Should the downing of this airliner have any long term effect on our relationship with Russia?

[yurbud]

I can't see any advantage for Russia or the Ukrainian rebels (or for Ukraine for that matter) in intentionally downing that airliner.

Russia in particular knows that the NATO and the US are already in high dudgeon and waiting for an excuse to isolate them further, and I refuse to believe that Putin is a retarded action movie villain, who is on a suicide mission to earn an invasion or assassination by the West as the right convinced us Saddam Hussein was.

Like the case for the Iraq War, I fear that the right questions aren't being asked and the deck is being stacked toward escalation.

Should this incident be a cause for escalating hostility toward Russia as the right wingers and neocons seem to want?

This poll is NOT necessarily a criticism of Obama's handling of this since he has shown some restraint and discretion so far.

14 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	YES. This underlines that Russia is a dangerous rogue nation.
	10 (71%)
	SORT OF. We should ratchet up hostility until the whole thing is sorted out.
	0 (0%)
	NO. We have made the same mistake with an Iranian airliner and this incident doesn't change the underlying geopolitics
	3 (21%)
	OTHER
	1 (7%)
	0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[Initech]

1. It's just one bullet point in a long list of why Russia is not to be trusted.

Is it the final straw though? No.

[geek tragedy]

2. Russia has a very narrow window in which

it can avoid being every bad thing said about it by Hillary et al. That window will close in less than seven days.

We should not point our missiles at each other or engage in armed conflict via proxy. But, "the Russians are up to no good" is rapidly becoming a defensible default assumption.

The proper US response should be to establish stronger ties with states like Brazil and even Cuba.

[davidn3600]

24. Putin has grown obsessed with reconstituting the control of the Soviet Union

He doesn't literally want to re-create the Soviet Union as it was in government, but he wants Russia to reclaim the control and influence that the Soviets had. Putin has no real respect for the borders of the former Soviet republics because he feels they should still serve Russia's interests over their own interests and certainly over Europe's.

The idea that Ukraine would consider making deals with Europe that are not in Russia's best interests is incredibly irritating and frustrating to Moscow.

The problem Putin has is the world has moved on and is not interested in any cold wars or creating big adversaries. He's a former KGB cold warrior of the 1980s plopped in the 2010s with no real major allies anymore. China certainly isn't interested in confrontations as they feel their own present course is leading to prosperity. And now with this downed plane, Russia risks even further isolation.

If Putin continues down this path, he will lead Russia to economic ruin.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

3. "To jaw-jaw is always better than to war-war." - Winston Churchill

[Louisiana1976]

29. Hear Hear

[TwilightGardener]

4. I'm curious, who is charging that Putin and his loons downed it intentionally knowing

it was civilian? I haven't seen anyone suggest that in the media or in any government. It's not a factor in deciding the world's response, so far. But "just an unfortunate accident" doesn't fly, either, because just as rational responsible parents wouldn't hand a toddler a loaded gun, rational responsible leaders wouldn't give a bunch of half-assed peasants and drunks a Buk Missile System to play with. That's the real outrage. That, and the horrific mishandling of the crash site and bodies.

[yurbud]

5. like the shit we gave the Afghans in the 80s?

[TwilightGardener]

6. Well, Reagan-era bad ideas notwithstanding, why did Putin give his toddlers a loaded gun

to take out a planeload of civilians flying at 33,000 ft.? Was that wise? Should the world ignore it?

[yurbud]

13. Does our government give a rat's ass about the maturity of right wing regimes we arm?

or even Islamic fundamentalists we armed from the 70s through today?

[TwilightGardener]

19. Is that the topic? Because I thought the topic was the airliner that was shot down.

And how and why it was shot down, and what should be done about it. If you want to discuss US/world history, we can do that, but that's not what you started with.

[betterdemsonly]

21. We don't even have to go back that far. Look at Isis. n/t

[sabrina 1]

51. Like we gave Saddam Hussein, like we gave Al Queda in Afghanistan, like we gave the Syrian 'rebels'

who are now using them in Iraq, like we gave Al Queda in Libya, who are slaughtering people there still, I know we've moved on from Libya, from Isis who are using OUR weapons in Iraq.

You're right though, rational leaders wouldn't give half assed extremists weapons, nor would they listen to a drunken petty thief to start a war in the wrong country.

At least we agree on something.

[yurbud]

59. The shills here are like a girlfriend I had once. ..

If I mentioned that she did the same thing yesterday that I just did that day that pissed her off, she'd say, "I'm not that person anymore. "

Then I'd ask if she was the same person who just said that and she'd say "probably not."

[fujiyama]

7. It depends on

how transparent the Russian government will be with regards to opening up the crash site for investigation. Will the separatists be allowed to loot the site? That sort of thing is absolutely unacceptable. If the separatists are responsible, Putin should split with these thugs.

I think ratcheting up sanctions is fine. Russia needs to be isolated and Putin needs to feel the heat. The only concern now should be how the hell Europe and Ukraine are able to break away from their dependence on Russian oil and natural gas. It could be one VERY cold winter.

[yurbud]

14. Putin could pull the same sleight of hand we did in Syria...

"Oh, we don't support THOSE rebels--just the moderate ones..."

[TwilightGardener]

22. You're aware that Putin enables Assad to kill Syrian civilians by the city block, right?

[samsingh]

8. for the memories of the victims, how can we ever forget?

[BillZBubb]

9. The obvious answer is yes.

Sure the US doesn't have the moral authority to attack anyone else for downing a civilian plane given the shoot down of the Iranian plane. But the Malaysian plane was just one in a long line of Putin's treachery.

I would bet Putin had no intention for this shoot down to occur. But that doesn't absolve him. He has acted very recklessly with respect to the whole Ukraine situation. He has annexed that country's territory. He has armed and promoted paramilitary activity in Ukraine. Putin is responsible for supplying the pro-Russian forces in Ukraine with weapons they should not have--in particular long range surface to air missiles. The chance for a tragedy like this to occur was too high for any sensible leader to provide those kinds of weapons to insurgents.

Putin is a dangerous, reckless man and not to be trusted. He should be viewed as an adversary and treated as such. This is not a call to "hostility" just a more hard line when dealing with Russia today.

[yurbud]

12. our government has done every single one of those things and led to far greater loss of life

which makes the umbrage our government takes insincere to say the least.

[KittyWampus]

15. So really, you started this thread to say the USA is bad ergo Russia is not bad?

You seem to keep repeating past US Foreign Policy in this thread.

Implicit is that the USA policy was wrong back then.

Well, if it was wrong that then when done by the USA or any other country, it's wrong done by Russia today.

[yurbud]

16. Not that Russia is not bad, but to look at what our government says

with a critical eye.

They are not acting out of selfless concern for air traffic safety.

Russia is not particularly concerned about Ukrainian sovereignty or ethnic Russians, but their access to their Black Sea port and their pipeline business to Europe.

Likewise, the US is looking to give that business to US and European companies, and weaken Russia's ability to oppose what we are doing for corporate business interests and banks in the rest of the world.

An issue like this airline disaster is at most a means to an end of either side.

Our government decides which actions like this to be offended by and which to ignore.

[TwilightGardener]

20. I think you have zero grasp of what's going on. Seriously.

[joshcryer]

27. Whataboutism.

I can be against the USA doing something and another country doing something similar.

[yurbud]

36. I agree as long as it isn't used as an excuse for war

[joshcryer]

40. No one is making an excuse for war.

There will be no escalation beyond what Ukraine has already been doing to get rid of the rebels. This would be over tomorrow if the rebels would just leave and give up arms.

[treestar]

10. I think we should be the peacemaking entity

along with the UN.

[Louisiana1976]

31. Good idea.

[TwilightGardener]

34. At this point we should demand that Putin stop backing and arming the separatists,

tell them they're never going to be Russian territory (he doesn't really want that anyway, his shit-stirring is to weaken Ukraine and make them stumble), and insist on a dialogue between the eastern regions and Kiev--without men in masks with guns to "influence" the proceedings.

[yurbud]

35. wouldn't it be nice if we did that too?

and withdrew our support from various right wing thug regimes around the world?

[TwilightGardener]

38. Russia wants to corner the market on enabling rogue regimes, they hate it when we muscle in--

so as soon as we stop supporting unsavory regimes with bad human rights records, Russia and China will move in. Look how fast Putin sucked Sissi's dick when we were kind of alarmed at the military taking over Egypt last summer. They thought they had a chance, finally, to make a huge arms sale. Both countries have their tentacles in a lot of places, as does China, and Britain, and France. The trick, though, is not invading countries on phony pretext (US in Iraq, Russia in Ukraine) or in giving rogue militias with little control or accountability the means to shoot down an airliner at cruising altitude.

[HereSince1628]

11. Yes, but NOT because they are a rogue nation.

Russia is dong what many nations do...act in what they perceive to be their national interest.

Acting in your national interest is every bit as potentially deadly as acting as a rogue nation.

Indeed, I don't see how those 2 things are operationally different.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

17. The current Russian government but not the Russian people

I am a great admirer of Russia, the people, the literature, music, culture, vodka, and way of thought. I feel more affinity with Russians than I do with Ukrainians, particularly because of the events of WWII. Hopefully Russians can get Putin and his gang off their back some day soon.

[Louisiana1976]

32. I hope so, too.

[sadoldgirl]

18. Putin cannot be trusted

I think though that any other Russian President might have acted similarly. After all I don't believe that most Russians like to see NATO right next door. He will try by all means to keep at least the Eastern part of the Ukraine. Was this a serious blunder on his part? If true that he was involved: YES, but no reason for the US to start over reacting. Indeed, if Western Europe does not want trouble with Russia, we have no motivation to interfere. I am not even sure that Putin still has absolute control over the rebels.

[Bluenorthwest]

23. Those of you who present the choices as war or just forgetting it happened are working an agenda

and not one I much care for. Simplistic bullshit in defense of a bigoted country. I say fuck you to those who attempt to deflect righteous criticism by claiming all criticism is a call for war. It's criticism, and yes, behavior and displays of inferior capability should always contribute to anyone's opinion of anyone else. When a group of people is bigoted, speaks lies about minority groups and shoots airliners out of the sky by accident, it is proper to think of them as bumbling hate mongers, too busy being bigots to learn how to shoot straight.

[joshcryer]

25. Shooting down Iran airline didn't change the equation?

That's news to me.

[TwilightGardener]

26. That was proof of the US as Great Satan. This? Just a sad little accident.

[yurbud]

41. is that sarcasm? Like this incident, I don't see the value to our government in doing that

on purpose

[TwilightGardener]

43. I'm intrigued by the tactic of searching for winners and losers, who gains or

loses advantage, when a civilian airliner is (by most accounts) shot down by mistake. The US Navy didn't want to kill a planeload of innocent civilians, back in the 1980's. I doubt Russia or its goofballs wanted to on Thursday, either. But there will still be repercussions--international repercussions-- related to this incident, as there should be. Do you have an issue with that?

[yurbud]

44. it depends on how severe they are. I'm all for restitution and things along that line

[yurbud]

30. the Iranians disliked us because we disliked them, but they didn't have the means to retaliate.

[joshcryer]

39. Same with Ukraine.

To act as though there were no geopolitical consequences for Iran is just wrong, though.

[yurbud]

45. for disliking us or having their plane shot down?

They want to be a regional player and have their own gas and oil to sell and now pipeline routes to protect and promote.

We our government wants to make sure that all of the above are in the "right" hands.

Most countries would do what we are doing if they had the means to do so, but we are at a unique moment in history when we are without a true rival in the world.

[RedCappedBandit]

28. Russia engages in exactly the same sort of shit we engage in.

So yeah, they're not to be trusted.

[TeeYiYi]

33. I think we need to wait...

...until the propaganda settles down and someone has actually taken ownership of this tragedy, before making ultimatums.

TYY

[yurbud]

37. I hope it does settle down

[LuvNewcastle]

50. I agree. I want to find out exactly what happened first, although I know,

we aren't likely to get the whole truth. The main thing I want to know is, was it an accident? If it was, I see no reason to do that much about it. Accidents do happen, and you can't have a lot of sanctions or a war because of an accident. If it could be proven that the plane was shot down with malice aforethought, which isn't likely, then that would be a very big problem. But nothing should be done until we understand what happened and I would need to figure out how much of the story I hear is believable. I don't have anything to say about it, really, until I get some facts straight about it.

[davidpdx]

54. I agree with waiting until things settle down

As for ownership, I am doubtful it will happen. It's going to take months to finish analyzing the data and pieces of the plane once the right people are at the crash site. I hope for everyone's sake the bodies are returned quickly to their families so they can at least have a funeral.

Once indisputable proof is obtained I think the US and Europe need to look at harsher sanctions.

[hrmjustin]

42. Diplomacy is important and we need to keep on talking with them.

[dsc]

46. frankly Russia should have been isolated for her treatment of gays

then they should have been isolated for the invasion of Crimea and then the defacto invasion of eastern Ukraine. Admittedly the main problem is a lack of European backbone in regards to Russia but one would hope that the backbone exists now.

[yurbud]

47. How do they treat gays in Saudi?

[dsc]

48. we should isolate them too

though russia is worse for the invasion stuff.

[yurbud]

58. funny how our government never gets around to isolating useful human rights abusers

[Blue_Tires]

49. It depends on how Russia handles it, i.e.,

1. How long it takes for them to find some fucking decency and allow the dead to be counted, repatriated and buried...
2. How long it takes for them to allow crash investigators to have full, unfettered access to the site
3. How much (if any) they have interfered with the site or obstructed the investigation

Right now Putin needs to come clean and be thanking his lucky stars that it was "only" Malaysian...If that 777 said Air France or British Airways or El Al on the side and Putin started playing cute games with crash investigators, we'd probably be close to the brink of WWIII about now...

[LuvNewcastle]

52. It's all about the flow of information at this point.

The sooner we have the facts, the better. And like you said, thank Gawd it wasn't a British, French, or Israeli plane! I really hope we get plenty of information, it's determined to be an accident, and it's all forgotten about. We don't need this right now.

[davidpdx]

55. Good points

There is still a window to have cooperation, but it is going to close fairly quickly.

I also agree that they are lucky it was a Malaysian plane and not one of the other larger countries.

[yurbud]

60. none of those things are grounds for war

[EmilyAnne]

53. Russia doesn't have to be Putin. nt

[yurbud]

57. that reflects one creepy theory I stumbled across

that the Ukrainian military tried to shoot down Putin's plane on return from the BRICS summit.

Putin himself put the kebosh on that one, saying they've avoided that airspace since the conflict started, but it's not hard to imagine some Ukrainian thinking that would be a game changer.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/malaysia-airlines-mh17-was-putins-flight-original-target-missile-attack-1457170

[flamingdem]

56. Other. Putin will make some concessions that

he otherwise wouldn't have made. Things will improve by next year.