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Sat Aug 23, 2014, 12:25 AM

Why shoot to kill? or why shoot until good and dead?

I just don't get the part of the police continuing to shoot when the victim has been grounded. Indefensible IMO.

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Reply Why shoot to kill? or why shoot until good and dead? (Original post)
ALBliberal Aug 2014 OP
samsingh Aug 2014 #1
aikoaiko Aug 2014 #2
Demsrule86 Aug 2014 #20
aikoaiko Aug 2014 #23
pnwmom Aug 2014 #3
NickB79 Aug 2014 #15
pnwmom Aug 2014 #16
NickB79 Aug 2014 #17
pnwmom Aug 2014 #18
jambo101 Aug 2014 #4
Jappleseed Aug 2014 #5
Name removed Aug 2014 #19
Lee-Lee Aug 2014 #6
Punkingal Aug 2014 #8
Lurks Often Aug 2014 #9
treestar Aug 2014 #10
MillennialDem Aug 2014 #11
logosoco Aug 2014 #22
MillennialDem Aug 2014 #24
Demsrule86 Aug 2014 #21
Downwinder Aug 2014 #7
TorchTheWitch Aug 2014 #12
Populist_Prole Aug 2014 #13
Iggo Aug 2014 #14

Response to ALBliberal (Original post)

Sat Aug 23, 2014, 01:08 AM

1. Brown was shot 6 times

it sounds like a hate crime to me

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Response to ALBliberal (Original post)

Sat Aug 23, 2014, 01:12 AM

2. I think they shoot until the threat has stopped


In the Powell shooting he had some momentum moving toward the police so when he was shot and fell off the ledge he was still moving toward one of the officers.

They stopped shooting when he stopped advancing.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #2)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 09:52 AM

20. Baloney

What the cops do today is murder period...no justification.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #20)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 10:35 AM

23. Don't let your anger keep you from differentiating crimes from self-defense.


Its a bad strategy for seeking justice.

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Response to ALBliberal (Original post)

Sat Aug 23, 2014, 03:45 AM

3. I agree. Especially when that person isn't even holding a gun, like the knife wielder

in Ferguson. There was absolutely no reason to continue to pump bullets into his prone body after he collapsed. He was no threat yet they kept shooting.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #3)

Sat Aug 23, 2014, 04:38 PM

15. Police generally follow the 21-foot rule with regard to knives

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

Mythbusters covered the drill in the 2012 episode "Duel Dilemmas". At 20 feet the gun wielder was able to shoot the charging knife attacker just as he reached the shooter. At shorter distances the knife wielder was always able to stab prior to being shot.[4]


Plus, knives can often defeat Kevlar vests.

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Response to NickB79 (Reply #15)

Sat Aug 23, 2014, 04:43 PM

16. Except he wasn't charging. EVER. And when he COLLAPSED on the ground, they kept shooting.

If they were concerned about the 21 foot rule, they could have retreated from the prone victim.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #16)

Sat Aug 23, 2014, 05:10 PM

17. They let him get within 5-6 feet, which was stupid for all parties involved

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Response to NickB79 (Reply #17)

Sat Aug 23, 2014, 05:16 PM

18. And they kept ordering him to drop his gun -- which he didn't have.

If they were so close, why couldn't they see that he wasn't holding a gun?

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Response to ALBliberal (Original post)

Sat Aug 23, 2014, 04:58 AM

4. I think cops lose their minds.

And go into a kind of uncontrolled shooting frenzy. as exampled in this Toronto incident where a young troubled teen was alone on a streetcar,was a minor threat that could have been handled through negotiation but some brave cop thought he`d solve the problem the cowards way=9 shots at close range
whats even more amazing is the reaction of the dozen cops at the streetcars front door who figured after the 9 shots the kid was still a threat.This to me clearly shows legalized murder by cop.
[link:|

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Response to ALBliberal (Original post)

Sat Aug 23, 2014, 06:33 AM

5. I think it is to prove the victim of the shooting was a threat.

 

Must have been a threat or they would not have put so many bullets in them. Lethal force needs to be removed from the justice system.

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Response to Jappleseed (Reply #5)


Response to ALBliberal (Original post)

Sat Aug 23, 2014, 06:41 AM

6. Once you have crossed the threshold to use deadly force

 

You fire as quickly as you can until you are certain the threat that made deadly force needed is stopped.

Period.

Under stress against a moving target you can't be certain if you hit and a person is still moving toward you or others because it wasn't a good enough hit, or if you missed, or if you got a stopping hit and it's just momentum so, yes, even if your first round hits multiple shots will be fired. 6 shots is about 2-3 seconds.

I am working to get access to a new range where I can do more classes, I would love to invite some of you down and put you in scenarios using simunitions so you can learn just how quickly these things can develop and how the real world isn't like a movie or video game.

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Response to Lee-Lee (Reply #6)

Sat Aug 23, 2014, 10:21 AM

8. It's overkill...

Once someone is down, there is no reason to keep shooting, except anger and hatred.

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Response to Punkingal (Reply #8)

Sat Aug 23, 2014, 11:19 AM

9. You're not understanding the time frame involved

 

They fired all of the shots in 2-3 seconds, so in the time it took the officers to recognize he was down and to stop shooting was about a second, which means each of them fired 1-2 shots in the period of time it took them to recognize that he was down.

Here is a link that might give you an idea of how quick things happen:


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Response to Lee-Lee (Reply #6)

Sat Aug 23, 2014, 11:22 AM

10. After I saw that video from the UK though

At least they could have retreated for a bit and moved further away from him and tried to talk to him. In the Kijames case, they got out of the car and shot him two seconds later. He wasn't coming towards them and did have only a knife.

As to Brown, there are witnesses that he was surrendering.

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Response to treestar (Reply #10)

Sat Aug 23, 2014, 01:10 PM

11. It was clear Kijames was doing it just for suicide - but they have to shoot someone with a knife

 

1 stab wound can easily be instantly fatal.

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #11)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 10:12 AM

22. I keep hearing that, but then I see the video of the old man in pajamas in the street

with a long gun (sorry, I don't know the terminology, it's a gun at any rate). They talked to him for 40 minutes. It seems like that was WAY more dangerous than someone with a knife. He could easily have shot anyone way more than 21 feet away.

Also, now that I hear of this "rule", can I request that an officer stay 21 feet away from me to ensure they don't mistake any of my movement and shoot because they had to?

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Response to logosoco (Reply #22)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 12:33 PM

24. The 21 foot rule applies if both the knife and the gun are holstered and that's not what I said

 

I merely said a single stab wound can be fatal.

Anyway. Yeah. I avoid contact with police whenever possible and never ever make sudden moves.

But in any case at close range a knife can be very very dangerous. Most of the time when you see someone pull a knife on cops they're just trying to suicide. You rarely see someone pull the knife and charge in one motion. Here's a demonstration: She even knows it's coming and gets "killed" both times.



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Response to Lee-Lee (Reply #6)

Sun Aug 24, 2014, 09:54 AM

21. I am hoping that all cops who do this...

end up fired, hopefully jailed and their lives completely ruined.

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Response to ALBliberal (Original post)

Sat Aug 23, 2014, 06:53 AM

7. Hunters are taught not to leave a wounded prey.

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Response to ALBliberal (Original post)

Sat Aug 23, 2014, 01:50 PM

12. the reason that shoot to kill is required

is that if you shoot for any other reason there is no reason to shoot at all. In order to use a gun at all the threat must be so severe that killing is a necessity.

As for why police in shootings fire so many shots, as I understand it waiting between shots to see what happens next is too dangerous, and they're trained to continue firing until the perp is no longer moving (ie: no longer a possible threat). Being down doesn't always mean being out. Being down can mean being dead, being wounded and still a threat or not being wounded or dead and having just hit the dirt when fired at yet still a threat. If they're shooting to kill in the first place I'm not seeing what difference it makes how many bullets are used. As long as they stop when the perp is down AND out rather than empying the clip then they acted correctly from the point of the decision that shooting was necessary.

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Response to ALBliberal (Original post)

Sat Aug 23, 2014, 02:07 PM

13. Dead men tell no tales

Think about it.

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Response to ALBliberal (Original post)

Sat Aug 23, 2014, 03:43 PM

14. Because they are afraid.

Just ask 'em.

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