Wed Jul 30, 2014, 12:13 AM
bigtree (75,429 posts)
NO ONE is responsible for this many attacks on innocent civilians, except the ones attacking themLast edited Wed Jul 30, 2014, 01:27 PM - Edit history (4) It's bullshit, plain and simple to blame Hamas for Israel's direct attacks on the civilian population in Gaza. It's even more ludicrous to blame the non-combatant civilians for the attacks, as some have done. No one is responsible for those attacks, except the Israeli attackers. That's not only common sense, it's also the dictate of international laws that govern military conflict. How can our government justify standing by, almost silent to the crimes - except to remind us that they hold Hamas responsible for Israel's actions; claiming beyond any proof offered at all, that it's Hamas putting these Palestinian victims in the way of the missile attacks? Never for a moment allowing that anyone on the Israeli side is responsible for placing civilians underneath Hamas sympathizer's rockets. Where are the demands that Israel show any proof that the risk from their targets outweigh the risk to Palestinian civilians? There is none. Israeli citizens are protected by an 'Iron Dome' of defense; Palestinians have no such protection. The U.S. defenders of Israel may well claim that Hamas is responsible for the violence and the killing by Israelis of men, women, and children, who are doing little more than dodging Israel's bombs and bullets. However, it's not clear at all what they expect Palestinian civilians to do to prevent combatants, on either side, from engaging in violence. In any instance, how can anyone claim that these civilians are in any way responsible for that? Where is the risk from the children they're maiming and blowing to bits? What is the goal of Israel, outside of outright punishment for things over which they have absolutely no control? Is it the annihilation of Palestinians that they're trying to effect, or is it some sort of punishment or coercion? Neither is within any moral boundaries that Americans assume our nation represents or stands for. History will remember how our government stood by and allowed this violence against unarmed civilians - actively funded the Israeli military effort and even considered funding them more at the same time their 'allies' bombs were falling on homes, schools, hospitals, refuge centers where civilians huddled to escape the unending carnage. History will correctly judge our nation as criminally callous and complicit in these crimes against humanity. History will wonder at our arrogance, and at our inability to restrain our military and its agents from pursuing ambitions far outside of the mandate of our constitution or conscience. We can scarcely hope to repair the injustice and the pain which our great and powerful nation has caused, around the world and here at home; through our greed, with our zeal, and by our neglect. related: Protection of civilians during armed conflict is a cornerstone of international humanitarian law Civilians in war UNRWA Condemns Israeli Shelling Of Its School In Gaza As Serious Violation Of International Law
|
30 replies, 1846 views
![]() |
Author | Time | Post |
![]() |
bigtree | Jul 2014 | OP |
daleanime | Jul 2014 | #1 | |
nadinbrzezinski | Jul 2014 | #2 | |
bigtree | Jul 2014 | #3 | |
nadinbrzezinski | Jul 2014 | #4 | |
bigtree | Jul 2014 | #6 | |
nadinbrzezinski | Jul 2014 | #7 | |
U4ikLefty | Jul 2014 | #5 | |
nadinbrzezinski | Jul 2014 | #8 | |
ReRe | Jul 2014 | #9 | |
ChiciB1 | Jul 2014 | #10 | |
Enthusiast | Jul 2014 | #11 | |
bigtree | Jul 2014 | #12 | |
Bettie | Jul 2014 | #13 | |
Igel | Jul 2014 | #14 | |
bigtree | Jul 2014 | #16 | |
CBGLuthier | Jul 2014 | #15 | |
bigtree | Jul 2014 | #17 | |
onenote | Jul 2014 | #18 | |
bigtree | Jul 2014 | #20 | |
onenote | Jul 2014 | #21 | |
bigtree | Jul 2014 | #25 | |
Scootaloo | Jul 2014 | #28 | |
LannyDeVaney | Jul 2014 | #19 | |
oberliner | Jul 2014 | #22 | |
Scootaloo | Jul 2014 | #27 | |
MisterP | Jul 2014 | #29 | |
aikoaiko | Jul 2014 | #23 | |
Pisces | Jul 2014 | #24 | |
PAProgressive28 | Jul 2014 | #26 | |
bigtree | Jul 2014 | #30 |
Response to bigtree (Original post)
nadinbrzezinski This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #2)
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 12:59 AM
bigtree (75,429 posts)
3. proof?
. . . no proof offered for such a serious charge.
You can't justify the carnage in Gaza with such a blanket statement. Nor can you justify the carnage in THIS conflict by posting an article from 2012. I'm surprised that you would presume to draw such an equivalency in THIS conflict based on an unrelated incident reported from over two years ago. |
Response to bigtree (Reply #3)
nadinbrzezinski This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #4)
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 01:16 AM
bigtree (75,429 posts)
6. those weren't the schools where casualties occurred from Israeli bombing
. . . in fact, many schools have been bombed, several with multiple civilian casualties; homes, hospitals, and refuge centers, as well. THOSE are the schools and civilian areas where it must be shown that there is a risk to Israel that outweighs the risk to civilians. That's the proof I'm talking about.
*edit |
Response to bigtree (Reply #6)
nadinbrzezinski This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #2)
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 01:16 AM
U4ikLefty (4,012 posts)
5. What about the rockets that are destrying Gaza?
I'm very disappointed. I guess compassion is in short supply when Israel does the killing.
|
Response to U4ikLefty (Reply #5)
nadinbrzezinski This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to bigtree (Original post)
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 02:20 AM
ReRe (10,593 posts)
9. K&R
![]() |
Response to bigtree (Original post)
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 02:40 AM
ChiciB1 (15,435 posts)
10. No Doubt... So Very Lopsided...
Will it never end???
|
Response to bigtree (Original post)
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 03:46 AM
Enthusiast (50,983 posts)
11. K&R! The Neo-Con war mongers are still hoping to spark that greater Middle East war.
You know, the one they wanted when they stole the 2000 presidential election and allowed (encouraged) 911.
The eyes of the zealots are growing bright as they contemplate the End Times®. Hey, it will pay for itself and deficits don't matter. |
Response to bigtree (Original post)
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 08:45 AM
Bettie (7,683 posts)
13. It's a disgrace
And our government is standing by and watching.
Disgusting. |
Response to bigtree (Original post)
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 09:27 AM
Igel (29,185 posts)
14. It's not "one size fits all."
There are instances--high-ranking military targets, munitions, fighters--in buildings with civilians. The civilians get it. "Proof" is often sufficient to establish likelihood, but usually in these cases "proof" for some will be a list of each and every item or person destroyed with the list of those people who'd have been killed by them if not destroyed. In other words, the level of proof skyrockets when you don't like the most probable verdict.
In such cases, though, the ultimate responsibility is going to be upon those who were responsible for protecting the civilians during armed conflict. And that's going to be the fighters and government who put them at risk. In these cases--it seems important to reiterate that clause each and every time because otherwise it might be taken as a blanket statement--the responsibility is Hamas'. It's not blaming the victim. It's blaming the guilty, even if they're also victims. One can be both quite easily. There are also instances where those hurling the bombs people do bad things. If you like to think that your side is composed of innocents and angels and the other side composed of devils and demons, so be it. But there will be cases where a school is hit, possibly by accident or possibly because they believed there was a legitimate target. Or perhaps because their standard of proof for making something a viable military target is simply lower than yours. This is a common problem because all the talk of "proportionate" and "sufficient" is non-quantifiable. It's also a common problem because people in groups make very far-reaching assumptions to justify those they self-group with or those they are in solidarity with, and equally far-reaching assumptions to denigrate those that they put on the other side of the group line or feel antipathy for. In any event, we're not really important enough as judges and officers of the court to merit having all the evidence sealed for our perusal. What we get from each side is for the court of public opinion, which is a far cry from any sort of legal proceedings. Sometimes "war crimes" requires intent; sometimes the word seems to require at least negligence, failing to avoid something that could have been avoided and which was easily predicted *in advance* (we're all very good at predicting things after the fact); sometimes it just requires an outcome that people don't like, even if it couldn't have been predicted and negligence is a hard case to prove. |
Response to Igel (Reply #14)
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 09:40 AM
bigtree (75,429 posts)
16. I don't see fine lines here
. . .the risk to those launching the bombs into the homes, schools, hospitals, refuge centers, must outweigh the risk to the civilians in the way of those bombings. It's not an abstract concept.
Just pointing out that bombs have been found in vacant and unoccupied schools - as the UN has done regarding two vacant schools in the past couple of days - isn't a blanket excuse or justification for other instances where occupied refuge centers, clearly notifying Israel that they are being used as such, have been bombed with multiple munitions. Even though the UN, itself, reported and condemned the two instances this week where they found rockets stored at the vacant locations, UN authorities are still labeling the deadly attacks on refuge centers based in schools as serious and actionable violations of international law. Retweeted by United Nations UNRWA @UNRWA 1h #UNRWA Strongly Condemns Israeli Shelling of Its School in #Gaza as a Serious Violation of International Law: http://www.unrwa.org//newsroom/official-statements/unrwa-strongly-condemns-israeli-shelling-its-school-gaza-serious#.U9jgCdJLOmo.twitter A Palestinian reporter on Democracy Now put it plainly: he said that even if there were Hamas combatants present at these occupied locations that are being attacked, the civilians killed far exceeded any number of combatants killed in those raids. That's what I'm referring to when I speak of the need and requirement of a risk to Israel outweighing the risk to civilians in the line of fire. |
Response to bigtree (Original post)
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 09:31 AM
CBGLuthier (12,723 posts)
15. Well I would also include the ones who financed it, you know, the USA
Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #15)
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 10:47 AM
bigtree (75,429 posts)
17. absolutely
. . . and are contemplating financing even more, poised to approve millions more as we speak to further strengthen Israel's 'Iron Dome' of defense. What about protection for the Palestinian civilians?
|
Response to bigtree (Original post)
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 10:50 AM
onenote (33,310 posts)
18. Are there really DUers blaming the civilians?
That doesn't make sense.
On the other hand, absolving Hamas of any responsibility also doesn't make any sense. |
Response to onenote (Reply #18)
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 11:18 AM
bigtree (75,429 posts)
20. why do you consider this to be directed toward DUers?
. . . and claiming that this is 'absolving Hamas of any responsibility' isn't
accurate and a cop-out - a deflection. I think most people could understand a defensive attack in a civilian or residential area if there was some target's risk to Israel which outweighed the risk to civilians. However, this level of carnage can't be justified as a legitimate defense. There is no risk to Israel from the Palestinian civilians caught in the way of their bombs; no more than the civilians caught underneath the bombs lobbed at Israel pose any risk to Hamas or Palestinians. Nor can the indiscriminate bombings be justified by declaring that one side or the other initiated the conflict. As the International Red Cross states: The protection of civilians during armed conflict is a cornerstone of international humanitarian law. Protocol 1 |
Response to bigtree (Reply #20)
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 11:20 AM
onenote (33,310 posts)
21. I asked a question. I guess you've answered it.
Response to onenote (Reply #21)
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 12:40 PM
bigtree (75,429 posts)
25. thank you for the opportunity
Response to onenote (Reply #18)
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 01:09 PM
Scootaloo (25,699 posts)
28. Hamas is responsible for Hamas
The decisions Israel makes, are Israel's decisions, not Hamas'.
This ain't rocket surgery y'all |
Response to bigtree (Original post)
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 10:52 AM
LannyDeVaney (1,033 posts)
19. Just imagine ...
if after the Boston Marathon bombing, we started shelling every subdivision where the bomber was hiding.
|
Response to LannyDeVaney (Reply #19)
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 11:23 AM
oberliner (58,724 posts)
22. Or imagine...
Indiscriminate bombing of Iraqi cities and villages on the vague notion that the government might have WMDs.
Or killing thousands upon thousands of Afghanis because folks there provided shelter for OBL. |
Response to oberliner (Reply #22)
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 01:01 PM
Scootaloo (25,699 posts)
27. Both, well-condemned from the left
Save, of course, the John mcCain wing of the democratic party
|
Response to LannyDeVaney (Reply #19)
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 03:50 PM
MisterP (23,730 posts)
29. or if *Russia* did
Response to bigtree (Original post)
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 11:29 AM
aikoaiko (30,081 posts)
23. Its hard for me to believe history will judge this as more than ongoing skirmish in an endless war
a la first and second intifada. |
Response to bigtree (Original post)
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 12:42 PM
PAProgressive28 (270 posts)
26. If you believe Israel's word that they aren't targeting civilians
then they have the most incompetent army the world has ever seen.
Or they are liars. Either one. |
Response to bigtree (Original post)
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 08:03 PM
bigtree (75,429 posts)
30. .
Agence France-Presse @AFP 2h
Carnage in war-torn Gaza as strike hits packed market http://u.afp.com/e7p via @YahooNews @Johnny_Davo |