What is your opinion on the security of our border with Mexico?

[Algernon Moncrieff]

23 votes, 2 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	The current level of security is acceptable
	7 (30%)
	Border security needs to be improved
	16 (70%)
	2 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[Matrosov]

1. Funny how security with our Canadian border is never an issue

I wonder what they're doing differently with security for the border to Canada that conservatives never bring it up as an issue. Did we build an invisible wall there?

[Algernon Moncrieff]

4. I take your point, but it has been raised as an issue.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/10/16/marsha-blackburn-canada-border-ebola_n_5999020.html

A Republican Congresswoman raised the issue vis a vis Ebola. Others have brought up terror concerns. Having said that, no one has discussed building a wall or anything like that.

[Nye Bevan]

49. Is it really hard for you to understand why more people tend to migrate illegally from Mexico

than from Canada?

[davidn3600]

56. Because we dont have a serious problem with Canadians jumping over here illegally

[on point]

2. The real problem is failure to enforce law on employers

This was the goal of Reagan immigration law changes. Take away methods of enforcement on employers so they could exploit cheap illegal labor against US workers. Enforce the rule that only legal workers can be employed, and the problems will go away. Repukes don't want this of course, because the repukes work for the corporations.

There is to a labor shortage, only an unwillingness to pay people fair wages.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

6. I agree that no one comes here unless they think there's a good shot at finding work.

[oldandhappy]

3. The numbers of people coming across are way down.

That tells me: A hard to get a job, B things are better at home, C 'security' is already OK, D the publicity around the children this past summer has been heard, E the high numbers of deportations has been duly noted.

So, what is the purpose of this poll?

[Algernon Moncrieff]

8. The purpose of the poll is curiosity

I am a frustrated political scientist.

Specifically, I'm curious to see the attitudes of Dems and Progresives about the border. Republicans state that there should be no reform prior to securing the border. Do we share there view of the border, and simply disagree on prioritizing actions, or do we disagree about the need to secure the border.

So now I'll ask you a questin: "So, what is the purpose of this poll?" is DUspeak for "I think you have some hidden agenda" or "I think you are a right wing troll." Why do you think this of me?

[oldandhappy]

34. Nope, smile. I just wanted to know.

I have no preconceived notion about you. Just saw no purpose to the poll. If it makes you happy, fine. I am more interested in action! I like to send emails or write letters or postcards to express concern for things that happen.

I think Republicans are over zealous about most things. The border and ebola and Benghazi and women's reproductive organs seem to cycle around in their talking. I am concerned about food and education and health care.

In my opinion the best way to 'secure' the border is to have reform on immigration, and, to help Mexico cope with unemployment in the places where that is a problem. I have lived in Baja and have crossed the border many times. Fences and walls will not protect anything except anger.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

36. Sorry to be a little over-sensitive

Republicans have gotten really good at finding things that inflame white, suburban & rural public opinion, and then overplaying those points. Guns, religion, welfare (read: African Americans), and immigration (read: Latinos), and abortion (read: Women).

I have an even stranger notion: I'd like to take the foreign aid we currently spend on Israel, Egypt, and other Middle Eastern states, and divert those funds to Mexico and the Caribbean. Let's build stronger neighbors first. JMHO.

[oldandhappy]

37. I agree -- on all points.

The money spent on the military in the middle east could do a lot here and in Latin America.

[LeftInTX]

5. This is an issue that comes and goes

Now you need a US passport just to go shopping in Nuevo Laredo and vice versa.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

9. I think you can get the traveller card to go across the border by car or boat.

You still need a passport to fly into Mexico.


Ditto Canada.

[LeftInTX]

13. But the card is the same thing, except it fits in your wallet

Still gotta apply for the card etc. Can't spontaneously hop across the border like the good old days.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

18. I remember when you could just go to TJ

..and you used to have to take some proof of citizenship to the Bahamas, so people would generally bring voters reg cards.

The traveller card is cheaper than a passport, but works in a very strange way. For example, you can use the card to take a cruis ship to Ocho Rios; however, if I fly to Ocho Rios, I need a passport.

[badtoworse]

7. Illegals were crossing the Rio Grande on jet skis. What kind of security is that?

Sorry, but saying we have adequate security on the Southern border is laughable.

[Sneak the freak]

22. Yep

Wide open

[stone space]

39. Drop the I-Word.

Illegals

[a la izquierda]

40. Illegals? For real?

Good choice of words there.

[Autumn]

10. The one between us and Canada is the one I worry about.

All this stupid border security shit is just that, a bunch of stupid shit. Nothing more that a fucking tool to scare people.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

12. The main thing I worry about coming over the border from Canada is a pipeline

...but that's another story.

[Autumn]

16. Worse than any terrorist that could sneak across, and that one will come

over with the blessings of our elected leaders.

[kpete]

11. my family experience:

we have wondered the SW for 265 years that we can document

much of my family lives in Mexico, Cuba and Venezuela, the rest of us settled in TX, AZ & CA

we go where the jobs go,
right now the Family in Mexico City is doing really well,
Venezuela not so much,

in other words, the border is a figment of someone else's imagination
Borders are dotted lines on maps, where they work just fine,
real world, not so much

just try keeping this family from moving around what we consider OUR home



The Planet Earth


peace to all of us

[Algernon Moncrieff]

15. I wish Mexico could do two very difficult things

1) I wish that they could root out the systemic corruption that exists in their government and policing agencies (I wish we could do that as well).

2) I wish that they could break the backs of the violent drug organizations, so we can stop seeing stories like the mass murder of the students in Iguala.

The United States is better off with a peaceful and prosperous Mexico with fair, free trade and fair wages for all.

[pampango]

26. Well said, Algernon Moncrieff.

It would be nice if we could treat Mexico as Western Europe has treated Eastern Europe.

[a la izquierda]

41. Mexico has never had fair wages for all.

It has always has an exploited class. The US has done much to exploit this, in conjunction with the Mexican government.

And the murders of the students have little to do with the cartels, except that the mayor of Iguala's wife is connected and she didn't want her little coming out party disrupted. That's it. What's the bigger problem with Los 43 is that the government only gave a shit about them when people started screaming (as they should have).
They've been digging up mass graves that have nothing to do with the missing student-teachers. Those may or may not be related to cartel activity (though given the location of them- Guerrero- it's pretty likely).

The US enjoys a reasonably turbulent Mexico. Just not too turbulent. Can't disrupt business opportunities.

[panader0]

47. Yes I live about 15 miles as the crow flies from Mexico

Borders are arbitrary. a river, a longitude, a latitude. The people who live across that political line are my brothers and sisters,
just 15 miles away.

[treestar]

58. +1

humans migrate. They don't stay put on one part of the planet. That's how humans are.

No country is immune and no country can claim the people who happen to be there now aren't there because of some prior migration.

[ProfessorGAC]

14. I Guess I Have to Say "Acceptable"

But, i think a third option is to actually relax the security some. It should be way easier for Mexicans, Americans, and Canadians to move back and forth across the borders.

If someone is providing reasonable suspicion that they're up to criminal or terroristic activity, stop them.

We probably have even more than we need.

Yeah, i know some buffoons are into some big, ridiculous fence. Those folks watched "Escape from New York" too many times.

For >100 years there was no border guard for Mexico or Canada and that was the period where the US began its climb to being the most economically powerful nation ever.

Now, we can't say the latter and now we have these border concerns. Perhaps the concern is misplaced.

[Iggo]

17. I feel more than adequately secure.

[tenderfoot]

19. I think security over the southern border is hilarious

and a lot of mountains over mole hills.

[bemildred]

20. End the Drug War and it will improve. nt

[Algernon Moncrieff]

33. No disagreement from me there

[Marrah_G]

21. I think what we need to do more is offer Mexico help with the Cartels

The amount of death going on is unthinkable and I am not sure just stopping the war on drugs will solve it.

[Comrade Grumpy]

25. All the anti-drug aid we give Mexico just strengthens its corrupt repressive apparatus.

We gave them $1.6 billion under Plan Merida, and the killing only increased.

It's funny, Mexico sends in the army and the violence goes up.

The army, the federal police forces, the local police forces are all notoriously corrupt. It seems like half the cartel soldiers are cops.

Corruption, impunity, criminal violence are all intertwined, festering issues in Mexico. And the country is exploding over them right now.

[Marrah_G]

44. wow- I did not know we sent them that much

Not sure what the answer is, but too many innocent lives are being lost and it seems like people are more worried about the middle east then they are for our allies and next door neighbors.

[Comrade Grumpy]

23. You didn't provide an option for a less militarized border.

This border security thing is a fucking billion-dollar boondoggle and a racket. South Texas is about to sink under the weight of all those border cops and their toys.

I know those ebola-infected, Mexican drug cartel Islamic terrorists are scary, but good Lord!

I've been crossing that border for more than 30 years. It just gets more and more policed, more and more militarized, yet the drugs and the people keep coming. Maybe trying to build a giant wall around Fortress America isn't the way to address these issues. It certainly doesn't address their complex roots.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

32. I try to keep polls to simple, non-nuanced selections and figure people will post nuanced choices.

Despite accusations to the contrary, the poll was posted out of curiosity and not out of any agenda (real or imagined).

I actually did consider that as a choice, but for every person who says something along the lines of what you are saying, I see three-four others (some examples are in the thread) who make it seem like nobody is minding the store down there, and people are just boating and wading and ATVing to their hearts content. I'm not doubting you, but Im not doubting the others, either -- and I'm having difficulty reconcilint the two stories.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

62. This is precisely what I meant

when I said the border security issue is a non issue

[pampango]

24. "Liberals build bridges. Conservatives build walls." The republicans want to hire East German

border guards - who need jobs right now - to build an 1,900 mile long impenetrable wall along the Mexican border and back it up with land mines, machine guns and an willingness to shoot to kill anyone who gets over and around them.

Without a prosperous Mexico, "adequate" border control will require an "East German" scenario which would involve who knows how many billions of dollars. Since no one will spend this, it will never happen and fear of "them" will go on and be a political football for republicans.

[hunter]

27. It's the fucking gate of our fucking gated community.

I never wanted to live in a fucking gated community.

End the drug wars, end the wars in support of the dollar and the oil industry and the banks, and enforce strict labor laws that protect both citizen and non-citizen workers, and then we wouldn't have to put up with the fucking border hassles.

I hate push polls too.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

31. OK, how is this a push poll?

Again, if there is something of which you'd like to accuse me, just say it and stop being cute.

[hunter]

61. The current level of border "security" is entirely unacceptable.

It's merely a tool for the harassment of travelers. Welcome to the fascist state, mind your manners or we will hurt you.

The real rotten players pass through freely.

Drugs into the U.S.A., guns into Mexico, and the money laundered by international banks. The wheels of this organized criminal business are greased by corruption on all sides.

The major cultural difference of U.S.A. and Mexican corruption is that the U.S. crime bosses run a tighter ship and have little tolerance for smaller players who are excessively violent or so blatantly and obviously corrupt they cause political problems.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

64. See..you could have just said that and not accused me of push polling

I'd point out that many DUers seem to at least sort of disagree with you, but I've seen others echo your sentiment.

[hunter]

66. Politicians are always sending out polls like this one.

Just two or three misleading choices I can't agree with.

Our borders are a mess, and too many xenophobic, racist, U.S. Americans won't even consider the problems that make them a mess.

Throwing money into a system that is already misguided and/or corrupt, and pandering to xenophobic and racist U.S. Americans, or sketchy politically connected contractors, only makes the problem worse.

[Agnosticsherbet]

28. None of the above - (1) Raise the minimum wage so we no longer create jobs that do not pay enough

to survive. Undocumented works are used to keep wages artificially low.
(2) Confiscate businesses and jail the owners and managers for using undocumented workers.

[Ink Man]

29. We should, and do

have a big front door. But we should control when that door it's open and closed. Right now we don't.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

30. We have an odd and inconsistent policy

Despite the perception to the contrary in some quarters, immigrants don't, except in rare instances, come here to "sponge off food stamps and welfare" as some conservtives suggest. They are escaping poverty and/or opression and/or war.

But the front door control has been odd. Nowhere is that more evident than in Florida. When Cubans fleeing Castro/fleeing Cuban poverty can get to dry land, they are allowed in under the wet feet/dry feet policy. Haitians , who are escaping a nation far more impoverished, and pretty much just as opressive, are frequently deported.

I agree with those upthread -- go after the employers. We can build the Berlin Wall II from Brownsville to San Diego; however, the determined will still find ways in. They'll use boats, planes, tunnels, and hang gliders. However, if they can't be legally employed, and employers are severely punished for illegal hiring, then the influx will slow to a trickle.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

35. this is an imaginary problem.

[Nye Bevan]

48. "So far this year thirty-one bodies or remains have been discovered"

During the hot summer months, dozens of migrants die trying to cross the southern border in Arizona and California. Now, Texas is seeing an increase in the number of immigrant dying as they cross the U.S.-Mexico border and lose their way in the desert.

.....

So far this year thirty-one bodies or remains have been discovered. Last year 129 bodies were found, a record that made the Rio Grande Valley area of Texas the second deadliest crossing region, behind Tucson, Arizona. The U.S. Border Patrol says that in total, 463 people died last year trying to cross the southern border.

http://www.homelandsecuritynewswire.com/dr20130626-texas-sees-rise-in-number-of-border-crossers-dying-in-the-summer-heat

Referring to this as an "imaginary problem" strikes me as somewhat callous.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

53. The need to add more security is the problem

I am referring to. providing humanitarian aide at the border is not the same thing as more border security

[Nye Bevan]

55. Good border security means people do not attempt to sneak across

and die in the process.

[Starry Messenger]

38. I think people should be allowed to come and go more freely.

[Logical]

42. And you assume they are all from mexico? nt

[Starry Messenger]

43. ?

[Nye Bevan]

50. How do you get "Mexico" from that post? (nt)

[treestar]

59. Yes.

Our laws are unrealistic. And when we can't enforce them, we complain that people don't obey them on their own. We wouldn't have a huge underground population if we simply granted some sort of stay here for a reasonable time with reasonable expectations.

[0rganism]

45. jeez just look at that thing, is border security even possible?

even if we had McCain's magic fence, how would we stop tunnelers?

if the Israelis can't stop people from tunneling in from Gaza, how the hell is our kooky government going to stop people from crossing... THAT?

[GoCubsGo]

46. More security on the border will not solve our problems.

Prosecuting the people who employ undocumented workers will go a long way toward it, on the other hand. But, they're the ones paying off our elected officials to not do anything about our immigration situation.

[Hoyt]

51. It could be improved, but no crocodiles in moats, yahoo snipers, etc.

[MADem]

52. We don't need more fences.

The way to limit undocumented immigration is to throw employers in jail and/or fine them up the WAZOO if they hire people without the proper documents. We need a way for employers to check documents to make sure that they're not faked or stolen. I think setting up such a program, maybe automated to some extent, would be cheaper than building a fence (we'd probably end up hiring undocumented workers to build the stupid thing).

If there are no jobs to be had, people will not come across.

There are more tunnels under the border than we can shake a stick at, anyway.

[KentuckyWoman]

54. Mexico gets a raw deal

We export a bunch of guns and poverty into Mexico. Depend on cheap labor of "illegals" that fled the very conditions we created. The whole situation is so toxic and so huge there are not any real solutions I can see short of magically changing human greed.

[treestar]

57. It may be physically impossible to secure it perfectly.

And the influx of immigrants over it is not a severe enough problem to do more than we generally do. Except to racists, it's not a big harm to the country.

[HereSince1628]

60. It's not nearly profitable enough.

[LanternWaste]

63. My most fundamental belief is that it is simply impossible to secure that which is wholly imaginary.

My most fundamental belief is that it is simply impossible to secure that which is wholly imaginary.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

65. How about "The current level of security is already absurd"

The political boundaries between the US and Canada and Mexico are accidents of history.

That there are even immigration controls between Canada and the US is ridiculous to me. It's the honor (pardon me, honour) system if there ever was one.