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True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 04:21 AM Nov 2014

If you were writing Dante's Inferno, who are the three people in the center of the 9th circle?

Last edited Sat Nov 15, 2014, 06:03 AM - Edit history (1)

Dante put Brutus, Cassius, and Judas Iscariot in the most horrific depths of hell, gnawed forever by Satan.

While Satan is obviously a fictional character and hell an allegory for living psychological states, it's a morally enlightening exercise to think about who you regard as the three most absolute evil human beings of all time.

It would be a trivial answer to just pick the three biggest murderers and say Hitler, Stalin, and Mao. But if you look deeper at the nature of their horrors, you find that's not necessarily an intelligent answer.

Stalin and Mao killed people mainly via the chaos and paranoia they recklessly unleashed, magnifying their minutest impulse into a political imperative. They were akin to catalysts of a riot, rather than architects, and then acted desperately to stay in power against both real and imagined conspiracies to overthrow them like vast numbers of other tyrants in history. What distinguished them was not their crimes, but merely the scale of the states they ruled.

Dante reserves the 9th Circle for betrayers, and in my book the three betrayers in the lowest frozen depths who are eaten perpetually by Satan's three heads, are the betrayers of democracy - those who inherit its gifts, and throw them away as if they're nothing.

#3 Richard Nixon

Nixon grew up in the bosom of American democracy, privileged and nourished by it, and still could find nothing in his heart but contempt for everything it stood for. After a long series of some of the greatest leaders the world has ever known, he bullied and lied his way into power, and then used that power mostly to fuck everyone over and try to make himself into some kind of monarch. He had even tried to make a ridiculous special Secret Service uniform that looked like some pompous Praetorian Guard costume, but nobody else was interested. Dick Cheney in later decades was merely a degenerated clone of Herr Nixon - all the bloodthirst and hate with none of the political competence. But Nixon deserves the blame for Cheney's crimes too, since so much of what he did led directly to them, as well as the crimes of the Reagan administration between the two.

#2 Adolf Hitler

We tend to think of Adolf Hitler as the worst person who ever lived, mostly for aesthetic reasons. Mao probably killed more people, but it was the way Hitler killed them that gets to people - the rationalization along aesthetic lines, as if mass murder were a genre of art. It was as if an entire nation adopted the viewpoint of a serial killer.

But it's also the radical contrast between those crimes and the circumstances preceding them that makes us think of him as the absolute worst. Adolf Hitler rose to power democratically, arguing his way into a significant minority share of legislative authority in the Weimar German government before politicking himself into the Chancellorship. Only from that position did he declare himself dictator and embark on his career of Satanic madness.

Ruination that took a thousand years to unfold in the Roman Empire, unfolded for Germany in a generation: Monarchy, to democracy, to tyranny, to ruin. And he brought down an entire continent with him, and sowed the seeds of the Cold War that nearly ended the species. The narcissistic rat preferred to see his people reduced to ashes than to see them move beyond him. But Hitler lived in a time when there was a Bulwark of Freedom to fight him and refute his ideology. Not so the vilest human who ever lived...

#1 Julius Caesar

It's hard to understand the Roman Republic and early Empire today. They were utterly alone on Earth, standing like a mile-high column in an absolutely flat plain. There were military competitors - the Persians/Parthians for instance. And the distant Empire of China was very orderly and technologically advanced. But these were just elaborate kingdoms - more developed versions of ancient Egypt. Rome was something else. Not a rigorous democracy like Athens had been, but the most liberal and progressive large-scale society on Earth for centuries. They claimed to be "the world," and they were not wrong. Their philosophers stood upon the open plain and saw immortal truths, and the freedom to choose their path.

But for all the problems that came along afterwards - the conspiracies, the civil wars, etc. - Rome still believed in the open plain, in the freedom of people (as they defined "people" - Roman men, of course) to choose. And then some charismatic, ambitious general decided that the freedom to choose was the problem, and stabbed it in the heart as surely as he himself was a decade later. He swept in from his Gallic conquests with an army of soldiers who had known only a life of obedience rather than the freedom of Rome, and turned the entire "world" the Romans knew into a macrocosm of his camp in Gaul.

No one in all of history is as diabolical as Caesar. His own unfeigned words in De Bello Gallico are those of an unfeeling bastard who ordered the total extermination of entire peoples who resisted him, bragging about horrors even his contemporaries found somewhat shocking. The machine they had unleashed centuries earlier had come home to roost, and there was cruel justice in that, but the man who directed it against Rome herself was the singular author of two millennia of ever-diminishing freedom and ever-waning light. A man who had known all the blessings of a free republic, come home to murder it in its hour of weakness, and unleashing 1500 years of tyrants, madmen, and selfish hereditary monarchs on people reduced to universal slavery.

He caused vast numbers of slaves to be freed, only to enslave everyone else as subjects to the tyrant. He fed the poor, only to guarantee an unending future of poverty and misery. He feigned respect for institutions he destroyed, and created himself the founder of what Rome hated most: Monarchy.

Who knows what might have been possible if Caesar had been something other than he was? Nothing inherently stood in the way of industrialization and growth into modern republic. It could have happened 2,000 years before it did. Instead, an endless series of miscellaneous and boring history of feudal tyrants, military dictators, useless Fortunate Sons inheriting the slavery of millions for a hundred generations, callous religious cults rising in the darkness where the light of philosophy had died under tyranny, and chaos.

The five centuries of Rome as a charnel house of oppression belong to Caesar. The thousand years of "Rome" as a degenerate Eastern autocracy belong to Caesar. The medieval chaos in the ruins of Rome belongs to Caesar. The deplorable ignorance and fanaticism of medieval Christianity belong to Caesar, since it grew in the soil he had sown. The millennia of kings and tyrants throughout Europe who ruled in his name, or inspired by his example, right up to 1917, belong to Caesar. The Kaisers and the Czars belong to Caesar. Napoleon belongs to Caesar. The Holy Roman Emperors and the French Kings belong to Caesar.

He stood upon the Open Plain, and decided to dig a hole 2,000 years deep. Fuck you, Julius Caesar.

What do you think?

71 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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If you were writing Dante's Inferno, who are the three people in the center of the 9th circle? (Original Post) True Blue Door Nov 2014 OP
Easy. If I were writing Dante's Inferno today, I'd just include many more than 3 people in . merrily Nov 2014 #1
Hitler's malice is the greatest of all time. True Blue Door Nov 2014 #3
Not in my view. YOUR hypothetical is that this is my book. I must require you to live with it. merrily Nov 2014 #10
Jesus have you like.. BlindTiresias Nov 2014 #17
Who was greater in its time? True Blue Door Nov 2014 #19
Han Dynasty BlindTiresias Nov 2014 #30
Really? Han Dynasty *monarchy* was more humanistic and democratic than Rome? True Blue Door Nov 2014 #48
Han dynasty had an excellent quality of life for most of its duration. BlindTiresias Nov 2014 #57
Man does not live by bread alone. True Blue Door Nov 2014 #69
No we appeal to Greece and Rome because of historic lineage BlindTiresias Nov 2014 #71
Reagan, Hitler, Stalin would all be in the 10th Circle in my version IdiocracyTheNewNorm Nov 2014 #2
Reagan's crimes were mainly of deliberate negligence. True Blue Door Nov 2014 #4
His evil went far and wide and we are still dealing with the consequences today IdiocracyTheNewNorm Nov 2014 #7
Most of Reagan's henchmen were Nixon's unindicted people. True Blue Door Nov 2014 #9
and the common element for both was Cheney IdiocracyTheNewNorm Nov 2014 #15
But we are biased because we feel the direct effects of those monsters. True Blue Door Nov 2014 #20
Times were a bit different in Julius Caesar's time then in the more modern time period of today IdiocracyTheNewNorm Nov 2014 #25
Hitler created spaceflight (via Von Braun), the Volkswagen, jet aircraft, and freeways. True Blue Door Nov 2014 #29
Don’t forget really stylish uniforms too, those Nazis were pretty sharp dressers! IdiocracyTheNewNorm Nov 2014 #35
Yup. No one will besmirch Hitler's fashion sense. True Blue Door Nov 2014 #47
It is more interesting then the current black or blue suit with white shirt IdiocracyTheNewNorm Nov 2014 #50
Cheney, AKA "His Divine Shadow." True Blue Door Nov 2014 #52
Both Obama and Hillary put Reagan on their respective lists of 10 best US POTUS ever merrily Nov 2014 #5
I guess a really shitty one with principals. IdiocracyTheNewNorm Nov 2014 #8
So sorry, my compatriot. Principles are just so over. merrily Nov 2014 #14
Obama respects Reagan's "message-eering." True Blue Door Nov 2014 #12
Satan is at the center of the 9th circle, not the 10th circle Fortinbras Armstrong Nov 2014 #6
Yes, it was in deep trouble. And what did Caesar do with that trouble? True Blue Door Nov 2014 #13
Ever heard of a guy called Sulla? BlindTiresias Nov 2014 #16
The guy who voluntarily retired from dictatorship? True Blue Door Nov 2014 #21
Yeah BlindTiresias Nov 2014 #28
He killed lots of people without pretense. True Blue Door Nov 2014 #32
Ok BlindTiresias Nov 2014 #33
If it hadn't been Caesar Fortinbras Armstrong Nov 2014 #22
Would you accept that as a criminal defense of murder? True Blue Door Nov 2014 #24
Caesar was just the last one in a line of people Fortinbras Armstrong Nov 2014 #36
Yeah, your appraisal of Gaius Julius is dead wrong BlindTiresias Nov 2014 #11
My assessment of Caesar is simply based on his own words True Blue Door Nov 2014 #18
Jesus christ, liberty? BlindTiresias Nov 2014 #27
The technological concepts I refer to were invented in the Hellenistic era. True Blue Door Nov 2014 #37
Nooo BlindTiresias Nov 2014 #41
Tell me: What did Caesar do to capitalize on the extant advances of his time? True Blue Door Nov 2014 #45
The roman republic was not a democracy BlindTiresias Nov 2014 #59
The Roman Republic had been dying for years when Caesar came on the political scene. Fortinbras Armstrong Nov 2014 #34
I don't think so. True Blue Door Nov 2014 #49
The Senate were the ones preying on the weakened state BlindTiresias Nov 2014 #58
Easy and In order of the ammount of people killed. imthevicar Nov 2014 #23
If numbers of people killed are the standard, where's Genghis Khan? True Blue Door Nov 2014 #38
Well, or Tamerlane, with the pyramids of skulls, but the list is long. bemildred Nov 2014 #54
I was thinking like that treestar Nov 2014 #66
Dante put traitors in the very center of hell. woo me with science Nov 2014 #26
Caesar was the king of such vipers. True Blue Door Nov 2014 #39
Dick Cheney Chemisse Nov 2014 #31
No one here will deny that Cheney and Reagan were evil. True Blue Door Nov 2014 #42
GMTA! I was just going to ask if we'd forgotten Dick Cheney... Rhiannon12866 Nov 2014 #44
But would he be in the top 3? True Blue Door Nov 2014 #46
Good point. But I do have the perspective of my particular lifetime Rhiannon12866 Nov 2014 #63
Also your Roman industrial rev notion is an absurdity BlindTiresias Nov 2014 #40
Actually, steam power existed in the Hellenistic era. True Blue Door Nov 2014 #43
jesus christ stop watching 300 BlindTiresias Nov 2014 #61
Thanks.... Island Deac Nov 2014 #51
Mao, Stalin, and Hitler if you want to go by sheer indefatigable killing. bemildred Nov 2014 #53
Something people may find interesting about Brutus rpannier Nov 2014 #55
I think you should spare Nixon. Vinca Nov 2014 #56
"History supplies little more than a list of people who have helped themselves to the property Tierra_y_Libertad Nov 2014 #60
Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz Old Nick Nov 2014 #62
That you need to read more Roman history, possibly something from a different perspective. Rowdyboy Nov 2014 #64
Meh. I don't have any faith in the naratives of history. hunter Nov 2014 #65
Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot. stevenleser Nov 2014 #67
Lee Atwater, Karl Rove, Cheney no_hypocrisy Nov 2014 #68
Antiquties - Nero, Caligula, Caesar Rex Nov 2014 #70

merrily

(45,251 posts)
1. Easy. If I were writing Dante's Inferno today, I'd just include many more than 3 people in .
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 05:45 AM
Nov 2014

every circle. The population's exploded since the early 1300s!

But, even if there were only one person in my Ninth Circle, Hitler would have to make it there. He's unimaginable.

True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)
3. Hitler's malice is the greatest of all time.
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 06:05 AM
Nov 2014

But the degree of his treachery against mankind can't hold a candle to Caesar.

BlindTiresias

(1,563 posts)
17. Jesus have you like..
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 06:30 AM
Nov 2014

Opened a single book about Rome that wasn't written by Edward Gibbon? Rome was not that great, sorry, and if your measure of greatness is "human freedom" and "technological progress" then you should hate Rome with a fiery passion.

BlindTiresias

(1,563 posts)
30. Han Dynasty
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 06:50 AM
Nov 2014

Mauryan Empire was extremely advanced as was the Sunga Empire. Rome wasn't the end all be all of the world in its time and you are kind of demonstrating a severe lack of historical knowledge in this thread.

BlindTiresias

(1,563 posts)
57. Han dynasty had an excellent quality of life for most of its duration.
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 04:14 PM
Nov 2014

The Indian kingdoms were considered to be so wealthy and advanced that the Chinese accounts were envious, a rare occurrence in Chinese histories of foreigners. Democratic? Neither was Rome.

As far as advanced societies in the historical period we were talking about Rome was not the only game in town, and far from providing the best its inhabitants on average.

True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)
69. Man does not live by bread alone.
Mon Nov 17, 2014, 01:57 AM
Nov 2014

That's why we today usually appeal more to Greece and Rome than to Egypt, which was quite good at feeding its people.

BlindTiresias

(1,563 posts)
71. No we appeal to Greece and Rome because of historic lineage
Mon Nov 17, 2014, 02:15 AM
Nov 2014

Rome took on Hellenistic culture, and the medieval Europeans took on some elements of Roman culture as the majority of them were occupied for several centuries by them. It has nothing to do with accomplishment (defined by what? What is "Greatness"?), but familiarity. We don't appeal to the Mauryan Empire or Han dynasty because the west has no cultural legacy with them, but the Indians and Chinese do often invoke those empires in their language and cultural focus.

As for the Egyptians, we actually do invoke that indirectly as the Egyptians were a significant influence on the archaic Hellenic civilization and the Hellenes openly acknowledged this and stated a great deal of admiration for the Egyptian civilization, which was ancient even in their time.

 
7. His evil went far and wide and we are still dealing with the consequences today
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 06:13 AM
Nov 2014

The current mess in the Middle East is due to him as is the current issue of all the Central and South American people trying to get to America to keep from being killed my what was his death squads. BTW we are still paying on his fucking debt too.

Fuck him and double fuck those fuckers who voted for him.

True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)
9. Most of Reagan's henchmen were Nixon's unindicted people.
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 06:15 AM
Nov 2014

And he used Nixon's terrorist model in Latin America. Remember what Nixon did in Chile.

And Cheney was raised in the Nixon fold.

 
15. and the common element for both was Cheney
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 06:20 AM
Nov 2014

I do agree Nixon was an evil SOB too having lived through both of those pricks I would have to give it to Reagan for being the more evil and causing more long term harm.

Perhaps a bigger circle with Nixon, Reagan, Chaney, Hitler and Stalin in it.





True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)
20. But we are biased because we feel the direct effects of those monsters.
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 06:35 AM
Nov 2014

If we rise above our own times, we have to admit Caesar.

 
25. Times were a bit different in Julius Caesar's time then in the more modern time period of today
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 06:44 AM
Nov 2014

Comparing Caesar to Hitler It is almost an apples to oranges comparison.

At least with Caesar we got roads and plumbing which are 2 things I really like.



True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)
29. Hitler created spaceflight (via Von Braun), the Volkswagen, jet aircraft, and freeways.
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 06:49 AM
Nov 2014

He's still a hemmorhoid on Satan's asshole.

 
35. Don’t forget really stylish uniforms too, those Nazis were pretty sharp dressers!
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 06:56 AM
Nov 2014

If one is going to commit genocide at least look good doing it!

True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)
47. Yup. No one will besmirch Hitler's fashion sense.
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 07:36 AM
Nov 2014

Speaking of which, here's Nixon's personal design for a Secret Service uniform:

[img][/img]

Fucker basically wanted lictors.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
5. Both Obama and Hillary put Reagan on their respective lists of 10 best US POTUS ever
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 06:10 AM
Nov 2014

in all of US history---and you would put him in the 9th circle? What kind of Democrat are you?

True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)
12. Obama respects Reagan's "message-eering."
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 06:16 AM
Nov 2014

And Hillary, well, she just instinctively sides up to any asshole who looks like they have power.

Fortinbras Armstrong

(4,473 posts)
6. Satan is at the center of the 9th circle, not the 10th circle
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 06:12 AM
Nov 2014

And the Roman Republic was in deep political trouble from before Julius Caesar's rule. Sulla's dictatorship occurred when Caesar was 21. Cinna died while Caesar was in his 20s. Publius Clodius Pulcher was murdered before the rise of the First Triumvirate.

True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)
13. Yes, it was in deep trouble. And what did Caesar do with that trouble?
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 06:17 AM
Nov 2014

Build a fucking monarchy out of Rome.

It's impossible to translate that level of sacrilege into modern America. We hold nothing as dear as the Romans held their hatred of monarchy.

True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)
32. He killed lots of people without pretense.
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 06:52 AM
Nov 2014

And every last person he killed in open proscriptions combined would be a drop in the bucket compared to Caesar's wars and assassinations. Sulla was to Caesar as Kaiser Wilhelm II was to Hitler.

The man was evil, but he was a small tyrant. Caesar's daemon resounds across time.

BlindTiresias

(1,563 posts)
33. Ok
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 06:54 AM
Nov 2014

Now look at the social and economic origins of the wars and compare the assassinations to the long list that the Senate wracked up, even in Julius Caesar's time. The problems of Rome go way deeper than one guy, as satisfying as it may be to point the finger at a long dead guy.

Fortinbras Armstrong

(4,473 posts)
22. If it hadn't been Caesar
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 06:37 AM
Nov 2014

It would have been someone else. Pompey is an obvious candidate, Mark Anthony is another.

True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)
24. Would you accept that as a criminal defense of murder?
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 06:43 AM
Nov 2014

If not, it's a little odd to propose it as a justification for ending the Roman Republic.

Pompey or Antony might have been dictators for a while.

Caesar straight-up plunged a dagger into the heart of Rome.

Fortinbras Armstrong

(4,473 posts)
36. Caesar was just the last one in a line of people
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 06:59 AM
Nov 2014

Actually, Augustus is the man who really plunged the dagger into the heart of the Republic.

Blaming Caesar alone is simplistic to the point of absurdity.

BlindTiresias

(1,563 posts)
11. Yeah, your appraisal of Gaius Julius is dead wrong
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 06:15 AM
Nov 2014

The senate were no angels and they had a long standing habit of murdering reformers so they could maintain their wealth and status, they also vigorously opposed quite necessary measures like the Marian reforms and refused to contribute to the payment of he new legions, forcing the generals to pay for it out of their own funds. If you feel so inclined to lay the civil wars on any singular cause, that would be a good contender. By Caesar's time the republic was already in crisis, they had gone through a petty tyrant at the behest of the senate who proceeded to murder reformers (Sulla), the latifundia were destroying the Roman citizenry's ability to make a living, the slave economy was already wall on he way (linked with the latifundia), the Romans had already cut a bloody swath through most of the mediterranean, and it was only Gaius Julius and similar reformers who offered any respite from the crushing poverty in the form of agrarian work programs. One of these programs spearheaded by Gaius Julius itself was located in Carthage, who were still in poverty from the Punic Wars and Rome's far out of proportion campaign of terror. Guess who shut the program down which was expressly made to assist the impoverished population? The senate.

Your appraisal of medieval europe is also laughably poor. By most metrics the average condition of people increased in the middle ages, easily surpassing the large scale destitution that marked the Roman Republic and Empire for the vast majority of its inhabitants. If you want to talk about slavery, I bid you to look at the massive institutional slavery of Rome and its horrors rather than the comparatively mild institution of Western European Medieval serfdom. Regine Pernoud's body of work should be able to correct this misconception, I think.

No, I think your analysis is way off here and is reductive as well as rather facile. Michael Parenti's "The Assassination of Julius Caesar" offers a good summary of the power struggles going on in Rome between classes, I think. Arnold J. Toynbee is also useful as he offers one of the most nuanced and farsighted appraisals of the Roman system and the causes for its collapse, although his work on the subject is massive. There are good summaries of it online, and you can get his abridged A Study of History for pretty cheap which still contains the relevant chapters on the Roman Republic/Empire and the economic and social origins of its collapse.

True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)
18. My assessment of Caesar is simply based on his own words
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 06:32 AM
Nov 2014

followed by the historical consequences of his actions. It would have been one thing if he was a temporary dictator and then returned the Republic, like some of the earlier Romans. But he built a foundation of Monarchy that Augustus was able to waltz right into.

Rome had rocketed so far above the rest of the world because it had transcended monarchy - the basest political institution. He simply erased those centuries of human magnificence.

What might the final centuries of Rome have been if he had had a more liberal vision? Who knows what philosophies might have been produced? The Renaissance might have been precipitated by 1,500 years.

As for medieval Europe being better than in the Roman Empire, you're obviously excluding Italy. It was a charnel house. And Northern European serfdom was only milder than Roman slavery because it was so degenerate it could only function on the local level. They only knew their fellow villagers, their masters, and a handful of priests.

Class is never a reason to destroy liberty. We learned that well enough in the 20th century, when so many pieces of lying shit claimed to be serving the Working Class and merely reduced entire nations to poverty and totalitarian ruin.

The true healer is the one who calls people to cooperate for the good of all, and follows his own advice. Caesar was a spider. He saw the class struggles and exploited them to take apart the foundations of Roman freedom brick by brick. Better king of hell than servant of heaven, eh?

BlindTiresias

(1,563 posts)
27. Jesus christ, liberty?
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 06:45 AM
Nov 2014

The Romans had a massive slave economy and the rights and livelihoods of the plebs were constantly in peril. There was no notion of liberty in Roman society, you are flat out engaging in anachronistic thinking and applying 18th century enlightenment concepts onto a society that no notion of those concepts. They would have likely not produced anything of substance as the big technological innovations you seem to think would have flourished didn't exist until the Roman Empire proper(such as the very beginning of steam power), but the reliance on the slave economy tends to thwart labor saving devices. It was no mistake that by the 3rd century AD other peoples such as the Germans were already developing superior agricultural techniques: They weren't reliant on slavery. If you think slavery on the mass scale it was implemented in Rome was going to go away because it was a Republic I don't know what to tell you, as it was the primary defenders of the Senate who benefited from slavery the most and were its most violent (literally) defenders.

Your take on Medieval Europe is also outdated Victorian nonsense. Read some modern historians on the subject, please. Regine Pernoud and Susan Reynolds preferably.

Give me a break,did he Senate try and help anyone but their own wealth and privilege? No, they didn't. They consistently murdered anyone who tried to make life in Rome not miserable or who tried to pick up the pieces after their military rampages. If you want to blame anyone for the path the Republic took, it would be them.

True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)
37. The technological concepts I refer to were invented in the Hellenistic era.
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 07:06 AM
Nov 2014

As for the Senate, did Caesar build a stronger and more progressive Senate? Of course not. He built a weaker Senate that would obey him. Because he could not accept any failure resulting from the intrinsic character of Romans. He would rather that Rome itself be undermined and obey him, than that Rome say 'no' and some vision he had be thwarted.

Praising him is like praising Fidel Castro, only multiplied by a million.

BlindTiresias

(1,563 posts)
41. Nooo
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 07:11 AM
Nov 2014

The specific advances are actually in the Roman empire, the hellenistic period advances was even more rudimentary. I also note downthread that they didn't have the economy, metallurgy, or the infrastructure to support an industrial revolution.

Your overall appraisal of the Roman republic shows you don't know what you are talking about but crowing about a Roman industrial revolution is particularly egregious.

True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)
45. Tell me: What did Caesar do to capitalize on the extant advances of his time?
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 07:29 AM
Nov 2014

What did he do to capitalize on the benevolent aspects of democracy?

Everything he did, if he did anything for the people, was only if it served the foundation of monarchy.

BlindTiresias

(1,563 posts)
59. The roman republic was not a democracy
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 04:32 PM
Nov 2014

It was a republic with the senate primarily composed of individuals descended from an agrarian aristocracy. As stated before, Julius Caesar and really the entire populares political movement attempted to reduce the powers of the aristocratic senate, expand the franchise of citizenship to those outside of Rome (and Italy, later), and provide food and debt relief to the average plebs. The struggle for land was also part of this as the senatorial aristocracy had overwhelmingly dominated ownership of lands as part of a slave plantation system, which impoverished large sections of the population.

You have clearly demonstrated you know very little about Roman history and I recommend you educate yourself in the matter, as this is just embarrassing.

In terms of the origins on European monarchy after the fall of the western roman empire, I don't even know where to begin. That was an extension of the Germanic peoples that took over the periphery (and later the Italic core) of Rome. In the east, the Parthian and their successors, the Sassanids, were already establishing a type of feudal monarchy. This development has nothing to do with Julius Caesar unless you literally belief that when Julius Caesar takes over the Romans become weak monarchists and the Republic collapsed into feudal fiefdoms, but that is absurd and ahistorical. The origins of the collapse of the Western Roman Empire and the emerging feudal system and its monarchies is much more complex than a popular political figure getting into a power struggle with a greedy and degenerate senatorial aristocracy.

Fortinbras Armstrong

(4,473 posts)
34. The Roman Republic had been dying for years when Caesar came on the political scene.
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 06:55 AM
Nov 2014

Blaming him for its death is simplistic. It's like blaming Necker for the fall of the Ancien Régime in France.

True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)
49. I don't think so.
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 07:39 AM
Nov 2014

Rome was sick. Caesar had no ideas for saving it, just for turning it into something debauched. He preyed on its weakened state.

BlindTiresias

(1,563 posts)
58. The Senate were the ones preying on the weakened state
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 04:16 PM
Nov 2014

Julius Caesar's actions were a desperate bid to save it. At any rate, it was Augustus that ended the Republic, not Julius Caesar.

 

imthevicar

(811 posts)
23. Easy and In order of the ammount of people killed.
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 06:39 AM
Nov 2014

Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Then of course their are an assortment of others like the people who will cause the destruction of the Biosphere. Koch, David and of course Koch, Charles, with the amount of people they will be responsible for, well Mao will just blush.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
54. Well, or Tamerlane, with the pyramids of skulls, but the list is long.
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 08:35 AM
Nov 2014

I personally think Genghis Khan deserves a lifetime achievement award or something, but he just didn't have enough people to kill back then. Certainly as an example of conquest and militarily superiority in their time and place, the Mongol Hordes are hard to beat.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
66. I was thinking like that
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 05:56 PM
Nov 2014

It is likely people we haven't heard of, behind the scenes. Or general categories. The corporatists, the banksters and the media moguls

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
26. Dante put traitors in the very center of hell.
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 06:45 AM
Nov 2014

Those are the vipers who pretend to be on your side but are really working to destroy you.


True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)
39. Caesar was the king of such vipers.
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 07:09 AM
Nov 2014

Maybe he even believed he served Rome, but the verdict of time is unassailable. Since he took matters into his hands, things went to shit relatively fast - and stayed in shit for so long that people thought it was the standard lot of humankind.

Chemisse

(30,811 posts)
31. Dick Cheney
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 06:51 AM
Nov 2014

Perhaps he will go down as inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. But he is the epitome of what is truly evil in our current times.

I don't think Reagan was evil, as destructive as his policies were, and I don't think Nixon was evil, in spite of his perpetuation of the Vietnam war. In fact his crime - Watergate - seems like child's play now, decades later, when we have seen so much worse.

Of the three, only Cheney can be visualized rubbing his hands and grinning with diabolical delight at the evil he has wrought in the world, and the fortunes he has made while doing it.

And of course, Hitler.

I don't know enough about the Roman Empire to have an opinion about Caesar.

True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)
42. No one here will deny that Cheney and Reagan were evil.
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 07:16 AM
Nov 2014

But Cheney was was degenerate, and Reagan was farcical.

Richard Nixon was the Nietzschean mind in which they both were envisioned.

No one before him could claim to be responsible for Richard Nixon.

But Richard Nixon can claim both Reagan and Cheney as his children.

Rhiannon12866

(205,334 posts)
44. GMTA! I was just going to ask if we'd forgotten Dick Cheney...
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 07:25 AM
Nov 2014

He'd definitely be right up there on my list.

Rhiannon12866

(205,334 posts)
63. Good point. But I do have the perspective of my particular lifetime
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 04:58 PM
Nov 2014

I'd definitely put Hitler first, though I only know about him from history. And possibly Stalin. I did spend some time in the USSR, so learned more about his atrocities, and my grandparents emigrated from Poland, so heard about him from my grandmother. But you're right, Cheney will probably be a minor character if he's remembered by history at all.

BlindTiresias

(1,563 posts)
40. Also your Roman industrial rev notion is an absurdity
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 07:09 AM
Nov 2014

Their steampower was low power, had a complete lack of standardization, and they didn't have the metallurgy or the economy to support it. That is to say nothing of the fact that a massive slave economy backed by an entrenched and wealthy aristocracy with murderous proclivities and the power of the state behind them kind of stood in the way of starting some mythical Roman industrial revolution. No, this is pure fantasy on your part, OP.

Also, that steam power stuff occurred in the latter centuries of the Roman Empire, so...

True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)
43. Actually, steam power existed in the Hellenistic era.
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 07:22 AM
Nov 2014

Just not very efficiently.

I don't accuse Caesar of not being a technological genius, since that would be a ridiculous accusation. I accuse him of succumbing to the Persian model, where people were equalized by their mutual enslavement to the Great King.

He was a damned fool.

BlindTiresias

(1,563 posts)
61. jesus christ stop watching 300
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 04:46 PM
Nov 2014

Last edited Sat Nov 15, 2014, 06:37 PM - Edit history (1)

The Persian model was a kind of federalism, the satraps were autonomous or semi-autonomous states and were far from slaves. Part of the non-military reasons the Persians did not do well against more rigidly organized powers (Makedon) is they had difficulty organizing a cohesive force and a unified political will against a legit dictator, which was Alexander the Great and the military he inherited from another legit dictator, his father Philip II. If anything, the Persian satrap system and the Roman republic were more similar than different, so your use of the Roman Empire as somehow being of some Persian pattern is truly bizarre.

As far as a Roman industrial revolution, pure fantasy. The devices developed in the Hellenistic period were toys and some more sophisticated technologies did emerge in the 3rd century of the Roman Empire but they were still underpowered and lacked the metallurgy, economy, or infrastructure to use them in an industrial manner. You are engaging in what I like to call the Sid Meier fallacy, which is when one treats historical technological development like a tech tree building up to modern, Western industrial society. It doesn't work that way.

Island Deac

(104 posts)
51. Thanks....
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 07:52 AM
Nov 2014

One of the most interesting and educational reads that I've had in a very long time. Kudos to all who added to the thread. Being fan of Dante's writings and loving "Ancient History", I relish this type of cross-pollination of ideas.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
53. Mao, Stalin, and Hitler if you want to go by sheer indefatigable killing.
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 08:25 AM
Nov 2014

But this is a rich field of study, and such behavior can be expected whenever people are overcrowded and poorly cared for. One can easily argue that the three big guys I mentioned owe their pre-eminence mainly to having larger populations handy to kill off later in history.

rpannier

(24,329 posts)
55. Something people may find interesting about Brutus
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 09:18 AM
Nov 2014

About 450 years before the assassination of Julius Caesar at the hands of Brutus and the rest, King Lucius Tarquin, the last Roman King, was forced from his throne by a group that was lead by Lucius Junius Brutus which ultimately lead to the beginning of the Roman Republic.
Marcus Brutus was a descendent of Lucius Junius Brutus

http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/romeconsuls/a/120710-Lucius-Junius-Brutus.htm

Vinca

(50,271 posts)
56. I think you should spare Nixon.
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 09:21 AM
Nov 2014

There was an iota of goodness in the man. When the elderly GOP Senator George Aiken was dying in a small Vermont hospital, Nixon made the trip to say goodbye. And he did start the EPA (by executive order . . . how timely). Put Cheney in his place.

 

Tierra_y_Libertad

(50,414 posts)
60. "History supplies little more than a list of people who have helped themselves to the property
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 04:44 PM
Nov 2014
"History supplies little more than a list of people who have helped themselves to the property of others." - Voltaire

Rowdyboy

(22,057 posts)
64. That you need to read more Roman history, possibly something from a different perspective.
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 05:11 PM
Nov 2014

The repulsive prick Cato and his centrist toady Cicero did far more to bring about the Roman Empire than Gaius Julius Caesar, who was at least attempting to restore order to a totally dysfunctional "republic". If you find it essential to blame someone in the family, Augustus probably deserves the lion's share though the various generations of Pompey are right up there with him. And Mark Anthony played just as large a role....


hunter

(38,311 posts)
65. Meh. I don't have any faith in the naratives of history.
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 05:46 PM
Nov 2014

Shit happens.

When the situation turns ugly it's always best to solve the problems, run away, or even die kicking and screaming before you pledge your allegiance to any tyrant.

Every tyrant any population has historically committed themselves to is, in some ways, a scapegoat. Hitler or Caesar or Stalin or Pol Pot would never have happened in societies that overwhelmingly said to authority, "Go fuck yourself, I'm not listening to you."

My ancestors mostly walked, sailed, or ran away from trouble as soon as they saw it brewing. That's how they ended up in Wild West U.S.A..

First, get on a boat. When you reach America, jump overboard swim and/or run as fast as you can. Fully half my ancestors, all clearly European, Irish, Catholic, Jewish, whatever, were "undocumented." Dead ends on the family genealogy. They just appeared in the yard one day, like a stray dog.

My wife's ancestors are largely Southwestern American Indian who fled to Mexico when the situation got ugly, and Irish and Scots Catholic who fled to the Americas when things got ugly.

A good number of my ancestor's pacifist Christian and "passive resistance" intellectual kin probably died along the way, in horrible ways, but then again, shit happens. There hasn't been any real shortage of aggressive sapient apes on this planet for at least one or two million years now. It's The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas who deserve our respect.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
67. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot.
Sat Nov 15, 2014, 06:59 PM
Nov 2014

My recollection of Dante's reasoning might be a bit fuzzy, but those three who he had there were because of a monstrous betrayal of sorts.

I think genocides involving your own people when you were entrusted with their leadership is perhaps the worst betrayal of all.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
70. Antiquties - Nero, Caligula, Caesar
Mon Nov 17, 2014, 02:09 AM
Nov 2014

Dark ages - Tomas de Torquemada, Genghis Khan, Ivan the Terrible.

Modern times - Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, third place is a tie between Idi Amin, Pol Pot and Mao Zedong.

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