'No more deaths': Thousands of Israelis protest the Gaza war

[Violet_Crumble]

Cross-posted from the I/P group. An Israeli who's a regular there posted it, and it deserves more people to see it...

Some 5,000 Israelis on Saturday evening protested the war in Gaza under the banner, ”No more deaths – Israeli-Palestinian peace, now.” The protest took place at Rabin Square in central Tel Aviv.

Speakers included Hadash MK Dov Khenin, an Israeli and Palestinian veteran from the organization Combatants for Peace, and Yifat Solel, the head of the Meretz party’s anti-occupation forum. Meretz, however, did not back the demonstration as a party. Ben Kfir of the Parents’ Circle, whose daughter was killed in a Hamas suicide bombing in 2003, also spoke, refuting the government’s claim that there is no partner for peace among the Palestinians. The speakers criticized the government for its attitude toward peace negotiations, and for resorting to war as a default policy. Demonstrators chanted “Jews and Arabs refuse to be enemies,” called for an end to the occupation and the siege on Gaza, and lit candles to commemorate the victims.

Roughly 300 right-wing counter-protesters were on the scene trying to reach the main demonstration. A large police presence circled the square in order to keep the sides separate. Four were arrested.

Some two hours before the protest was set to begin, police canceled it over what they said was fear of a rocket attack. The permit for the demonstration was reinstated only an hour before it began – by which time busses of protesters en route for Tel Aviv had turned back. Police ended the protest at around 10 p.m., citing resumed rocket fire from Gaza, two hours before a “humanitarian” ceasefire was set to expire.

The invitation to the protest read:

On Saturday, the peace camp takes a stand at Rabin Square
The war is taking a heavy toll in lives and injuries on both sides, in destruction and horror, in bombings and rockets. We answer this by taking a stand and making a demand: end the war now!
We must end the war and start talking with the recognized Palestinian leadership of the West Bank and Gaza to end the occupation and the siege and to achieve independence and justice for both peoples – in Israel and Palestine.
Instead be being drawn, again and again, into more wars and more military actions, it is now time to lead the way to dialogue and political settlement. There is a political solution. What price must we pay – the people of the South and the other residents of Israel, and the people of Gaza and the West Bank – until we reach that solution?
Together, Jews and Arabs, we will overcome occupation and war, hatred, incitement and racism – and offer a path to life and hope


http://972mag.com/no-more-deaths-israelis-protest-the-gaza-war/94380/

If you want to see the pics of the RW counter-protesters, here's the original OP

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113473308

[Live and Learn]

2. Why should they renounce their faith just because some people

in power abuse the power and kill others? Do we renounce capitalism, Christianity, democracy or whatever else excuse the people in power use to justify killing others? Of course not, nor should we. What we should denounce is the people that use such excuses as a right to kill.

[randome]

9. Why? To make a powerful statement.

Helping support the delusional idea that magic words and lists of dos and don'ts will bring one closer to God sure as hell isn't helping the situation.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]

[oberliner]

3. "Why not renounce your faith"

Interesting comment.

[Violet_Crumble]

8. OMG! Look who dropped into GD!

Welcome back, Obie! Haven't seen you for ages.

[oberliner]

62. Took an extended break from DU

Easing my way back into the fray.

[Bonobo]

5. Not enough? You American?

If you are, wtf did YOU do when the US killed how many in your lifetime? A million people? Two million?

[randome]

10. I wasn't in a situation where renouncing anything would help.

Denouncing, yes, I did that. But renouncing what? My American citizenship? Not really helpful to my daughters.

But obviously protests against the Israeli military isn't having much effect. And it won't so long as the comfortable and well-heeled can still have their magic words and hats to bring them closer to God.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]

[Bonobo]

28. Cop out.

US killed on a magnitude of at least 4 orders more than Israel and you did zip

[randome]

33. I did not do zip. I probably didn't do as much as I could have, no argument there.

But I have never believed that America is magic or sacred, either. Religion is used like a gun to kill people. I wish multitudes of Muslims and Jews would help weaken the military junta by taking away some of the power of religion.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[Crunchy Frog]

53. Sounds like a bunch of excuses.

I'm sure that there's something you could have renounced in order to make a statement.

Denouncing is a whole lot easier than renouncing, but it sounds like you just didn't have the level of committment that you're demanding of other people.

[Jim Lane]

64. FYI this post survived an alert

I was Juror #5. I disagree with randome's post, I disagree with the decision to hide it, I disagree with your post, and I disagree with the decision not to hide it.


On Sun Jul 27, 2014, 06:55 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Not enough? You American?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5297169

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

WTF? Way to make this over the top personal. Extremely rude personal attack.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Jul 27, 2014, 07:06 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Just like the reporter, I felt this post made the issue personal for no good reason at all. The OP was simply trying to discuss the I/P issue.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: There is no personal attack here.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: The (now hidden) post by randome criticized Israelis for not sufficiently disrupting their personal lives to protest a government policy. I don't buy that argument, but I would not have hidden the post. Given that it was hidden, however, I don't think it fair that this response in kind be allowed to stand. If randome's post were still visible, then I would vote to leave this one alone as well.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: reasonable response in context
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Seems that this poster isn't the first or the only one to "take this over the top personal." I'll give it a pass considering the rest of the emotional opinions in the thread.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Scootaloo]

6. ...None of which stopped a war, ever.

Israel isn't killing in the name of a faith, unless you consider militant nationalism an expression of faith... Which I guess one could. But I read your comment to mean the Jewish faith and not sickening state-worship.

[randome]

11. Israel SAYS they are killing in the name of a faith.

That's the conundrum.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]

[Scootaloo]

14. No, they don't

Israel actually insists that it's not killing anyone, that instead it's Hamas killing them all, because apparently Hamas is manning Israel's tanks and missile batteries and whatnot. Still bullshit, but still, israel makes no claim that it's killing for Judaism.

[randome]

18. You really think Judaism has nothing to do with this?

Israel isn't saying so in explicit words but we know what this is really about. It's the 'right' of Israel -not to defend itself- but to take away from others in the name of their faith.

Do you really think this is just your run-of-the-mill border dispute?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font][hr]

[Scootaloo]

43. Yes, I really think Judaism has nothing to do with this.

And no, it's quite a bit more than a "border dispute."

I'm also growing convinced that you're trolling in an effort to divert the course of the topic away from the suffering of Palestinians and peoples' response to that. So. we're done. Go read a book. Or fifty.

[Starboard Tack]

21. Where does Israel say that?

[randome]

25. They don't. Did George Zimmerman freely confess to a hate crime?

But if you think the killing has nothing to do with Judaism, you are fooling yourself. Israel has no need of the Gaza strip. They have no need to settle in occupied territory.

Nothing seems capable of stopping this military junta.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[Starboard Tack]

38. You seem somewhat confused.

I suggest you read on this before engaging in further discussion.
Military junta? George Zimmerman?
The two words you got right were "occupied territory", which is what the conflict is all about. Who gets to occupy what territory?

[cascadiance]

63. It is jerks like Netanyahu that CLAIM to speak for Israel and CLAIM that this is an act of faith!

That doesn't make it so!

Christians shouldn't renounce their faith just become some "Christian" terrorist bombs an abortion clinic and claims that he is doing it because "Christians believe this is an act of faith". There are many decent Christians as well as many decent Jewish people that should be able to uphold the values of their faith that many see as fine to have without those that want to warp them.

It is the same problem faced by many Muslims who don't want to endorse Bin Laden or other terrorists that claim to carry out acts of terrorism as an act of Muslim faith. They should be able to keep their faith and dismiss those that would try to make it in to those of a monster.

I'm proud of and would stand with many of these Jews in their messages here in this context. If that hurts some that want to claim I'm anti-semitic for my condemnation of what the Israeli government is currently doing, then so be it! Like most people here that want this to stop, I want PEACE between them, and not taking sides to condemn one religion or group of people or the other.

[Violet_Crumble]

7. Using that logic, shouldn't Palestinians give up their faith?

Let's do the simplistic and not correct thing of assuming all Israelis are Jews and all Palestinians are Muslim and all this is is one fucked up long-running holy war. Are you going to demand Palestinians give up their faith because the suicide bombings of the Second Intifada and the rockets Hamas fire into Israel are done in the name of their faith? What would that achieve anyway?

What those Israelis are doing is great. Those numbers being reported are really large for protests and rallies by Israeli standards. They're giving their government a clear message that they're opposed to what it's doing. It's the same message I sent to my government back when I went to a large rally protesting Australia joining in the invasion of Iraq.

[randome]

12. If both sides renounced their faith in large enough numbers, I believe it would help.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[Live and Learn]

17. Dreamer....

Do you really think wars are about faith? They are about power and money. Always have been and always will be. Those in power simply use religion, race, immigration and whatever else they can think of as ways to divide us to usurp or hold on to both their power and money.

[randome]

19. So take away their power to use religion as a pretext and you've weakened them slightly.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font][hr]

[Live and Learn]

22. Isn't that the very definition of blackmail? nt

[randome]

24. I have nothing against blackmail when it's directed at murderers!

Especially if the aim is to stop the killing.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[Live and Learn]

39. The protestors aren't the murderers.

What you are suggesting is that they if they give up their non-violent beliefs (you were speaking of the protestors,) it would stop the killing. What should they believe instead? If we all believe in nothing, do you really suppose that will help end wars?

[randome]

41. How about believing in something simpler? In being kind to people?

You don't need magic words or clothing to do that.

Intellectually, if one admits that all expressions of religion are equal, then they all become equally meaningless. Because if it doesn't matter that you're a Jew or a Christian or a Mormon, then why bother belonging to any of those 'clubs'?

Why not treat human beings humanely and let it go at that?

I know, I know, it's wishful thinking on my part.

I'm no expert on being Jewish, that's for sure. But I'm betting there is more in the Jewish faith that has to do with being Jewish than there is about being humane.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers, it's still gonna hurt.[/center][/font][hr]

[Chathamization]

45. Like how atheists should renounce atheism because of Mao and Stalin N/T

[randome]

46. Did they kill in the name of unbelief?

I am no atheist. I am a human being. That is all I will ever aspire to.

Interesting that you believe one must belong to a 'club' of some sort because...well, there simply isn't any other way, right?

There is another way. It doesn't have a name or a collection of sacred words and people are uncomfortable with that. Most can't conceive of being kind without some sort of papers or supernatural being forcing them to behave.

But for reference purposes, you can call it being human.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers, it's still gonna hurt.[/center][/font][hr]

[Chathamization]

50. Yes. Therefore, atheists need to denounce atheism. And the Left needs to denounce the Left

because of them (and others) as well. Environmentalism needs to be denounced because of James Lee. Chances are some nutcase somewhere has done bad things in the name of just about everything, so so we probably are going to need to renounce all of our beliefs.

[randome]

52. Lone nutcases do not approach the scale of what is happening with Israel/Palestine.

That is systematic, government-and-faith-backed apartheid. A different animal.

Maybe if we saw each other as truly naked -as human beings only instead of Jews or Muslims or Mormons- this would be a much healthier planet.

I'm simply tired of religion being used to justify endless atrocities.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]

[Chathamization]

55. Sorry, the communist parties of China and Russia were not "lone nutcases." So, time for atheists and

the Left to denounce atheism and the Left.

[Starboard Tack]

13. Faith has nothing to do with this mess

This is about land and how it is either shared or appropriated. All the rest is smoke and mirrors.

[randome]

15. And guns have nothing to do with murder.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[Live and Learn]

20. Except that they make it easier to do and much faster. That is a fact. nt

[randome]

26. So does religion. So long as people believe in magic words and sacred listologies, it will continue.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[Live and Learn]

30. Funny, people have always believed in something and

some of those beliefs that were once unfounded are later proven to be true. Perhaps you should save your criticism until your Atheist beliefs are proven to be true. And then you can work on changing the Constitution to make it illegal to believe any differently.

Until then, I suggest that we all play nice and respect each other and each others' beliefs and strive to bring attention to the REAL reasons for wars, greed and power.

[Starboard Tack]

36. What do guns have to do with faith?

Neither one commits murder. Guns are sometimes used as a means and faith is sometimes used as a pretext.

The IP issue is about land and statehood.

[randome]

37. It is not about those things. Hamas is virtually irrelevant.

Last edited Sun Jul 27, 2014, 08:53 AM - Edit history (1)

Israel uses their opposition as an excuse to continue grabbing land and herding the Palestinians into smaller and smaller ghettos. They don't need the land. They want the land.

It would be like no country wanting to sign a treaty with us because we have a few Sarah Palins amongst our citizenry.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[Starboard Tack]

42. Everybody wants the land.

If you don't understand why, you need to read your history.
I support the people on both sides and I condemn the leaders of both sides. There are no good guys in this conflict.

Just to give a different perspective on this, here is a FB post from Tel Aviv, shared by a Jewish friend this morning. Who knows if it is true, or just propaganda.

"Among it's other achievements fighting in Gaza, Israel also captured a few terrorists and was able to extract information about Hamas's plans.

When the soldiers interrogated the terrorists they asked "Why, with so many tunnels (41 so far) going deep into Israel, 25 meters below the ground, some of which reached as far as Beer Sheva - didn't you use them to attack, kidnap and/or kill Israeli civilians?
The answer was this:

"We have spend the last 12 years building those tunnels and were planning a massive attack against Israel in 2 months time.
We built those dozens of tunnels throughout southern Israel, reaching many towns, not for terror attacks, but to capture territory.
We were waiting for the upcoming Jewish New Year ,Rosh Hashana, (which usually falls in September). We knew that around this time of year most of the soldiers are released to their homes for at least 2 days of the Holiday.
We planned to have armed terrorists in each tunnel and to kidnap residents, take them back through the tunnels and scatter them throughout Gaza so that Israel would be unable to blow up the tunnels or attack Gaza. We knew they wouldn't risk killing or injuring their own civilians. Then we planned to use this advantage to attack and conquer the state of Israel and kill the Zionists. "

Hamas's plan was to pump thousands of soldiers through the tunnels to attack cities and military posts. Thousands of jihadists dressed as IDF soldiers would be assigned to kill, conquer and kidnap at a time when the IDF would have less time and resources to respond. At the same time the plan was to fire barrages of hundreds and thousands of missiles throughout the center of the country and to paralyze Israel's ability to respond. The hope was to disrupt Israeli infrastructure and civil defense as well. All this assumed that the Arabs of the West Bank and surrounding territories did not participate. Of course all efforts would be made to ensure their participation as well as that of Hezbollah in Lebanon.

The deep underground nature of the tunnels as well as the use of hostages were to have ensured immunity from air strikes by the IAF.

It was assumed that even if such an attack were to fail to overwhelm Israel, that given the scale of the attack and the level of bloodshed that International intervention would be required which would result in the dismantling of Israel as a Jewish state.

According to the captured terrorists, Israel was saved by the present operation.

The deaths of three kidnapped teenagers and the resultant sequence of events saved the State of Israel.

If we didn't have those troops in the south right now, nothing could have prevented the successes of the Jihadists's dream to kill the Jewish people in their land and conquer the Jewish country."

[randome]

44. Israel violates so many international laws, I would not trust anything they say.

Terrorists freely confessed? Hah! And there is ample evidence that those 3 Israeli teens were not killed by Hamas. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't but right now the evidence points against this.

Hamas is irrelevant. Israel uses whatever it can as a pretext to demean and kill.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers, it's still gonna hurt.[/center][/font][hr]

[Starboard Tack]

47. And you say Hamas is virtually irrelevant.

I doubt anyone in either Israel/Palestine or Gaza or the West Bank thinks Hamas is virtually irrelevant, especially Hamas itself.

[randome]

48. How many people have they killed with their firecrackers?

[hr][font color="blue"][center]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers, it's still gonna hurt.[/center][/font][hr]

[Starboard Tack]

56. Do you think relevance is based on body counts?

If that were the case, then AQ would be pretty irrelevant to the US. Appears not to be the case. Hundreds of rockets being fired randonly into populated areas can be quite relevant to the inhabitants of those areas. Israel's "Iron Dome" doesn't manage to get them all, just as Hitler's V1 and V2 rockets were quite relevant to the Brits. I was born in an area that was often targeted by the Luftwaffe. There was very little damage caused and no loss of life in my village, but I played in those bomb craters, as a kid and the air raid shelters my family hid in, terrified.
Trust me, Hamas is highly relevant and the stakes are high. Those "firecrackers" can be mighty scary.

[countryjake]

16. Some of these protesters are being followed after the demos...

and beaten up by the rabid Right-wingers who hate that they stand for Peace. Do you honestly think that "faith" has anything to do with it?

That Israeli Anti-War Demo spoke truth to power, a vicious ruthless power that is fully supported by the USA.

What are you prepared to "renounce" to get attention to stop it?

[randome]

23. Well, I have no religion because I believe it is intellectually demeaning to hold onto one.

So no one can use that as a pretext to kill in my name. Killing in the 'name' of America is just as abhorrent. And if there was anything I could renounce that would have stopped the Iraq war, I would have done so. But the sad truth is that much of the world supported that invasion.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font][hr]

[Live and Learn]

27. Renouncing what you believe to be truth is abhorrent itself.

War in the name of religion is equally abhorrent but expecting people to give up their beliefs because someone uses their beliefs as an excuse for war is absurd.

Would you renounce your daughters to stop a war? And even if you did, do you really think it would make a difference. Or, would you believe in a religion to stop a war? I doubt you could.

The entire notion is absurd and one of the reasons people came to the US (freedom of religion).

[randome]

29. A lot of those Europeans who first settled America were pretty unsavory characters.

Not all of them were simply yearning for freedom. Believe in a religion that is used as a pretext for killing? I don't get that.

It's time we stopped believing in magic words and magic clothing (Jewish, Muslim, Mormon, all of it) because it has always been subverted to evil means and it always will.

Would it make a difference if large numbers of Jews and Muslims renounced their faith? I say let's give it a try. Because even if things seem to be settling down for now, it won't be long before the killing machine is recharged.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[Live and Learn]

32. Well, you are entitled to your beliefs and suppositions even

if I find them ridiculous.

[countryjake]

31. The blood of every one of those Palestinians is on our hands, too.

Whether it makes some uncomfortable to admit it or not, those bombs and missiles and big guns, the F-16s and helicopters and drones are provided by our very own MIC. Even the fucking bulldozers that Israel uses to plow down ancient olive orchards are courtesy of the good ole USA.

Got any plans to do something about that?

[randome]

35. No, I don't. But I'm open to suggestions.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[cascadiance]

65. And perhaps it was our own bulldozers were used to kill our own citizens there too!

Rachel will not be forgotten by all who want peace!



http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-jP9tp6YBheg/UUF326elfGI/AAAAAAAAFFI/C0dU4cgKFUA/s1600/Rachel+Corrie.jpg



http://cdnimg.visualizeus.com/thumbs/e6/5b/corrie,gaza,girl,hero,israel,kill-e65b5145bf3faa756c45653bdd76f9cb_h.jpg

[countryjake]

4. Here's one more...

https://twitter.com/Elizrael/status/493113780218241024/photo/1

from Elizabeth Tsurkov's Twitter feed

Breaking news right now is saying that Hamas is agreeing to the extended ceasefire!


And another:



https://twitter.com/DrEoinCl/status/493103916486520832/photo/1

[Roy Serohz]

34. DUly RECommended

War. What is good for?

[malaise]

40. K & R

for peace

[Skidmore]

49. They need to vote out Likud

and find leaders interested in peace and political efforts to achieve it.

[think]

51. rec

[Douglas Carpenter]

54. knr

[whathehell]

57. Good to see. n/t

[sabrina 1]

58. Those Israelis are the ones who should be running Israel. The world would be a far better place.

But Israel has the same problem we have, their government could not care less what the people think and they are addicted to war.

[MisterP]

61. Bibi got a whopping 23% of the vote: everyone tried everything in their power and it didn't work

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_legislative_election,_2013

[Hekate]

67. An interesting fact about a multi-party system: a minority can wield tremendous power

That is, a guy with only 23% of the vote can become president or premier.

People should bear that in mind when they advocate the demise of our 2-party system.

[woo me with science]

59. K&R

[riverwalker]

60. Its 52 miles

from Tel Aviv to Gaza. What if the Israeli people en masse, loaded up convoys of food, medical supplies, disaster relief and went 50 miles to Gaza to help those digging out their dead children out of rubble with bare hands, helped bury them, and fed them, clothed them, treated injuries, comforted children. Only 50 miles away in the same land, people are bleeding, crying, starving, wailing with grief and despair in piles of destruction. Homes demolished, bodies rotting.
The majority in Tel Aviv will continue in their high rise, air conditioned modern urban life, go to cafes and concerts, and never hear the cries only 50 miles away.

So they had a little protest, how humane of them.

[Hekate]

66. Thanks, Violet. Thanks so much.

I sent it to my husband -- we've both been so sad.