General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsDon't abandon the fight for Europe, It needs us now more than ever
Halfway through the March 2012 siege on the Toulouse apartment of Mohammed Merah the killer of four Jews and three French soldiers in southern France I took a break in the local café with a couple of colleagues. To our surprise, the patroness who served us our drinks addressed us in heavily accented Hebrew. For 10 years Monique had lived in the southeastern Jerusalem neighborhood of Gilo, on Haanafa Street which, for the first year of the second intifada in 2000, had been under nightly fire from Beit Jala across the valley.
She came back to Toulouse after failing to find suitable long-term employment in Israel. No hard feelings, thats 21st century emigration you try your luck in a new country, it doesnt always work. She didnt seem overly concerned that the perpetrator of the worst anti-Semitic attack in Europe in a generation lived just down the road. Theres a few Muslim families in this neighborhood, she said, all very nice and not at all extreme. Her son Elchanan, who had recently embraced religion but didnt seem to mind sitting with his black kippa and beard in the café while his mother served obviously non-Kosher steak frites, was less sanguine. There hasnt been any bad violence for many years, but theres anti-Semitism no one wants to talk about. Curses and nasty things shouted at Jews on the street. Theres a lot of that, even if theres no violence.
I thought about Monique and Elchanan a lot this week. I thought about them and other typical European Jews, living their lives between the continent and Israel, between secularism and religion, when mobs in Paris tried to storm synagogues and kosher groceries; when crowds in Berlin called to send the Jews to gas chambers; when a former European parliamentary member for the British Liberal Democrats tweeted that the official representative body of British Jewry is a frightful bag of disputatious Jews.
The rights and wrongs of the conflict between Israel and Hamas, and the responsibility for death and suffering in Gaza, are totally immaterial to this outburst of Europes oldest hatred and shouldnt be debated in the same context. Anyone who attempts to deal with both issues in the same breath is trivializing and excusing hatred of Jews. There is no justification whatsoever in holding a protest, even a peaceful one, over events in the Middle East outside a synagogue. A few of Palestines advocates have rightly spoken out against this, while many who have remained silent (one despicable American website tried to blame French Jews) have shamed themselves as apologists for anti-Semitism and shamed those who honorably stand up for the Palestinians without being tainted with racism.
more: http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/jerusalem-babylon/.premium-1.607109
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]
Behind the Aegis
(53,955 posts)The ACTUAL quote:
randome
(34,845 posts)Is Israel a nation? A race? A religion? They want to be all those things at once, which also makes no sense. In the meantime, kill, kill, kill.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Sometimes it seems like the only purpose in life is to keep your car from touching another's.[/center][/font][hr]
Behind the Aegis
(53,955 posts)What do German, French, Irish, Italian, etc. Jews have to do with expressing displeasure or hate for Israel?
If Syria attacked Sardinia (Italy), would it be acceptable to burn down a mosque in Chicago? Would it even be relevant? How would staging a protest in front of a mosque in the US be "acceptable?"
JustAnotherGen
(31,818 posts)It makes no sense to protest outside of a synagogue in France (regardless of who is doing the protesting) - over what another country is doing.
Go to the Israel Embassy in Paris. Leave ones fellow country folk alone.
randome
(34,845 posts)...have deliberately commingled the identities I mentioned.
They want to be a race, a religion and a geographic location simultaneously. Why would the writer of the article act surprised when people accept the commingling of those identities?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]If you don't give yourself the same benefit of a doubt you'd give anyone else, you're cheating someone.[/center][/font][hr]
Behind the Aegis
(53,955 posts)WOW!
randome
(34,845 posts)'Those running the show' refers to the political leaders in Israel. And the Israeli people have accepted this commingling of identities to the detriment of the world.
You might just as well worship an orange traffic cone as belong to any organized religion. The only thing these religious stances take is to divide the world and lead to strife.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]
Behind the Aegis
(53,955 posts)"Bullshit. The Jewish people (at least those 'running the show')..."
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Blaming all Jews worldwide for the Israeli government's actions smacks of 'Elders of Zion' type thinking.
randome
(34,845 posts)...sometimes referred to as 'the Jewish people'.
Nothing excuses anti-Semitism. Calling for Jews to be gassed is just as abhorrent as bombing school children.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]
JustAnotherGen
(31,818 posts)So do many of the recent immigrants to France from North Africa.
France is not America - and their issues of "race" are very similar to ours only insert Arab instead of Latino - and Jewish instead of black.
And this action by one maligned group to another is going to embolden the smoldering anti semitism on the Far Right there. What the Muslims in France don't get is - they are next.
randome
(34,845 posts)Is race for immigrants from N.A. the same as their religion or their geographical location?
You're probably right about Muslims being next. Because their religion is just as tied to race and location as that of the Israelis. Both these races/religions/geographical locations have that much in common. And that much to abhor.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]
JustAnotherGen
(31,818 posts)That's why S.O.S. Racisme exists. The Far Right is taking advantage of them. SOS Racisme called it in the mid 1980's. The French put the race card in the deck - not me.
I brought up race to show you where my heart is. It would be like me - a black woman in America getting into bed with the likes of that dumb as Perry down in TX to be hateful towards migrant children at the border. They aren't taking anything from me - and the Jews of France aren't taking anything from the Muslims. They aren't doing this to them. On that note - Muslims in France (many from North Africa) aren't taking anything from anyone.
It's the same bullshit no matter where you go in the world - be it for religious or race reasons. Now I'm probably going to get hit with a ton of bricks but it's highly likely that if one is an older white male at DU - I'm not talking about anyone at DU . . . I'm talking about people like the Kochs, Trump, Dick Devos, etc. etc. - Same bullshit different country - older white millionaires and billionaires taking advantage of disadvantage to make a buck or two off of conflict.
Why can't we see this for what it is? We are all being played - including the people of Israel and Gaza.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)If people want to protest what Israel's doing to Gaza, head for the Israeli embassy. But not synagogues. French Jews are no more responsible for what Israel's doing than French Muslims are for what Hamas is doing...
JustAnotherGen
(31,818 posts)We've seen modern day religious hatred get out of hand in America - how can we not see what a lightning rod this could become in France.
Someone is going to get hurt . . .
JustAnotherGen
(31,818 posts)Adding also -Outside a Mosque or a Synagogue.
It's poor form.
Behind the Aegis
(53,955 posts)Are you saying a protest shouldn't take place outside of Israel/Gaza? If so, I dont' agree. I think it is OK to protest events even outside of the affect countries. However, I do agree, protesting outside of a mosque/synagogue over issues in the ME is bigoted and unacceptable.
ETA: OK, I saw your other post. We are on the same page!
JustAnotherGen
(31,818 posts)The Israeli Embassy is where people should focus their energy.
It wouldn't be acceptable to me if a bunch of folks showed up at the Synagogue in my town this weekend. What's the point? My neighbors and friends have nothing to do with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict - they aren't the decision makers. They are Americans. Likewise - the folks in Greater Paris (including the suburbs) have zero influence over the Israeli Government.
Behind the Aegis
(53,955 posts)I agree with you. Outside the Israeli embassy/consulate is fine, outside a synagogue is unacceptable! Chanting "Gas the Jews" is beyond reprehensible and shouldn't be blamed on Jews or Israel.
JustAnotherGen
(31,818 posts)It's only a matter of time before it turns to 'Gas the Muslims'. I was involved with a very wealthy white male from Lyon - and I wanted to see where those riots had taken place in Paris a few years back. This was a man whose mother at 73 years of age was still waiting for her father to come back from Barbie's house of horrors in Lyon. He never came back - he wasn't Jewish - he just knew right from wrong and died for doing the right thing. This man - laughed when he took me by those suburbs (we were in Paris together for New Years) where one of the train cars is that took French Jews to their death as a museum. And around it is now subsidized housing where the Jews and others who the Petain regime and Hitler targeted were held. And he laughed - 'Well at least they are all in the right place."
Yeah - that relationship didn't last long. To him - Muslim is a race. As is being Jewish. And that's the guy with the power in France. That's they guy that used to rub shoulders with Sarkozy. He's no different than Trump - he just buys factorys in China instead of Casinos in NJ. I'd bet J.C. is sitting in Ramatuelle at his summer home laughing his ass off right now because that's what he is.
I've seen it first hand. They can only hold it in for so long France - before the true colors show. And I'm thinking Ms. Le Pen is just LOVING this bullshit. She's loving it. And if she loves it - then we ought to be against.
BTW - it plays into the Far Right's belief that 'those people' (Muslims/North Africans) are 'savages'. They are being played.
Response to Behind the Aegis (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed