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DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » Legal beagles... What qua...

Tue Nov 25, 2014, 06:36 PM

Oktober (1,488 posts)

 

Legal beagles... What qualifies as incitement...? a la "Burn this b**** down...

My layman understanding is that it has to be an immediate and direct incitement to action. IOW, you can't talk about what you might do next Tuesday...

Where would Michael Brown's stepfather's statements fall into that with his whole "Burn this b**** down" statement in the large group that he was in. If it could be shown that folks from that group immediately left and then proceeded to set fires could there be a case?

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Arrow 37 replies Author Time Post
Reply Legal beagles... What qualifies as incitement...? a la "Burn this b**** down... (Original post)
 Oktober Nov 2014 OP
LineReply By legal definition
 Chuuku Davis Nov 2014 #1
LineReply Too general for prosecution.
 former9thward Nov 2014 #2
LineReply Can you show anyone who heard him did that? n/t
 dilby Nov 2014 #3
LineLineReply The clip has been on TV.
 ctaylors6 Nov 2014 #21
LineReply What is your point with this?
 Kalidurga Nov 2014 #4
LineLineReply Post removed
 Post removed Nov 2014 #5
LineLineLineReply Do you think I didn't understand what legal hurdles you were trying to understand?
 Kalidurga Nov 2014 #8
LineLineLineLineReply So what's the question....?
 Oktober Nov 2014 #12
LineLineLineLineLineReply I am not the one with the question...
 Kalidurga Nov 2014 #16
LineLineLineLineLineLineReply If I were a shop owner who had my livelihood burnt to the foundation...
 Oktober Nov 2014 #23
LineLineLineLineLineLineLineReply Oh well now that I can tell the shop owner
 Kalidurga Nov 2014 #24
LineLineLineLineLineLineLineLineReply I'm sure that's real comfort to someone who lost the ability to provide for their family...
 Oktober Nov 2014 #25
LineLineLineLineLineLineLineLineLineReply Well then get the Better Business Bureau on that to make the police stop terrorizing the citizens..
 Kalidurga Nov 2014 #26
LineLineLineLineLineLineLineLineLineLineReply Uh huh...
 Oktober Nov 2014 #27
LineLineLineLineLineLineLineLineLineLineNew Reply Nobody said the violence is justified.
 Kalidurga Nov 2014 #28
LineLineLineReply clear as mud
 kydo Nov 2014 #11
LineLineLineLineReply Yep
 Kalidurga Nov 2014 #15
LineLineLineLineNew Reply Great point. nt
 Quixote1818 Nov 2014 #29
LineLineLineLineNew Reply Because nobody has listened to Nugent's exhortations and acted upon them
 mythology Nov 2014 #36
LineLineLineLineLineNew Reply and the other person I spoke of, clive bundy ....
 kydo Nov 2014 #37
LineLineReply Obvious point is obvious. (n/t)
 Iggo Nov 2014 #20
LineReply So the guy who kills his stepson gets off without even a trial
 gollygee Nov 2014 #6
LineReply Why? You want to arrest a grieving stepfather?
 BklnDem75 Nov 2014 #7
LineReply No
 azmom Nov 2014 #9
LineReply Incitement to precisely what? nt
 msanthrope Nov 2014 #10
LineReply Nope, no more illegal than ignorance and lack of compassion. nt
 Ykcutnek Nov 2014 #13
LineLineReply Lot of that going around. n/t
 gollygee Nov 2014 #14
LineReply Are you hoping that might happen? n/t
 Spazito Nov 2014 #17
LineReply See Brandenburg v. Ohio. Link below:
 kelly1mm Nov 2014 #18
LineReply I'll tell you two things that actually DID start a riot.
 Iggo Nov 2014 #19
LineReply The anguished cries of a parent (step parent) at hearing their child's murderer ....
 etherealtruth Nov 2014 #22
LineLineNew Reply I love your sig line. nt
 kelliekat44 Nov 2014 #31
LineLineLineNew Reply Thank you! n/t
 etherealtruth Nov 2014 #34
LineNew Reply Well, since shooting an unarmed teen isn't considered murder I guess 'incitement' isn't what you
 The Straight Story Nov 2014 #30
LineLineNew Reply You know that words have meaning right?
 Oktober Nov 2014 #32
LineNew Reply Oktober... What qualifies as involuntary manslaughter...? a la "he looked like a demon"...
 Leopolds Ghost Nov 2014 #33
LineLineNew Reply My guess is the basis for the initial interaction plays a large role...
 Oktober Nov 2014 #35

Response to Oktober (Original post)

Tue Nov 25, 2014, 06:39 PM

Chuuku Davis (503 posts)

1. By legal definition

Yes

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Response to Oktober (Original post)

Tue Nov 25, 2014, 06:39 PM

Star Member former9thward (29,025 posts)

2. Too general for prosecution.

It could be argued he is talking about racism, the American system, etc. He would have to point to a specific building and that would probably be enough.

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Response to Oktober (Original post)

Tue Nov 25, 2014, 06:40 PM

dilby (2,273 posts)

3. Can you show anyone who heard him did that? n/t

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Response to dilby (Reply #3)

Tue Nov 25, 2014, 09:20 PM

ctaylors6 (693 posts)

21. The clip has been on TV.

I'm sorry I don't remember which station. It was right after Michael Brown's mom started crying.

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Response to Oktober (Original post)

Tue Nov 25, 2014, 06:41 PM

Kalidurga (14,177 posts)

4. What is your point with this?

Do you have any idea how infuriating it is to deal with the institutional racism and personal racism black people have to deal with everyday. They know they are targets and frequently get shot by the police. They know the power structure that is designed to keep them in their "place". And you want to use this man's words against him. That is disgusting.

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #4)

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Response to Post removed (Reply #5)

Tue Nov 25, 2014, 06:49 PM

Kalidurga (14,177 posts)

8. Do you think I didn't understand what legal hurdles you were trying to understand?

What I want to know is what is your point. You haven't answered that. The fact I have a problem with that is evident.

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #8)

Tue Nov 25, 2014, 06:58 PM

Oktober (1,488 posts)

12. So what's the question....?

 

It sounds like you've got it all laid out.

No point other than would X meet the legal standard for Y....

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Response to Oktober (Reply #12)

Tue Nov 25, 2014, 07:17 PM

Kalidurga (14,177 posts)

16. I am not the one with the question...

You seem a bit challenged. So, the question is why would you ask this? Really do you not get why someone like Mike Brown's stepfather would be so angry? Do you not understand why people would think it's such a disgusting idea of talking about the legality of him uttering angry words in the moment? Do you not get that. Or are you just looking for free pizza?

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #16)

Wed Nov 26, 2014, 03:11 AM

Oktober (1,488 posts)

23. If I were a shop owner who had my livelihood burnt to the foundation...

 

... I might be interested to know who had helped to start it.

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Response to Oktober (Reply #23)

Wed Nov 26, 2014, 03:12 AM

Kalidurga (14,177 posts)

24. Oh well now that I can tell the shop owner

Darren Wilson and his lovely way of enforcing institutional racism.

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #24)

Wed Nov 26, 2014, 03:14 AM

Oktober (1,488 posts)

25. I'm sure that's real comfort to someone who lost the ability to provide for their family...

 

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Response to Oktober (Reply #25)

Wed Nov 26, 2014, 03:16 AM

Kalidurga (14,177 posts)

26. Well then get the Better Business Bureau on that to make the police stop terrorizing the citizens..

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #26)

Wed Nov 26, 2014, 03:20 AM

Oktober (1,488 posts)

27. Uh huh...

 

Short of a gun to the head and handing them a pack of matches, it is on them.

All this justification and excuse making for violence is just sad and does nothing but set folks back...

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Response to Oktober (Reply #27)

Wed Nov 26, 2014, 03:23 AM

Kalidurga (14,177 posts)

28. Nobody said the violence is justified.

But it isn't setting anyone back except maybe that kid that was murdered by who knows who. People aren't going to think less of black people because of this, if they do they already did.

BTW you aren't fooling me. You really should take a look at how you really feel about race, civil rights, human decency, etc...

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Response to Post removed (Reply #5)

Tue Nov 25, 2014, 06:51 PM

kydo (2,679 posts)

11. clear as mud

But I got a question that might answer your question ... Um, how come ted nugent hasn't been charged with anything yet? First he promised when Obama was elected he would either be dead or in jail. Liar, he is neither, and that's beside the point. But he (and many of his type) sure have said and written some pretty threatening things about the President. Then there is that clive bundy joker, why isn't he in jail yet?

Go figure.

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Response to kydo (Reply #11)

Tue Nov 25, 2014, 07:15 PM

Kalidurga (14,177 posts)

15. Yep

But it's okay if you are a famous white guy who used to have some kind of career in entertainment.

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Response to kydo (Reply #11)

Wed Nov 26, 2014, 03:29 AM

Quixote1818 (27,852 posts)

29. Great point. nt

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Response to kydo (Reply #11)

Wed Nov 26, 2014, 10:54 AM

mythology (9,527 posts)

36. Because nobody has listened to Nugent's exhortations and acted upon them

 

The mere advocacy of violence isn't sufficient cause to arrest for incitement. You have to prove intent, imminence and likelihood.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio

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Response to mythology (Reply #36)

Fri Nov 28, 2014, 10:40 AM

kydo (2,679 posts)

37. and the other person I spoke of, clive bundy ....

he still has his land and he still uses the US gov to support himself. He also had basically an army (not the US army just a gang of armed thugs from the nra and groups like it), came to protect him. Yet he still is not in jail or paid nothing to the bill he owes to the US tax payers. Talk about people that only want hand outs from the government, this dude is the King of the welfare queens. But the establishment sees no problem there. Just saying....

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #4)

Tue Nov 25, 2014, 09:17 PM

Iggo (46,624 posts)

20. Obvious point is obvious. (n/t)

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Response to Oktober (Original post)

Tue Nov 25, 2014, 06:46 PM

gollygee (22,336 posts)

6. So the guy who kills his stepson gets off without even a trial

and you think his words of anger should cause him to get arrested.

My God. You are a real work of art.

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Response to Oktober (Original post)

Tue Nov 25, 2014, 06:47 PM

BklnDem75 (2,918 posts)

7. Why? You want to arrest a grieving stepfather?

Encourage and stir up doesn't describe what he's doing, so you're looking for legal definitions now?

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Response to Oktober (Original post)

Tue Nov 25, 2014, 06:49 PM

azmom (5,208 posts)

9. No

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Response to Oktober (Original post)

Tue Nov 25, 2014, 06:50 PM

msanthrope (37,549 posts)

10. Incitement to precisely what? nt

 

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Response to Oktober (Original post)

Tue Nov 25, 2014, 07:02 PM

Ykcutnek (1,305 posts)

13. Nope, no more illegal than ignorance and lack of compassion. nt

 

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Response to Ykcutnek (Reply #13)

Tue Nov 25, 2014, 07:06 PM

gollygee (22,336 posts)

14. Lot of that going around. n/t

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Response to Oktober (Original post)

Tue Nov 25, 2014, 07:19 PM

Star Member Spazito (47,330 posts)

17. Are you hoping that might happen? n/t

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Response to Oktober (Original post)

Tue Nov 25, 2014, 07:23 PM

kelly1mm (4,468 posts)

18. See Brandenburg v. Ohio. Link below:

Last edited Tue Nov 25, 2014, 11:25 PM - Edit history (1)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio

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Response to Oktober (Original post)

Tue Nov 25, 2014, 08:35 PM

Iggo (46,624 posts)

19. I'll tell you two things that actually DID start a riot.

First, a white cop killed an unarmed black man in the street. That actually DID cause a riot.

Next, a grand jury was led by the nose by the DA to make sure there were no charges against that cop. That actually DID cause a riot.

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Response to Oktober (Original post)

Tue Nov 25, 2014, 09:24 PM

etherealtruth (22,165 posts)

22. The anguished cries of a parent (step parent) at hearing their child's murderer ....

... will not be held accountable for their actions probably does not rise to that level

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Response to etherealtruth (Reply #22)

Wed Nov 26, 2014, 03:33 AM

kelliekat44 (7,759 posts)

31. I love your sig line. nt

 

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Response to kelliekat44 (Reply #31)

Wed Nov 26, 2014, 10:44 AM

etherealtruth (22,165 posts)

34. Thank you! n/t

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Response to Oktober (Original post)

Wed Nov 26, 2014, 03:31 AM

The Straight Story (48,121 posts)

30. Well, since shooting an unarmed teen isn't considered murder I guess 'incitement' isn't what you

think it is either, eh?

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Response to The Straight Story (Reply #30)

Wed Nov 26, 2014, 03:47 AM

Oktober (1,488 posts)

32. You know that words have meaning right?

 

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Response to Oktober (Original post)

Wed Nov 26, 2014, 04:40 AM

Leopolds Ghost (12,875 posts)

33. Oktober... What qualifies as involuntary manslaughter...? a la "he looked like a demon"...

I'm just asking because I know of cases in stand-your-ground states where a white man was given life without parole for shooting a charging, unarmed white person in self-defense because they were afraid of bodily harm.

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Response to Leopolds Ghost (Reply #33)

Wed Nov 26, 2014, 10:44 AM

Oktober (1,488 posts)

35. My guess is the basis for the initial interaction plays a large role...

 

IOW, a regular Joe Blow citizen has no right or authority to stop or detain or really interact with you in a way that could impede your progress moving from point A to point B. If that leads to a conflict then the fault can be with the initiator...

In contrast, a law enforcement official does have the right and even the requirement to intervene when a law is broken, which started with the walking in the street and then lead to the escalation and eventual shots.

I base all of that on my extensive layman's knowledge and what I picked up from TV.... Take with two monstrous grains of salt...

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