someone, somewhere, won't acknowledge their Christianized version of an ancient pagan holiday.

They should have been Eostre Ovoids.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #24)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:17 PM

30. Why not just use the Fox News link, Nye?

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Response to redqueen (Reply #30)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:41 PM

47. I just gave the top Google result for that phrase. (nt)

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Response to sufrommich (Reply #36)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 04:31 PM

118. All these made up conservative talking points really make the rounds. You'd think we could

avoid them here. But I guess some have agendas that only made-up conservative talking points can support.

If I had an agenda that only a made-up conservative talking point could support, I'd rethink that agenda.

Thank you for posting that.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #24)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 10:24 PM

190. What does one bizarre, misguided aberration have to do with not needlessly offending people

in general? Yes, whoever came up with the "spring spheres" concept is a dumbass, but that has nothing to do with the acceptability of public racism/sexism/homophobia/etc.

*Edit: I see the whole thing was a hoax anyhow. No wonder.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #20)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:09 PM

25. Now we should place gifts under the festive winter shrubbery?

(Growing up, I did have friends who changed the name of the Christmas Tree to the Chanukkah Bush when their grandparents came over)

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #25)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:54 PM

56. The Shrubbery of the Knights who say Ni? nt

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:03 PM

22. PC was originally a term bandied about by Chinese Maoists to describe the correct part line.

 

American leftists in the 1970s adopted it in a self-consciously parodic way:

From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness#Early-to-mid_20th_century

Stuart Hall suggests one way in which the original use of the term may have developed into the modern one:

According to one version, political correctness actually began as an in-joke on the left: radical students on American campuses acting out an ironic replay of the Bad Old Days BS (Before the Sixties) when every revolutionary groupuscule had a party line about everything. They would address some glaring examples of sexist or racist behaviour by their fellow students in imitation of the tone of voice of the Red Guards or Cultural Revolution Commissar: 'Not very "politically correct", Comrade!'[10]

----

Now, it's used as a cudgel by the right against the left (or more accurately, since we don't seem to actually have an American left anymore) against the identity politics folks. Of course, sometimes the identity politics folks make it easy. There are many threads here that could be (and probably are) ridiculed as PC. Huge threads over "a woman scorned" being one example.

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #22)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:17 PM

28. now you're throwing facts into the discussion.

the words have magical powers people won't like that.

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #22)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:24 PM

38. I thought we were the American Left?

No place of extreme heat and pressure has the same degree of forcefulness as a female who has been made to feel shame and anger by external forces.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #38)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:04 PM

59. Got a problem with women?

Or just perpetuating a long standing destructive stereotype that has no real context in the discussion?

Of course some folk seem to be trying to represent an allegory of the male reproductive organ

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #59)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:25 PM

72. No and no.

 

And are you trying to sneakily call somebody a dick? That's kind of low coming from someone who appears to get bent out of shape by the use of gendered language.

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #72)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:35 PM

74. Of course not!

Just as he was not trying to rephrase "Hell hath no Fury as a woman scorned"

Interestingly, since we are all about wiki, this is the original phrasing

"Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned, Nor hell a fury like a woman scorned," spoken by Zara in Act III, Scene VIII.[2] (This is usually paraphrased as "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned""

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Congreve

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #74)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 03:22 PM

101. I didn't think so. n/t

 

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #101)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 03:42 PM

109. I would so hate for there to be misunderstandings between us. nt

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #74)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 04:33 PM

120. I understood the context of your post

But I thank Comrade Grumpy.


...except that I KNOW Hell hath no fury.....as I said; wife & 2 daughters.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #120)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 05:10 PM

127. And what do you think of angry men?

Do you think a mans anger is somehow less? Or less effective?

(and I know you didn't need CG to speak for you, you're clearly able to hold your own)

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #127)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 07:19 PM

149. I think angry men do truly awful things

The expression "HHNFLAAWS" is not generally used to describe actual physical violence, or even the type of constructive vandalism from Carrie Underwood songs. It is used - generally - by members of my gender to describe a type of frosty-eyed, loud volumed reprimand for real (usually) and imagined (less frequently) sleights. You may say that this is an unfortunate and unfair stereotype; I would counter by telling you that the floral and jewelry industries are built, in part, upon this unfortunate and unfair stereotype. These events generally occur when members of my gender overpromise and under deliver on commitments, get caught with other members of your gender, blow their paychecks at strip clubs or casinos, forget anniversaries or birthdays. Long story short -- it's a specific type of anger that takes place in male/female (or I suppose, female/female) interpersonal relationships.

My grandfather, who I never met, had an awful temper. He threw things; hit his kids; hit his wife; yelled and screamed. I've visited many women's shelter's in my professional life that are primarily built on the awfulness of angry men.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #120)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 07:26 PM

154. Are you telling us that you scorn them a lot? I hope not.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #154)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 08:04 PM

167. My elder daughter and I exchange scorn

...it's the whole teenage/middle age thing.

I've actually perfected angering my wife to the point where I can get fury with little or no output on my part. I'm looking into whether it can be harnessed as an energy source.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #167)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 08:13 PM

168. Aren't you special. And this is something you like to do?

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Response to Squinch (Reply #168)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 08:18 PM

169. I enjoy offering to take her to lunch at Twin Peaks

It's like setting of firecrackers -- the word "objectification" comes up frequently.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #169)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 08:02 AM

212. So she feels that you are objectifying women when you offer to take her to a boob restaurant, and

it bothers her, and you enjoy making her feel that way?

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Response to Squinch (Reply #212)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 10:52 AM

218. I only offer to take her there. We don't actually go.

I enjoy that she stands up for herself and has her own point of view.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #218)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 12:51 PM

221. You manufacture situations in which she is made uncomfortable enough that she feels she needs to

stand up for herself because you find her reaction entertaining?

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Response to Squinch (Reply #221)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 01:18 PM

222. OK, this is really entertaining and all, but we're going to end this now

There are better things for both of us to be doing.

Peace be with you.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #59)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 04:34 PM

121. Yes, I have a problem with women

I have a wife and two daughters. I'm surrounded and outnumbered.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #121)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 05:08 PM

126. Yes, many off us on DU have spouses and kids.

In my case, you would be outnumbered as well, my husband and I have one son and 3 daughters.
It doesn't cause any gender problems though. They're all cool with each other.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #38)


Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:17 PM

29. True...

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:19 PM

31. It's a useful phrase.

Like "fascist," it gets redefined by people who don't bother to think about what it is.

Sure, avoiding offensive terms can be called "politically correct." Or "polite." The two don't mean the same thing, or at least don't always. In the last few decades the term's become bleached--those who originally used it don't like it and those who picked it up changed the meaning a bit.

"Semantic bleaching" is when the (denotative) meaning of a word is made fuzzier and fuzzier until it's lost. "Politically correct" had a single, rather specific meaning. It still has that meaning if you're widely read enough or in the right circles. For others it's bleached.

Originally the term went like this.

There was a policy promulgated. What's done and planned must be according to the policy. If something wasn't done according the the policy, it was automatically politically incorrect.

The policy included everything from speech codes of a sort to codes of action and opinion. On DU at election time it is forbidden to voice support for a non-Democratic candidate. You may like the Green candidate--that's your business, keep it to yourself. The politics and the policy are such that this kind of speech is incorrect. It's a mild form of politically incorrect speech, but can get you banned. "Policy correct" is probably a better phrase for it. I don't know an adjectival form for "policy" that doesn't involve coercion (which is the taking of a word that's, say, a noun and using it as a verb or adjective. To verb a noun is "coercion", to say that you use a "computer keyboard" is to coerce "computer" into being an adjective.)

It's a leftist term in origin. In Russian you can still say, without irony, that something is politicheski pravil'no or politicheski nepravil'no--politically correct or politically incorrect. Russian "politicheskii" is the adjective for "politika" (policy as well as politics--your politics are the government policies you agree with, after all).

And it got into English via the CPUSA. When Stalin was alive, you didn't criticize him. When the CPUSA or KP SSSR said to do something, it laid down the party line. That was the official policy. To say otherwise was not in accord with the stated policy and objectives of the party you were a member of or evaluated in accordance with. To disagree was politically incorrect.

When Stalin's denunciation was made public, life was interesting for KP and CP members. They'd come to work speaking praise for Comrade Stalin. When told that this was no wrong, they'd be in a quandary: What level of condemnation is appropriate? Who can be praised and sucked up to? Can I get back that recommendation I filed yesterday whole-heartedly supporting Stalin's initiative but which today might get me fired? No? Shit!

For many here, disagreeing with Obama is politically incorrect. For many here, to disagree with some facet of ideology--whether a (D) party platform plank or some tenet held by many is politically incorrect. To transgress those boundaries is to face calls for enforcement by the "party bosses," to have public criticism foisted upon you (we never used to post jury results to disgrace others), to call for samokritika (self-criticism and public repentance).

Once I was in a church that went from frowning on discommunication towards approving it. I watched one sweet woman go up to another who'd been having problems and give her a sympathetic, warm hug and a kiss, then a card expressing sympathy. She held the woman's hand and patted it, looking kindly and weepy-eyed. Five minutes later that woman with the problems was called out from the pulpit and we were told that she was disfellowshipped. The nice sweet woman went up to the woman with problems before she left the building and insisted on having the card returned, lest the minister find out about it. "You're a horrible person, how could you deceive me like that?" Sympathy was politically correct at 1:00. At 1:50, sympathy for that woman was politically incorrect. It often has nothing to do with rudeness. It has to do with following the rules as set by somebody or some group, and doing so blindly because one has to follow policy.

The word is a bad for for many places where there is no one oligarchy or autocrat that sets and dictates policy and therefore politics. DU is one of them. Work places are another. Where I work there are a lot of times when a student refuses to learn--some make sense, they have other goals; in some cases they face overwhelming problems; mostly the tuned-out students are just disinterested and see no point in anything that doesn't involve their genitals, money, socializing, or some other sort of fun. But "if a student fails, it's really the teachers that have failed" and "nobody is allowed to blame the student." To say out loud even alone with the principal that it's the student's fault in many cases is politically incorrect. Period. It's not particularly rude. It's just factual. But it violates policy and brings a rebuke, a request for self-criticism, and can lead to administrative sanction.

However, it became inappropriate to use certain language, and it wasn't just politeness. To the extent that there's peer pressure as the only "setter of policy" politeness can look about the same. But there's a difference: You are polite to a person. If I call my wife a "hunky" to her face, I'm quite possibly being rude. If I call her a "hunky" when she's nowhere to be seen, I risk having something offensive reported back to her but she's not there. There's no rudeness. That's especially true if I'm alone. But it's still "incorrect." The policy is that you never, but never, use terms that might in any circumstance give offense in the view of an observer who may, or may not, have idiosyncratic views about what is correct. That observer gets to set the policy. At least for some people. ("Hunky" is the standard term of derision in some subgroups of Americans for "Hungarian". It can be used to be insulting, like "Jap" or "Nip"; it can be used, by people who's credentials are in order and approved by the Modern Offense Monitors Society or MOMS, in ways that don't quite signal affection but show solidarity with that disadvantaged and formerly oppressed minority group.)

If you want to see the difference between politeness and milquetoast "PCism" try this. Pick two acquaintances you really don't care about. Go up to one and be rude. "Did you know you're a real dickhead? I mean, fuckhead just doesn't do it when saying how disgusting you are." He'll be offended. Now go up and with a tone of voice that is neutral or even approving, use a racial epithet--perhaps one that could apply to the person you're talking to, perhaps even just one that applies to his/her friend or S.O. "Did you know that hunkies wrote some really good music? Bartok, for instance." The "dickhead" comment is rude. But the comment analogous to "hunky" marks you not as rude, but as suspect, immoral or dangerous, and there's no way to get around this if you're credentials aren't in order. It will trigger a response that's different from mere insults. (This has been studied. Racial epithets really are different.) Politeness and PCism may overlap, but one's worse. Even if the person you talk to is an inveterate racist and agrees with the use of the epithet he may look around if it's in public to see if his reaction's being monitored by his peers before agreeing.

It's not "true" political incorrectness because there's no party line that you have to tow. But the behavior is often the same as in situations where there was real political correctness. For example, coming to work and saying good things about Khrushchev the day *after* he was sent off to his dacha for his "retirement." Or going to work for RT and singing to your friend, just loud enough for your boss to hear, "Putin--khuilo! La-la-la!"

There's a difference.

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Response to Igel (Reply #31)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:27 PM

39. Thanks. That's a great post!

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Response to Igel (Reply #31)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:29 PM

40. Leftist origins, ok

Recently the right subverted it and now is a ridiculous free for all

The term "political correctness" in its modern pejorative sense became part of the US public debate in the late 1980s, with its media use becoming widespread in 1991.[11] It became a key term encapsulating conservative concerns about the left in academia in particular, and in culture and political debate more broadly. Two articles on the topic in late 1990 in Forbes and Newsweek both used the term "Thought police" in their headlines, exemplifying the tone of the new usage, but it was Dinesh D'Souza's Illiberal Education: The Politics of Race and Sex on Campus (1991) which "captured the press's imagination".[11] "Political correctness" here was a label for a range of policies in academia around supporting multiculturalism though affirmative action, sanctions against anti-minority "hate speech", and revising curricula (sometimes referred to as "canon busting".[11][12] These trends were at least in part a response to the rise of identity politics, with movements such as feminism, gay rights movements and ethnic minority movements. That response received significant direct and indirect funding from conservative foundations and think tanks, not least the John M. Olin Foundation, which funded D'Souza's book.[13]

In the event, the previously obscure term became common-currency in the lexicon of the conservative social and political challenges against progressive teaching methods and curriculum changes in the secondary schools and universities (public and private) of the U.S.[14] Hence, in 1991, at a commencement ceremony for a graduating class of the University of Michigan, U.S. President George H.W. Bush (1989–93) spoke against: "... a movement [that would] declare certain topics ‘off-limits’, certain expressions ‘off-limits’, even certain gestures ‘off-limits’...."[15]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness


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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #40)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:31 PM

41. I'm not even paying attention to posts that ignore context.

"But the dictionary says...!" type of comments are a waste of time.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #41)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:37 PM

46. The term has an interesting history

I didn't realize it went that far back. But like a few others apparently, I looked up on wiki. Because usage became widespread with the help of the RW, and I remember being disgusted.


But, back to facts. It's now used mostly as an excuse to be an asshole. And you're right about pedantic historical verbiage trying to defend how it's used NOW.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #41)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:45 PM

49. Yes, dictionaries are a waste of time and space.

When I use a word, it means whatever I want it to mean, no more and no less.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #49)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:47 PM

51. You know very well that's not my point.

But hey, thanks once again for being true to form.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #51)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:05 PM

60. I don't know what your point was, though

No-one has mentioned dictionaries; ismnotwasm posted an informative excerpt from Wikipedia, which is a little like a dictionary, but it was giving a good context for the spread of the phrase; and you then denounced posts that ignore context or say "but the dictionary says ...". So I don't know if you're denouncing the quote from Wikipedia as being too like a dictionary, or praising it for giving context - and pre-emptively denouncing anyone who may mention a dictionary in the future.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #60)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:17 PM

66. I seriously didn't think it was that easy to miss.

This OP is about the way people dishonestly use the term to refer to the effort to make language more polite, inclusive, considerate, etc.

Doing a Google search and then cutting and pasting a wall of text explaining what the term actually used to mean decades ago it's the very definition of 'beside the point'.

No, it isn't literally quoting a dictionary, but I didn't think the similarity to that tactic was hard to spot.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #66)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:35 PM

75. The strange thing is that the pasted 'wall of text' seemed to support your OP

since it was about how RWers like D'Souza started using it to criticise inclusiveness, and how it caught on in the media. But since it looks like it was one of the posts you didn't pay attention to, I guess you didn't know that.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #75)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:53 PM

80. Now now, no need for that

If you read the whole thing, The post quotes "it's a useful term"--- it's an attempt, albeit a bit convoluted, to defend the phrase-- opposite of the OP.

The history is interesting, as I thought it started with Rush Limbaugh, or the like, so I appreciate the post, but I understand RQ's frustration, as it confuscates the OP.

I simply read it as the poster doesn't agree with the OP, and used a legitimate, but extremely off the point post.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #80)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:02 PM

81. Igel is the only one saying "it's a useful ..."; your pasted 'wall of text' is what redqueen

is attacking, as being from Wikipedia - almost a dictionary, to her. What to you is 'recently' (early 1990s) is, to redqueen, 'decades ago', and 'beside the point'.

I agree with you that the history is interesting, but redqueen doesn't want to know about D'Souza.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #81)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:10 PM

82. lol... "attacking" ... are you actually serious with this shit?



Anyway, there are two posts about the history of the term and one of them goes back to the sixties or some shit. I don't give a fuck about dsouza.

Thanks ever so much for reading the wall of text just to tell me shit I already fucking know.

If they agree that's fucking lovely. Whether I slog through paragraphs of unnecessary verbosity doesn't change shit, whether you call my unwillingness to do so "attacking" or not.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #82)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:54 PM

93. Meh - people who reply to posts in their own threads with 'tl;dr' don't get to complain

about the terms replies use. The shit you give us isn't that interesting, you know. ismnotwasm's post was, though.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #93)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 03:07 PM

96. Oh no. You hurt me. You cut me deep.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #81)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:12 PM

84. I suppose more context is in order

RQ and I discuss a lot of things, and we agree a lot, disagree some, so an exchange between her and I, is more a form of conversation between friends, something which I wish could happen more often here. I didn't feel attacked, I felt she was expressing her opinion.

RQ may very well want to know about any number of things when there are in context; the origins of 'Political Correct', as posted in this case, were not.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #49)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:49 PM

53. I don't believe, in fact I'm positive, that's not what she what she was trying to say.

Nice try though!

A little derailment bingo in the morning!

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #49)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:02 PM

58. You're Finally

starting to get it.

And by the same token, when I hear a word it means whatever I want it to mean, no more and no less.

And down the rabbit hole we go.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #49)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 03:51 PM

111. I own my language, it doesn't own me. I use my language as I please. I recognize no authority.

Language evolves. I'd rather be on the cutting edge of my language than be trapped in the fetid backwaters of some dictionary or middle school grammar text.

The meaning of the phrase "Politically Correct" has been destroyed by assholes I have no respect for. The phrase is dead to me. Useless.

Anyone who uses the phrase "Politically Correct" today, especially as right-wing code-talk, is speaking dead fish.

I don't speak dead fish.

If I'm uncertain what someone means when they say "Politically Correct" then I'll ask them to clarify.

If they are simply being right wing assholes then I won't be shy telling them what I think.

The language of the streets, especially in my community, is always evolving. Minority communities are always bringing something new to the language table. One of the most remarkable things about the English language is its ability to assimilate words, grammars, pronunciations and cadences from other languages.

I live in a community that is a hotbed of language evolution. Forty percent of the kids in our public schools do not speak English at home. The English speaking black community has many gifted ways of storytelling too. The average high school "English" accent in my community incorporates much from other languages, especially those of Mexico, Asian, and African origins.

My wife and kids are language chameleons adapting their own language to the situation. Full academic Ivy League and Stanford English, West Coast "Spanglish," to generic wherever-you-are-from California Spanish. My wife and one of my kids also do a very good Missouri/Southern Illinois and Irish English too. Not consciously. They simply adapt to their audience. I'm always astonished by this innate skill. I sit quietly, invited spouse or dad at the conference table, wondering what sort of beings these are as languages shift about.

A few family friends, and my father-in-law, can do simultaneous translation in multiple languages. They've made good money for that too. Alas, my own listening and spoken language skills are utterly, hopelessly, fossilized into mushy mid-twentieth century American Television English with a slight Wild West twang.

My own language is watered down vanilla Dennis Weaver, except when I write.


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Response to hunter (Reply #111)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 11:28 PM

194. "The phrase is dead to me. Useless."

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #49)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 03:54 PM

113. I imagine that the dogmatic who discount the colloquial may even believe 'gentleman'

I imagine that the dogmatic who discount the colloquial may even believe 'gentleman' to refer only to a male villein possessing more than 1500 acres of wooded and pastoral lands...

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:20 PM

33. Whenever I hear someone whining about 'political correctness'...

I know there's a 99% chance they're a racist, sexist, homophobe, or religious bigot who feels put upon that they can't get away with voicing their particular brand of bigotry without being called on it anymore.

(That 1%? The useful idiots who aren't bigots, but allow themselves to get sucked into the whinefest by the bigots.)

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #33)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:34 PM

43. BOOM!

At the very least they are members of one privileged class or another who don't want to have to recognize it.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #33)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 03:13 PM

99. +1

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #33)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 03:57 PM

114. +1 million

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #33)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 04:43 PM

122. ^^^^ That. The article says it's about entitlement and disrespect. When it is used to complain

about requests to avoid language that particular groups find problematic, it's showing an entitlement TO disrespect. It is saying, "My opinion rules on this. I know you will be offended but too damn bad. I get to say whatever I want."

It is just a passive aggressive way of silencing people you disagree with. Here it is often used by people who give lip service to agreeing (AAO with his insistence that he was a feminist ally, for example) when in fact they have a barely disguised underlying hate for the group they are (very intentionally) offending.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #33)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 06:43 PM

143. Correct...

And well said

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:22 PM

35. I always feel "PC" critics

Just want an excuse to be an asshole. Sometimes they're trying to be funny

I still have a policy (in RL) of ignoring people who use it often. They're usually not worth talking to. On-line, as so much else, it tends to be a rallying cry, 'don't tell me what to say' with the first amendment being brought up somewhere in there, which absolutely cracks me up. The first amendment covers a lot of ground, including the right to object to what is being said, to argue, to express ones opinion

If I talked online the way I talk in RL, or said what I really wanted to say to certain folks, I would have been booted a long time ago. I do believe in a modicum of politeness. I despise the term "politically correct".

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #35)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:37 PM

45. Yeah. The "first amendment" stuff is a hoot.

So many people seem not to have a clue.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:33 PM

42. RWers use the term a lot.

 

It is a good tell.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:35 PM

44. Political correctness = white guy slightly inconvenienced. n/t

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Response to Orsino (Reply #44)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:19 PM

69. That accounts for the vast majority of the term's use. (nt)

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Response to Orsino (Reply #44)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 04:00 PM

115. True.

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Response to Orsino (Reply #44)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 04:44 PM

123. And thinks his inconvenience trumps any hurt the word or phrase might cause.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:49 PM

52. And why the heck not sing "Baa Baa Rainbow Sheep"

if even one person finds "Baa Baa Black Sheep" objectionable?

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Baa%2C_Baa%2C_Black_Sheep

A similar controversy emerged in 1999 when reservations about the rhyme were submitted to Birmingham City Council by a working group on racism in children's resources, which were never approved or implemented.[9] Two private nurseries in Oxfordshire in 2006 altered the song to "Baa Baa Rainbow Sheep", with black being replaced with a variety of other adjectives, like "happy, sad, hopping" and "pink".[10] In 2012, a private nursery in Kingston upon Thames replaced "black" with "little" for their Easter show.

What true progressive could object to this simple politeness?

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #52)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:10 PM

62. Whoa, that leads to this article called "Loony left"!

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Response to alp227 (Reply #62)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:14 PM

65. Sure does

Modern controversies

Further information: Loony Left
A controversy emerged over changing the language of "Baa Baa Black Sheep" in Britain from 1986, because, it was alleged in the popular press, it was seen as racially dubious. This was based only on a rewriting of the rhyme in one private nursery as an exercise for the children there and not on any local government policy. A similar controversy emerged in 1999 when reservations about the rhyme were submitted to Birmingham City Council by a working group on racism in children's resources, which were never approved or implemented. Two private nurseries in Oxfordshire in 2006 altered the song to "Baa Baa Rainbow Sheep", with black being replaced with a variety of other adjectives, like "happy, sad, hopping" and "pink". In 2012, a private nursery in Kingston upon Thames replaced "black" with "little" for their Easter show. Commentators have asserted that these controversies have been exaggerated or distorted by some elements of the press as part of a more general campaign against political correctness.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baa,_Baa,_Black_Sheep

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #65)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:11 PM

83. How is "Baa Baa Rainbow Sheep" in any way "loony"?

If even one person objects to "Baa Baa Black Sheep", why not make the change?

And good to see people dropping the potentially offensive terms "blacklist" and "whitelist", too.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/howaboutthat/9250580/Police-IT-department-bans-word-blacklist-in-case-it-is-deemed-racist.html

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #83)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:21 PM

87. Ah the Torygraph... how fitting.



Your effort to defend the right wing ridiculing of each and every instance which you can use to fight the effort to make language more polite and inclusive is ... impressive... or something...

But do you have anything at all to say about the way it was whined about here on DU, today? i.e. someone whining about a post being hidden for calling a woman a b****?

Anything at all? Or are you just going to keep slumming through right wing sewage and sharing the treasures you find here?

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Response to redqueen (Reply #87)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:51 PM

92. When I complained about the Rude Pundit calling women the "c" word,

a third of DUers disagreed with me.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025121954

I would never refer to any woman as a bitch or as the c-word, but there is a sizable minority of DUers who differ with me on this.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #92)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:57 PM

94. Yes and at one point in time most would disagree

that they should have to refrain from using homophobic or racist language.

Times change, but when it comes to sexist and misogynist language they just change very, very, VERY slowly.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #83)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:25 PM

88. How did you miss the point?

The site linked to, "The Loony Left" was critical of Britans Labour Party, and leftist politics.

Now, while I do understand what you are trying to say, I feel you used a bad example.

In my place of work, we are supposed to say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" in the understanding that not every one is a Christian, and some don't celebrate Christmas, or believe it it.

We get "Holiday" pay for working it though.

Now, this can get awkward, I, an agnostic who thinks Christmas is a holiday to give presents and eat good food, ignore any religious trappings. My daughter, who IS religious, simply says it's more about family. At any rate, I use "Holidays Holidays" but choose not to be offended, or bothered by, those who say "Merry Christmas"

(Easter I consider holiday for little kids, which probably does have pagan roots-- which doesn't matter, except in a historical context, which has the very remote possibility of affecting policy----Easter egg hunts and the Easter Bunny matter)

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #88)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 08:04 AM

214. That baa baa black sheep thing was a hoax. It never happened.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #83)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 03:09 PM

97. So what IS your point in bringing up these stories?

Do you have an argument to make, or are you trying to get somebody's goat?

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Response to alp227 (Reply #62)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:20 PM

70. LOL... like I keep saying... true to form!

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #52)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 04:46 PM

124. Don't you have any sources that aren't right wing agenda scams? That's two so far in this thread.

Are you that easily fooled?

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Response to Squinch (Reply #124)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 05:11 PM

128. Sorry, I wasn't aware that Wikipedia was a "right-wing agenda scam".

Some of the very best DUers have been known to use Wikipedia as a source, in fact:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1255&pid=23411

But here's a Guardian link if it will make you happy:

http://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2006/mar/10/features.g2

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #128)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 05:38 PM

129. No, Nye. Wikipedia is fine. In fact, it tells us that the Baa Baa Black Sheep story was a right

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #52)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 11:31 PM

195. Why are you using trivial bullshit to mock serious concerns about oppressive behavior?

Seems downright reactionary of you.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:50 PM

54. My observation is that when "political correctness" is brought up in discussion of political issues

it's usually a baseless claim.

On the other hand, there are some situations where the term is an apt description:
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[img][/img]

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Response to WatermelonRat (Reply #54)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:57 PM

57. A lot (and by that I mean most) of the over-the-top stuff on tumblr is sarcasm.

The anon hate re: going for a walk was definitely sent by the blog owner in an attempt to be funny and get attention.

Besides, Nye's already on the job of looking up any silly examples for the sole purpose of defending the practice of whining about "political correctness" so that's covered.

Meanwhile the whine was seen being used here on DU, this morning, because someone had a post hidden for referring to a woman as a "b****".

So... efforts to portray the complaining as valid are... well...

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Response to redqueen (Reply #57)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:19 PM

68. It's certainly possible, thanks to Poe's law, that a given example may be a troll or satire.

However, there definitely exist people who believe that words like "dumb" and "stupid" are ableist and that it is appropriation for white people to do yoga. For a non-tumblr example, here is a blogger who most definitely is not a troll or satirist claiming that the word "seminal" is sexist (because it derives from the same ancient Roman word for semen, you see).
http://thesocietypages.org/cyborgology/2014/04/21/dont-say-seminal-its-sexist/

I am well aware that there are plenty of right-wingers who use the term as a means of minimizing criticism of objectively offensive behavior, but I've also seen quite a bit of nonsensical labelling of the benign as sinister. I personally do prefer to avoid using the term because it has largely been tainted by the former group; however I'm also aware that many who use it do so in reference to the latter.

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Response to WatermelonRat (Reply #68)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:23 PM

71. Oh sure, there are definitely a few.

But hardly any, and they are already roundly mocked, so I don't accept that engaging in right wing smear campaigns because there are some silly people somewhere is in any way defensible.

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Response to WatermelonRat (Reply #54)


Response to WatermelonRat (Reply #54)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 11:41 PM

196. Misguided, ridiculous people. They should probably be ignored. n/t

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:07 PM

61. Demonization of the words "politically correct" is nothing but brainwashing propaganda

This is a good OP.

Thanks for the thread, redqueen.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:12 PM

63. Political correctness is a terrible thing

if you're the kind of person that wants to be able to say n****r f****t or c**t without being yelled at for saying n****r f****t or c**t. The same bullshit right wingers pull with "Free speech!", which means "I'm allowed to say whatever I want, and no one is allowed to criticize me for it, because it violates my freedom of speech."

When someone starts railing about political correctness, it's usually because there's a minority group they're not allowed to make fun of anymore without someone pointing out that they're an asshole.

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Response to JoeyT (Reply #63)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:20 PM

86. Lots of DUers were accused of "political correctness" when they objected to Rude Pundit

using the c-word.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #86)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 11:50 PM

197. If you're making the point that "political correctness" is a largely meaningless phrase, there are

better ways to do it. Just saying.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:13 PM

64. "vituperative", what does it mean? I had to look it up (my bad).

Thank you Red Queen, from a very azure blue princess. (snark)

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:37 PM

76. Political Correctness = Smug, greedy, well-fed white people have created a language to conceal

their sins, it's as simple as that." -George Carlin.

Soft language is a mocker to the reality we live in and the process with which the language police on DU use political correctness to enforce their world view is very disturbing.

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Response to Exultant Democracy (Reply #76)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:36 PM

89. None of us is George Carlin.

I'm a huge fan and it always bugs me to see his name trotted out as the main excuse to be rude. All I expect reasonably polite discourse-- And of course I understand when things get heated-- and refraining from deliberately hurting people's feelings on-line, where so much can be misinterpreted.

And I don't feel that is being "politically correct"

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #89)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:39 PM

90. I notice how rarely anyone quotes his "the male disease" bit. nt

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Response to redqueen (Reply #90)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:46 PM

91. Yup

I saw him in concert twice, and he was quite the wordsmith-- he'd make most of DU uncomfortable.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 01:38 PM

77. Language is alive

and it eats PC with breakfast.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 02:14 PM

85. Police IT department bans word 'blacklist' in case it is deemed racist

Police IT staff have been banned from using the word 'blacklist' because it could be considered racist.

The Police Federation has condemned the move as a 'waste of time' and 'an irrelevance'.

The term whitelist - a list of acceptable contacts - has also been banned.

Security services chief Brian Douglas wrote in an email: "Information Board are uncomfortable with the use of the term Whitelist (and I presume Blacklist).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/howaboutthat/9250580/Police-IT-department-bans-word-blacklist-in-case-it-is-deemed-racist.html


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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #85)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 03:37 PM

107. Some computer terms really are racist

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Response to mwrguy (Reply #107)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 04:14 PM

117. I would disagree with that

"Slave" explicitly means one completely controlled by another; in this case the master hard drive.

It does not exclusively refer to African Americans, in fact quite the opposite it refers to the Slavic people.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 03:23 PM

102. Is using the word "seniors" to describe old people politically correct? I'd say so but you won't

hear baggers whining about that one. I see no reason to not call them what they prefer. That kind of thing doesn't bother m.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)


Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 03:53 PM

112. "SHUT UP!", they explained.

Food for thought for those who get it,

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 04:06 PM

116. The problem is each person has their own definition of PC

largely dependent on the their own experiences and attitudes.

While one should be cognizant of others' feelings, I see nothing wrong with lewd or offensive humour.

In fact that is usually the best kind.

But to each their own...

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Response to Tetris_Iguana (Reply #116)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 11:54 PM

198. Sure. But there's a time and a place for that sort of thing.

DU should be thought of as a public space, with certain standards of decorum, rather than the equivalent of talking over beers with a group of friends.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)


Response to Name removed (Reply #130)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 06:24 PM

131. Aaah poor baby

Did someone have a sad day fighting for the cause? Enjoy your (brief) stay, friend.

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Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #131)


Response to Name removed (Reply #134)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 06:30 PM

135. hey buddy a troll is a troll and not deserving of any politeness from anyone

Wander in here with that stupid shit for your very first post and that is what you get. Clown.

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Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #135)


Response to Name removed (Reply #136)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 06:34 PM

137. Yes, yes I am. 100 percent.

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Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #137)


Response to Name removed (Reply #138)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 06:38 PM

140. as I said before, you deserve no politeness from anyone.

You are transparent. Clear as an azure sky. Now who exactly has been impolite to you friend?

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Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #140)


Response to Name removed (Reply #142)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 06:45 PM

144. aww poor widdle oppressed cracker man

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Response to Kali (Reply #144)


Response to Name removed (Reply #156)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 07:34 PM

158. bye!

 

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Response to Name removed (Reply #156)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 07:36 PM

159. Gee, you wasted no time. Oh, and welcome back!




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Response to Name removed (Reply #142)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 06:46 PM

145. I love how you folks attempt to act as if the word cracker is vile and hurtful.

and somehow equivalent to the thousand and one words you have for people of color. Oh well, I tire of this sport so you will just have to play with yourself for a while. I am sure you can handle it, friend.

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Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #145)


Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #145)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 08:37 PM

170. I think all racial epithets are vile and hurtful.

I say this as one of the "people of color" that you describe.

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Response to Name removed (Reply #130)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 06:38 PM

139. You A Special Little Snowflake, Fella, Ain'tcha?

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #139)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 06:52 PM

148. Outstanding, as usual.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 06:41 PM

141. PC = Plain Courtesy n/t

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Response to eridani (Reply #141)


Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 07:27 PM

155. So what words, phrases, or thoughts would you ban...

to satisfy your version of political correctness?

I've found that most people who accuse others of criticizing vicious and pernicious motives concerning rejection of supposed political correctness usually just want to silence any point of view they don't want to hear, read, or deal with in any way.

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Response to NaturalHigh (Reply #155)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 07:46 PM

161. You tell me - what kind of "politically incorrect" ideas are you thinking of?

Ideas should stand on their own merits, instead of looking edgy via being politically incorrect.

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Response to alp227 (Reply #161)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 08:57 PM

172. That's really not an answer - more of a swerve.

"Ideas should stand on their own merits, instead of looking edgy via being politically incorrect."

I couldn't agree more. They should also not be dismissed out of hand because they are not politically correct, which usually means they offend a certain group that is more than happy to support "edgy" speech that supports its point of view.

I'm a free speech sort, and I have a certain disdain for anyone who advocates censorship.

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Response to NaturalHigh (Reply #172)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 09:04 PM

173. "not be dismissed out of hand because they are not politically correct"

Examples please?

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Response to alp227 (Reply #173)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 09:06 PM

174. You first.

You still have answered the question that I put forward. What words would you ban in the name of political correctness?

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Response to NaturalHigh (Reply #174)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 09:09 PM

175. Well, you brought up the idea first, so instead of asking loaded questions why not provide examples

of politically incorrect ideas you want protected under free speech. Please, name names instead of discussing generalities!

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Response to alp227 (Reply #175)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 09:15 PM

176. Uh...yeah.

Name names...I would be more than happy to do so if it wouldn't result in a lock for a callout. Thanks, but I'm not playing. I'm well aware of the alert stalking that goes on.

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Response to NaturalHigh (Reply #176)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 09:18 PM

178. Callout? Really?

All I was asking for were examples of politically incorrect ideas that should be not taboo, in response to your question about what kind of language that should be banned. That was the gist of my "name names" phrase.

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Response to NaturalHigh (Reply #155)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 07:30 AM

211. I agree.

I wish there was an actual list of words we can't use and opinions we can't have. Also , a list of the "monolithic groups" that are fair game (Christians and/or Southerners for example) and the ones we can't criticize under any circumstances.


I come from a rough around the edges, blue collar background and if I posted here in my everyday vernacular, I probably would have been banned after my first post.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 07:50 PM

163. Unfortunately the left invented the term

It was meant as a compliment initially and has come back to bite us.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 07:56 PM

165. I believe it is used as a phrase to demonise compassion by the Right (wrong?)...

It is sneering at people who care about those different from the mainstream and their needs. I despise the term.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 08:39 PM

171. The cited source is wrong. Political correctness originated with communism

The party picked a position and you were politically correct if you aligned with the position and incorrect if not - sometimes needing even re-education

The term has come to used for any morally correct progressive point of view (eg anti racist), that is enforced through the traditional way socially acceptable behavior is encouraged through peer pressure. The right hates the term because they are on the receiving end of trying to change their bad behavior, and they don't want to change and hate being revealed as villains. They try to denigrate the term as forcing conformity, which they are right it does. This should be acknowledged, but it doesn't make their retro positions acceptable in modern society.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 09:24 PM

180. It's a useful term to describe a kind of lunacy.

The idea, for example, that Santa Claus should no the displayed in school in order to avoid offending someone, rather than letting people adjust to dealing with things.

This would be an example of overboard PC-ness.

It is a form of acceptable intolerance.

The same is true for those who wish to banish different words. It is a form of intolerance and I am sure someone will know throw the "Oh poor baby, he's an oppressed cracker snowflake who wants to use his widdle words" or some silly sort of thing at me.

Frank Zappa knew that the oppressive need to control, dominate, subjugate and monitor existed on booth right and left sides.

It is a feature of some people's personalities.



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Response to Bonobo (Reply #180)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 12:14 AM

199. Call it "lunacy," then. Or "stupidity." Or even "intolerance" if you think that fits.

Political correctness, as a phrase and concept, has been so overused, and more importantly, misused, to the point that it's kind of meaningless.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #199)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 12:31 AM

200. Sure, I can do that!

But those things miss a crucial element involved in the psychology of PC.

That is, that it is based on a kind of self-righteous sanctimonious that is all about feeling that you are doing the "proper thing" for appearances sake without considering the deeper things going on. It is a superficial kind of self-congratulatory symbolic action that isn't well-described merely with "lunacy" or "intolerance".

Words are my business and I will tell you that the reasons words are born and evolve is precisely because other words do not adequately cover the need.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #200)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 08:04 AM

213. Right. If political correctness was just being courteous, then the word courteous would be used

instead. But PC has an agenda (a political one!) and that is to suppress discourse so that the past is forgotten and can be rewritten by the PTB.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 09:31 PM

181. One can go overboard in an attempt ...

... to be "courteous, thoughtful, sensitive, inclusive, and respectful in our language." That what some jurors here do, as they shut down threads and comments that express important opinions.

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Response to JEFF9K (Reply #181)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 07:28 AM

210. thats how I view

The term politcal correctness.

Most benign example I can come up with is the deabte to rename manholes as person holes, utility access holes, etc.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Fri Jul 18, 2014, 09:53 PM

183. Before it was used derisively by the Limbaughs of the world, it was used with 100% earnestness

by some on the left.

I know, because I went to college in the 80s, and I have a good memory.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 12:54 AM

202. Thank you, redqueen...

...your OP aptly captures thoughts I've had regarding this term, but have been unable to adequately articulate.

I have a couple of friends who believe that using polite language is being "PC", and that "words are just words".

Sadly, these friends fail to ever connect the history with the problematic language they use.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 03:34 AM

206. ''It is my firm belief that it is a mistake to hold firm beliefs.'' ~Robert Anton Wilson n/t

 

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Response to DeSwiss (Reply #206)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 06:10 AM

209. Heh

Yeah, that dude is missed.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)


Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 08:45 AM

215. This:

...it is a tragedy of English vocabulary and public discourse that one of the main progressive take-away points from the “political correctness” furore – that we be courteous, thoughtful, sensitive, inclusive, and above all respectful in our language – has been lost, body-snatched by a sneaky and vicious code word for the privileged, entitled, and bigoted to claim not only license but even moral high ground for their vituperative sound and fury.


Rush Limbaugh and his fear-based, hate-mongering sycophants come readily to mind...

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Response to chervilant (Reply #215)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 11:41 AM

219. Gee, the trolls really seem to hate this stuff eh?

Right-wing assholes really don't like having their pathetic 'right to be an asshole' challenged.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sat Jul 19, 2014, 11:52 PM

227. +1! Tom Tomorrow echoed your sentiments many years ago

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Response to RufusTFirefly (Reply #227)

Sun Jul 20, 2014, 10:14 AM

234. Excellent, thanks. Much nicer to see this from the left than the hoax stories from the right

I mean it would be nice not to see the stuff from the right wing here at all.

But at least this comic provides some balance to all that fox news shit and libertarian "BUT FRANK ZAPPAAAA!" dumbassery up-thread.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Jul 20, 2014, 03:24 AM

229. K&R I start to brace myself for a tsunami of stupid every single time I hear someone start

hollering about political correctness. That is nothing but a convenient whine from the privileged that they don't get to shit all over the oppressed anymore.

But I disagree with this bit:

Before it became influential it was common to see overt racism, sexism, homophobia, jokes about the disabled and so on.

These ills are still prevalent.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #229)

Sun Jul 20, 2014, 10:16 AM

235. Yeah, it would be more accurate to have said "it was more common"...

It is less common now but it's hardly rare.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Jul 20, 2014, 03:30 AM

232. There Is a Political Corectness of the Right

Examples: The United States Is Always Right in Foreign Affairs. The Confederates Were brave strugglers against overwhelming odds. The British Empire was a Good Thing.

Right wing political correctness is just as disingenuous and fraudulent as left wing political correctness. In fact it is more so.

Wolf

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Response to Wolf Frankula (Reply #232)

Sun Jul 20, 2014, 10:17 AM

236. Oh, is it?

lol

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