Gaza. I agree it is a massacre and should stop immediately.

[Bonobo]

Yes, I have empathy, sympathy and sadness for the innocents who are being slaughtered.

I also have anger at those doing the slaughtering.

I ALSO have mixed feelings when people compare Israel to Nazis and talk about "genocide".

I am allowed to have conflicting feelings. I am a Jew and an anti-war progressive. It comes with the territory.

If you don't get what it is like to be a Jew, don't judge me. And the chances are that if you are not a Jew or some other type of minority, yes, you don't "get it."

[Roy Serohz]

1. I don't get it

You put it out there, right? (Just wanna make sure it's really you and not some agent provacateur.).

[Bonobo]

2. Yup, does it surprise you that some people have complex feelings, Roy? nt

[hrmjustin]

3. Life is full of conflicting feelings.

No I think the Nazi talk is unhelpful and wrong.

I think there is plenty to be outraged about and we don't need to use the erong words and muddy the debate.

I personally think Israel is wrong here.

[jaysunb]

4. I don't conflate Judaism with Israels' actions. n/t

[oldandhappy]

8. Thank you. This is a good point.

The war is political. Judaism is a faith.

I want the country of Israel to stop, to arrange guaranteed borders, to live with neighbors. I suspect the people in Gaza will take care of Hamas if the borders are guaranteed and open.

Hamas does not represent the people in Gaza any more than people of the Jewish faith represent the government of Israel.

And yea, my middle name is Pollyanna!!

[Egnever]

61. +1

[JI7]

5. yet when it comes to women you take a different stand

[Bonobo]

6. WTF? No, I really don't.

You shouldn't believe the hype, but could you please not turn my OP into a false personal attack on me?

[Roy Serohz]

7. HATE it when that happens, don't you?

Bonobo, I sympathize!

[Bonobo]

9. Roy, I responded to what you put in your OP. It is very different.

You said "German-Americans did not run roughshod over our media." implying QUITE DIRECTLY that Jewish-Americans are "running our media".

Those were YOUR words. I did not drag in something unrelated out of thin air.

[JustAnotherGen]

54. That is very direct

Anger at Israel's actions should not be used as an excuse to dredge up and recycle old propaganda. And it certainly should not be used as a battering ram against fellow Americans who just happen to be Jewish.

[sabrina 1]

10. Bonobo, I respect you. I understand the conflict. And I know you are a person of conscience.

Which is why I despise people like Netanyahu, Cheney and all those who USE people of good conscience to get support for their criminal wars.

I understand more than you can imagine. I will just say this, when people I respected, Hillary Clinton eg, voted to support the Iraq War, I was shocked. I fully expected her to do all she could to stop Cheney and Bush. I wanted to believe that the party I supported would do the right thing.

I watched the slaughter in Iraq, I saw the dead children, the tortured innocents.

To oppose evil even when it is perpetrated by those we once thought of allies, is always the right thing to do. So I opposed her, I will never support her. I had met her, respected her, she spoke for me. It was difficult to argue with Bush Supporters when they USED her to argue against my opposition to that massive War Crime. They pointed to HER 'even your hero, Hillary supported Bush'.

Wrong is wrong, and those who use our good intentions to perpetrate wrongdoing are EVIL EVEN IF they are 'one of us'.

I don't know how you will resolve the conflict you are experiencing but all I can say is, Netanyahu is your Cheney and does not represent you. But that is easy for me to say from my perspective.

I read the statements of a survivor of the Holocaust a few days ago regarding the actions of the Israeli Govt. For him, there was no conflict, his statements opposing the current Right Wing Israeli Govt brough tears to my eyes.

If I find it again, I will email it to you. Perhaps it will help.

[Bonobo]

12. Thanks Sabrina. My conflict really isn't over "supporting" Israel.

I vowed long ago never to set foot there as long as their policies continue.

No, my conflict (if there is one) is strictly trying to manage my reaction to defend against non-Jews attacking Israel. It is a type of defensiveness born from being attacked as a child over and over for being Jewish.

People that never experienced it won't get it. Try having pennies thrown at you every day or having swastikas drawn on your locker. Or being told that you "killed Jesus".

So when I even get a whiff of talk like "genocide" or stupid-ass comparisons to Nazis, I see red and it is hard to handle.

Thanks for understanding.

[BlueCheese]

14. Israel seems to get compared to the Nazis more than almost anyone else.

It's very strange. I would like to believe that this is because people are doing word-association in their minds, because I can't think of any other reasonable explanation.

I agree with you that it's offensive and despicable. The Syrian government has killed far more people (as in 100 times as many) in the region, and they're not committing genocide. The US government has killed far more people in the region as well, as nobody seriously said we were committing genocide in Iraq or elsewhere with our drones. Nobody will call Obama a mass murderer despite the thousands of people who have been vaporized by our military.

I think there are lots of things wrong with Israel's policies these days, but it seems a whole new set of terms gets used when we talk about Israel.

[Bonobo]

19. I couldn't have said that better. Exactly. nt

[sabrina 1]

15. I am so sorry that this happened to you. I did not know that.

No child should be exposed to such treatment and it makes me wonder where the adults were?

But there are people in this world, even if they themselves never experienced such evil, and it is evil to subject any child to such treatment, who are capable of empathizing with those who have.

I think you are one of those people. Your OP proves that.

Netanyahu is fodder for anti-Semites, he is making it easy for them. Which is why, imo, Jews need to make it very clear that he does not represent them. Just as Americans need to make it clear that Cheney does not represent them.

I wish I knew what to do, I am so sorry, we tried to stop it all, but we failed.

Thanks for being you!

[Bonobo]

17. Well said. No, Bibi does NOT represent Jews. He doesn't even represent most Israelis I think.

Thanks, Sabrina. So glad to know you.

[oberliner]

87. Jews need to make it clear that Netanyahu doesn't represent them?

Wow - do you really mean that?

[sabrina 1]

88. Who voted for him, Arabs? Who DOES he represent in your opinion.

Does he represent you, he doesn't represent me and yet my tax dollars are paying for his war crimes. I am beyond angry that our tax dollars are supporting this war criminal. And I can assure you, I am not alone.

So, who does he represent, the whole world is turning against Israel so clearly he doesn't represent a majority of the people on the planet. Two South American nations are considering recalling their ambassadors because of this latest slaughter of Palestinians.

He doesn't need to her from Palestinians that he doesn't represent them, he doesn't need to hear from most of the rest of the world.

He DOES need to hear from those who elected him and the last time I looked, that wasn't Americans or Arabs or Europeans. What is your point?

[Scootaloo]

22. When I see people taking a slaughter of other human beings and making it about themselves...

I see red too.

When I see someone deciding that concern for those human being means the concerned person must hate some other class of people, I see red.

When I see an abuse taking place, and a bunch of people standing around, jerking off over it, I see red.

When I see a a person deciding "tone" is the real issue, and not the systemic, generational crushing of a community of people, I see red.

Some people just have higher thresholds than others, I guess.

[Bonobo]

28. Not a "tone" thing.

It's a "word" thing.

You toss off words like "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing". That's not "tone". That's a "word" thing.

Learn the difference, okay?

[Scootaloo]

32. As I've explained, I've been a critic of using "genocide" as well

But I've come to a point where I really see no better word. when we look at Palestine, we see a system designed to erode and demolish an entire class of people - Maybe not specifically to render them extinct to the last individual, but certainly to render the concept of "Palestine" extinct, to demolish the people's identity, to throw them from their land, to render their experiences inadmissible to the rest of humanity, to reduce them to a crawling, bleeding nothing. To leave them as a broken husk, brushed from the pages of history.

English doesn't have a word for this that isn't "genocide." We have the similar "ethnocide" and "democide" but both are really just subcategories or extensions of "genocide." Your suggestion of "massacre" fits the killing, sure... this killing, and the last killing, and the killing before that, and the killing before that... How many "massacres" have to stack up before it becomes something else? And what of the rest of it all?

I've come to the understanding that the word itself is apt, but that peoples' expectations of it are skewed. Like if it's not twelve million people and they're not dying under the swastika, it "doesn't count." I gave a few examples of other genocides to you - Bosnia, Rwanda, Darfur, the Kurds, that the world just sat back and watched, with wags like yourself clucking their tongues at people for using "the G-Word."

It doesn't help that most admitted genocides have been swift affairs - the holocaust took four years, Cambodia took four years, Namibia three, Al-Anfal two, and Rwanda just a month. But then we have the purge of Native Americans, a process of five hundred years - that is still ongoing in parts of central and South America. Siberians have taken a long time as well, at three hundred years. Australians, a hundred and fifty or so. I would say the Jewish diaspora in Europe, prior to the Holocaust, was no less a genocide, with Jews forced more or less underground and incognito, only to be driven and killed in violent paroxysms against them - the Roma as well, though with a somewhat shorter history in Europe.

A genocide does not require swift extermination of every individual, Bonobo. It can be a grinding campaign of attrition, where the "losers" aren't purged, but everything about them is - an example being the Ainu of Japan, or the "boarding schools" that Native Americans and Australians were subjected to, intended to destroy everything that made them part of their people. A genocide is the eradication of the people, not just the individuals, but also what defines them as that people.

I'm pretty sure you can grasp that notion, that of a people transcending just the individuals that make up the group, yes?

[Bonobo]

33. Yes.

I grasp what you are saying and you said it well.

[Scootaloo]

35. Thanks

And for what it's worth, you didn't deserve my going off on you on that other thread. These are raw nerves getting scrubbed by sandy burlap for me, and I apologize for directing my "seeing red" at you.

I've seen too many people engaging in just callous, even "humorous" disregard for people's lives in this situation, because those people are the "wrong kind." I expect better of DU, I'm growing disgusted, to the point where even your - in retrospect - innocuous post looked like it needed a horn through the kiester.

Problem seems to be that I feel I can't just "sit it out".

[Bonobo]

36. It's okay, I'm having a hard time as well.

It's a terrible terrible situation. I have never supported Israel's policy and position and it is terribly weird to find myself in this position where I find myself being identified as a "defender" of them when in actuality, I am just finding myself defensive on issues of anti-Jewish feeling (which is, in some cases there, and some cases not there)

[DeadLetterOffice]

42. Right there with you.

You described the feelings and the weirdness very well.

[Puglover]

86. Your posts are better then home made caramel.

Covered in dark chocolate.

I appreciate your presence on this website very much.

[Fred Sanders]

81. Scootallo , I think I love you...your literary talent is a rare thing.

Wish you would post more OP's.

[ReRe]

30. FYI, Bonobo...

Had I been in your school when we were kids, I would have taken up for you, probably beating the tolly-wadden out of those racist brats. Just saying...

[Bonobo]

38. Thanks, ReRe.

I had to find allies where I could back then.

[Behind the Aegis]

41. I forgot about the pennies.

It only happened a few times to me and my brother two years younger than me (I never heard my younger brothers experiencing anything like it). The thing was when it happened, we never understood it. It wasn't until my brother got pinged in the eye that either of us ever said anything to our parents. They explained it.

Fourth grade was the worse. Tests on High Holy days for which I received "0's", made to sit in the hallway during the Christmas party so I wouldn't be "offended", a classmate threatening to "shoot me in the face with a shotgun" for killing Christ, and an occasional swastika.

As you say, the talk of genocide is just BS and used to make Israel look more like a villain; the Nazi shit, well, that is plain old anti-Semitic crap. Some of the same people making the claims screeched like lobotomized, coked out macaques when Clinton made a comment about Putin making moves like Hitler. Any other Nazi comparisons are shouted down and "Godwin" is immediately invoked, but when it is Israel...oh they can't get enough.

Then again, it is also "charming" being told I don't know what anti-Semitism is and isn't, that someone in their family is a Jew (an acceptable form, for some reason, of "some of my best friends are...&quot , or the idiotic, "Arabs are Semites, too!". Of course, there are also those who just can't accept a Jew talking about anti-Semitism or his/her experiences and the conversation MUST be directed into another arena. Since I don't "look Jewish," I also get to hear many things "good" people wouldn't normally say in public.

[joshcryer]

11. I don't even respond to the holocaust / genocide statements.

It's just so out of touch with reality it's a joke. Germany made it an industry to execute people. Millions of people. Executed. It's just impossible to wrap ones head around it because of the magnitude at which it happened. Does that excuse anything? No. Just don't make that short sighted comparison. They're completely different ballparks.

Call it what it is. Collective punishment. Willful murder. Even war crimes.

That being said, I think that Hamas and the Arab League and in particular Saudia Arabia is getting too much of a pass for their involvement in the conflict. The PA gets about $2 billion in aid. The US gives Israel about $4 billion in aid. Proportionately, the PA gets 7 times as much aid as Israel. There are some serious structural issues going on with the PA and Gaza. Serious.

What Israel is doing is wrong and it is benefiting Hamas and other extremists in the long run. Let the rockets rain down and just wait it out. Yes citizens will die. Maybe a whole ten citizens before they run out of rockets. Then what? Hamas and the people funding the rockets will no longer get any sort of recognition for "fighting" because nothing happened due to it. But because something has happened, because they are being responded to with far greater and excessive force, they are being seen as fighting against an enemy that wants to destroy them (even as their official doctrine is the destruction of Israel).

[Bonobo]

13. Beautiful, Josh.

You know, that's what I want to say, but it is hard to say even that on DU without being called an apologist.

[joshcryer]

20. Yeah

I tend to be of the belief that people can have different opinions about different things and even different opinions about certain aspects of a given issue. It's such a strange thing when if you have an opinion about something that automatically means you support it completely and irrevocably.

ie, I can say Israel is using excessive force while saying that Hamas' rockets aren't achieving anything good.

[morningfog]

23. That is how I see it. War crimes, crimes against humanity.

If Israel starts building and filling concentration camps or starts systematically killing thousands a day we can talk genocide. Until then, it is a massacre and war crimes. Totally unjustified and anti-thetical to their stated objectives.

[Bonobo]

25. And I can NOT disagree with that. nt

[ann---]

29. Each incursion

by Israel into Palestinian occupied land is worse and worse. More innocents die. How many have to die before the Israeli government is seen as terrorists? How many have to die in a war where one side has a gazillion dollars worth of weapons to destroy a people who have NO military and just weak "rockets" to DEFEND themselves against Israel's aggression.

Israeli government does not view Palestinians as human. That is the SAME way the Nazis felt about Jews. So, the deliberate extermination of innocent Palestinian children is no better than being killed in a concentration camp. in my view. The motive is the same - to get rid of the "inferiors."

[joshcryer]

39. The rockets do not "defend them" from Israel.

The rockets achieve absolutely nothing positive. Nothing. Period. You don't negotiate with people shooting rockets at you. It doesn't matter if they're practically bottle rockets you can get at a stand before the 4th of July.

[ann---]

64. Netanyahoo didn't

negotiate with Palestinians even when the rockets weren't being shot at Israel. Palestinians are fighting against Israeli occupation of their country - THAT is self-defense. Israel's murder of innocent children is NOT self-defense.

[joshcryer]

66. The Palestinian Authority has no power over Hamas.

And Israel has declared Hamas a terrorist agency. So there is not going to be "negotiating" with Hamas. The Palestinian Authority needs to reign Hamas in, which has ruled for 8 years and who have made little to no efforts to stop the rocket fire.

[Shemp Howard]

34. You're all over the place there.

"What Israel is doing is wrong and it is benefiting Hamas and other extremists in the long run."

Correct. Just as the expansion of the settlements on the West Bank will hurt Israel in the long run. Those settlements have completely destroyed the moral high ground Israel once had.

"Let the rockets rain down and just wait it out"

Huh??? You really lost me there. Do you really think Hamas would take it as a defeat if Israel didn't respond to the rocket attacks? No! Hamas would take it as a great victory. And don't forget, you can't just "wait out" those rocket attacks. For every rocket Hamas fired off, a new one would be smuggled in.

Israel had to respond. No country in the world would just sit and do nothing as rockets were fired into it. Israel's mistake was that its response was not proportional to the threat.

[joshcryer]

37. This is true.

Hamas would call it a victory, however, the people shooting them, and the people supporting the people shooting them would look at it as a pointless exercise. Because it didn't achieve anything. As it stands now they feel (rightly) persecuted since Israel is responding. So to the supporters of Hamas, the rockets were "justified."

Israel used the latest volly of rockets as a pretext to shut down tunnels and go after the smuggling rings. Israel gets hit by about 2 rockets a day, every day, for years. When Hamas ramped it up to 100 then Israel had an excuse to go after them.

There is no easy answer, I proposed letting them shoot as a way to let Hamas' supporters see that it's a pointless exercise.

[Throd]

16. Damn Bonobo, I'm an atheist and I'm conflicted too.

[morningfog]

18. Your sig line compares a group to Nazis.

Just thought I'd point that out.

Having done so, I don't think Israel has to be charged with genocide. They are clearly committing war crimes and have lost all pretense for respecting humanity. They stet to genocide yet. But they have gone too far, by degrees already.

[Bonobo]

21. It's a quote by Hunter Thompson.

And he used highly colorful language that was over-the-top to make a point. The charges of "ethnic cleansing" and even "the Final Solution" are not meant to be used that way. They are not "linguistic flourishes" but meant as a literal depiction of the reality.

[morningfog]

24. Got ya. I am not familiar with the quote.

[Uncle Joe]

26. I don't believe Netanyahu's government is committing genocide, Bonobo, but

at this point they are committing mass murder and they have ghettoized the Palestinians in Gaza.

I also don't believe Israel represents all Jews but their actions can stoke or incite anti-semitism because they are the only Jewish Nation and too many ignorant people categorize that as being the same.

As for comparing Netanyahu's current polices to Nazis before they committed the Holocaust, on that, I believe it's perfectly acceptable.

The Nazis didn't commit the Holocaust until they did, their blind hatred drove them to it, and in this, any nation or peoples can fall prey to that same human condition.

The Nazis; evil as they were are a yardstick measuring the most extreme elements of evil, they were black no pun intended on 50 shades of gray or perhaps 5000 shades.

All nations and their policies are some shade of gray, light or dark.

It seems to me that eliminating the use of a surefire measure of ultimate evil and what it's capable of doing, goes against the Holocaust Survivors' and victims' message of "never forget."

It's not that Germans or Nazis have a monopoly on evil but that all humanity can fall into the trap of haters; be they individuals or governments being literally consumed by their own hatred.

Peace to you, Bonobo.

[joshcryer]

40. Israel is not fully culpable for the state of Gaza.

That falls on the Palestinian Authority, Hamas, the Arab League, and Saudi Arabia. Israel is only culpable in so much that the blockaid allows Hamas to use it as a reason things are a mess there. But Hamas and the Palestinian Authority could easily, trivially, get the blockaid lifted. One reason building materials are banned is that they build tunnels with them. OK, so just have a trusted overseer account for the materials. There. Done. Stuff can be imported again. It's so utterly easy.

The thing is that they need there to be conflict. If they got along with Israel then there would be no issue, no NGOs, no need to pit a peoples against another peoples, no reason to be anti-Semitic, etc.

[Uncle Joe]

44. The Gaza Ghetto is severely aggravated by Israel's blockade. Any peoples trapped into a dense

open air prison will try to find any means possible to resupply and struggle to be free.

For the Palestinians in Gaza it's building tunnels, for the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto it was having their children go out and smuggle items in.

The blockade against Gaza has been going on for at least six years.

The Gaza Ghetto

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip

Gaza has an annual population growth rate of 2.91% (2014 est.), the 13th highest in the world, and is overcrowded. There is a limited capability to construct new homes and facilities for this growth. The territory is 41 kilometers (25 mi) long, and from 6 to 12 kilometers (3.7 to 7.5 mi) wide, with a total area of 365 square kilometers (141 sq mi). As of 2014, Palestinians of the Gaza Strip numbered around 1.82 million people. The large Palestinian refugee population makes it among the most densely populated parts of the world. Sunni Muslims make up the predominant part of the Palestinian population in the Gaza Strip.

(snip)

Between December 2000 and June 2001, the barrier between Gaza and Israel was reconstructed. A barrier on the Gaza Strip-Egypt border was constructed starting in 2004. The main crossing points are the northern Erez Crossing into Israel and the southern Rafah Crossing into Egypt. The eastern Karni Crossing used for cargo, closed down in 2011. Israel controls the Gaza Strip's northern borders, as well as its territorial waters and airspace. Egypt controls Gaza Strip's southern border, under an agreement between it and Israel. Neither Israel or Egypt permits free travel from Gaza as both borders are heavily militarily fortified. "Egypt maintains a strict blockade on Gaza in order to isolate Hamas from Islamist insurgents in the Sinai."

(snip)

Human Rights Watch has advised the UN Human Rights Council that it views Israel as a de facto occupying power in the Gaza Strip, even though Israel has no military or other presence, because the Oslo Accord authorizes Israel to control the airspace and the territorial sea. Other NGOs and other pro-Israel entities have been reported to contest that specific view.

The economy of the Gaza Strip is severely hampered by Egypt and Israel's almost total blockade, the high population density, limited land access, strict internal and external security controls, the effects of Israeli military operations, and restrictions on labor and trade access across the border. Per capita income (PPP) was estimated at US$3,100 in 2009, a position of 164th in the world. Seventy percent of the population is below the poverty line according to a 2009 estimate. Gaza Strip industries are generally small family businesses that produce textiles, soap, olive-wood carvings, and mother-of-pearl souvenirs; the Israelis have established some small-scale modern industries in an industrial center. Israel supplies the Gaza Strip with electricity.

With 70% of the Palestinians living below poverty, they have no choice but to build tunnels to feed their people, if nothing else.

Israel empowered Hamas in the beginning as a counterweight against Arafat's PLO and further strengthened the only force that would resist the oppression and jailing of the 1.8 million people living in Gaza, most of them refugees or children of refugees.

Netanyahu's blind hatred and abusive policies created Hamas, and the continuing blockade combined with the mass murder against a virtually helpless opponent will only breed a new generation of Palestinians with a vitriolic hatred for Israel willing to fight and die for their freedom.

I've said it before and I will say it again hate only feeds hate and blind hatred will ultimately consume the hater.

[joshcryer]

46. I agree.

Which is why I think Hamas needs to disavow their "destroy Israel" doctrine and stop shooting rockets into Israel.

Until Hamas does that then the hate will persist.

[Uncle Joe]

48. I believe they were about to, Hamas was actively working to stop rocket attacks; which had decreased

98% in 2013.

The leader of Fatah had already condemned them as being counterproductive and an obstacle to peaceful negotiations.

In May and June of this year Fatah and Hamas had reached an agreement to form a unity government and elections were going to be held.

Netanyahu was incensed by this and I'm convinced he was looking for a reason to attack Gaza because the didn't want Palestine to become a peaceful, united democracy.

He only wants Palestine united in war because this will give him an excuse to take more of their resources and land.

I pray, and I'm not religious that the people of Israel and/or their government have a major epiphany or enlightenment and change their ways before it's too late for them and the Palestinians.

[joshcryer]

51. They started shooting first.

Over the murder of the Palestinian who was killed (as a revenge killing for the 3 Israeli's who were killed). The 2013 "reduction in rockets" happened after Operation Pillar of Defense, in which case Israel did airstrikes on over 1,500 targets killing 158 Palestinians (mostly civilian).

Hamas erected a damn monument for their rockets:



The very idea that they were actively going after people shooting rockets is preposterous. They need the blockaid in place. They get $2,500 "tax" every year from every one who operates a tunnel.

[Uncle Joe]

55. "IDF source: Hamas working to stop Gaza rockets"

http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/IDF-source-Hamas-working-to-stop-rockets-from-Gaza-311977

There is “some degree of dialogue” between Israel and parties in Gaza to prevent rocket fire into southern Israel, Brig.-Gen. Micky Edelstein, commander of the army’s Gaza Division, said on Friday.

Speaking at an IDF event in Sderot, Edelstein said that Hamas was working to thwart rocket attacks from the Strip.
Related:

IAF strikes Gaza targets in response to rocket
IAF kills Gaza terrorist linked to Eilat rocket

“Today Hamas and other actors in Gaza are acting to stop the rocket fire. They don’t always succeed, and where they fail, the IDF acts,” the general said.

Earlier last week, the London-based Asharq Al-Awsat newspaper reported that Hamas had replaced policemen in the Gaza Strip border areas with fighters from its armed wing, Izzadin Kassam, in an effort to stop the rocket fire.

(snip)

A Salafi official told the newspaper that his group refused to comply with the cease-fire agreement and would continue firing rockets at Israel. The Hamas government arrested Salafi jihadists who claimed responsibility for rocket fire at Israel, the paper reported.]

In 2013 they were working together to stop rocket attacks and it was reduced 98%.

As for the monument, it was a product of the misery they were going through.

[joshcryer]

57. I don't buy it.

It was reduced in 2013 because of Israel's 1,500 airstrikes. Not because Hamas was going around arresting people for shooting rockets or managing tunnel smuggling. Israel destroyed the supplies.

If so it will be a welcome change, but I expect that after Israel's latest incursion it's just going to embolden them to fire more rockets.

[Uncle Joe]

59. Well apparently Brig.-Gen. Micky Edelstein, commander of the army’s Gaza Division did.

Sadly, I agree with your second sentence.

[malaise]

70. Good post Uncle Joe

[Uncle Joe]

71. Thanks, malaise.

[Behind the Aegis]

45. The Holocaust comments are false, offensive and disrespectful.

Israel, as bad as its actions have been, doesn't even remotely come close to that of the Nazis. If anything, those comparisons minimize the Holocaust, which, quite frankly, is the goal of many "critics" of Israel. To me, it is no different than when right-wingers compare Obama to a "Plantation Overseer." There is a reason some people chose those comparisons. Have you ever seen the swastika imposed on any other flag than Israel (a few have done it with the US) by large groups of people? It also explains why so many feel it is acceptable or simply "blowback" to attack Jews in other countries because of the actions of Israel.

[Uncle Joe]

47. I never said Netanyahu's government has committed a Holocaust but any nation is capable of doing so,

to deny that is to deny reality and ignore the central message of the Holocaust Victims; "never again."

There are at least two ways to minimize the Holocaust one is to claim it after every atrocity, (something I haven't done) and the other is to make it taboo, never to be used as a yardstick or warning sign of hatred run rampant.

As I mentioned "a lot of people" are ignorant and Israel is the only Jewish Nation and those ignorant people will categorize Jews and Israel as being one and the same.

There are quotes from Jewish activists some of them Holocaust Survivors that believe and rightfully so that Israel's abusive policies will increase anti-semitism.

The same held true when Cheney/Bush were in charge waging wars based on lies while promoting torture increased anti-Americanism.

For better or worse our nations are our brand and this translates to religion as well, Christians had to flee Iraq in record numbers after and during the war with that nation.

[Behind the Aegis]

49. No, you didn't, but implied it was coming.

As I mentioned "a lot of people" are ignorant and Israel is the only Jewish Nation and those ignorant people will categorize Jews and Israel as being one and the same.

Yes, and some engage in Holocaust comparisons, which is why...

There are quotes from Jewish activists some of them Holocaust Survivors that believe and rightfully so that Israel's abusive policies will increase anti-semitism.

...and it is yet ANOTHER excuse to blame Jews for anti-Semitism.

There are at least two ways to minimize the Holocaust one is to claim it after every atrocity, (something I haven't done) and the other is to make it taboo, never to be used as a yardstick or warning sign of hatred run rampant.

Another way, it to use it when discussing Israel and no other place.

[Uncle Joe]

50. I implied it's possible and it is, the Germans and even Nazis don't have a monopoly on evil or

blind hatred and what's taking place in Israel now and has been for at least the past six years, with this relentless blockade against a densely packed impoverished people in Gaza.

Evil and blind hatred are a universal human condition.

It's an open air prison, a mass enforced Ghetto.

Are you denying that ignorant people won't categorize Jews and Israel as being one and the same?

Are you saying there is no such thing as anti-Semitism and/or it can't be stoked or intensified by war or mass murder?

[Behind the Aegis]

52. Strawmen aside (the Germans and even Nazis don't have a monopoly on evil )...

...my issue is the misuse of the Holocaust.

It's an open air prison, a mass enforced Ghetto.

Nothing but sound-byte propaganda. Again, drawing conclusions that aren't comparable.

Are you denying that ignorant people won't categorize Jews and Israel as being one and the same?

Why would you even ask me that?! It is that for which I have a problem, including the Holocaust/Nazi comparisons.

Are you saying there is no such thing as anti-Semitism and/or it can't be stoked or intensified by war or mass murder?

That doesn't even make sense! Anti-Semitism is very real and is being justified and that is a problem. Here are some examples:

This is what all good Jews need to stand up and say. Kudos

"Good Jews?" Really?! You have a problem with that statement?

Oh, those adorable sweet "Chosen people of god." Would god really choose savages? I doubt it.

Think that is about Israelis?

It is actually very simple...we are Israel's "bitch"...That is their motivation for supporting the Jews killing innocent civilians in Gaza. Nothing complex about it.

Really? Nothing "complex" about it?!

Like Billy McKinney said...It's the damn Jews!..sorry, but it's the truth.

At least that comment was hidden, but at least one person didn't think it "hide-worthy."

Israel was given to the Jews as an apology after the Holocaust.

GIVEN to the Jews?! Oh, are we supposed to be thankful?!

Indeed... nothing to see there.

That was in response to a list of anti-Semitic attacks in Europe.

Is disgusting that a peoples that went through what the Jews went through under Hitler, would turn around and start the same process against another peoples, especially since the Jews have been feeding off the collective guilt of the world for 60-70 years for what they went through under Hitler.

Really? "Feeding off the collective guilt of the Holocaust?"

That's just a SAMPLE of a few posts in the past DAY! Wanna imply again I, as a Jew, don't know what anti-Semitism is?

So yes, there is anti-Semitism, but to imply it is the fault of the Jews (or Israel) is anti-Semitic as well!

[Uncle Joe]

58. Do you believe the man in the pic is feeding off the collective guilt of the Holocaust?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025310460

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/30/opinion/roger-cohen-zionism-and-israels-war-with-hamas-in-gaza.html?ref=opinion&_r=1

<snip>

I am a Zionist because the story of my forebears convinces me that Jews needed the homeland voted into existence by United Nations Resolution 181 of 1947, calling for the establishment of two states — one Jewish, one Arab — in Mandate Palestine. I am a Zionist who believes in the words of Israel’s founding charter of 1948 declaring that the nascent state would be based “on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel.”

Continue reading the main story Continue reading the main story

What I cannot accept, however, is the perversion of Zionism that has seen the inexorable growth of a Messianic Israeli nationalism claiming all the land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River; that has, for almost a half-century now, produced the systematic oppression of another people in the West Bank; that has led to the steady expansion of Israeli settlements on the very West Bank land of any Palestinian state; that isolates moderate Palestinians like Salam Fayyad in the name of divide-and-rule; that pursues policies that will make it impossible to remain a Jewish and democratic state; that seeks tactical advantage rather than the strategic breakthrough of a two-state peace; that blockades Gaza with 1.8 million people locked in its prison and is then surprised by the periodic eruptions of the inmates; and that responds disproportionately to attack in a way that kills hundreds of children.

This, as a Zionist, I cannot accept. Jews, above all people, know what oppression is. Children over millennia were the transmission belt of Jewish survival, the object of what the Israeli novelist Amos Oz and his daughter Fania Oz-Salzberger have called “the intergenerational quizzing that ensures the passing of the torch.” No argument, no Palestinian outrage or subterfuge, can gloss over what Jewish failure the killing of children in such numbers represents.

The Israeli case for the bombardment of Gaza could be foolproof. If Benjamin Netanyahu had made a good-faith effort to find common cause with Palestinian moderates for peace and been rebuffed, it would be. He has not. Hamas is vile. I would happily see it destroyed. But Hamas is also the product of a situation that Israel has reinforced rather than sought to resolve.

This corrosive Israeli exercise in the control of another people, breeding the contempt of the powerful for the oppressed, is a betrayal of the Zionism in which I still believe.

[Behind the Aegis]

60. Yes. Because it is what is expected of "good Jews" when Israel does anything.

I notice you didn't even remotely touch on any of the questions I asked you, nor comment on any of the comments I provided.

[Uncle Joe]

63. I De-Facto acknowledged anti-semitism existed in my first post that you responded to.

I also don't believe Israel represents all Jews but their actions can stoke or incite anti-semitism because they are the only Jewish Nation and too many ignorant people categorize that as being the same.

If anti-semitism didn't exist it couldn't be "stoked or incited," intensified, I also qualified that with "ignorant people."

I also stated that hatred feeds hatred, it knows no bounds and some of the objectionable posts you listed are evidence to that to effect.

The one regarding the "U.S being Israel's bitch" is a direct reflection of U.S. unwavering support for Israel regardless of their government's actions.

The Congress came out in unanimous support for Israel's right to defend itself, which is a pretty redundant statement as any nation has a right to defend itself, the same should be said for oppressed peoples and the Palestinians would certainly qualify.

The Congress didn't come out in unanimous support for taking an oppressive blockade off the impoverished, Palestinians living in the open air prison of Gaza.

The Congress hasn't come out in unanimous support to halt the mass murder of innocent Palestinians living in Gaza, although President Obama did just condemn one UN school building being blown up killing women and children.

To my knowledge the Congress hasn't come out in unanimous support for a free and independent Palestine.

Anytime a UN resolution, (this would be the same UN that promoted the creation of Israel and a Palestine Mandate) has come out condemning Israel for an atrocity perhaps sometimes deserved and sometimes not, the U.S. has virtually always been alone in vetoing it.

Re: "good jews" don't you believe it would be and was expected of good Americans to criticize our government not when they "do anything" as you stated but when they start wars based on lies and promote torture?

The same truth holds for religion "good Christians" even if they're not citizens of a particular nation should come forward and criticize atrocities, silence from other nations and religions was one dynamic that allowed the Holocaust to proceed.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

Edmund Burke

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/e/edmundburk377528.html#cEk1yQw7EZfk1P9S.99

I would add the addendum of 'The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men and women to do and/or say nothing.'

[Behind the Aegis]

65. Some points

If anti-semitism didn't exist it couldn't be "stoked or incited," intensified, I also qualified that with "ignorant people."

Then one shouldn't blame the victims, as has been shown.

The one regarding the "U.S being Israel's bitch" is a direct reflection of U.S. unwavering support for Israel regardless of their government's actions.

The Congress came out in unanimous support for Israel's right to defend itself, which is a pretty redundant statement as any nation has a right to defend itself, the same should be said for oppressed peoples and the Palestinians would certainly qualify.

And that comment justifies a sexist and anti-Semitic response? Or is that simply another "ignorant people: remark?

Re: "good jews" don't you believe it would be and was expected of good Americans to criticize our government not when they "do anything" as you stated but when they start wars based on lies and promote torture?

You really don't see what you did, do you? That is part of the problem. "Good Israelis" is one thing, "good Jews" is another. Do you...CAN you, see the difference?

I would add the addendum of 'The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men and women to do and/or say nothing.'

That is painfully obvious when it comes to anti-Semitism. Lip service.

Anytime a UN resolution, (this would be the same UN that promoted the creation of Israel and a Palestine Mandate) has come out condemning Israel for an atrocity perhaps sometimes deserved and sometimes not, the U.S. has virtually always been alone in vetoing it.

Uh, no. If that were the case, then there would be NO resolutions against Israel...and yet (you might want to actually want to review the number of resolutions against Israel and the number vetoed (which only can happen in the Security Council, so bad form). Another useful BS trope.

Continue to use your Holocaust references, it is expected, but it doesn't mean it is right.

[Uncle Joe]

68. Some points for you, but who is the victim?

Yes the post below is sexist and that's wrong, but you never acknowledged the legitimate points for that angry post, so I will recap.

I will also rephrase the UN post to a security council post.

"The one regarding the "U.S being Israel's bitch" is a direct reflection of U.S. unwavering support for Israel regardless of their government's actions."

The Congress came out in unanimous support for Israel's right to defend itself, which is a pretty redundant statement as any nation has a right to defend itself, the same should be said for oppressed peoples and the Palestinians would certainly qualify.

The Congress didn't come out in unanimous support for taking an oppressive blockade off the impoverished, Palestinians living in the open air prison of Gaza.

The Congress hasn't come out in unanimous support to halt the mass murder of innocent Palestinians living in Gaza, although President Obama did just condemn one UN school building being blown up killing women and children.

To my knowledge the Congress hasn't come out in unanimous support for a free and independent Palestine.

Can you address that contradiction?

Anytime a contention is before the Security Council condemning Israel for an atrocity perhaps sometimes deserved and sometimes not, the U.S. has virtually always been alone in vetoing it.

I also expanded "good" on to religion, specifically Christianity which you omitted in your rebuttal.

Re: "good jews" don't you believe it would be and was expected of good Americans to criticize our government not when they "do anything" as you stated but when they start wars based on lies and promote torture?

The same truth holds for religion "good Christians" even if they're not citizens of a particular nation should come forward and criticize atrocities, silence from other nations and religions was one dynamic that allowed the Holocaust to proceed.

Are you suggesting that if good Christians ie: the Pope etc. had spoke out against what was happening to the Jews in the 1930s this wouldn't have helped the situation?

You may believe the below quote is trope but it's true and I believe the man you cynically labeled as just being a "good jew" knows that.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.



Edmund Burke

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/e/edmundburk377528.html#cEk1yQw7EZfk1P9S.99



I would add the addendum of 'The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men and women to do and/or say nothing.'

[JustAnotherGen]

53. +1000

[Behind the Aegis]

56. Oh you!

I just hope you didn't put a big old target on your back!

[JustAnotherGen]

73. I'm fine with that

I'm perfectly fine with that.

At the end of the day - I'm a pacifist. I do not agree with any child being put in danger over adult stupidity.

There can be a resolution without any more human beings getting hurt. Ramping up anti semitic language does not help anything and certainly won't lead to an truce.

[jwirr]

27. Many of us live in a country that makes us feel that way everyday. I am not a Jew but your

statements sound like the way I feel when once again we (USA) engage in some action that I do not want to be a part of ever. In my heart I remember what a great country this country once was and could be again. But I am not blind to what we do that is wrong and it breaks my heart.

You have every right to feel that way about Israel and if I or anyone else judges you because you are a Jew then we are being a bigot lumping every single Jewish person in with the present leaders of Israel. I suspect that is the way much of the world looks at us when we are wrong - lumping all Americans into one. Thank you for speaking out.

[ann---]

31. The

Jews in my immediate family feel horror at this slaughter, too. But, they are not squeamish about calling what Israel is doing by its rightful name. Jews weren't the only victims in the Holocaust, either. Remember that. Deliberate killing of innocents is what Nazis did - and what Israel is knowingly doing.

Jews are not the only victims in this world who have suffered.

[madokie]

43. I get it

My qualifications is two fold, one I was a Soldier in an unjust war myself but the other is because of the fact of being raised so poor in a land of so much. I simply get it, what you're saying.
Oh yes I agree with you 100% too.

[leftynyc]

62. Excellent post, Bonobo

I'm being put in the position of having to defend Israel because of all those here who throw around terms like genocide and holocaust. I'm not going to join in with those who hold Israel to a standard not held for any other country, I'm not going to join in with those who deny anti semitism is behind many of the demonstrations in Europe (not anti-Zionism) while the protesters scream "kill the Jews". It's these posters own fault for their over the top language. I hate bibi and always have but I refuse to throw my hat in with those who minimize the Jewish history - especially the recent history of having rockets (and I forgot to mention those deluded people who call those firecrackers - maybe they should volunteer to stand underneath them) shot into Israel every single day. You understand why, they don't.

[Warren DeMontague]

67. Good post. I know what you mean. And it's heartbreaking for all people who want peace.

Whatever the larger circumstances, Israel's actions and response are out of proportion at this point and making things worse. Need to stop. They need to figure out a different approach to this.

It's a shame. It really looked, for a while in the 90s, like there was a real chance at some long-term resolution.

One can go back and forth with blame as to what happened to that process, but I believe a lot of the optimism among peace-seekers on both sides was replaced with cynicism and despair.

[malaise]

69. I understand your feelings but do you know about that other

holocaust called the Atlantic Slave Trade. No one allows us conflicted feelings.
Thanks for your honest and decent post.

[Bonobo]

72. I know a lot about it.

Do you know that the US represented only 5% of it and why?

[BlueCheese]

74. There's a thread out there that directly compares Israel with Nazi Germany.

Complete with phrases like "final solution" and the like. A jury let it stand and it had over 50 recs when I saw it.

Why only Israel draws comparisons with the Nazis when other actors are responsible for far more death and destruction in the area (Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya) is really mystifying. Nazi comparisons are so outlandish in ordinary discussion that you hardly ever hear them, but when Israel is involved they come out like Easter eggs. Why is that?

[Bonobo]

75. Great question.

If Israel is Nazi Germany, than what must America be -they've killed 100 or 1,000 times more than Israel?

You're 100% right that something is really weird -some strange psychology going on behind the calling Israel Nazis.

[TheKentuckian]

78. Because there is a seething antisemitism hiding just below the surface for many, many folks

and it has been passed on and persistent for thousands of years that folks especially European and of European decent like to pretend is a thing of the past but comes bubbling up to the surface quick, fast, and in a hurry at any excuse which is why some wonder where this passion is when at any given time folks are being slaughtered by the tens of thousands, often without a peep but this wonderment is ever made out as excuse making and other tired clichés when it is a perfectly legitimate question but one for which there are few answers that don't make the mask slip, in my opinion.

[steve2470]

76. Nazi comparions are uncool and not accurate

I've studied the Nazis on and off for years. They were in a league all their own. Rwanda could be compared and Pol Pot, I think ? Otherwise, it's a very bad comparison. Good OP.

[H2O Man]

77. Recommended.

There is a lot of stuff on DU:GD regarding the violence in Gaza that I don't bother to read lately ....because of other nonsense on that topic that some folks here have posted during the past few weeks. A lot of it is just ugly, and I find it offensive (not that I would "alert" on it, but I wish people were better than the crap getting posted here).

Anyhow, I'm glad that I took the time to read your OP.

[randome]

79. Dead is dead. 'Quibbling' about whether or not it qualifies as another Holocaust is ridiculous.

And Israel's objective seems to be rid of Palestinians in their entirety so it's a moot point.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]

[840high]

80. see this

Sheikh Hassan Yousef
In an interview on Fox News Channel Wednesday, Mosab Hassan Yousef, son of Hamas founder Sheikh Hassan Yousef, praised Israel for fighting against Hamas, saying it was the only way to prevent future wars and save the lives of civilians in both Israel and Gaza.
Son of Hamas Founder: Israel Needs to Finish Off Hamas
www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183551
Arutz Sheva

[Boom Sound 416]

82. I guess it would be less of a massacre

If Israel let terrorist smuggle better weapons in through ports and borders.

Seems fair.

[Calista241]

83. I find it interesting nobody is all worked up about the much more deadly

Conflict in Syria. Why does the Israel / Palestinian conflict generate so much more condemnation and vitriol than other conflicts?

[Boom Sound 416]

84. It's easier to argue where and when everyone agrees the other is wrong

And is totally safe if in the process.

Dealing with Syria means dealing with Russia and that's not going so well these days.

[jimlup]

85. I agree with all but one of your points.

It is a slow motion genocide. No, not like the one perpetrated against the Jews by Germany. One that has taken decades to come to this point. But the motives of the Israeli leadership are more than clear.

From Wikipedia:
Genocide - Genocide is the systematic destruction of all or part of a racial, ethnic, religious or national group via the (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; or (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. Genocide entails also the Conspiracy to commit genocide; Direct and public incitement to commit genocide; Attempt to commit genocide; and Complicity in genocide. .[1] What constitutes enough of a "part" to qualify as genocide has been subject to much debate by legal scholars.