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Fri Sep 5, 2014, 02:33 PM

 

Poking Russia with a Stick? NATO Approves Military "Spearhead" for Eastern Europe

http://www.commondreams.org/news/2014/09/05/poking-russia-stick-nato-approves-military-spearhead-eastern-europe

Despite warnings from Russia that such a move would be interpreted as a provocation, a plan to deploy thousands of additional US and European troops closer to its border will now become a reality
by
Jon Queally, staff writer

Well worth the few minutes to thoughtfully read. Makes me wonder who stands to benefit from this escalation of tensions.

43 replies, 3855 views

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Arrow 43 replies Author Time Post
Reply Poking Russia with a Stick? NATO Approves Military "Spearhead" for Eastern Europe (Original post)
JEB Sep 2014 OP
The Magistrate Sep 2014 #1
gcomeau Sep 2014 #2
JEB Sep 2014 #3
The Magistrate Sep 2014 #5
JEB Sep 2014 #8
The Magistrate Sep 2014 #11
JEB Sep 2014 #38
Duckhunter935 Sep 2014 #26
AnalystInParadise Sep 2014 #37
davidpdx Sep 2014 #39
karynnj Sep 2014 #10
Tierra_y_Libertad Sep 2014 #4
Drale Sep 2014 #6
JEB Sep 2014 #7
Tierra_y_Libertad Sep 2014 #9
karynnj Sep 2014 #13
Tierra_y_Libertad Sep 2014 #14
leftstreet Sep 2014 #15
Tierra_y_Libertad Sep 2014 #16
leftstreet Sep 2014 #12
MohRokTah Sep 2014 #18
leftstreet Sep 2014 #19
NuclearDem Sep 2014 #20
leftstreet Sep 2014 #22
NuclearDem Sep 2014 #23
The Magistrate Sep 2014 #25
Drunken Irishman Sep 2014 #28
The Magistrate Sep 2014 #29
KoKo Sep 2014 #33
The Magistrate Sep 2014 #36
EX500rider Sep 2014 #24
KittyWampus Sep 2014 #42
leftstreet Sep 2014 #43
Crunchy Frog Sep 2014 #17
geek tragedy Sep 2014 #21
BillZBubb Sep 2014 #27
The Traveler Sep 2014 #30
JEB Sep 2014 #32
KoKo Sep 2014 #34
Historic NY Sep 2014 #31
Cha Sep 2014 #35
davidpdx Sep 2014 #41
MohRokTah Sep 2014 #40

Response to JEB (Original post)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 02:39 PM

1. To Be Blunt, Sir

Russia has sent several thousands of its soldiers, with armor and artillery, across the border of Ukraine to wage war against Ukraine's armed forces.

Having done this, Russia forfeits any ground to complain that a subsequent mustering of troops by anyone else to deploy in any country Russia shares a border with is 'a provocation'. Unless, of course, one takes the word 'provocation' to mean 'response to aggression already committed'....

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #1)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 02:41 PM

2. ^ That ^ -eom

 

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #1)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 02:42 PM

3. Several thousand huh?

 

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Response to JEB (Reply #3)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 02:43 PM

5. And You Are About To Claim What, Sir --- Zero?

"It's all lies! Lies against my boys!"

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #5)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 03:01 PM

8. And you are about to bite into the neck of the world and drink her blood?

 

You sure talk high and mighty.

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Response to JEB (Reply #8)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 03:05 PM

11. Thank You For The Laugh, Sir

When you belly up like that with all four paws in the air, it really is hard to do anything but tickle your little belly....

"Most people would sooner die than think, and often do."

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #11)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 11:20 PM

38. Indeed, even CNN lets a little Ukraine truth show.

 

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Response to JEB (Reply #3)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 05:15 PM

26. did Russia blockade the Ukrainian naval vessels

 

in port and then seize them breaking international law?

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Response to JEB (Reply #3)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 10:40 PM

37. Putin is a jerk and a jackass

 

but I train with NATO forces, aside from the Brits and French, they are not what I would call high quality. As always the devil is in the details, the NATO armies are currently at the smallest force projection levels EVER, I don't believe they can sustain this deployment more than a year. Logistics, logistics, logistics. The days of the West German Army having almost as many tanks as the U.S. are long gone. Germany today is a hollow military. I want something done to stop Putin, but asking NATO to do it is laughable.

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Response to AnalystInParadise (Reply #37)

Sat Sep 6, 2014, 12:18 AM

39. Thanks for the intersting perspective on your experience with NATO

I had a feeling that was the case. People get their panties in a wad about NATO invading other countries, but the truth is it won't happen. The commitment is just not there from other countries.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #1)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 03:04 PM

10. Wonderfully said!

I seriously don't get the pro Russia contingent here. It is really hard to get how Russia could invade first Crimea and then eastern Ukraine - after saying they never would, then saying they were not there .. that they had nothing to do with the men in green, speaking Russian - and some here still believe every word RT says.

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Response to JEB (Original post)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 02:42 PM

4. And, our "vital national interests" in Ukraine are.......?

 

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #4)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 02:48 PM

6. Do you really think Putin will stop with Ukraine?

If we did nothing, he would see it as a blank check to take what ever he wanted, just like Hitler. Hitler annexed Austria and Czechoslovakia and we allowed to by Britain and the other European powers thinking that would satisfy him but men like Hitler and Putin are never satisfied with the power and control they have and always want more. Should we start a war with Russia, hell no but we should support the people fighting against him invading their country.

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Response to Drale (Reply #6)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 02:58 PM

7. I've seen enough fear mongering in this country.

 

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Response to Drale (Reply #6)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 03:04 PM

9. And, our "vital national interests" in Ukraine are.......?

 

Are they the same as they were in Vietnam? Cambodia? Laos? Angola? Cuba? Mozambique? Honduras? Iran? Greece? Nicaragua? Chile? etc, etc, etc. When we "helped" democracy in those countries?

Or, (Gasp!), we could stay out of the civil wars, border squabbles, and other assorted disturbances and borrow some our money from the MIC and do something useful.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #9)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 03:07 PM

13. If you would say the same of Russia, your comments would have more weight nt

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Response to karynnj (Reply #13)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 03:12 PM

14. I do say the same of Russia.

 

"History supplies little more than a list of people who have helped themselves to the property of others." - Voltaire

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #9)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 03:12 PM

15. ...to appear relevant

That's what it looks like to me

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #9)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 03:14 PM

16. It's a pissing contest that we just can't resist participating in.

 

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Response to Drale (Reply #6)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 03:06 PM

12. Oh please

but men like Hitler and Putin are never satisfied with the power and control they have and always want more.




Putin is a businessman. Period

He is no different than any reasonably sharp CEO

The rhetoric...it burns!

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #12)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 03:42 PM

18. Ridiculous

 

Putin is a power hungry tyrant and former KGB officer. He's certainly no "businessman".

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #18)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 03:47 PM

19. He's been in office essentially 14 years

oooh.......power hungry tyrant



He's a CEO representing the interests of wealthy corporate owners

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #19)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 04:15 PM

20. Oh please.

 

He flattened one of his own cities to the point it was named the most destroyed city on earth, jailed musicians for hurting his feefees, started a pogrom against the Russian LGBT community, and assassinated Russian expat dissidents across the world.

He's a fucking tyrant.

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #20)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 04:25 PM

22. The Duma passed laws concerning LGBT rights

I seriously doubt Putin could give two shits

Putin has 'assassinated Russian expat dissidents across the world?'

This I didn't know

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #22)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 04:39 PM

23. Yeah. Alexander Litivenko.

 

http://m.bbc.com/news/uk-19647226

The 43-year-old had been an officer with the Federal Security Service (FSB), the successor to the KGB, but he fled to Britain where he became a fierce critic of the Kremlin. In his final years he also became a British citizen.

...

At a central London hotel on 1 November 2006, he took tea with Mr Lugovoi and Dmitri Kovtun, who was also a former Russian agent.

Mr Litvinenko fell ill soon afterwards and spent the night vomiting.

...

During that same interview, Mr Litvinenko - a critic of the Putin regime - said he had been looking into the assassination of Russian journalist Anna Politkovskaya, who had received death threats before being shot at her Moscow apartment block the previous month.


And the woman whose death he was investigating:

http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27760498

Ms Politkovskaya, an investigative reporter and vocal critic of Russia's war in Chechnya, was shot in a lift in her block of flats.

...

Ms Politkovskaya's reporting for Novaya Gazeta newspaper won international renown for her dogged investigation of Russian abuses in Chechnya.

But her pieces, which were highly critical of President Vladimir Putin, then serving his second term, and the Chechen leadership, angered many in authority.


So to recap: if you sufficiently piss off Putin, you either end up shot, in prison, or getting acute polonium poisoning.

And that's just a businessman to you.

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #23)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 05:10 PM

25. People Really Do Need To Inform Themselves Better, Sir

This whole reflexive "U.S. bad! Anybody against U.S. GOOD!!!" just leaves people looking like they stepped out of doors without pants holding a bottle of beer....

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #25)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 05:19 PM

28. Don't you love that some here defend Putin more than they ever defended Obama?

Also fascinating that to so-called anti-war left turn around and defeND Russian's aggression.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #28)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 05:23 PM

29. I Do Indeed, Sir

And it is both sad and entertaining to watch people who present as 'anti-war left' cheer-leading for Russia invading a neighbor, and doing so without even the poor excuse of a pretense Russia was at in some sense the 'left' side. It is like reading Workers World from forty years ago in here, sometimes....

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #29)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 07:57 PM

33. Sir....I don't want to ask...but, what were YOU reading 40 years ago....

I don't want to ask....I don't want to assume....but, your insinuation about reading "Workers World" (I assume a Socialist or Communist Newspaper or such) I don't know because I wasn't aware of it or read it== so I take you reference for just the mention as something derogatory.

Are you aware of the McCarthy Hearings? The lingering stench of that? I think you might be of an age who would remember that time.

I'm assuming "Workers World" might have been something that would have been unacceptable at that time for Sen. McCarthy and his witch hunters seeking out the "Commie Pinko's" amongst prominent Americans.

OTOH....maybe the "Workers World" you mention was a newsletter or paper that was the forerunner for the advent of the Fast Food Industry? I apologize if I mistook your post as asparagus on the OP.

Whatever...........

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Response to KoKo (Reply #33)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 09:08 PM

36. The CPUSA Paper, Ma'am

Official organ. It was quite entertaining, if one had a grim sense of humor.

One of the difficulties of being on the left in the Cold War period was maintaining some distance from being effectively in support of Soviet, and later of Maoist, Communism. A great deal of damage was done to the left, world-wide and in the United States, by the capture of much left language, and the appropriation and betrayal of many left ideals, by totalitarians in Soviet Russia and Red China. They had supporters here on the left, both genuine adherents and people who were taken in by the manichean world-view they presented. Much of what is said here today in defense of Russia and Putin in Ukraine could be taken nearly word for word from tracts written then against NATO and arming Germany, against the maintenance of U.S. bases abroad, and particularly on the origins of the Cold War itself, which in such circles was presented as a necessary response by the Soviet Union to U.S. and English provocations and aggressions. After all, the Soviet Union loved peace, and harbored no aggressive intentions towards anyone, and it was the genuine will of the people in Poland and Hungary and Romania and Czechoslovakia and the rest to form Communist governments and ally with the Soviet Union against NATO aggression. It was tiresome and destructive then, and it has not improved with age. It is a good portion of the reasons 'why we can't have nice things' like a national health program and strong unions and a more equitable and less violent society, because people who followed that line made it possible for right reactionaries to plausibly present the left as an anti-patriot and subversive element in our society and politics.

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #12)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 04:39 PM

24. "Putin is a businessman. Period" LOL!

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #12)

Sat Sep 6, 2014, 12:33 AM

42. Putin is absolutely no "businessman". You apparently know nothing about him. Russian Oligarchs

 

will probably be rid of him if an economic cold war puts a dent in their business.

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #42)

Sat Sep 6, 2014, 11:49 AM

43. Thank you for making my point

Russian Oligarchs will probably be rid of him if an economic cold war puts a dent in their business.


That's what I just said

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Response to JEB (Original post)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 03:40 PM

17. They kind of asked for it. n/t

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Response to JEB (Original post)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 04:23 PM

21. Russia needs to be poked with a stick when it keeps on trying to

 

invade its neighbors. The bear needs to know to stay in his cage.

If Russia would stop invading its neighbors, this wouldn't be necessary.

And, I'm sure it's a coincidence that Putin's thugs kidnapped an Estonian intelligence official in Estonia mere hours after Obama's speech in Estonia.

So, yeah, NATO countries do need to be protected from a rampaging thugocracy like Russia.

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Response to JEB (Original post)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 05:18 PM

27. This isn't poking Russia with a stick.

This is showing Putin there will be consequences for unacceptable behavior. He needs to understand that.

Putting NATO troops in Ukraine right after the recent revolution there would have been poking Russia with a stick.

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Response to JEB (Original post)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 05:51 PM

30. This is a bilateral screwup

 

The entire situation originated from an attempt by the EU to draw the Ukraine into its economic sphere of power (complete with bailout loans and austerity programs), and Russia's attempt to offer a much sweeter counter deal. The government of th4e Ukraine went with the counter deal ... it would have been financially irresponsible to make another choice.

But that decision met with the intense disapproval of a large chunk of the Ukrainian people ... who took to the streets (apparently with at least some EU support) and toppled the government (which was, let's face it, both corrupt and barely competent).

Now Russia had long broadcasted that they would at some point react to encroachment in its direction by the EU and/or NATO. So I was not surprised when they began supporting a counter coup insurgency. Nor was I surprised that they jumped Crimea, given its strategic importance to them. What amazed me was the utter lack of preparedness by the EU and NATO for these moves. It was as if they believed it inconceivable. I thought it was inevitable.

Everything was going their way until an airliner got shot down. Both sides accuse the other of doing the deed. I am concerned that there has been a shortage of conclusive evidence either way ... though we have been told such evidence exists. Recently, Putin challenged the West to release the cockpit voice recordings ... one wonders why that has not been done, and why other evidential disclosures have not been made. Let us as citizens beware the fog of war ... both sides of the issue are blowing lots of smoke right now.

In any event, the loss of the airliner finally prompted the governments of Europe to actually get off their butts and join with our President in formulating sanctions and other plans of action. If the Russians did not expect a NATO reaction of this sort, then they are as incompetent and/or arrogant as the EU planners.

NATO has no choice but to position itself to repel further incursions, and prepare military options for dealing with the situation. The cease fire agreement, which resolves none of the political matters, is a responsible action by both sides. It slows down the rush towards war. Neither side really wants an engagement between main NATO and Russian forces, with its potential for rapid escalation into an exchange of battlefield tactical nukes ... and thus the risk of broader escalation.

More significantly, as observed by no less than Henry Kissinger, this presents a crisis to the "New World Order" constructed after the Cold War. I agree, and further hold it was inevitable.

The neo-cons proclaimed "an end to history" ... the supreme triumph of capitalism. Well, the supreme triumph has produced multiple conflicts, ethnic cleansing, imposition of brutal economic policies, and massive wealth inequality in the nations of the West ... it wasn't all it could have been, shall we say. And it's excesses have produced consequences. New alliances are forming to oppose that western consensus ... and along with them, the beginnings of separate financial systems.

What happens next? I have no idea. I just hope everyone keeps their cool ... in a very real sense, we are back in cold war conditions, but without the training for and experience of that kind of world.

Trav

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Response to The Traveler (Reply #30)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 06:43 PM

32. Thanks for the thoughtful and informed post.

 

I wonder who the beneficiaries are of these escalated tensions. Certainly not me or other working class people.

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Response to The Traveler (Reply #30)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 08:08 PM

34. Good Points....explains much without rancor, name calling or rush to judgement. K&R!

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Response to JEB (Original post)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 06:36 PM

31. Perhaps the stick will wake up the Russian people...

Putins operations are placing into practice the defensive agreements the NATO countries signed onto. At the moment the ONLY country making offensive moves on its neighbors, is Putin. Perhaps he should take it as, this shall not stand message.

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Response to JEB (Original post)

Fri Sep 5, 2014, 08:09 PM

35. That's Twisted .. Fucking Putin has been poking his "stick" all over the bloody place and no one

is suppose to notice because.. "Leave Putin Alone!" Russia:".. Provacation"

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Response to Cha (Reply #35)

Sat Sep 6, 2014, 12:28 AM

41. I just have to wonder what else Putin likes to poke his "stick" at

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Response to JEB (Original post)

Sat Sep 6, 2014, 12:20 AM

40. IF this is "Poking Russia with a Stick", then Russia bashed NATO upside the head with a tree. eom

 

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