The Truth is needed in Ukraine

[Legalequilibrium78]

First, Vladimir Putin’s actions against Ukraine haven’t been “provoked”. They are part of a long-term plan to recreate a greater Russia by regaining control of Ukraine and other states in the “near abroad”. Russia is not going to admit that it has invaded because to do so might invite a stronger Nato response. But until Nato governments unambiguously label Russian actions “aggression” and “invasion”, they will have difficulty mustering support for the stronger actions that needs to be taken.

True, there is no “military” solution to Ukraine. The only solution is diplomatic: Putin must be persuaded to cease and desist. But, as we are learning, that persuasion requires not only diplomacy and sanctions, but also assisting Ukraine in creating the military means to defeat Russia’s new war strategy.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/31/truth-russia-ukraine-nato-war-eastern-europe

By:Gen.Wesley K. Clark (ret.) fmr.Supreme Allied Commander Europe. U.S. Southern Command/J-5 Strategy and Planning/National War College distinct graduate/Graduated 1st in his class on Command and General Staff College(Then Capt.Clark and Then Capt.David Petraeus are the first and the last to achieve this distinction)

[Fred Sanders]

1. Is the gratuitous introduction for a retired general from a by gone age a requirement?

[Legalequilibrium78]

2. You could have made a valuable contribution

To what the article talks about. Instead, you chose to gloss over the finer points and focus on Gen.Clark's sterling and still relevant C.V. It is more than appropriate, and it is not from a by gone age, no more than your opinion have more relevance than what the person of the article have in spades.

[GeorgeGist]

3. Crazy talk by US Democrats doesn't neutralize crazy talk by Putin.

Nato must act decisively to strengthen member states that feel threatened by Putin’s actions. Its forces should be permanently stationed in the Baltics, Poland and eastern Balkans. Its rapid reaction forces should be bolstered. Additionally, more demanding military exercises should be held. Nato’s nuclear deterrent must be re-emphasised. Long overdue modernisation should be undertaken. All this requires greater resources, including budget and manpower.

[Fred Sanders]

4. Now that is not crazy talk, that is standard operating talk for the war hawks and drum beaters.

[Legalequilibrium78]

8. Repeated assertions does not make

Your claims any more valid or truthful. Maybe you should quit looking at every problems in the world not based on your rigid and supposedly superior ideology. The United States of America is a damn good country and despite it's myriad of problems (which country doesn't) it is by far a better place to live and be a part of.

United States must and should take the lead, otherwise China and Russia will become an even more of a menace throughout the whole world.

[Legalequilibrium78]

6. It is not crazy talk

Last edited Sun Aug 31, 2014, 05:32 PM - Edit history (1)

It is simply the reality of the situation, to pretend otherwise that Putin is not the agressor is extremely dangerous and outright blind to what is happening in eastern Ukraine. Maybe you could afford all the pseudo-intellectual babble that most of us here (including myself) are prone to do, but not the people of Ukraine.

We as Americans and as nation of liberators; and as a leader of the free world (I believe this firmly) have a responsibility to assist Ukraine through NATO on ensuring; that their wish to be free from the Russian agression will be met with, not only wordy assistance but back by tangible provitions, that can and will make an impact against the Putin backed agressions.

[elias49]

26. Are you referring to America's 'liberation' of Iraq, for example?

We are less the leader of the free world than the leader of the world of the American dollar...which, imo, is largely the reason for our fucking around in the near east, hoping to make more of the world safe for MacDonalds. I long ago gave up on the idea that our planetary goals founded in selflessness.

[eridani]

5. The provocation was US and NATO breaking their promise not to expand NATO eastward

The current Ukraine government certainly intends to join NATO. And since all eastern European countries are now members of NATO, how is Putin supposed to re-establish military hegemony over them. Is Russia the country that has 800+ military bases all over the wolrd?

[Legalequilibrium78]

7. So the answer to the supposed

NATO expansion is through subjugation? coercion, military actions and intimidation? First of all, the eastern baltic European countries joined NATO by choice and not by force. It was not only that those countries feel that their physical security will be guaranteed but that their countries respective economies would be strengthened by being a NATO member.

Most of these eastern european countries have long memories, from the historic aggressions by Russia and through Soviet era. I know most Americans are currently risk averse nation, but doing nothing and hoping for the best has never been a useful strategy nor an effective one to have. This problem will metastasize like a virus which we all be paying dearly down the road.

[eridani]

9. We would't allow a Warsaw pact nation on our borders. Why the double standard?

Russia can't allow a NATO country right next to its big base in Crimea. The US is encircling Russia militarily, and any country under that kind of attack has a right to resist.

[Legalequilibrium78]

12. You keep harping on NATO

Agressions and or encircling them etc. First off, the nature of expansion that was done in eastern Europe by the baltic nations were and are for economic reasons. At the time that those countries joined NATO: the United States during the Clinton era was the unquestioned economic behemoth, the sole superpower in the world. So rightfully and logically since NATO is predominantly an American lead military organization, the security framework gave confidence to the nations vying for membership into NATO.

I see nothing wrong with that, and they are perfectly legitimate for any nation on earth to participate and or enter into partnerships with any country's organization, provided that each applicable country either meet or exceeds the requirements necessary to become a NATO member. Secondly, Warsaw pact nations were a European defensive organization that was led by Russia. They had no North American partners to speak of, so I am not exactly what you are inferring to.

[eridani]

17. Encircling Russia is an attack, period.

Does not matter whether participation by other countries is voluntary or not. Clinton promised NOT to expand NATO

[Legalequilibrium78]

21. I don't think we'll agree on this one

You are an enthusiastic supporter of a regime and a country who has not given a shit about your existence, other than, supporting your perverse hatred and or displeasures with the country of your birth; the United States of America. A country that has given you the concept of the power and primacy of individual liberty, freedom, and the often quoted, the pursuit of happiness.

History or European history did not start and end in the late 1990's. The desires of countries to promote and advance the welfare of it's citizens through a democratic means- via capitalism- should not be subjected to a veto, just because a country with a large arsenal of nukes does not want it's neighbouring countries to be part of NATO.

I am gonna say it again there is no country that has the most crucial leadership in the world other than, the United States of America. If that makes me an uber patriot, so be it, because I am, and am not ashamed of it.

[geek tragedy]

14. "Right to resist" by invading its neighbor? You sound like Reagan's apologists

when he terrorized most of Central America, including Nicaragua.

Al Haig, Cap Weinberger etc.

[eridani]

15. You read it here first

When the fascists in Kiev allow eastern Ukraine autonomy as proposed by Merkel in her recent visit, the Russian "invasion" will stop. The east is looking for home rule, not separatism. Kiev attacked the east. No one from the east has done anything to Kiev.

[geek tragedy]

18. Spare me the Russian state media's talking points.

Russia invaded its neighbor to increase its own power and access to resources. There was no such uprising in "the east" until Putin sent Russians in there with tanks.

It's really ironic to see apologists for a fascist, imperialist, bigoted thug like Putin try to smear the Ukrainian government as fascist. If Putin isn't fascist enough for you, check out his ally Zhironovsky.

[eridani]

22. See the post featuring extensive election results in Ukraine elswere in GD

The eastern part has never been part of the west, and the two areas have grown even further apart in recent years.

[geek tragedy]

27. So Minnesota and North Dakota have never

been part of the same country? They usually vote opposite of each other.

Yanukovych promised to join the EU rather than Moscow's Eurasian union. No major party in Ukraine promised that or promised autonomy for the east.

[eridani]

30. Minnesota is not invading ND with white supremacist troops n/t

[geek tragedy]

31. Do you realize how stupid it sound to

complain about Ukraine invading itself while cheering on Russia as it bullies and invades Ukraine?

Russia is an imperialist bully, and those who support its actions are imperialists themselves.

[eridani]

32. How else would you prevent white supremacist slaughter of easterners? n/t

[geek tragedy]

35. This entire conflict and all of

its bloodshed was instigated by Russia.

Russia created the humanitarian crisis, it can solve it by not participating.

Ukraine's government is neither fascist nor white supremacist. Unlike Russia 's .

The events you are presenting are lies authored in Moscow's propaganda organs.

[eridani]

37. It was instigated by fascists, without whom there would have been no coup.

Racist vultures flock to Ukraine

http://thechronicleherald.ca/opinion/1228983-racist-vultures-flock-to-ukraine

“I am happy to have killed,” writes Gaston Besson, a French mercenary who commanded Croat paramilitary units in the Yugoslav civil war.

In a 1993 interview with the French magazine Le Nouvel Observateur, Besson says he executed prisoners, executed the wounded and fired on UN peacekeepers. He also describes his reaction to seeing the mass graves of civilians. “I saw corpses without eyes and without ears. It was boring. ... We didn’t give a f***.”

Today, Besson is fighting in the sixth war of his bloody career. He is a recruiter and commander in the Azov Battalion, a paramilitary force of 500 men who, for now, side with the Kiev government in Ukraine’s civil war. Posts on Besson’s Facebook page encourage foreigners and Ukrainians to enlist or send funds.

Azov’s badge includes the Wolfsangel, a neo-Nazi symbol, and several of its organizers and officers have publicized a white supremacist vision of Ukraine’s future.


“My goal is a white Ukraine,” says one officer, Mikael Skillt, in an interview with the Swedish newspaper Svenska Dagbladet. “I am a nationalist and I want there to still be white Europeans in Europe.”

[tabasco]

16. "The US is encircling Russia militarily"

LMAO

[eridani]

19. You have another name for NATO bases besides military outposts? Let's hear it n/t

[EX500rider]

23. Here (again) is a map of Russia...pls point out how NATO "encircles" Russia?

[eridani]

24. Why count the Arctic ocean? Or empty Siberia?

The population centers are certainly encircled. Does have the equivalent in North or South America?

[EX500rider]

25. "Somewhere to the west of us" is not encircled.

[eridani]

29. Please demostrate the Russian equivalents of the following

[EX500rider]

33. USA not the same as NATO

[malaise]

40. They can't

Truth be told most of the rest of the world is delighted that another power is taking on the West. We are beyond tired of this one super power.

[malaise]

34. No NO NO

Only the US and the West have that right.

[Little Star]

11. BINGO!!!!!!! regarding the provocation.

[geek tragedy]

13. "How is Putin supposed to re-establish military hegemony over them?"

He isn't. NATO preventing that is its greatest contribution.

[joeybee12]

10. I'll knr..disgusting the ignorant Putin love here...

Shit that they post should be banned just like chemtrails and 9-11 truthers.

[eridani]

20. Anti-imperialism is not "pro" anyone else at all n/t

[whistler162]

28. Now, now.. they where provoked

just like the Poles provoked Germany in 1938 by attacking that radio station!<SARCASM doncha' know>

[eridani]

36. Kiev has been bombing eastern cities for quite a while now

Please show us where the easterners bombed Kiev

http://www.hellasforce.com/en/slaughterhouse-civilians-die-in-kievs-ruthless-military-attacks-video/

Bodies are piling up in Donetsk morgues after Kiev unleashed fighter jets and artillery on the country’s southeast just hours after the presidential election. New leader-elect Petro Poroshenko is pushing for the crackdown to become even “more effective.”

Ukraine’s southeast saw only a brief suspension of Kiev’s military operations on Sunday while the nation took to the polls. Just before the presidential election, Ukrainian MPs called for immediate troop withdrawal from the country’s southeast.
Following the vote, the leading candidate – billionaire chocolate tycoon Petro Poroshenko – said he sees no reason why the military should stop the operation.

“I support its continuation, but demand a change in its format – it must be shorter and it must be more effective, military units must be better equipped,” he said, despite earlier statements that he is ready for dialogue with the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Lugansk People’s Republics.

Soon after the last vote was cast, the Kiev military descended on the southeast with new energy, shelling Slavyansk and attacking the airport in Donetsk with mortars.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

38. Another great idea! Let's help put out the fire by giving one side more kerosene!

Or...perish the thought..we could just stay the hell out of another war entirely.

[Dems to Win]

39. Makes me glad Wes Clark is not president today

I didn't see much truth in that article. Instead, it was a naked, avaricious demand for More Money for the Military Industrial Complex. More Money for the Military!

The Truth I'm seeking regarding the Ukraine situation: Who paid the black-hooded snipers in Kiev that created bloody chaos and precipitated the fascist putsch? An answer to this question would clarify what is going on there.