If we all agree that the shootdown of MH 17 was a mistake

[Max power]

Then what else is there to talk about ?

The United States has shot down a civilian aircraft by mistake, and if there would've been sanctions against us Americans would've been outraged by it

The Israelis attacked the USS liberty by "mistake" , killing a few dozen Americans.... If there would've been sanctions placed on Israel the United States would've been outraged by it

The United States pulled Saddam Hussein off of the list of states who sponsored terrorism, just so we can arm him to kill his own people, of course if sanctions were placed on the United States we would've been outraged by it

The United States has a long long history of arming rebel forces that killed innocent people, and Americans were never held accountable for it

Now we see that Russia has armed rebels who have mistakenly shot down a civilian aircraft, and the world is outraged

It's become very clear that the world is not concerned about murdered people, they are only concerned about who murders the people

[Iggo]

1. We all agree?

[Max power]

3. It looks like

The rebel force mistakenly shut down the aircraft

It appears they didn't intentionally decide "let's shoot down a civilian aircraft" and bring the weight of the world down on us

I'm sorry, I didn't realize there were people that actually thought this was intentional

My bad

[Iggo]

15. Why does it look to you like they shot it down by mistake?

Where does it appear that they didn't intentionally decide "let's shoot down a civilian aircraft" and bring the weight of the world down on (them)?

I have no idea whether it was intentional or not. There's nowhere near enough evidence available to me to come to that conclusion.

Where are you getting your evidence that it was an accident? And please explain why that evidence is so strong that you would think "we" would "all agree" it was an accident.

[snooper2]

25. "rebel force", you mean the pro Rus-Si-A terrorists right?

[MohRokTah]

2. The outrage is warranted.

Supplying sophisticated weaponry capable of taking down a jetliner to a misfit militia filled with untrained thugs is irresponsible and thus those who supplied the weaponry are guilty via depraved indifference.

It is a crime, even if it was a mistake.

[Max power]

6. Didn't we forfeit our moral high ground

When we shot down and Iranian civilian aircraft ?

When we insisted nothing happened to Israel after the attack the USS liberty ?

When we armed Saddam Hussein and use these weapons to kill his own people ?

Wouldn't that make us hypocrites ?

[MohRokTah]

12. No.

[Throd]

20. No, and I didn't do any of those things.

[LanternWaste]

44. Not to anyone who believed we should not have armed Hussein...

"Wouldn't that make us hypocrites?"

Not to anyone who believed we should not have armed Hussein in the first place (which is I believe, the vast majority of DU)...

Recognizing awful actions orchestrated by one government does not deny, nor diminish those same actions taken by other governments-- if should that other government be one's own.

[GeorgeGist]

59. I didn't support any of those scenarios.

So that leaves you to commiserate your hypocrisy without me.

[William769]

7. ...

[randys1]

30. Exactly

[morningfog]

32. So, what should the US do to Russia as the punishers and enforcers?

[MohRokTah]

33. Any actions cannot be unilateral from the US

It must be NATO that responds and initial responses must be diplomatic and economic in nature. Though a military response is always on the table, it should not be resorted to unless Russia increases its efforts to destabilize Ukraine.

[atreides1]

52. You really want a war?

Are you advocating for war if it's deemed necessary?

I got news for you, Ukraine doesn't mean squat to me...didn't mean squat to me when the elected government was being tossed out by the pro-Western terrorists...and means even less to me now!

[MohRokTah]

54. If necessary, military action must be taken. That doesn't mean I WANT it.

It's a NATO thing. As of now, six member nations had innocent civilians blown out of the sky. Any one of those six could call for military action against the separatists for the issue and all member nations would have to respond.

I don't see that happening. The only way there would actually be military action from NATO would be for a major incursion of Russian forces moving into Eastern Ukraine, and even then it might not happen, though I think it highly likely that war would ensue if Putin gets that stupid.

But again, all it takes is one of those six member nations to call for military action under the NATO treaties. All six nations have experienced an attack. Any of them can call for a military response. You don't see any calls for that, do you?

[pampango]

41. The case should be taken to the International Court of Justice as was the US shootdown

of the Iranian passenger plane. The US "recognized the aerial incident of 3 July 1988 as a terrible human tragedy and expressed deep regret over the Loss of lives caused by the incident ...".

In 1996, the United States and Iran reached "an agreement in full and final settlement of all disputes, differences, claims, counterclaims" relating to the incident at the International Court of Justice, including a recognition of the incident in the form of "...the United States recognized the aerial incident of 3 July 1988 as a terrible human tragedy and expressed deep regret over the Loss of lives caused by the incident...". As part of the settlement, the United States did not admit legal liability but agreed to pay on an "ex gratia" basis US$61.8 million, amounting to $213,103.45 per passenger, in compensation to the families of the Iranian victims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

If the rebels in Ukraine and their Russian supporters were to acknowledge their guilt and seek to reach an agreement on settling the dispute, I doubt that any sanctions would result from this.

[CBGLuthier]

4. I do not consider any of those plane shoot downs to be mistakes.

In each case a plane was targeted and a missile was fired at the plane by the willful actions of an alleged human being. Those were not mistakes.

Even if we are not splitting semantic hairs I do not consider them mistakes. The KAL one was very deliberate. The Iranian one, IMHO, was very deliberate too. Neither America or the Soviets give a fuck about anyone else and they barely give half a fuck about their own citizens.

[WinkyDink]

26. I actually think KAL-007 WAS a mistake, but that the Iranian Airbus was not.

[EX500rider]

48. The KAL-007 shoot down certainly wasn't a mistake...

The Soviet fighters got close enough to ID it and shoot warning rounds. (unlikely the Boeing saw them as there were no tracers loaded, only AP)

"General Kornukov (to Military District Headquarters-Gen. Kamensky): (5:47) "...simply destroy [it] even if it is over neutral waters? Are the orders to destroy it over neutral waters? Oh, well."
Kamensky: We must find out, maybe it is some civilian craft or God knows who."
Kornukov: "What civilian? [It] has flown over Kamchatka! It [came] from the ocean without identification. I am giving the order to attack if it crosses the State border."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007

[MADem]

53. I remember KAL--that was deliberate, and that wasn't a surface to air thing--that was a pilot with

eyes on his target shooting that thing down.

They thought it was a 'fake' passenger plane, that in fact it was a spy a/c...or at least that is what they claimed.

In a 1991 interview with Izvestia, Major Genadi Osipovich, pilot of the Su-15 interceptor that shot the 747 down, spoke about his recollections of the events leading up to the shootdown. Contrary to official Soviet statements at the time, he recalled telling ground controllers that there were "blinking lights".[36] He continued, saying that "I saw two rows of windows and knew that this was a Boeing. I knew this was a civilian plane. But for me this meant nothing. It is easy to turn a civilian type of plane into one for military use..."[36] He furthermore did not provide a detailed description of the aircraft to his ground controllers: "I did not tell the ground that it was a Boeing-type plane; they did not ask me."[34][36][note 3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007

[dipsydoodle]

61. Siberia Airlines Flight 1812

wasn't deliberate : was an accident.

Nobody could've foreseen that with two missiles fired at a drone one would hit the drone and the other destroy an airliner flying at 37.000 feet 150 miles away.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812

[samsingh]

5. wtf - who's agreed it was a mistake?

I guess you're saying that once a crime is committed we should just move on.

[Max power]

8. That's the way the US has seen it

Or a very long time

Like I said Americans don't care who gets murdered, the only care about who's doing the murdering

Why should Russia face sanctions for the same exact crimes the Americans have committed and face no sanctions ?

[Maedhros]

47. We routinely kill civilians with our drone strikes and nobody cares.

Ukrainian rebels do so and everyone is out for blood.

Anyone with a real, rather than nationalistic, sense of justice is outraged at all atrocities and not just the ones that benefit one's own country's foreign policy aspirations.

[FSogol]

9. Yes, let's not hold Putin/Russia responsible for arming some rebel yahoos who

accidentally shot down a civilian aircraft because bad things happened in the past.

and

[Max power]

11. I am not prepared to be a hypocrite

On the issue

That's why

When you say bad things happened in the past, what you really mean is the exact same thing happened in the past

I guess some people are comfortable with hypocrisy

[FSogol]

13. And some people are just Putin apologists. BTW, Welcome to DU. n/t

[Max power]

36. Not comparable to shooting down A passenger plane

One of the examples is the United States shooting down a passenger plane

Like I said I am not prepared to be a hypocrite on the issue

[Max power]

49. So if they admitted it

You would be satisfied

I highly doubt that

[Hekate]

57. According to Rachel Maddow, this is the 4th time Russia has been directly or indirectly involved. nt

[Ellbee]

43. So because, in your opinion, bad things happened in the past...

... we are not qualified to have an opinion on anything?

Who has a saintly enough record to pass that high hurdle?

[Raine1967]

50. YOu are it seems, prepared to argue a straw man debate of your own making.

Welcome to DU.

[bluedigger]

10. For one thing, no one has owned up to it.

Your first two examples were claimed by State actors, whether or not their explanations were widely accepted. The rest is just moral relativism.

[geek tragedy]

14. For one, the perps have not admitted they did it.

Two, it is a symptom of Russia's ongoing misconduct on the region, which must end.

[randome]

16. You overlook the unpleasant fact that a big chunk of the world supported our invasion of Iraq.

Still a travesty, by any definition.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[randome]

31. Agreed.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[Max power]

46. I didn't realize

The situation could be rectified so easily

According to you, All Russia has to do is admit it was the rebels

And everybody would be satisfied

Do You actually believe everybody would be satisfied if Russia admitted this

Do You actually believe that YOU would be satisfied with the issue if Russia admitted this

Do you believe the words that you're typing ?

[SidDithers]

17. Yeah, welcome to DU...

Sid

[MohRokTah]

34. Should that be "welcome back"?

[Hekate]

58. Probably

[WinkyDink]

19. "The United States has a long long history of arming rebel forces." Only vs. democratically-

elected govts. Sometimes we support the Fascists in power.

[FSogol]

35. Those aren't rebel forces, the ones we arm are freedom fighters.

[Louisiana1976]

51. Or we call them freedom fighters. One person's terrorist is another person's

freedom fighter.

[conservaphobe]

23. No, accidental murder is still murder.

It's codified in the laws of every civilized nation on the planet.

[WinkyDink]

24. No, then it is manslaughter, and punished differently.

[conservaphobe]

28. Not sure about that. There was intent and premeditation to kill someone.

Just because it wasn't a Ukrainian plane doesn't change that.

[Iggo]

42. Yep. Intent follows the bullet.

[Cali_Democrat]

27. The world cannot sanction America like other countries

The world economic system is essentially rigged in America's favor. That's why there was no real discussion of sanctions during the Iraq War. It isn't feasible.

[WinkyDink]

29. TPTB will agree that it "was" whatever it needs to be to produce agreed-upon results: peace or war.

[Lee-Lee]

37. We better not speak up about slavery, abuse of indigenous people...

... expansion of territory by force, pollution, use of nuclear weapons, attacks on civilian populations, or anything else- because according to this logic if the US has ever done it we can never speak up about it...

[conservaphobe]

38. Yep. You just described the worst kind of hypocrite.

They decry those things when the U.S. does them, but give every other thug on the planet a free pass.

It truly reveals what they really hate.

[lapislzi]

40. A preventable mistake brought on by a specific set of actions and behaviors

And choices, on the part of Russia and its proxies in Ukraine.

When was Saddam Hussein a state? I missed that one.

Your post is asinine.

[LanternWaste]

45. As of yet, I see no strong, valid evidence ruling out everything other than a mistake.

"If we all agree that the shootdown of MH 17 was a mistake..."

As of yet, I see no strong, valid evidence ruling out everything other than a mistake.

[stevenleser]

55. Because there are different degrees of mistake. This one falls on the negligent side.

It was negligent of the Russians to train the rebels on how to use these weapons without making sure they were trained on how to tell the difference between different aircraft and it was negligent of the rebels to shoot at anything that crossed their scopes.

[Hekate]

56. Russia has done so 4 times to our 1, for starters. Look up Rachel Maddow's segment on same...

... back when this all started. That should give you some perspective.

In addition, Putin is running this show in the Ukraine. Those aren't "rebels," they are Russian military.

The US has its own troubles and its own grimy hands, but when it comes to shooting civilian passenger aircraft out of the sky, we should beware of engaging in false equivalencies.

[brooklynite]

60. So because we or our allies of ours have done something wrong, it's okay for everyone else?

[Swede Atlanta]

62. You are absolutely right.....

Reagan awarded the commander and I believe even the person who manned the weapon that took down the Iranian CIVILIAN airliner with medals. You are doing a great job there Brownie.

I mean really. Who are we to lament the fact that these rebels shot down a civilian airliner simply because many Westerners (you know - look like me and not like some foreigner) were onboard and not show any public or other remorse or grief when we kill hundreds of innocent Iranians?

I feel deeply for the loss of life of those aboard MH17. I abhor this was possibly an 'accident' in an undeclared war.

But we have to stop being so hypocritical. Those innocent Iranians no more deserved to die by a U.S. missile than the citizens of those 17 nations on MH17.

We must stop the madness.

[Bluenorthwest]

63. A 'mistake' in which doofus fascists were given weapons they can't handle by other fascists so they

killed the wrong set of people might be forgiven if said doofus fascists admitted the action and faced accountability along with those who armed them. People apologize for 'mistaken' mass murders. It's considered the thing to do in polite society. So that's what would be left to talk about.
Of course they were intentionally shooting at aircraft while not being a government at war but just a bunch of petulant fascists on the rampage. So 'mistake' is a bit of a stretch.