Christmas questions: How did it EVER become acceptable in this country...

[Ken Burch]

...for the wealthy to presume to judge the "morality" and "character" of the poor?

...for even man of the not-wealthy-but-still-under-the-delusion-that-they-someday-will-be-wealthy to assume that wealth is acquired in direct proportion to virtue and rectitude?

...for so many of those who are lucky enough to be at least financially comfortable day-to-day to simply decide that the poor, essentially, stopped being human at some point...stopped being worthy of respect and fellow feeling of any sort?

And why does all of this happen even on a day like today, on which the birth of the person Christians see as the Savior, a person who himself was raised in poverty, is celebrated?

[Spider Jerusalem]

1. It always has been, since the beginning

go and read about Calvinism sometime. If you're poor it's because you're lazy and idle and sinful and wicked; if you're wealthy it's a sign of god's grace and favour and a reward for your piety and industry.

[Sweeney]

18. I call that tangible justification. If there is a better name for it please let me know.

What the protestants often found is that their members growing wealthy soon neglected virtue and moved to greater profit.

[Spider Jerusalem]

21. "Predestination of the elect" (those not among the elect were "reprobates").

And Protestantism isn't Calvinism, although Calvinism is a form of Protestantism.

[roguevalley]

41. agreed. he as born, lived in, helped, died for the poor.

His movement was called the way of the poor ... That last part was dropped from usage today and was tortured to death for what he did. If you hate he poor you hate him. Tell them that.

[Jesus Malverde]

2. Puritan work ethic

The Protestant work ethic (or the Puritan work ethic) is a concept in theology, sociology, economics and history which emphasizes hard work, frugality and diligence as a constant display of a person's salvation in the Christian faith, in contrast to the focus upon religious attendance, confession, and ceremonial sacrament in the Catholic tradition.

The phrase was initially coined in 1904 by Max Weber in his book The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism.

Goes back to before we were even a nation.

[swilton]

10. Nail meets hammer

[Sweeney]

19. Good book, read it. Got it.

[jwirr]

3. In modern times: Jimmy Bakker, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and their idol Ronald Reagan.

But originally Calvinism was imported from Europe and their doctrine of double predestination encourages that type of thinking. They believe that God loves the good people and that is reflected in their riches. On the other side they believe that God punishes the wicked by poverty. A double destiny.


Never occurred to them that God might expect us to be our brother's keepers in the sense that we would help them when they are down.

[Ken Burch]

4. Reagan(in a speech in liberal Olympia, Washington, of all places)

Actually said that people should NOT be expected to be their "brother's keeper"s.

Said that in 1967.

[jwirr]

6. Thank you. His speech on the value of greed and hate. Imagine what we would be if that man had

shut his mouth up.

[world wide wally]

9. "I am not my brother's keeper" was first said by history's first murderer, Cain, to cover up the

fact that he had killed his brother while they were away from home and only one returned.

[jwirr]

38. Of course but that did not make it wrong. His murdering ways did. What he said was fact - he did

NOT take care of his brother. He was convicting himself.

[truebluegreen]

11. I've always considered Mormonism another step down that same road:

Riches are the measure of a man's worth in God's eyes, and if he (but not she) piles up enough wealth, he becomes a god himself and gets his own planet.

In that, it is a profoundly American religion...and makes it very easy to see where rMoney's vulture capitalism springs from.

[jwirr]

39. I would guess that somewhere in the Morman roots there was a deep connection to Calvinism. I

have never bothered to research it.

[appalachiablue]

16. Even regular people who are alright financially show indifference or outright contempt

for those less fortunate. They always find justifications for not helping. People- should have planned better, not fallen for subprime loans, worked harder, are not smart, are lazy, etc. And remember going back to RR and Bush Sr. how churches and charities were supposed to help, not govt. services.

[sweetapogee]

24. it's almost as if to say

want to have everything you need money wise? Get on board with their religion, whatever that may be. I know it's not what you are thinking, but what is the opposite of what you are saying?

Take care,
SA

[Sweeney]

22. What they believe, Jesus never said.

Jesus was no labor leader, and yet he never suggested that the injustice the poor suffered had any thing to do with immorality. Rather, he said the rich have their reward. Jesus never told people to revolt against the power structure, but when he attacked the money trading he attacked the whole crooked structure of the temple hierarchy.

No one could offer any but the coin of Israel. People coming from great distances had foreign coin. Okay; we swap you out here on the temple steps, and you take a beating, and go make your offering. Do you think it ever occurred to anyone but Jesus that the coin going in was circulated out and sold at a profit the next day? The priests got their cut. The money changers got their cut, the customer took a beating and so did God.

Jesus may have consider God in truly cosmic proportions, and as with Job, having the power to make up any injury; but he was no dummy. In all but John, that was the end of Jesus, the final act of his ministry. You simply cannot mess with the money.

That story of the Good Samaritan tells what Jesus thought of the priests. They walked around the injured man to keep from having their source of income disrupted. The Samaritan did far more than help him when he was down. He cared for the man, and not only in a financial sense, but in the sense of caring as love.

[treestar]

5. One quibble, I don't think the wealthy do that so much as the

not-wealthy-but-still-under-the-delusion-that-they-someday-will-be-wealthy middle class. They seem to overlook that they must not be virtuous enough to be rich as of yet. Or they are smug in their comfort at the level they are at and don't want to help the less fortunate.

[Sweeney]

23. Public Charity is a reflection of private caring.

These religious people who do not want to support immorality do have a point. I don't want to support war or the death penalty. What they think is that immorality causes poverty, and the facts are just the opposite. Poverty causes immorality. And if they think christians or their churches can do the job of the government in trying to protect people from the extremes of poverty why don't they try. They are happy to help a neighbor having a rough time; but they do not get all the many thousands who will starve, do starve, will freeze and do freeze as a result of government supported poverty. They would be doing a good work just to get out of the way.

They make a big deal about hating the sin and loving the sinner. I think the facts are more often that they love the sin, and envy the sinner, and so hate them for being so free. How much of sin does anyone rational actually believe any sinner enjoys?

[Dont call me Shirley]

30. Great wealth is a direct result of immense immorality.

[Sweeney]

35. No doubt

And their behavior is de-moralizing to the rest of society.

[former9thward]

7. Christ was not raised in poverty.

He was the son of Joseph, a carpenter, a skilled worker. Nothing suggests they were in poverty relative to the rest of their society.

[delrem]

12. He did, however, have something to say about the poor and marginalized.

I suppose that should count for something when remembering his works.

[Sweeney]

15. By the time of John's Gospel

It is not the poor who shall inherit the earth, but the poor of spirit. Quite a switch, really.

[delrem]

20. Well, y'know, I don't really give a shit.

I think most who've read the thing have a clue about what it says.

[Sweeney]

26. Bible history is more fascinating than the Bible itself.

James the Brother of Jesus by Eisenman really pulls a lot of it together. I have been looking at the subject for a long time; but not sure some times why I bother.

[yodermon]

37. i just googled that book, which I'd never heard of, and am now planning or reading it.

*That's* why you bother.

[Sweeney]

47. One of the few books I ever made time to read twice.

I have his book on the Dead Sea Scrolls as well. The guy, and perhaps many more have apparently been Jerked around on access to archaeological material, and it is for some political reason. But he is not always sanguine about it.

[Ken Burch]

27. This song seems fitting

(can't find a video to link to a performance of it, but the amazing English a cappella traditional singer Frankie Armstrong has recorded it:



ANTI-CAROL
(John Pole)

It weren't no picnic
It weren't no picture post card
It was cold as 'taters in the mould
When the couple come lookin' for a room
Cold shouldered they were when the landlords looked at her
And saw the baby in her womb
Cold comfort they got
Was there a room? There was not
The town was crowded for a start
And it was cold, cold. cold, cold
Cold as a beggar boy's heart

It could have been in Jo'burg, Detroit. Chittagong, Calcutta
So long since it happened
I'm wrong! It happened yesterday
It happens now more and more...
Then somebody said he could lend them a shed
Crashing down on the floor
Just concrete and iron and a blanket to lie on
They'd been walkin' all day
And their home was such a long, long, long. long
Long way away

They never heard no angels
Just the big police siren
When the light come fumblin' through the night
Her waters broke. the kid begun to come
"Is there a doctor?" "No fear,
Only poor people here
What would you pay him with,. chum?"
There war ice on the door.
she sweated, he swore
He saw the head of his child
And then together him and her
Helped it into the world

There weren't no cattle watching
Just a rat and twenty cockroach
The kid cried. his dad soon had him washed and dried
When his mother woke she give him breast
He shared his parents' love
And he was heir to their poverty
It war all they possessed
And then the rumors got 'round
There were soldiers in town
With orders "Search and Destroy"
They didn't want to get wasted
They left town a bit hasty
The man, his wife and their boy. boy, boy, boy
Young wife and new baby boy

He was theirs they made him
Out of love. hope. and suff'ring
God's son? Or just another one!
More like millions born to slave. starve. and die
Oh p'raps when he grows and sees how the world goes
He'll help to change it by and by
Let's hope the soldiers don't hang this new son of man
Like they done one before ...
Will he bring peace or a gun?
When his kingdom does come
It'll belong to the poor. poor, poor, poor.
The homeless and poor

[Sweeney]

25. There was a class of people descended from Phineas

mostly, Aaron grandson who cleansed the camps and killed backsliders. Who would not till the soil, and this may have been the Nazirites, not to be confused with Nazareth who survived by trades Like Potter, as in potters field, and carpantry and stone cutting. In a land where no money was had, where the whole of the National wealth was left in the city of Jerusalem for the Romans to take, no one could say Joseph or Jesus were even better off. If we did not have funny money liquefying our economy we would all be in the same leaky boat as those people.

[NewDeal_Dem]

33. They stayed in a stable because they couldn't afford an inn. and jews were under the

subjugation of rome, i.e. second-class citizens.

just because joseph was a carpenter doesn't mean he was 'middle class'.

[Lars39]

36. The inns were full, no place left but the stables, iirc.

Wasn't a matter of money.

[former9thward]

40. There was a census going on which was why Joseph was in Bethlehem.

The inns were full because of it. Nothing in the Bible about them not be able to "afford an inn". What class was Joseph the carpenter? Who exactly was "middle class" in those days?

[Mariana]

43. There were also all those expensive gifts from the wise men. nt.

[Posteritatis]

44. Which really kinda says something about how we treat a lot of tradesmen these days

I spent some time working (on the office side of things) for a construction/restoration company; while most of the people on the hammerswingy side of things were earning okay wages/benefits (for my neck of the woods' COL, relative to other companies in the field here, and so on), I always felt they were getting less than their training/skills/working conditions warranted. Tried going to bat for them a couple of times but it never got anywhere.

You're absolutely right in that nothing suggests they were in poverty - carpentry, especially fine/finish carpentry like the language suggests Joseph was into - was at least a decent uppermiddleclass-ish life. What's telling is that we've gotten together some sort of worldview in which that kind of life was clearly just menial labour indicative or deserving of poverty, regardless of whether there actually was any in the family's life back then. That's just not okay, especially since the attitude tends to encourage the actual fact.

[former9thward]

45. In those days skilled manual labor was something people aspired to.

Young men would seek out apprenticeships knowing they would be set for life once they learned the skill. In today's western society we do not have much of that anymore. Companies in the Midwest beg graduating high schoolers to consider becoming machinist apprentices (a very well paid job) but have very few takers.

[elleng]

8. 'wealth is acquired in direct proportion to virtue and rectitude'

came with early 'immigrants,' Puritans, I think.

http://www.apuritansmind.com/stewardship/rykenlelandpuritansandmoney/

[Sweeney]

17. Actually, tangible justification,

or what ever the educated call it; the idea that God shows his favors for those he loves in a tangible fashion is a U-turn that protestantism took in the direction of Judaism. But you can see the danger here. If you believe wealth is proof of virtue and that virtue warrants the love of God, there is still the desire to have the proof of justification in wealth while the fact of virtue is neglected. I am not the only one to have reached this conclusion. Paul took Christianity away from Judaism, and Luther, while expressing great hatred of the Jews brought Christianity closer to Judaism than they had been for well over a thousand years.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

13. Wealthy people focus on the "king of kings" crap....

They believe Jesus was of royal blood and tried to get poor people (who are just another bunch of sinners) to "see the light".

[Dont call me Shirley]

31. +1

[Sweeney]

14. Honestum is moral good

And where money is honor poverty is dishonor.

In honor societies as opposed to money societies, if some one takes your stuff they take your honor, and if you don't take it back you have no honor, and are trash anyone can kick around, and so, useless in the company of free men.

What are we supposed to do then when the rich have stolen our whole commonwealth. We have run out of cheeks to turn. And you know the same thing happened in Judea. People were suing each other for their tunics and Jesus said offer them your pants too. The place was poor, squabbling over pennies, and sons were neglecting the care of their parent to give money to the temple.

All the money was in Jerusalem, enough for triumphs and the Colosseum which was a huge 40 year building project. There was plenty of money and the rich who where also in league with the priests had it all. Like Marx said, and I think quoting another: High profits are synonymous with glut. When all the wealth is in the hands of the rich, you have no economy.

[AZ Progressive]

28. In other words you can't make many Americans reason, because it's their religious or cultural belief

Move to another country if you want to be with better people.

[Sweeney]

49. Like Erasmus told Luther:

I'll leave my church when I find a better one.

[Dont call me Shirley]

29. The biggest "secret" about Christmas is that we are all miracles. Life is miraculous.

We are our own savior.

When those who still believe in the incorrect mindset that they are more special than others stop believing that nonsense, then we can arise in consciousness together.

[Sweeney]

50. Shirley you want to be my friend.

People say we are created equal, and work for inequality. I wasn't created at all. My life is the same life as in a snail or a falcon. It was given as a gift, and I pass it as a treasure; and even while I some times feed on death, I honor all life. It is remarkable thing, as you say, a miracle. As in the story of Job; only I have survived to tell you. Think of by what rare chance we come to be where so many perished along the way.

[Dont call me Shirley]

51. Surely. :-)

The main problem to solve in order to save ourselves, other species and our planet is: What can we do/how can we help all the people on the planet perceive all life as sacred and miraculous?

Honor all life. All life is here now, therefore all life is sacred.

[Sweeney]

53. Like I told my grandaughter

If some one offers you a choice between saving humanity or saving a frog, save both. It doesn't matter if it's impossible. We do the impossible all the time. We seem to have more trouble with the possible.
Best to ya.

[WinkyDink]

32. Since about 1517.

Last edited Fri Dec 26, 2014, 04:32 PM - Edit history (1)

[Manifestor_of_Light]

34. Pete Townshend said it this way:

If I told you what it takes to reach the highest high,
You'd laugh and say nothing's that simple.
But you've been told many times before,
Messiahs pointed to the door,
No one had the guts to leave the temple.

--"I'm Free" from Tommy, 1969.


Did you hear the stuff that Krishna said?
Or know for you that Jesus' blood was shed?
Is it in your heart or in your head?
Or does the truth lay in the centre spread?

--Jools and Jim, album Empty Glass, Pete Townshend, 1981.

[JEB]

42. How did it become acceptable?

The same way torture became patriotic. Willful blindness, ignorance and maliciousness.

[Orsino]

46. Swift's "A Modest Proposal" did not invent the meme.

Money and power always equate themselves with virtue to justify their rule.

The equation of poverty with sin is usually left as an exercise for the reader, but in times like these pundits can't afford subtlety.

[Sweeney]

48. The funny thing about Swift's satire is that so many educated people took it seriously.

If you eat the food that keeps a child alive, and all through the potato famine Ireland exported food to England, then you may as well eat the child. The question is always the same: How do you get through to people so dense that they will make no effort to understand. If there were money in it they would understand. No money, and you could explain it a million times and they will say hunh?; sorry, I don't get it.

[True Blue Door]

52. Aren't you sort of surrendering to the very viewpoint you would fight?

By claiming that the attitudes of the rich are definitive of "this country," aren't you in essence conceding that their opinions are the only ones that matter?

I haven't seen much evidence that attitudes toward the poor are hardening among the majority - quite the opposite. That doesn't mean we've regained the "all for one and one for all" ethos of the New Deal generation, certainly, but the kind of smug douchebags that ran rampant in the '80s are not so common now that even millionaires are being pauperized by billionaires.