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True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 05:07 AM Nov 2014

The Three Dimensions of Liberalism, and the Three Dementias of Conservatism

Given the vast number of liberal ideas, and the wide range of opinions among us, it's kind of surprising to realize that basically all of it can be boiled down to three independent and coequal values: Liberty, Equality, and Opportunity.

Another word for Liberty in a liberal context is autonomy: The practical ability of individuals to make free choices with all forms of coercion (legal, social, economic, etc.) minimized.

Equality can also be stated as fairness, and refers to systemic guarantees that nobody's exercise of Liberty is permitted to limit anyone else's, and especially not across generations. In other words, you do not have the freedom to enslave someone - that is not a free choice on your part that can be permitted, because it violates the independent value of Equality. Nor do you have the right to create rigid social classes perpetuated by inheritance: People don't choose their parents, so public services are a matter of both Liberty and Equality, as well as Opportunity.

Opportunity is the "progressive" in liberalism - not merely the neutral permission of science, philosophy, free thought, social diversity, and political experimentation, but boldly pursuing them as ends in themselves and collectively committing to that pursuit. Not to seek advantage over others, and not to serve the vanity of an identity group, but as a fundamental expression of life and consciousness. Not to escape anything, but to forever seek the new and open new roads to those who follow.

Not only are these values fundamental to liberal thought, but the presence and interconnectedness of all three distinguish liberalism from other moral systems.

For instance, libertarianism rejects Equality entirely and sees Opportunity as a dependent variable on Liberty (defined by libertarians as lack of government involvement - a preposterous corruption of the value), rather than being an independent political dimension. In other words, they only acknowledge one of the three as a fundamental value, and corrupt the meaning of that one to suit irrelevant fetishes.

Conservatism rejects all three and serves a totally separate pseudo-moral system whose only values are Power, Primacy, and Proximity. I refer to these as the Three Dementias of Conservatism, since they result from developmental failure rather than from philosophical or moral reflection.

Power just means "might makes right" - 'I have the right to do something because I have the power to do it and you don't have the power to stop me', and they're totally satisfied with such justifications (at least of their own behavior), so long as there's not much conflict with the other two conservative values. They can respect the power of liberals when we hold it, but they see our having it as a profanation because we don't worship the power we hold as they do, so we're "unworthy" of it.

Primacy means that things which come before and are already established are inherently preferable to new ideas, ergo their belief in a fantasy Golden Age that the present has degenerated from, and their love of imposing authoritarian cultural orthodoxies. They can respect the primacy and orthodoxy of liberal ideas they inherit as established, but they again see them as profane because those ideas are inherently anti-dogmatic. So they try their best to ignore them while whittling away at the philosophical foundations that maintain them.

Proximity means how closely someone or something resembles them or flatters their vanity. This is why they're racist, xenophobic, sexist, and religious bigots, despite the damage it does to their prospects for Power and the level of deviation from Primacy that might be involved. The reflection in the mirror is their North Star for moral perfection.

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The Three Dimensions of Liberalism, and the Three Dementias of Conservatism (Original Post) True Blue Door Nov 2014 OP
Liberte Egalite Opportunite Hari Seldon Nov 2014 #1
We have much in common with the French, but significant differences. True Blue Door Nov 2014 #2
That's a good point. BlueEye Nov 2014 #8
It's because France was more Roman and Britain more German. True Blue Door Nov 2014 #12
i like this explication very much. barbtries Nov 2014 #3
Maybe in this century that does reflect reality HereSince1628 Nov 2014 #4
Unity is not necessarily a liberal value, or a value at all. True Blue Door Nov 2014 #5
Yes, but togetherness is a conceptually rich concept HereSince1628 Nov 2014 #6
Well said, but I think it's a means to an end rather than a fundamental. True Blue Door Nov 2014 #9
IMO, the sequencing of emergence of social properties HereSince1628 Nov 2014 #11
But a lot of "attacks on togetherness" have been ours. True Blue Door Nov 2014 #13
If you wish...legal equality presumes shared rights, i.e. togetherness under the law. HereSince1628 Nov 2014 #14
I suppose unity might be considered a "meta-value." True Blue Door Nov 2014 #15
Who practices these values of which you speak? Android3.14 Nov 2014 #7
Liberals generally practice these values. True Blue Door Nov 2014 #10
"to answer all of your questions, Yes" Android3.14 Nov 2014 #16
Yes, yes, yes, you have a laundry list in your head of everything Obama *hasn't* done. True Blue Door Nov 2014 #17
Oops, I'm sensing cognitive dissonance Android3.14 Nov 2014 #18
You live in your own little world. True Blue Door Nov 2014 #19
The unfortunate side to your snit is I agree with your broad analysis in the OP Android3.14 Nov 2014 #21
Either you don't consider yourself a liberal, or you don't consider yourself a Democrat True Blue Door Nov 2014 #22
Curious Android3.14 Nov 2014 #23
Amnesia is the handmaiden of lies. True Blue Door Nov 2014 #26
Nice list Android3.14 Nov 2014 #29
Excellent piece! hifiguy Nov 2014 #20
There's an old adage that trying the get liberals to work together is like herding cats. baldguy Nov 2014 #24
That they want liberalism to win? True Blue Door Nov 2014 #25
I'm not sure they do. baldguy Nov 2014 #27
It's a balance. Always is. Always will be. True Blue Door Nov 2014 #28

BlueEye

(449 posts)
8. That's a good point.
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 08:11 AM
Nov 2014

"Fraternity" implies a level of social togetherness beyond just "Opportunity." France has a communal feel to it, which is nowhere more evident than on the Paris Metro, where "personal space" doesn't exist.

The 1/3 difference you cite is rooted in both nations' history. The United States is the "frontier" nation that allowed individualism to thrive (in theory, at least). To me, equal opportunity means protecting the rights of all people, no matter what color, creed, or background, to thrive as individuals.

True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)
12. It's because France was more Roman and Britain more German.
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 09:02 AM
Nov 2014

We inherited the egoism of the North Sea without the benefit of its hyper-rationalism. Which I suppose is both good and bad.

HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)
4. Maybe in this century that does reflect reality
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 07:11 AM
Nov 2014

in which 'togetheness', the concept of 'being in it together', the notion of building structures and institutions of a caring society through collective strength has become completely obsolete.

Maybe it's a generational thing, but the way I see it, power and primacy of the oligarchs and plutocrats can't be wrestled into shared control and regulation that guarantees opportunity for all without unity.

Without togetherness and the shared resolve and united strength that derives from it I don't know how social equality can be established and preserved.


True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)
5. Unity is not necessarily a liberal value, or a value at all.
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 07:29 AM
Nov 2014

The Spartans were the most unified people of all time, and they were evil incarnate.

Unity is merely a phase of society, like ice is a phase of water.

Yes, it's good for liberals to unite, but unite too well and you simply make yourself The Establishment that others have to rebel against to solve the problems that your unity causes.

Is it better to go through cycles of freezing and thawing, or to remain constantly in motion?

That's not really a value question - more an aesthetic one.

HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)
6. Yes, but togetherness is a conceptually rich concept
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 07:59 AM
Nov 2014

and democracy cannot stand on one leg--the 'check' on tyranny of a united majority is commitment to equality.

And there is a rub...for equality can be taken as an inherent starting point or a life-long quality that must be maintained through enforcement of ... a cooperating society.

Frankly you can't have anything like democracy with majority rule without some functional clustering that yields togetherness. From time to time there must be expression of the will of the majority and the elite powers must yield to that. Is such democracy potentially dangerous? Yes, potentially very dangerous.

During the French revolution the phrase that referred to the concept of togetherness was fraternity. Today that is probably a sexist term...but as it was, it implied an inter-relatedness of shared aspiration, concern for others who were seen as being in it together...it overlaps and links to equality and liberty and it's the over-lap of value that constructs the bundle of values that is foundational to a functional democratic society.

Liberty, equality, and opportunity can be parsed in a manner that makes them essential to yeoman libertarianism and the very un-democratic principle of selfishness. What binds free independent spirits who consider themselves the equal to everyone else and entitled to access to opportunity, if not a belief that these pursuits are made with reference to how they impose on others for whom we have fraternal interest?

Togetherness makes the reach for equality possible. Togetherness makes possible social infrastructures with democratic access upon which desired equal access to opportunity rests. Unity is the fundamental concept that makes the United States united.

Lack of togetherness, is one of our significant problems. The GOP, the states righters, and the yeoman libertarians of the Tea-party all seek, for various selfish reasons to destroy the checks on individualism that ensure a unity with equality and opportunity for all.



True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)
9. Well said, but I think it's a means to an end rather than a fundamental.
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 08:27 AM
Nov 2014

Libertarians and teabaggers et al are dangerous because they fetishize irrelevant factors - the "size" of government as a dollar value devoid of context, the group as a parasite on the individual rather than an inherent reflection, and so on. They worship this bullshit and consider the lives of actual human beings less important.

But we only face them because the opposite fetishes (absolutist governance and collectivism) have already been defeated, and not by reacting in the opposite direction - it wasn't libertarians who defeated totalitarianism, and it won't likely be old world socialists who defeat these neo-manorialist pricks.

We have to fractalize our values to work on multiple levels. If it only works by forming huge, unified social movements and gigantic bureaucracies, then it simply won't work at all - the piranhas will pick it apart. It has to be multi-layered.

We are all individuals, and we are also all part of collectives. We are trees, and we are forest. The choice of emphasis is largely a matter of convenience.

HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)
11. IMO, the sequencing of emergence of social properties
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 08:48 AM
Nov 2014

suggest what is fundamental or foundational. However, I really don't want to become divided on this point.

The rhetoric is not essentially important to me.

Whether togetherness is a footing or a keystone, it is essential to the establishment and maintenance of the arch of democracy.

And whether it is a footing or a keystone doesn't change the reality that attacks on togetherness by selfish interest are a huge threat to all the principles we both hold dear.



True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)
13. But a lot of "attacks on togetherness" have been ours.
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 09:15 AM
Nov 2014

In the interest of all three LEO values, we have undermined the cultural power of religion despite its unifying properties.

All three made it necessary to erode the vise-grip of militarism over our culture in the 20th century.

We have sought to wrench the American people away from corporate MSM brainwashing by creating as wide a profusion of information sources as possible, thus undermining the common understandings that used to be socially unifying - because better a kaleidoscopic cacophany where truth can survive than a simple set of lies everyone swallows.

Where we've failed is to then pivot from those moves toward consolidating what we could then create. In the vacuum of religion, we have not built a solid philosophical foundation. In the vacuum of militarism, we have not built a solid web of human understanding. We have not used the opportunities of the internet to recreate rigorous journalism, merely to create new forms of tabloid sensationalism.

HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)
14. If you wish...legal equality presumes shared rights, i.e. togetherness under the law.
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 09:57 AM
Nov 2014

Opportunity, presumably -equal- opportunity is an emergent property of equality.

Liberty, presumably -equal- liberty for all, is also an emergent property of equality.

Consequently in my view, the things you see as basic principles, upon reductive consideration reveal as base elements of their composition, unity/togetherness/fraternity.

I'm not opposed to the things you see as good qualities. I see them as ordered somewhat differently and that I recognize another as a rather essential feature.

You seem to be hung up on that feature. Worried about the notion that unity can produce tryanny of majority and/or mass stupidity. Well, yes, as I have agreed, it can and too often does. Yet, the values you describe do so as well, and are worked into the fabric of libertarian individualism and sovereign citizenship, although with a twist you don't see as possible. That twist isn't unlike the torque you place on unity. All these concepts have potential to go awry, but maybe you reject that possibility out of hand...

America sits as an emergent society upon the history of advancing civilization that is moved away from the feudalism (with its inherent unequalties resting squarely on liberty and opportunity) by collective will and action. Which is to say...equality isn't basic, but an objective/goal.

In sum, the egalitarian democratic organization you seek cannot stand on any single value, it requires balancing and binding together. All the things both of us cherish must be held -together- in an aggregate whole so that the pieces do not work against each other. Famous words...a house divided against itself cannot stand.

It is an architrave, if you will, upon a complex support system...footings, walls, pillars, arches, keystones...

The system does not exist and cannot exist as a whole unless it exists together.

Foundational, fundamental, transcendental...however you may wish to describe it, togetherness/unity is essential and basic to the structure of the egalitarian democracy you describe, and that we both dream to be.

True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)
15. I suppose unity might be considered a "meta-value."
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 10:19 AM
Nov 2014

LEO is sort of an interconnected system, so perhaps it has a singular nature as well its triple manifestation.

And now we've stumbled into a medieval discussion about the Christian trinity!

Fun was had by all.

 

Android3.14

(5,402 posts)
7. Who practices these values of which you speak?
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 08:01 AM
Nov 2014

Liberty, Equality, and Opportunity - that's so sweet. Hence, the Democratic party has been acting to reign in the police state, create a fair tax program, and increase the funding for public K-16 education?

Golly.

 

Android3.14

(5,402 posts)
16. "to answer all of your questions, Yes"
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 11:50 AM
Nov 2014

Sure they do.
I'll think of that as the NSA continues to monitor innocent people.
I'll keep that in mind as I pay a higher percentage of my non-disposable income in taxes than Mitt Romney.
I'll keep that in mind as state universities across the nation coninue to lower or flatline education budgets and pass on the costs to tuition.

Liberals might practice these values (or at least say they do), but Democrats do not.

True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)
17. Yes, yes, yes, you have a laundry list in your head of everything Obama *hasn't* done.
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 11:55 AM
Nov 2014

Keep pondering that and admiring your own morally perfect reflection while he saves millions of lives.

You're such a hero, tearing down other people's accomplishments instead of building on them.

The only history you can claim to have made is to have voted for this amazing President. Of course, I only assume you did so.

 

Android3.14

(5,402 posts)
18. Oops, I'm sensing cognitive dissonance
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 01:56 PM
Nov 2014

It's okay, True Blue Door. You can avoid any thinking. Just take two fingers and place them in your ears and repeat after me, "lalalalalalala."

Actually, I'd be happy if it were just a laundry list of failed accomplishments rather than a systemic entrenchment of abandoned or horribly warped principles (Guantanamo, the joke of the ACA, return to Iraq, corporatizing education, drones, administrative secrecy etc.), a betrayal of civil rights (police state spying, racist drug war) and willful economic harm to the majority of Americans (TPP, failure to prosecute anyone in the economic scandals). And while my noting how Democrats have lost their way may be heroic in your eyes, I actually would rather be singing praises about the truly progressive things they legitimately accomplished.

Let me know if any of those actually happen.

True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)
19. You live in your own little world.
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 02:08 PM
Nov 2014

If you ever emerge from that world into the one the rest of the human species occupies, feel free to talk to some of the people this President has helped.

 

Android3.14

(5,402 posts)
21. The unfortunate side to your snit is I agree with your broad analysis in the OP
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 02:48 PM
Nov 2014

I just wish we had actual liberals (heck, at this point I just wish we had actual Democrats!) working through the party.

True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)
22. Either you don't consider yourself a liberal, or you don't consider yourself a Democrat
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 02:52 PM
Nov 2014

or you don't include yourself at all in that criticism. Either way it's lame, delusional, and a ridiculous insult against millions of people.

If you want to change the Party, you've certainly gotten off to a shitty start, dissing everyone in it and belittling everyone we respect.

 

Android3.14

(5,402 posts)
23. Curious
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 06:34 PM
Nov 2014

My criticism is of the Democratic Party leadership, rather than liberals. I do agree with you that the Democratic Party for some time now has been lame, delusional and a ridiculous insult against millions of (progressive) people. That is what you meant, yes?

If you take my comments as directed to everyone in the party and belittling everyone we respect, then I'll just have to assume you misunderstand the concepts of "everyone" and "we".

The data are rather compelling that few in the party respect the pitiful excuse for leadership we have seen these past several years. Unless, of course, people stayed home and declined to vote for the Democrats this past election out of some sort of horrible misunderstanding.

From your comments and the OP, I am curious as to what prompts you to believe the Democratic Party practices "Liberty, Equality, and Opportunity"? Their actions at best are inconsistent and the results certainly do not show this.

True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)
26. Amnesia is the handmaiden of lies.
Sat Nov 22, 2014, 06:01 AM
Nov 2014

I'm sure you'll forget this as soon as you read it and start spouting the same lines over and over again, but:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025847612

That is what a Democrat is. Also what a liberal and a progressive are.

It's not petulant whining by people who think they contribute by tearing down everyone who actually does.

This President's accomplishments will be remembered. His attackers, well...how much do you remember about the do-nothing armchair generals who dismissed the New Deal as a capitalist lipstick pig and Roosevelt as a Judas goat?

Liberty, Equality, and Opportunity are about actual human beings going about their actual lives, not your fucking Noam Chomsky book shelf. And that's what shapes the value of a Presidency, and a person.

 

Android3.14

(5,402 posts)
29. Nice list
Sat Nov 22, 2014, 11:12 AM
Nov 2014

Does it, in the eye's of the electorate, balance Guantanamo, the joke of the ACA, our return to Iraq, corporatizing education, drones, administrative secrecy, police state spying, racist drug war, TPP, and a failure to prosecute anyone in the economic scandals?

The past election (for which I voted a straight D ticket) provides an answer to that question, though you may be unwilling to acknowledge the loss.

Liberty, Equality, and Opportunity are superb characteristics. If only the Democratic leadership personified those...

Anyway, I'll leave you the opportunity for the last word. I'm finished with this thread.

 

baldguy

(36,649 posts)
24. There's an old adage that trying the get liberals to work together is like herding cats.
Fri Nov 21, 2014, 08:28 PM
Nov 2014

What does this say about the people that want all liberals to move in lock-step, all in the same direction & at the same time?

 

baldguy

(36,649 posts)
27. I'm not sure they do.
Sat Nov 22, 2014, 07:57 AM
Nov 2014

Especially when they advocate litmus tests & purges for people who disagree with them. These things are not very liberal.

True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)
28. It's a balance. Always is. Always will be.
Sat Nov 22, 2014, 08:01 AM
Nov 2014

Some people of dubious character and morals are useful.

Some people of dubious competence are necessary for the ideals they represent.

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